English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

7:24 AM

"way off" means "no" or "yes"?

- is still sex out of table?
- way off

7:42 AM

@stack If your answer is way off, you're too far from the right answer.

7:53 AM

:D

Sᴋᴜʟʟ ᴘᴇᴛʀᴏʟ

the target is the right answer and you are "way off" from that answer

means: "no"

9:51 AM

@Sᴋᴜʟʟᴘᴇᴛʀᴏʟ ah ok

Should I do that by other way

or

Should I do that in other way

Which one?

neither.

Should I do that the other way?

oh. ok thx

@MattE.Эллен Yes.

Do it the other way

ok

9:55 AM

does it the other way

10:10 AM

@stack I'm assuming there is only one other way. If there is potentially more than two ways to do something you'd ask "Should I do that some other way" or "another way", because the is the definite article, so it means there is only one other way

Should I do that

the other way

(in) another way

some other way

"should I do that another way" is fine. there's no need for in, although that is grammatical

he's gone anyway

likewise you could, if you wanted, add in with the or some: "Should I do that in some other way"

@skillpatrol ah. oh well :D

@MattE.Эллен I was just going to edit that in

another way :-)

10:18 AM

I don't care what way you do it, just any other way than this

your way or the highway?

@skillpatrol just not your way :p

:P

@stack if you're learning about prepositions, then in pairs with way when talking about how to do things, but usually there is a determiner (e.g. the, some, a) between the preposition and the noun. "in the milk", "by that method", "in some way" when the noun is singular

you can skip the determiner for plurals, and with uncountables too. "on horses"

"in milk"

also when talking about things that could be considered plural or singular, like companies. "At Apple they don't wear ties."

as always, it's complicated and there are lots of exceptions

johnchae

12:05 PM

Hi

12:46 PM

Mornin.

2:20 PM

QWERTY rules our lives!

newscientist.com/article/…

wow that seems like total nonsense

not really

did they test their theory on any dvorak users?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Like much of social psychology...

@question_asker You're saying it makes sense that the way words are typed affects how people feel about them?!?

2:25 PM

I'm saying that the conclusion is in line with a lot of similar work on the way language influences people

I'm not saying it's particularly interesting, though

@Cerberus that's not really social psychology. it's not about the behaviour of groups as related to individuals. that's cognitive linguistic psychology, if I had to pigeon hole it

@question_asker Much of which is speculative or nonsense, though. Consider the Lana/lawyer paper.

aha, the old "social psychology is nonsense" canard

@MattE.Эллен All right, I'll rephrase that to "much of non-clinical psychology".

fantastic stuff

2:27 PM

> Other researchers who have studied the effect have suggested that the association may stem from the fact that words consisting of letters from the right of the keyboard are easier to type – given that there are fewer letters on that side for the right hand to cover.

Baron offers another possibility. The vowel sounds associated with letters on the right-hand side of the keyboard – “y”, “u”, “i” and “o” – are known to be linked with positive words and meanings. It could be that the sounds of the words, rather than the letters in them, are the key factor, she says. “We don’t put emotions in…

Even these two alternative explanations seem to make somewhat more sense.

@question_asker yeah except that most of it is. The experiments are frequently just crap. Sample sizes too small. Test subjects all university students. no control for cultural bias.

lol

@MattE.Эллен Let me rephrase that again: I'm sure there's also some good research being done. And part of the blame lies with newspapers, who exaggerate the claims. But still: one cannot trust certain kinds of psychology the same way one can trust e.g. chemistry or mediaeval history.

Yeah, you should trust chemistry alright

I can trust chemistry more than I can trust medieval history

"...part of the blame lies with newspapers, who exaggerate the claims." absolutely.

2:30 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 And two more factors: 1. often the observed effect is tiny, while the conclusions make bold claims. 2. They usually don't offer a robust, scientifically tested explanation of how the effect works, which i.m.o. makes the statistical correlation far less meaningful and useful.

@question_asker Why can't you trust mediaeval history?

It is a sound discipline, in my experience.

I recall a study once where they tried to prove that pink is a girl's colour and blue is a boy's colour because of genetics.

Haha.

It was so. fucking. stupid.

yes that is undeniably stupid

That sounds much like the Lana/lawyer paper.

2:32 PM

@Cerberus It depends on who is writing the history, and what their biases are

The mere fact that you can find a statistic correlation is but step 1, it doesn't mean you have found something meaningful or useful.

I mean, "history" is notoriously untrustworthy, broadly stated

Untrustworthy how?

History makes very few positive claims.

...

@question_asker Well, don't trust the judgement. Trust the facts.

2:34 PM

is that a joke question?

"facts"

No.

I mean, I can state some "facts" that will probably sound like facts to you.

but which are, in fact, entirely fictitious and only serve to promote my agenda

And?

...

@question_asker You're seeing a lot of conspiracy where there's none.

2:36 PM

"conspiracy" lol

You don't seem to be interested in a real discussion.

Historians don't claim to have "facts".

That is entirely unscientific and counter to the historical discipline.

"Trust the facts." - you, mere seconds ago

@question_asker no that was PhMgBr

Sorry

@question_asker That was me.

2:37 PM

@PhMgBr jinx

And well, maybe I should start defining "fact".

I don't care anymore.

The thing is, any scientific field can be distorted by bad practice, I think we can all agree

A historical paper will provide all the evidence that it uses. It will then give all its arguments in detail, leading to an interpretation.

I mean, look. It's uncontroversial to say that European-written history is full of questionable-to-outright-false claims

How so?

Not serious, academic history.

And, again: historians don't claim facts.

They present evidence, argumentation, and conclusions, for any reader to study.

A paper may reach a conclusion that you disagree with. That's fine. The essence of the paper is not about the conclusion, but about the argumentation and the evidence.

And the conclusion is not to be taken as a claim of "fact".

2:40 PM

lol

I suggest that you read a few serious papers on mediaeval history and read a bit more about the development of the discipline of history between 1780 and 2000.

If I'm being accused of 'not being interested in a real discussion' because I don't want to regurgitate the world's corpus of historiography to someone who is making broad (and naive!) claims about some standard that nonspecific historians supposedly all perfectly cleave to, then fine, you're right, I don't have the energy or time for that nor do I suppose anyone here does.

let's be honest. neither of you is baking up your claims with evidence, so this is really just throwing opinions around.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 @RegDwigнt farm2.staticflickr.com/1468/26602739112_f326c5ff71_h.jpg

@question_asker No, you are saying things like "lol" and "I mean, look. It's uncontroversial to say that European-written history is full of questionable-to-outright-false claims". That doesn't really help in a discussion, it is indirect and it doesn't really address what your interlocutor has said.

I have to go anyway.

2:45 PM

zzzzz

Again.

I thought you had to go?

@question_asker Sorry to be blunt, but this attitude comes off as a bit close to trolling.

2

I repeat: academic historians are not about making claims of fact; the essence of a paper is not its conclusion, but the evidence and its interpretation, the argumentation.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 troll vs troll

2:46 PM

@MattE.Эллен heh. I mean, it's fine if both parties are okay with that but not so good when they accuse each other of not arguing properly.

@PhMgBr like I said above - this isn't really something I can just type out into a chat box - if you don't believe that the canon of western history is ... imperfect, to say the least, then... you haven't really read enough history.

@question_asker Please show us something that is perfect.

You're right, I don't really want to go through what modern academics have been saying for ages, here, in a chatroom. Good work, you proved that I don't have infinite energy.

If you think a science like chemistry is perfect, I'm pretty ready to surprise you.

We could have a civilized, constructive discussion about that some day.

2:48 PM

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 That is awesome

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 It's dripping, even!

@MattE.Эллен Are you calling me a troll? Look at your own green face!

Or is that more orkish.

@PhMgBr I didn't say it was perfect, though I understand what you mean there - it's certainly closer to being what I'd call "reliable" than the western historical canon, is all.

@Cerberus I'm an Orc :þ

Grrrr.

Orcs are meta-trolls. we troll about trolls trolling

2:50 PM

haha

Makes sense.

from the same builder as the pizza

Also this:

Gotta admit, it's a pretty fun hobby.

Not as fun as reading books you don't understand though.

3:13 PM

@MattE.Эллен You're just shamelessly prodding for a response.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I am backing up a cake as we speak. Flour all over the keyboard, doncha know.

cake redundancy

@Mitch I just won't accept half-baked arguments.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I don't care how much people seem to like it, cookie dough is just plain wrong.

also a salmonella concern

some would call that trolling

me, I call it reasonable

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

►

3:23 PM

I never once used that word

or any words, for that matter

On the other hand, icing a cake is incontrovertible

or inconsequential

depending on context

or am i thinking of frosting?

icing in the old-timey gangster sense

that cake sleeps with the fishes now

Lawrence

Fishcake ... that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish. :)

I Sing The Body Electric- Fame

►

I've never seen fish at a protest

3:27 PM

@Mitch I feel ashamed you'd think that

this is all making me hungry for frosted fish

@MattE.Эллен my work is done.

@Mitch ah! so you're unemployed

!!

:o

or as MarkyMark likes to call it: you're a housewife

3:30 PM

:O

3:45 PM

I'm listening to 10 hours of "OMFG I Love You" followed by 10 hours of "What is Love?"

@KitZ.Fox Still can't think of that song without also thinking of gay porn.

I think of that story every time too. Plus I exaggerate the details and make it my friend instead of your coworker.

heh

"gay porn" is a bit of an exaggeration too. It wasn't porn, just dating site pics, some of them pretty risque or outright nude. But not really porn.

4:32 PM

So I did something awful to my shoulder/neck muscles. I can't get relief. Do you happen to know any magic for that?

@KitZ.Fox Is it general soreness in the area or a stabby pain? Does it change with moving your head/arm or mostly the same with movement?

@KitZ.Fox Anti-inflammatory, heat, lots of fluids.

It feels like regular muscle strain, but periodically I'm getting falling-asleep tingles or pinchiness into my elbow and pinkie on that side.

Like probably a muscle spasm.

Heat and massage made it worse the first day (this is day three).

Ice helps. Ibuprofen helps some.

But even with both of those, I can't seem to get comfortable.

ArtOfCode

@KitZ.Fox there are creams designed for muscle strains; try those. Worked for me when I did my shoulder last year.

depends on how bad. if it gets worse, doctor. could probably be relieved by PT, anti-inflammatory.

Whatever it is, WebMD will tell you you're going to die.

4:45 PM

@ArtOfCode Oh true. I forgot I have some kind of blue stuff from last year. I'll give that a try when I get home.

ArtOfCode

blue stuff eh? Sounds healthy.

At least I can still get drunk tonight if I use that stuff. I have a hot date.

@KitZ.Fox vick's vaporub?

woo!

@Mitch Maybe, but branded differently.

4:50 PM

@KitZ.Fox I'm pretty sure that you can get drunk off of it directly.

cut out the middle man so to speak

Shafizadeh

5:39 PM

"how can I set a default for function's parameter?"

or

"how can I set a default as function's parameter?"

?

I would say "How can I set a default for a function's parameter?", if I understand you correctly

Shafizadeh

yes correct. thx

user183836

6:22 PM

What do you all think here: english.stackexchange.com/questions/322534/…

user183836

6:37 PM

I don't understand what HotLicks is saying here: english.stackexchange.com/questions/322534/…

user183836

We can't ask about idiomatic uses of words?

Q: Why is "violated" being used as future perfect with a person as the object?

@Dawn No, you can. But you can't ask about technical jargon.

user183836

That wasn't a problem in the original question.

user183836

5

On Aviation StackExchange, I've seen these: I don't think you will be violated.. He was subsequently violated... Pilot [...] may now be violated for it. ... pilots have been violated... It seems in all of these cases "violated" is being used where I would have used "found in violation of reg...

verbs idioms terminology future-perfect

Of course you can ask about technical jargon. HotLicks is not saying the question itself is out of bounds.

user183836

6:38 PM

And the answer found a definition in the OED

user183836

Maybe I've phrased the question poorly

user183836

I'm not an English major

HotLicks is saying the unusual meaning of "violate" is only known or understood within a small subset of the population.

user183836

Yeah, and I'm wondering whether that type of idiomatic "inversion" (what I'm calling it) has a name

It's an interesting question.

user183836

6:40 PM

he/she just yelled at me and shut down my question

The question doesn't look closed to me.

user183836

I mean, metaphorically.... like telling me that i can't talk about meaning outside of the community that uses the word that way

user183836

that kind of "shut down"

user183836

like cut off discussion

@Dawn I understood HotLicks to be saying the meaning has no existence outside of the community ... not that you can't talk about this subject.

user183836

6:44 PM

@MετάEd I don't claim that it does. I'm asking if that jargon/idiomatic inversion has a name and as an aside, if there are other examples of this kind of inversion

The question seems fine to me but it's difficult to understand because it seems to rely on one example that is restricted to jargon contexts, and one example that is made up.

user183836

How can I improve it?

@Dawn I'm sure I have seen one or two other examples, but I cannot seem to beat them out of my head.

user183836

I can't come up with other examples, because I don't know what term to use to search for them :P

@Dawn Have some chocolate. It helps.

6:45 PM

@Dawn I'd suggest expanding the meaning of "violate" meaning "to be in violation", including the definition from the answer from the other question, and spell it out in full that this is a special usage. Then, if you have to rely on the made-up example, indicate that it is made up.

would "she was drunk" be an example of the same thing you're looking for?

user183836

oh maybe!

user183836

I will drink <-> I will be drunk

user183836

it's not quite the same

That is really a bizarre case

the violation thing

like somebody tried to apply 'a citation' -> 'write out a citation' -> 'cite' to the word violation

It's jargon, to be sure.

6:52 PM

Yeah

Yeah I have certainly never heard or otherwise come across anyone using it outside of a LE context

user183836

I've seen it on meme signs

(especially since the verb form in question here has a very different, very distinct meaning outside of that context; I'd venture to say that (non-LE) context meaning is infinitely more prevalent)

as in, I think the vast majority of people would be extremely confused if presented with it in the LE context

what-if.xkcd.com/11

poops

7:17 PM

@Dawn yeah, it's close though. The drink is drunk, the person is drunk... the person drinks the drink and is drunk. The pilot violates the rule and is violated.

user183836

7:29 PM

I don't get why it is so important to HotLicks that this usage is not standard. I think everyone agrees that it's non-standard.

user183836

Is there a way that I can ask this question that avoids putting so much attention on this non-standard usage?

user183836

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I'll try your approach to fixing the question.

ritwik sinha

LOL. Now i joined a chat channel especially for english enthusiasts and my english is shit.

welcome?

ritwik sinha

hi

anyone

7:34 PM

hello

hello

7:53 PM

@Dawn don't worry about it. We all get into our own intense questions sometimes. My reading of the situation is that he didn't realize the context you were asking in (the aviators weird usage) it wasn't so clear to me either.

@ritwiksinha just because we're enthusiastic doesn't mean we're good at it.

I'm neither!

Good!

@Dawn I think the question is clearer now after your edit. Upon reflection, I'm not sure the phenomenon will have a name... it seems to be pretty rare.

The pilot violated the rule -> The rule was violated, but also the pilot was violated.

I would love to see more examples of that, if there are some

it struck me as mega-idiosyncratic but I wouldn't be surprised if there are other situations it appears

...in.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are other examples, but it seems like it must be a rare case

7:59 PM

yeah

@Dawn hit licks did not shut down the discussion. He did bold 'not'. That's just emphasis. About a smallish point. Which you shouldn't worry about.

also I gotta say: as much as I understand this particular example and what it is meant to mean, I can't keep reading it without getting really uncomfortable.

My suggestions for labels for this are: 'error' 'passive dysvalence' 'subject-object-agent confusion' 'sub categorization reassignment' or some permutation combination of any or all. As to a single word, that's hardly ever going to happen.

@question_asker likewise. It just seems wrong.

at the risk of getting ~political~, it doesn't surprise me that this is a formulation that cops would use

8:05 PM

To your general point, I wouldn't be surprised if this is more common in the worlds languages. There's probably something in Latin (@Cerberus?)

Ablative absolute? No that's for nouns

Hortative? Nope that's for commands right?

user183836

@Mitch Whatever, he/she kept saying that I can't ask about this because they don't mean the same thing, then when I pointed out the other answer, he/she changed to "okay they mean the same thing but only in that jargon context", then when he/she said that this isn't a new definition and I said that the other answer said it was, he/she said that "well, it's marked as slag" (as if slang definitions aren't definitions)... it's like anything I say about this has to be countered or refuted by hotlick

@question_asker It wouldn't surprise me if this sort of thing appeared in places where a label gets attached to something to indicate a thing, but the name of the label gets associated with the labelling.

user183836

I don't know what the point of that was, it made me feel like there are some unknown rules I was breaking regarding adhering to prescriptive definitions

And I feel like there's an example there...

user183836

even said that it wasn't "proper english"

8:09 PM

Parole violations -> label the offender as "violated", label becomes verb, offender is "violated".... I swear there's another example like this that I cannot recall.

something like "John set off the alarm" -> "John alarmed"

Deponent verbs

That's the word for it.

user183836

oooh

user183836

nice

'violate' has an alternate usage both regular nad then in this technical jargon, a deponent syntax

so it is a thing but no mention of it in English.

It reminds me of 'I miss you' in Romance Languages. They say, eg 'tu me manques' literally 'you miss me' to mean 'I miss you'.

@Dawn I'll write up an answer

user183836

Thanks!

A: Does the "she was found in violation of..." <-> "she was violated" equivalence have a name?

8:29 PM

0

The phenomenon and label of the change is one thing, and the result is labeled another thing. In the specific community (of aviation; I don't think I've heard this at all before so I'm assuming it is limited to here), it is simply a change in syntax accompanied by semantic drift. The result, w...

8:39 PM

@Dawn I think he just wanted to be right

user183836

well, I did too I guess :P

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Cerberus @Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I thought it was pretty cool :)

Damkerng T.

Ah, you're in here. I probably didn't have to post my comment. :-) @Dawn

Anyway, your question makes me think of diathesis alternations. Now, the problem is I don't know them through and through.

A: Does the "she was found in violation of..." <-> "she was violated" equivalence have a name?

3

I think it’s an example of zero derivation. This means deriving one word from another while bypassing the usual derivation rule that involves adding a prefix or suffix. To illustrate zero derivation, here is an example from the exploding penguin sketch: Oh, intercourse the penguin. [Emphasis ...

I'd really like to have John Lawler look at this answer.

Because I can't actually find any examples of "zero derivation" being used to describe coining a verb from a verb.

sumelic

1

A: American refusal of the IPA: why?

Likely because IPA is a joke. In a standard non translation dictionary (i.e. not french to english) the native english speaker is using the book to conferm spelling and look up meaning. Accent is not a consideration. While written english is non phonetic compared with alphabets that use visual ac...

8:54 PM

Also I should really calculate the lawler weight of the answer.

user183836

9:22 PM

seems like hotlicks has support for that way of responding to me

Faheem Mitha

What is an economical way to say that the walls of a room are tiled with ceramic tiles?

The walls are ceramic tiled sounds a little clunky.

user183836

9:39 PM

"the ceramic-tiled walls..."

user183836

"The walls are tiled with ceramic."

ArtOfCode

the walls are ceramically tiled ;)