English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

12:46 AM

1

No norte de Portugal costumamos usar sapatilhas quando referimos calçado de desporto. Já no sul usa-se a palavra ténis. Qual das duas opções está correta? Estão as duas? Já agora o que se usa no Brasil?

Cerberus

1:10 AM

@tchrist Wow, that's funny.

That they should use that word.

tchrist

Indeed.

Cerberus

And that it should be regionally confined.

tchrist

I don't know whether the south here means Lisbon or the Algarve.

Well, no; I know that the Algarve is the south coast.

Cerberus

In Italy, Rome is just in the north.

In Belgium, Brussels is naturally in the north, but it has been culturally southernised.

In Holland, every garden is neatly fenced off and raked over, so we don't have this problem.

The rivers delimit the south.

tchrist

1:23 AM

@Cerberus Which problem?

Cerberus

@Mitch I would just call it a way of shortening phrases by turning them into (incorrect) single words. Being found in violation of the law and going to interviews don't seem to have a lot in common.

@tchrist The problem of an unclear boundary between the north and the south.

tchrist

@Cerberus By raking your yards you delimit north from south?

> SWR: What's the word for shortening phrases by turning them into (incorrect) single words?

Cerberus

1:40 AM

It is a metaphor: Dutchmen like everything neat.

No unkempt gardens.

So even the boundary between such vague regions as north and south must be strictly delimited.

tchrist

2:08 AM

looks for a Dutch maid

Cerberus

The Belgian-Dutch border.

Færd

2:55 AM

It sometimes appears to me that adjectives take the job of adverbs. For example, I don't think these are real adjectives:

> A is faster, but B runs a better marathon.

> I won this game, but you played a smoother Ping-Pong.

> They fired me and hired someone who slices a better cheddar. As if it requires great skill!

tchrist

3:28 AM

@Cerberus Looks the border between the States and Mexico, or France and Italy, or Switzerland and France, ~~or Spain and Morocco.~~

tchrist

3:55 AM

> 1530, from Dutch boel ‎(“lover, brother”), from Middle Dutch boel, boele ‎(“brother, lover”), from Proto-Germanic *bōlô (compare Middle Low German bōle ‎(“brother”), Middle High German buole ‎(“brother, close relative, close relation”), German Buhle ‎(“lover”)), diminutive of expressive *bō- ‎(“brother, father”). More at boy.

@Færd Sure they are. Do please remember that better is the comparativve degree both of the adverb well and of the adjective good too.

A good idea, a better idea, the best idea.

Playing a smoother game is interesting, but still an adjective. Playing smoother would be an adverb though.

Færd

They are technically adjectives alright. But slicing a better cheddar to me means slicing cheddar better.

It's not about the quality of the cheese, in that context.

The same with other examples.

tchrist

No argument here.

He makes a tastier brew.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... what do you think about something like They hire James because he can write better code?

Færd

@tchrist That's an adjective.

@DamkerngT. That too.

Damkerng T.

For me, there's definitely a better ping-pong, or a smoother ping-pong.

I have no idea about cheddar, though.

Færd

4:07 AM

Since the store has but one type of cheddar, slicing a better cheddar doesn't make much sense, unless it means slicing better cheddar.

Suppose that it's about guy who serves/sells cheese and things and is fired from a store.

Got that from a TV show.

Damkerng T.

Oh!

tchrist

They probably just liked the rhyme. :)

Færd

Maybe!

What about A runs a better marathon than B?

That doesn't make sense to you too?

Or the Ping-Pong one?

Cerberus

5:15 AM

@tchrist Or between the city of New York and the surrounding countryside (so my friend says)?

@Færd But that is about meaning, not syntax. And the term adverb is mainly about syntax, not meaning.

@Færd You're interpreting this very literally. A marathon can be long because it is 42km, but it can also be good if people like a particular marathon.

There is something unusual about the meaning of good/better in this context, but I don't think the syntax is unusual, so it's just an adjective.

There is also something like a predicative adjective, which is an adjective syntactically, but semantically it resembles the typical function of adverbs.

But it's still technically an adjective.

Examples:

> She arrived first.

> She became mad.

> She left panting.

> She was painted black.

Lawrence

7:07 AM

@KitZ.Fox I've had similar when sitting with poor posture - the ears are supposed to line up vertically with the shoulders, but I find myself with chin jutting out, head forward. If that describes your posture, I can share some stretches I found helpful.

Lawrence

8:45 AM

@Dawn I suspect violated is a reference to (the title of) the document served on the person who violated the regulation. This is similar to saying that someone charged with DUI has been DUI-ed. However, If this is what you're referring to, I'll post an answer. One might call this a synecdochic verbing or verbed synecdoche, but that's just a phrase I made up.

Færd

9:41 AM

@tchrist I slept and woke up, and the cheddar example doesn't make as much sense as it did before. (Ugh, the illusion of language instinct.) But the other two are still interesting to me.

@Cerberus Right. I should've said "to me, these adjectives say more about the verb/action".

@Cerberus Yes, and they are always unattributive. And, I guess, they describe the state of the subject, object, etc., and not directly the action. So their semantic task is more like adjectives. But in I play a smoother Ping-Pong than you, the adjective is describing my way of playing Ping-Pong, not a special type of Ping-Pong I play, and not a particular occasion that I'd call a smooth Ping-Pong game.

Færd

9:54 AM

And I'm an NNS, so It's not like I'm asserting this as fact. Just seems plausible to me.

tchrist

1:14 PM

I just saw a bobcat.

Anonymous

Wow!

tchrist

First one I've ever seen in the wild.

Thought #1: My what a big kitty that is. Thought #2: What happened to his tail? Thought #3: OH!!!

dailycamera.com/news/boulder/ci_29122329/…

> "They're not really a conflict animal," Churchill said. "People don't tend to freak out cause they're so small and cute."

In comparison to what, a mountain lion or black bear? Maybe. But she was way bigger than a regular domestic housecat.

Did you know that a bobcat is really a Red Lynx?

Bobcat

The bobcat (Lynx rufus) is a North American cat that appeared during the Irvingtonian stage of around 1.8 million years ago (AEO). Containing 12 recognized subspecies, it ranges from southern Canada to central Mexico, including most of the continental United States. The bobcat is an adaptable predator that inhabits wooded areas, as well as semidesert, urban edge, forest edges, and swampland environments. It remains in some of its original range, but local populations are vulnerable to extirpation by coyotes and domestic animals. The bobcat is vital for controlling pest populations. With a gray...

> There had been debate over whether to classify this species as Lynx rufus or Felis rufus as part of a wider issue regarding whether the four species of Lynx should be given their own genus, or be placed as a subgenus of Felis.[5][6] The Lynx genus is now accepted, and the bobcat is listed as Lynx rufus in modern taxonomic sources.

> Johnson et al. reported Lynx shared a clade with the puma, leopard cat (Prionailurus), and domestic cat (Felis) lineages, dated to 7.15 million years ago (mya); Lynx diverged first, approximately 3.24 million years ago.[7] The bobcat is believed to have evolved from the Eurasian lynx, which crossed into North America by way of the Bering Land Bridge during the Pleistocene, with progenitors arriving as early as 2.6 million years ago.[6]

I estimate this one was at least thirty pounds, based on how much bigger it was than my grandparents’ Maine coon at twenty.

Cerberus

1:34 PM

@Færd How about a Ping-Pong = a manner of playing Ping-Pong.

That's more or less what it means here.

And, again, this seems to be all about semantics (meaning), not syntax (construction).

The words adjective and adverb are about syntax.

tchrist

> Ever since I was a young boy,
I've played the silver ball.
From Soho down to Brighton
I must have played them all.
But I ain't seen nothing like him
In any amusement hall...

That deaf, dumb and blind kid
Sure plays a mean pinball!

NVZ

what-if.xkcd.com/12

tchrist

@Færd If the kid plays a mean pinball, would that mean he plays mean?

> precipitable

Cerberus

1:52 PM

@NVZ Haha nice.

Fiksdal

3:26 PM

Hey guys, I just posted a question about English etymology in the Linguistics SE. I may need some expertise from this SE to come over and have a look: linguistics.stackexchange.com/questions/17468/…

Færd

@tchrist I doubt whether that's an acceptable stretch of this construction, but if it were, then maybe yes.

@Cerberus Well, that helps my case in a way. :) I'm okay with that interpretation.

@tchrist :))

Fiksdal

@NVZ That one was awesome.

PhMgBr

3:47 PM

@Fiksdal If you posted on Linguistics, why do expect ELU people to answer? O_o

Cerberus

@Fiksdal Answered!

@PhMgBr Because we can.

PhMgBr

@Cerberus I mean, why not post it on ELU itself? Isn't etymology on-topic here?

Færd

@tchrist And if mean were an adverb too...

Cerberus

@PhMgBr Well, a handful of people on EL&U really like closing questions that they see as off topic, and you need only 5 people to close a question, and there is nothing other people can do to prevent this.

PhMgBr

@Færd I meant "greedy" by "mean" up there, surely.

Færd

3:52 PM

looks

When did you say mean?

PhMgBr

Mean.

Just about now.

Færd

:-)

crl

@KitZ.Fox a nice one

hard to pass the minute

Fiksdal

Yeah, I was contemplating posting it here.. I even made a meta post about it.

@PhMgBr I didn't expect anyone to answer... But I always like to stay optimistic and hope someone might :) As it turns out, someone did :)

PhMgBr

Yay

Cerberus

4:02 PM

Chat often helps to get more answers.

Fiksdal

@PhMgBr Linguistics is still in beta, and doesn't have as many users as English SE

PhMgBr

13 mins ago, by PhMgBr

@Cerberus I mean, why not post it on ELU itself? Isn't etymology on-topic here?

I imagine you could write like a lawyer so they couldn't close it.

Fiksdal

@PhMgBr Here is my question about that: meta.english.stackexchange.com/questions/7977/…

PhMgBr

NVZ

4:15 PM

@Fiksdal you say you live in India on your profile. Are you still here? :)

Fiksdal

@NVZ Yeah. I live here.

u2?

crl

who doesn't live at their place (here)?

Fiksdal

haha.

NVZ

@Fiksdal me too, atm. But most of my life I've spent in the middle east

Fiksdal

OK

Are you Indian?

NVZ

4:17 PM

Indian, yes

my next plan is to move back to Abu Dhabi

crl

@snailboat what's a snail-boat?

Anonymous

@crl news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/10/pictures/…

crl

ah:), interesting, hopefully they don't get eaten by some fish/bird

or caught in an ocean area (like the one in Pacific, where all garbages converge)

PhMgBr

@crl chat.stackexchange.com/users/49844

Cerberus

4:33 PM

@snailboat Magnificent!

Now I know what it looks like.

I knew some snails preyed upon those jellyfish, but not like this?

Wenteltrap is Dutch!

PhMgBr

Snails are indeed amazing.

Even when they're an SE mod.

Cerberus

A wenteltrap.

@PhMgBr Even?

PhMgBr

Odd

Mitch

Odd when they are an SE mod

PhMgBr

I still don't understand people here.

crl

5:18 PM

it looks like a stairs trap, indeed

Cerberus

Yes, trap means stairs.

Færd

Some people pronounce flatter (and some other words with a vowel after /t/) with a little /h/ (a tiny exhalation) after /t/. Is it regional? Is there a rule about this /tʰ/ sound?

crl

in the Caribbeans, "three" was(still is I think) 'trrree' :)

Anonymous

@Færd It's not an /h/, it's an [ʰ] :-) You can write [tʰ] but /tʰ/ doesn't make sense in English since it's non-phonemic.

Færd

@crl Yes. The rough /r/ exist in some English dialects as well.

Anonymous

5:32 PM

I'm not sure who pronounces it that way. In American English, we usually flap that /t/.

Færd

But you have heard it pronounced that way, right?

Anonymous

You mean like, in abnormally careful pronunciation?

Færd

Yes.

Anonymous

I can't say that I've ever noticed it, but that doesn't mean I haven't heard it.

Færd

I don't even know how to look it up.

@snailboat Happy to learn that about /phonemic/ and [phonetic] transcriptions. :)

Cerberus

5:46 PM

@Færd Yes, that is the normal RP pronunciation of a voiceless occlusive at the beginning of a syllable. It is the same in e.g. terrain. Perhaps it is a bit more prominent between two vowels?

Færd

@Cerberus Wow. So it's not just limited to the [t] sound. Yes, perhaps.

Cerberus

Go to Forvo.com, search for pot, and compare the pronunciation of the English word as pronounced in England with the pronunciation of the Dutch word.

Færd

For example, the little exhalation after [t] exists in the US pronunciation here, and doesn't exist here‌.

@Cerberus Okay, cool. :)

Cerberus

@Færd Hmm there doesn't appear to be an English one from England.

Perhaps some other word, then.

Færd

I'll dig and see if something comes up.

Cerberus

5:51 PM

Maybe just listen to a number of words starting with a voiceless occlusive from England, then from Holland.

As pronounced by someone from that country (Forvo distinguishes between the language to which the word belongs, and the native language of the speaker).

Færd

OK.

Cerberus

It's not always easy to hear.

tchrist

@Færd I’m not sure you’re playing fair with that one.

Færd

I played mean.

tchrist

6:07 PM

That one you saw true.

Færd

6:29 PM

Heh. It did seem staged for me to reply cleverly.

Anonymous

7:19 PM

Anonymous

(Longman Pronunciation Guide)

Anonymous

@Færd Ping :-) Just making sure you see the image.

Anonymous

The pattern of aspiration is a little more complicated than what Cerberus said, I believe.

Cerberus

Oh, yes, I simplified, I was too lazy too look it up.

Although I'm not 100% sure Longman is correct.

PhMgBr

I've never been 100% sure about anything.

Anonymous

7:35 PM

@Cerberus Well, I can't say I'm 100% sure either, but John Wells is one of the foremost experts on English phonetics, so he does tend to get things right.

Cerberus

Tony Blair vs. John Major - "Weak, weak, weak!"

►

> He entered the house...

Anonymous

That doesn't mean there isn't room for discussion, just that his writings tend to be a good reference :-)

Cerberus

Don't you hear some sort of aspiration in the t?

And the t in later 10 seconds after that.

Anonymous

It looks like, according to his rules, it should be unaspirated or slightly aspirated.

Anonymous

Grab the audio and load it into Praat?

Anonymous

7:38 PM

What's the VOT?

Cerberus

But it sounds aspirated, and that is also how I am used to pronouncing it.

VOT?

Praat? That means talk in Dutch?

Anonymous

Voice onset time. The thingy you use to distinguish between different levels of aspiration.

Anonymous

Praat

Praat (the Dutch word for "talk" or "speak") is a free scientific computer software package for the analysis of speech in phonetics. It was designed, and continues to be developed, by Paul Boersma and David Weenink of the University of Amsterdam. It can run on a wide range of operating systems, including various versions of Unix, Linux, Mac and Microsoft Windows (95, 98, NT4, ME, 2000, XP, Vista, 7, 8). The program also supports speech synthesis, including articulatory synthesis. Praat is one of the most widely used programs among linguists. == Version history == == External links == Praat: doing...

Cerberus

I don't know it, phonetics are not my speciality hehe.

Anonymous

Okay, I'll do it later when I'm at my other computer :-)

Cerberus

7:41 PM

Oh, it's not important!

The British parliament is so noisy and unruly.

Is it charming? Is it outrageous?

Færd

8:33 PM

@snailboat What a detailed explanation! Thank you! :-)