English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

12:15 AM

@Cerberus It's rude.

Cerberus

@tchrist So are many things that are charming.

tchrist

Name three.

Johan Larsson

this chat

Cerberus

@tchrist And you and I.

That makes three.

Our work here is done.

Johan Larsson

and your mom

Cerberus

12:22 AM

!

tchrist

Present company excepted.

Johan Larsson

gällivarevisan

Ali G?

maybe the last week tonight guy?

my dog Loke

maybe perl?

Cerberus

12:44 AM

All of the above?

SmokeDetector

1:23 AM

[ SmokeDetector ] Mostly non-Latin answer: Is this the correct sentence pattern? by user173029 on english.stackexchange.com …

Anonymous

Thanks, SmokeDetector.

Anonymous

1

Q: Is this the correct sentence pattern?

Pursuant to the third paragraph of Article 57 of the Statute, such appeals are subject to the same procedure as an application for interim measures made directly to the Court. Is the sentence pattern AdvSPOdCo?

Anonymous

AdvSPOdCo! Grammar in code.

Cerberus

Confusing!

@SmokeDetector That's bad, we should converse sola in lingua Latina.

crl

9:10 AM

in lingua franca

I ~~like~~ (oh he died:/, rip) how the guy isn't panicking

even if he didn't, it would have caused serious injuries, I'm stupid.

must be one of the worst way to die..

Ravel's Bolero recently fell under public domain

Shafizadeh

1:41 PM

Is this correct?

"All you need is a few senses of humor"

tchrist

Correct?

One either has a sense of humor or one does not have it.

Grammatically, it may well be correct, but it seems meaningless.

Shafizadeh

ah

why it is meaningless ?

tchrist

People have a sense of X. They do not have several senses of the same X.

For all X.

Shafizadeh

Ah, So it is correct?

"All you need is a little sense of humor"

tchrist

I don't know what correct means.

Shafizadeh

1:52 PM

Edited ^

tchrist

That, yes.

Now it's fine.

Shafizadeh

Ah ok thx

tchrist

Sure.

Shafizadeh

This room is in a top-level ... The most people in here are either moderator or super-reputation :-)

tchrist

Old users.

Shafizadeh

2:01 PM

yes

Cerberus

2:35 PM

A little sense of humour sounds a little bit odd to me, perhaps old-fashioned?

I'm not sure a sense can be little or large?

crl

2:56 PM

could you minimal there, but it may sound more sarcastic

tchrist

3:08 PM

@Cerberus I think it’s softening the blow.

But I don’t disagree with you.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector ] Few unique characters in body: Is this the correct sentence pattern? by Amon on english.stackexchange.com …

Cerberus

3:24 PM

@tchrist OK it is certainly better than a few.

Shafizadeh

4:38 PM

Is this correct?

"What you said compeletely makes no sense."

Cerberus

It is understandable, but it is unidiomatic.

Shafizadeh

How can I make it idiomatic?

Cerberus

To make sense is a fixed expression, and therefore you can't always modify it in a normal way (like with completely).

You can use at all after the expression: what you said makes no sense at all.

Or no sense whatsoever.

Shafizadeh

Ah ok thx :-)

Cerberus

So, to sum it up: you can normally modify adjectives or verbs with completely, but with some special expression that isn't possible, like to make sense.

Shafizadeh

4:50 PM

I see

Cerberus

Actually, there is another relevant rule in play here: you normally can't use completely with a negation (like no) if you simply want to emphasise the negation, which is what you wanted to do.

That is: not...completely means "almost, but not completely".

Shafizadeh

oh .. good point

Cerberus

> She did not completely finish the race = "she almost finished the race, but not completely".

Shafizadeh

Yeah ... got it

Cerberus

> She did not finish the race at all = "she did not come close to finishing the race", e.g. "she left the race shortly after the start".

OK good!

Shafizadeh

4:54 PM

thx

Cerberus

Perhaps there are exceptions.

Shafizadeh

in this website, there is a question plus some explanations. Are women really worse at parallel parking?. But I cannot find the answer. Are they or not? May please anybody tell me what is the answer in that website?

Anonymous

I don't see an answer there. They're using the question as an example of what will be discussed at the symposium the page is for.

Shafizadeh

oh .. thx

Anonymous

They've most likely chosen that example because it's a question that will grab everyone's attention.

Cerberus

5:01 PM

Yeah.

Are you planning to come to Holland?

Shafizadeh

Who? me?

Cerberus

Yes, to this symposium?

Shafizadeh

no:-)

I'm just trying to find the answer ... "Are men better than women at parking?"

Anonymous

Well, there's certain to be a very large inter-individual variation regardless of sex.

Shafizadeh

What you said means: maybe a women be better than a man and vice versa? (there isn't any rules)

Is there any answer here?

Cerberus

5:15 PM

Ah OK.

Maybe men are on average better at parking, but, even if that were true, there would be e.g. a 40% chance that a random woman you see at the parking lot will be better at parking than a random man.

Shafizadeh

oh, too bad :-)

Cerberus

Hah.

Shafizadeh

please show me a sentence with different (contrariwise) concept :-)

Cerberus

> Men were typically five per cent more competent at parallel parking - where the car draws alongside anther vehicle before reversing into a bay - according to research.
They were also better at driving head-on into a space and then reversing into place.

That's from your article.

A tiny difference.

And maybe it is only because men drive more often, or something like that.

Shafizadeh

very well, thx :-)

Keep these mind

5:22 PM

@Cerberus Just entering the chat and looking at the latest, I must say that I was surprised by 'women parking spots' in German parking lots.

Færd

Ladies first?

Cerberus

@Keepthesemind Yeah, it's funny.

Færd

Maybe to make sure they get parking space.

Keep these mind

@Færd With all the US issues with transgender toilet choices, this begs for further, similar isssues.

@Færd Nah, they really looked like the easy spots.

Shafizadeh

@Keepthesemind What? What happened? In German women don't allow (Legal) to do parking?

Cerberus

5:25 PM

Also well-lit spots close to the exit, in order to prevent assault.

Keep these mind

@Cerberus Ah! Didn't know.

Cerberus

@Shafizadeh No, there is no legal difference: men are allowed to park in the women's spots, and vice versa.

Shafizadeh

Ah ..

Keep these mind

@Cerberus Wut?

Cerberus

@Keepthesemind I've just read an article about it...

@Keepthesemind Yes. Or it might be considered discriminatory, I think.

It's just recommended.

Keep these mind

5:27 PM

@Cerberus So, why don't they call them 'easy spots' or 'safe spots' or whatever?

Cerberus

@Keepthesemind That's probably what I would do, yes.

Maybe calling them "women spots" discourages men from parking there more than would calling them "easy spots"?

Keep these mind

@Cerberus But you'd think that calling those 'women spots' is derogatory or something like that?

Cerberus

@Keepthesemind Yes, a little bit.

So which is the lesser evil?

Shafizadeh

It means men are better in driving or women?

"During the tests, in which volunteers were asked to repeatedly park a saloon car, psychologists found women didn't benefit from the extra 20 seconds they took to complete the manoeuvres on average. In fact, they tended to end up much closer to the edge of the bays than the male drivers, despite showing far more caution."

Keep these mind

@Cerberus They must have done some analysis. It sort of preys on gender inequality supposedly engrained in men.

Cerberus

5:32 PM

@Shafizadeh This means women were better at parking in the tests.

Shafizadeh

oh .. ok

Keep these mind

But then again, so is opening the door for a woman.

Cerberus

@Shafizadeh But there is a difference between natural ability and trained ability: perhaps men just drive more often, which gives them better training. So if women drove more, perhaps they would be just as good at parking as men.

@Keepthesemind I'm not entirely sure what you mean.

Færd

Calling them easy spots wouldn't prevent assault against women. Men's cars would swarm those spots. :)

Keep these mind

@Cerberus If it is not a legal thing, then what is it?

Shafizadeh

5:35 PM

@Cerberus I see. What about this? Men or Women?

"The scientists from Ruhr University in Bochum, Germany, concluded men benefit from superior co-ordination and spatial awareness because their brains can process the changing position and speed of a car quicker than women's."

Cerberus

@Shafizadeh During the 19th century, everything believed that women were less intelligent than men. But the main cause of that was the fact that women got much less education than men. They never went to university.

@Keepthesemind The parking spots for women? They are a recommendation, and an attempt to discourage men from parking in the easiest spots?

@Shafizadeh Men benefit = men have an advantage. They performed better in the test.

Shafizadeh

oh, got it

thx

Cerberus

But is it because of training, or natural ability?

Shafizadeh

@Cerberus their brains can process the changing position and speed of a car quicker. So natural ability

Keep these mind

@Cerberus Does it matter? Really?

Cerberus

5:38 PM

@Shafizadeh It doesn't say anything about natural ability. You can process things better if you have trained for that.

Shafizadeh

So what's "their brain" ?

Cerberus

@Keepthesemind That depends on what you're trying to achieve, the ultimate purpose of the discussion?

@Shafizadeh You can train your brain.

Shafizadeh

ah ok ok ! got it

Cerberus

If the part of your brain is damaged that allows you so hear things, sometimes another part of your brain can substitute, it can learn to process the sounds that you hear.

Just an example.

When you learn things, the structure of your brain changes a little bit.

But some brains can learn the same thing better than other brains, or more easily.

It is very difficult to distinguish between natural ability and trained ability.

Keep these mind

Although I would be slightly interested in average spatial awareness differences between men and women in general. Anecdotal evidence seems to suggest to me that women are at a disadvantage. But I could be wrong. (Are you going to explain this by women being more ready to ask for directions? Then that's a similar issue, but the other way around.)

Shafizadeh

5:42 PM

@Cerberus yes, but men's natural ability is better :-P

just kidding

Færd

@Shafizadeh In what?

@Shafizadeh Okay.

Shafizadeh

@Færd Driving (and everything else) ;-)

Færd

Well, if you're still joking, then okay.

Shafizadeh

and if I'm not?

Cerberus

@Shafizadeh Hah, I think nobody really knows. It is possible.

Shafizadeh

5:43 PM

:-)

@Cerberus Are you male of female?

Cerberus

@Keepthesemind At a disadvantage because of natural ability or training?

@Shafizadeh Male.

In Latin, names on -us are always male.

Shafizadeh

ok

Keep these mind

@Cerberus Again, does it matter?

Cerberus

@Keepthesemind Again, it depends!

Keep these mind

@Cerberus But on not the answer, I hope.

Shafizadeh

5:45 PM

@Cerberus Oh really? do you mean because there is us in the end of your name ("Cerberus") then you are male?

Cerberus

@Keepthesemind Umm the answers depends on what you want to know.

@Shafizadeh Yes! Because Cerberus is a Latin name, and in the Latin language almost all names for people on -us are male.

Keep these mind

@Cerberus "-us names are uncommon as baby girl names. Their usage peaked modestly in 1996 with 0.154% of baby girls being given -us names. Within the top 1000 baby names then, there were 3 -us names. The names have substantially slipped in popularity since then, and are currently of sporadic use."

Cerberus

In Greek, -os indicates a male name if it is a person.

@Keepthesemind The number of Latin speakers must have been fairly small in 1996!

I'm assuming you're not talking about Ancient Italy.

I do wonder what female names on -us have been in use in modern times in any Indo-European language.

Keep these mind

Cerberus

Ah, yes, Venus.

That is an important exception.

What place is this? England?

Keep these mind

5:49 PM

From: babynamespedia.com/end/f/us

Cerberus

Alexus is probably a misspelling of Alexis.

And Lexus...I can make head nor tail of that.

Keep these mind

@Cerberus Most of these names seem just wrong.

But perhaps you can explain Venus?

Cerberus

The goddess of love.

Keep these mind

@Cerberus Yes, but why wasn't she called Vena or something?

Cerberus

@Keepthesemind It was an unusual name, to be sure.

I don't know its etymology.

Anonymous

5:53 PM

@Shafizadeh It's sad how many people believe stuff like that.

Cerberus

But the suffix -us in her name is an entirely different suffix from the -us in male names.

The accusative of Cerberus is Cerberum, as expected. The accusative of Venus is Venerem.

Shafizadeh

@snailboat I was just kidding. Are you female?

Anonymous

Well, a lot of people say stuff like that and believe it.

Keep these mind

@Cerberus So is the accusative fool-proof? Or are there exceptions as well?

Cerberus

@Keepthesemind Umm I think it is fool proof for the names of people.

But not for e.g. trees, which are always feminine, even if they go -us, -um.

Quercus "oak", accusative quercum.

Shafizadeh

5:58 PM

@snailboat I'm not one of those people .. Are you female? (To be honest I'm just curious)

Keep these mind

@Cerberus Anyway, don't worry, I think that all epistemological/epistemic states regarding your own gender (if any) are just fine.

Cerberus

Yay!

I think it's interesting how the acceptance of transexuality seems to be accelerating.

Transsexuality?

The transvestite man who won the Eurovision song contest.

Keep these mind

@Cerberus Except that she wasn't European...

Cerberus

Oh, no? Well, does that matter?

Keep these mind

@Cerberus The Eurovision stuff doesn't matter at all, so neither does that.

Cerberus

6:01 PM

How do you mean?

Keep these mind

@Cerberus What?

Cerberus

I think it's interesting that so many millions should have voted for a transvestite.

By the way, he is Austrian.

Keep these mind

@Cerberus I don't think that is very interesting. The contest has at least a reputation of being particularly popular among 'non-traditionals'(?).

@Cerberus I thought s/he was Israeli? But that's earlier, right?

Anyway, I think it is all fine.

Cerberus

@Keepthesemind Yes, but it's still big enough not to be a niche thing.

@Keepthesemind I think that was the true transsexual. But she really made a choice, it was either or. Conchita Wurst, on the other hand, blended the sexes.

Keep these mind

@Cerberus I'm not saying it is niche, just that it explains 'popularity'.

Cerberus

6:08 PM

OK.

Keep these mind

@Cerberus According to the most progressives, there are quite a few possible choices of gender. I think at least eight.

Although, a continuous or variable gender are probably among those.

Færd

6:47 PM

Fun fact: display and play are etymological strangers.

Shafizadeh

@Naseem Where are you from?

Naseem

Hi

PhMgBr

Low

Naseem

I am from Yemen

What about you?

Shafizadeh

I'm from Iran .. That's interesting, your nik-name is a Iraninan name :-)

PhMgBr

6:57 PM

It's an Arab name originally.

Shafizadeh

yes it is

also it is very usual in Iran

PhMgBr

Needless to say the two languages are entangled in each other.

With each other.

Around each other.

Damn prepositions.

Mitch

Fun fact: Russia invaded Ukraine two years ago and still no one cares

PhMgBr

@Mitch Fun fact: This very minute people are dying around the world because of illness, hunger, or war. And we don't give a F.

Færd

Lots of fun facts of that sort.

Shafizadeh

7:00 PM

@PhMgBr What's "F" ?

PhMgBr

@Shafizadeh Frog

Shafizadeh

ah

Færd

@Shafizadeh He's toying with you.

Shafizadeh

!!!

So what's it?

Færd

It's F***.

Shafizadeh

7:02 PM

OH :-)

Naseem

Oh I see..nice to meet you all

Færd

You too.

Shafizadeh

@PhMgBr Why are you make me fun? Are you sick?

PhMgBr

Yes, I just caught a cold.

Shafizadeh

:-)

PhMgBr

7:03 PM

Also I'm not cruel, I was looking for a meaningful link I could give you.

Naseem

Yes ..it is an Arab name originally

PhMgBr

This is as far as /me goes.

Shafizadeh

:-)

Færd

@Naseem It's funny how it's a girls' name in Iran.

Shafizadeh

girl's name *

Færd

7:05 PM

Nope.

Naseem

Here too

PhMgBr

@Færd Are you saying winds are supposed to be male?

Naseem

It is used for both..male and female

Færd

Naseem is a masculine adjective.

Shafizadeh

@Færd Why not? "girls' name" is something like this "girls's name" which is wrong

PhMgBr

7:06 PM

@Shafizadeh If something is a property of a girl, it's a girl's. If something is a property of girls, it's girls'.

Shafizadeh

Well, Naseem is a property of girl

PhMgBr

Or girls.

Færd

Mar 16 at 15:10, by IͶΔ

@Shafizadeh No, that's how plural nouns get the apostrophe.

PhMgBr

So both girl's and girls' are correct.

Naseem

It does not mean wind..Naseem means breeze

PhMgBr

7:08 PM

@Færd That guy is an idiot.

Shafizadeh

@Naseem Same meaning in Iran

@PhMgBr Me?

PhMgBr

No, the person that said that sentence.

Færd

@PhMgBr Which do you say, These are woman's shoes or These are women's shoes?

I bet the first one is not at all common.

Shafizadeh

@Færd first and later are identical ..

PhMgBr

@Færd Different, that is. Mary is a girl name, or girls name.

Shafizadeh

7:09 PM

oh .. Got it

@Færd You are right .. I see

PhMgBr

No, he's Færd.

Naseem

So may I know where are you all from ?

PhMgBr

Iran, Iran, and Iran.

@Mitch is from the inside of a TV though.

Færd

@PhMgBr A girl's name suggests a(n indefinite) girl's name.

PhMgBr

Huh

Not necessarily.

Færd

7:12 PM

Yeah, but still.

PhMgBr

There was an interesting post about this on ELL, surprisingly.

Search for anything whose title isn't "is this grammatically correct".

Færd

My second one was clearer. And I bet (not as confidently) that it's more common.

Hi @snailboat!

Anonymous

Hello!

PhMgBr

\o

Shafizadeh

@snailboat morning :-)

PhMgBr

7:14 PM

Let's not forget that being more common doesn't mean it's more correct @Færd.

Jinx

Færd

@snailboat We were talking about which of these is better, more commonly said, whatever:

> Mary is a girl's name.

> Mary is a girls' name.

PhMgBr

*Mary LOL

Færd

@PhMgBr I added that the other one has an aside meaning that may be distracting.

Anonymous

You want to know whether a genitive NP in attributive position (one with generic reference that does not function as a determiner) should be formed on a singular or plural base.

PhMgBr

@snailboat There was something recent about this on ELL, wasn't it?

I feel I should blame myself for not tagging with "must"

Anonymous

7:17 PM

That is, a [girls]' school, not [a girl]'s school.

Færd

@PhMgBr ΓOΓ

PhMgBr

@Færd Bring in the Unicodez

Also what in the world is this?!

Anonymous

People usually write girls' rather than girl's.

Færd

@snailboat But many people share a school. What if it's for one person?

@PhMgBr Gamma.

PhMgBr

No, I meant this, that, above

Færd

7:20 PM

Oh.

Anonymous

In the Google Books corpus, queried with Google Books Ngram Viewer, it seems that a girls' school is about 120 times more common than a girl's school. I set the period from 1950 to 2000 and set smoothing to 50, and searched for a girls ' school / a girl ' s school. Due to one of the many longstanding problems with Google's tool, I can't give you a working link, but you can reproduce it by hand if you like.

Anonymous

This search averages the number of results across the entire time period and divides one by the other. Google displays the resulting number as about 12000%, which means the first term of the two is about 120 times more common.

Anonymous

You can repeat the search and set smoothing to 0 to see how the data changes over time, but it's fairly noisy since a girl's school is uncommon.

Anonymous

In any case, it doesn't change significantly over time, and I intentionally discarded the trend information.

Færd

Thanks for all that trouble you went through!

PhMgBr

7:26 PM

I love how chatting with @Snail feels like opening a book I've never read every time.

Information overflow

Anonymous

People do write a girl's school sometimes with the same meaning, though.

Anonymous

I think it might be something people are sometimes unsure how to write.

Færd

@Naseem That's true. It is more normally used as a noun (than an adjective), hence it's a proper boys' name too.

PhMgBr

What does "نسم" mean, again?

I mean the Arabic word.

The verb

Færd

to blow gently.

(for a breeze)

@snailboat That's weirder than a girl's name, isn't it?

Anonymous

7:37 PM

@Færd Probably. I bet a lot of people don't even notice where the apostrophe is, though, and interpret it using context alone.

Færd

Mhm.

Anonymous

After all, that's what we have to do in speech, and this isn't a distinction we practice as often as, say, their versus there.

Færd

Yes.

Anonymous

7:49 PM

@Færd Hmm.

Færd

As in Delicious? :P

Anonymous

I think for a [girl]'s name, the singular is fine, so it might not be distinguished from [a girl]'s name orthographically.

Anonymous

Unlike for a [girls]' school, where I think it usually would be.

Færd

@PhMgBr ^

Anonymous

Not all attributive genitives are plural. For example:

Anonymous

7:51 PM

> A Student's Introduction to English Grammar

Færd

Ah!

Anonymous

This would normally be interpreted as A [Student]'s Introduction, not [A Student]'s Introduction. It was written by a pair of linguists, not a student.

Færd

Nice example.

Anonymous

In cases like these, I suppose you're stuck using context to distinguish the two, just like you'd have to in speech.

Anonymous

But there are cases where you can see clearly that the genitive modifier is in attributive position, not determiner position:

Anonymous

7:54 PM

> a fine summer's day

Anonymous

Here, summer's follows the attributive modifier fine, an adjective.

Anonymous

Likewise:

Anonymous

> a private old people's home

Færd

@snailboat As opposed to a summer's day, perhaps?

This one has the ambiguity, I think.

Anonymous

Yes, in theory your example could be ambiguous.

Anonymous

7:57 PM

If we look at a fine summer's day, we could suggest that it's ambiguous in that a fine summer is a valid noun phrase, so it could be [a fine summer]'s day. But we can rule this out on semantic grounds, as generally it would be understood that the day is fine rather than the entire summer.

Anonymous

In a private old people's home, we don't have even that ambiguity because the genitive modifier is plural. We don't need to rule out a private old people on semantic grounds because it's actually ungrammatical.

Færd

Right.

Anonymous

We can still see that private modifies home rather than old people using a similar semantic test, of course, but there's no ambiguity about whether old people is in attributive position or not.

Færd

Thanks @snailboat. I'm going to have to hit the hay.

No, the tiles.

Anonymous

Rest well!

Anonymous

8:03 PM

Try not to hit the tiles too hard.

Færd

:-)

Bye.

Cerberus

8:13 PM

@Mitch How do you mean, nobody cares? We do care?

@snailboat Is the people's home old and private? Or is the old-people's home private?

Mitch

9:49 PM

@Cerberus it's all but forgotten in the US news. It's slowly coming out that Trump's foreign relations advisors all have ties to Putin, and the Ukraine situation may have been mentioned in passing.

@PhMgBr I think that's constant news though isn't it? I was remarking on the lack of mention of the R/U war in US news.

@Cerberus or is it the home of old people who are private.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…