English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

12:21 AM

the lyrics are a bit banal, I just liked the "renegade", because it's "renégat" in French, almost the same, and it's a very formal word, almost never used

it would make any French people smile if you use it, I wonder how frequent it is in English though?

tchrist

I read that as bana! and was wondering what all the excitement was about. :)

I think you need to say any French person in English. Well, or Frenchman, como quieras.

@crl What is the more common word for it?

crl

what about "any French people" ?

tchrist

That works. We also have rebel and outlaw, depending.

But any French person works better.

thesaurus.com/browse/renegade?s=t

crl

@tchrist yes "un rebelle"

un anarchiste

tchrist

I don’t think renegade is particularly common in English. It has more of an “outlaw” aspect than rebel necessarily does.

@crl That’s stronger, and perhaps something else, no?

crl

12:26 AM

Hehe yes

"renégat" is very Middle-Age, and 17/18/19th centuries

tchrist

Guy Fawkes.

@crl Medie(a)val, or people might think you mean a middle-aged person.

crl

Ok

tchrist

But that is not the Middle Ages. It is the Enlightenment, no?

crl

I don't remember how to call the periods between end of Middle-Age and the modern age

The end of Middle-Age is 1500

tchrist

Renaissance, Enlightenment/Age of Reason.

It then becomes muddled.

crl

12:29 AM

Ah right

then the Industrial age

tchrist

Which came to different places at different times.

crl

Right, indeed, Renaissance and Enlightenment/Age of Reason terms are mostly used for Western European countries no?

the "siècle des Lumières"

tchrist

Yes.

crl

What was the transition between Enlightenment and the Industrial age?

tchrist

@crl Louis Quatorze.

crl

12:37 AM

Le roi Soleil

tchrist

@crl The Industrial Revolution began in England and thence to her colonies in the 18th century.

But it did not reach some places for . . . a very long time.

You will find that the English and French Wikipedia pages are mutually inconsistent in this. Quelle surprise! :)

Révolution industrielle

La révolution industrielle, expression d'Adolphe Blanqui mise ensuite en valeur par Friedrich Engels et par Arnold Toynbee, désigne le processus historique du XIXe siècle qui fait basculer — de manière plus ou moins rapide selon les pays et les régions — une société à dominante agraire et artisanale vers une société commerciale et industrielle. Cette transformation, tirée par le boom ferroviaire des années 1840, affecte profondément l'agriculture, l'économie, la politique, la société et l'environnement. Certains historiens contestent la validité scientifique de cette expression. Pour Werner Sombart...

Industrial Revolution

The Industrial Revolution was the transition to new manufacturing processes in the period from about 1760 to sometime between 1820 and 1840. This transition included going from hand production methods to machines, new chemical manufacturing and iron production processes, improved efficiency of water power, the increasing use of steam power, and the development of machine tools. It also included the change from wood and other bio-fuels to coal. Textiles were the dominant industry of the Industrial Revolution in terms of employment, value of output and capital invested; the textile industry was also...

crl

directly translated in parts, probably

tchrist

No, the words are very different, as you can see.

> The Industrial Revolution began in Great Britain, and spread to Western Europe and North America within a few decades.[6] The precise start and end of the Industrial Revolution is still debated among historians, as is the pace of economic and social changes.

crl

Oh you mean the contrary sorry, I thought you meant they are both inconsistent, now I get it

And the Information Age spreaded almost globally, almost at the same time

tchrist

> En Europe, au xviie siècle, l'Angleterre est une exception à plus d'un titre. Elle fait exception sur le plan culturel. Depuis le traité de Westphalie de 1648, qui stabilise la situation en Europe, en consolidant la France, l'Europe du Nord est stable sur le plan religieux, l'anglicanisme s'impose et se rapproche du protestantisme. Cette partie du monde se détache. Le parlementarisme anglais émerge au moment de la Révolution financière britannique.
Les conceptions économiques des Britanniques prennent une évolution radicale avec le libéralisme d'Adam Smith, qui reconnait la valeur économi…

Wow, that copypastes poorly.

@crl Like hit and put and cast, the verb spread doesn’t change forms for the simple past or the past participle. Something about the final dental blocking weak inflections.

crl

12:44 AM

Yes :)) I was hesitating, writing it made me feel bad

tchrist

> Mais l'Angleterre étant une île, elle s'impose une politique maritime ambitieuse.

Oh, was that it? :)

crl

England being an island, settles an ambitious maritime politics

tchrist

> La Wallonie est, après l'Angleterre, la première région du continent à connaître la révolution industrielle, dès la fin du xᴠɪɪɪᵉ siècle.

@crl Oh, I know what it says. :)

Now that part I did not know.

crl

So instead of fighting, revolutionizing, England started this Industrial Age

tchrist

Well, they had already had their Revolution.

Although of course the American Revolution was really a second Civil War for them.

Now, that’s hilarious!

crl

12:50 AM

Hehe shared toilets, well urinals are "shared" too

tchrist

That’s from the new Meta question:

0

Q: This question, and another? (i.e. when are two of something better than one?)

Remember those rather amusing double toilets in Sochi? (O.K., I have no class. I admit it.) They made me (and millions of other people) laugh, because, well, it would be kinda awkward... one per is quite enough for me. I kind of feel a somewhat similar awkwardness when I see (not a rare event...

discussion

Now, why is there no toilet paper? :(

@crl In some places more than in others. And please let’s not talk about those little holes in the ground in certain parts of the world!

crl

Turkish toilets! found them in China

tchrist

I’ve seen urinals that are their own little stalls to ones that are just a wall to ones where one literally faces one another and pees into a common basin.

I can’t get the number right on that sentence. Nothing sounds good.

crl

must be fun to see the mixing of pee in a common flow

tchrist

> DON’T CROSS THE STREAMS!

crl

12:55 AM

I mean the mix of more or less concentrated in toxins pee, the multiple beautiful shades of yellow

tchrist

Ah! Shades of yellow! Tilleul and topaz, auburn and apricot, buttercup and bombycinous, citrine and citron, fallow and feuillemorte, jonquil and jessamy, mustard and melon, ochre and or, and xanthic.

I couldn’t find another x- word that means yellow. :)

Lemon and luteous.

Dory and daffodil.

Flaxen-haired.

So sad that most people limit themselves to single color-words when there are infinitely many hues and shades and tints.

crl

Yesterday I was watching this because it has been renovated (less dangerous, less fun meh, nah seriously a few people died) and a Chinese version

I'm schized between wanting to do it, and being a little scared

tchrist

Heh.

crl

Do you like the schize verb?

tchrist

Undecided?

crl

1:07 AM

Doesn't exist indeed for the moment, trying to spread it

tchrist

Use schiz without the e so people know it rhymes with shits.

crl

Hehe

Or I'm dichotomized between ...

Note that if you do the Camino del rey in the next 6 month, it's free. After that they may try to pay back the work done

Reminds me of a silly place in the pre-Alps mountains where they made pay for seeing a cascade

tchrist

That’s interesting, but I doubt that it would cost as much as the flight to Málaga.

crl

lol

hike price << flight price

not a bit shift, but the sign used in physics to mean "is insignificant in front of"

tchrist

The American’s accent is very annoying.

Robusto

1:12 AM

@tchrist Prolly where we get oxytocin, the miracle hormone that chills men out after sex.

tchrist

I think it is because he makes no attempt to say the Spanish words passably.

Robusto

0

A: Is the split in pronunciation of "detail" regional, semantic, or irrelevant?

In response to the answer rather than the question. In British English it is ALUMINIUM and not ALUMINUM. The "i" is in the spelling too.

This is a comment on an answer.

I flagged, but @Andrew and @Matt went to bed, methinks.

tchrist

Well, it wasn’t much of an answer either.

@Robusto I thought they lived in different places. :)

Robusto

Both live in England.

That's close enough for fish & chips.

tchrist

I think Andrew stays up longer.

But you know, that "answer" being replied to bothered me.

We could eventually delete it ourselves.

Robusto

1:15 AM

Yes.

tchrist

Here, I’ll start. :)

Robusto

Funny, I didn't see the delete link before.

tchrist

I invented it. :)

I can make it go away, too.

crl

Oh.. "j'ai le vertige en montagne" translates to "I'm scared of heights" in English, I like better the word vertigo

tchrist

But I won’t.

@crl Then say "I have/get vertigo in the mountains".

crl

1:18 AM

ok

Robusto

@crl I think it's pretty it translates to "I'm scared of heights in the mountains."

crl

It's actually better because in French vertige also means "dizzy", (only context distinguish which is the meaning)

@Robusto yes

or "I have the mountain heights" ?

(or google translate messed up)

tchrist

Heh.

Now that could NEVER happen!

Robusto

I mean "pretty clear" not just "pretty."

tchrist

Acrophobia.

Robusto

1:21 AM

Me tired. Me up since 4:30 this a.m.

crl

Good way to check google translation is to check back the translated text in the original language

Robusto

Well, that way lies madness.

Eventually it all turns to white noise.

crl

"Je ai les hauteurs de la montagne"

:)), if not worse

Robusto

@crl Je mange haute cuisine en la montagne.

crl

Y tu? tienes el vertigo?

tchrist

1:26 AM

Edibles?

Everybody gets dizzy on edibles.

Mitch

I get full

crl

full of what?

tchrist

@Mitch Now try saying that in French. Carefully. :)

crl

I wonder why there isn't a repeat button in Youtube yet

Mitch

Dame pleine

crl

1:33 AM

"J'en ai plein le cul"

tchrist

Heh.

@Mitch You want me to give you WHAT!?

Oh right, there’s an L.

> El mariquita se peina
en su peinador de seda.

Los vecinos se sonríen
en sus ventanas postreras.

El mariquita organiza
los bucles de su cabeza.

Por los patios gritan loros,
surtidores y planetas.

El mariquita se adorna
con un jazmín sinvergüenza.

La tarde se pone extraña
de peines y enredaderas.

El escándalo temblaba
rayado como una cebra.

¡Los mariquitas del Sur,
cantan en las azoteas!

Note the rhyme scheme.

Every sentence ends in -é-a- assonant rhyme.

And all split-lines 8 syllables save for del Sur.

Robusto

@crl No tengo vertigo sino codigo en las montañas.

tchrist

Which still counts as tetrameter, since it has a blank unstressed syllable.

We never rhyme things that way in English. At least, not that I know of.

Este poeta español, miembro de la mítica Generación del 27, es el mayor referente de la literatura española del siglo XX. También escribió numerosas obras de teatro, género en el que también se lo considera autoridad e ícono del siglo pasado, destacándose Bodas de sangre y La casa de Bernarda Alba.

Yesterday Randy began to shed for the first time in his life.

He’s the short-hair. Lorin, well, Lorin is different, and began to shed last fall.

@SabreTooth Welcome to the Room Imconprehansible!

Sabre Tooth

1:51 AM

I am afraid to speak

crl

@Robusto jaja, exelente

Dientes de Sable

tchrist

@SabreTooth The temblor in your voice manifests itself in your stutter and pause.

@crl Beware her paws!

Oh, the Lorca page has the other Canción del Jinete on it! Why not the Cordoban one, lejana y sola?

Sabre Tooth

@tchrist you can tell that in a chat room???

tchrist

And why did he write two poesías que comparten un solo título, damn it!

crl

Dientes_de_sable

tchrist

1:54 AM

@SabreTooth Yep: you didn’t finish your sentence; you merely trailed off in hesitation.

Sabre Tooth

@tchrist well, there you go! I learn something new about my own written speech

tchrist

We aim to please here.

Además. :)

Sabre Tooth

@tchrist what a noble aim

tchrist

But be warned: this is not the Rheum of Strait Answers.

Sabre Tooth

I noticed

tchrist

1:59 AM

Really? How could you tell? You’ve no question asked. Here.

Sabre Tooth

I am chatroom super powers too

tchrist

yawns

You also misverbed.

Mitch

@tchrist cough cough

tchrist

Always more gripe.

Mitch

fevers

tchrist

2:03 AM

Out out, you febrile creature you!

Mitch

spots

Sabre Tooth

I did that deliberately

tchrist

I am quit of catarrh for the season, and I would not have you spewing your spume in the general environs.

Mitch

If the next symptom is pain with bright lights, off to the emergency room!

@tchrist Turn your head when you cough

What's up with dudes that spit into the urinal right before they pee?

No judgement, just askin

tchrist

I
Have
No
Puta
Idea
Verily = ihnp4

Mitch

2:05 AM

It just seems weird.

Sabre Tooth

@tchrist lol

tchrist

@Mitch Potty mouth.

Mitch

@crl ackuna.com/badtranslator

Sabre Tooth

@Mitch actually, it's not what's up, but what's down in that case

tchrist

Would you like to buy a period?

Sabre Tooth

2:12 AM

no thank you

tchrist

They’re no less than cheat at half the price nor for double your money.

Sabre Tooth

I aint spendin' no money on no punktuation

tchrist

Punk.

Spunk.

Sabre Tooth

I do not speak English at all.

tchrist

Spunk-fencer.

crl

2:14 AM

@Mitch Hehe, fun idea

tchrist

If you have to pee on the electronic fence, do remember to expectorate beforehand.

Sabre Tooth

lol

tchrist

Just your chest though. You may keep your skin, as no excoriation is required.

Sabre Tooth

well, that is a relief

tchrist

points to starboard ↗

Did you know that ELU is fifth in traffickers?

Sabre Tooth

2:19 AM

and?

tchrist

People pissing their lives away.

Sabre Tooth

delightful!

tchrist

Shocking.

Spit friend and enter.

Sabre Tooth

eh?

tchrist

Success.

Cerberus

2:30 AM

Greetings.

Did you know that some car mechanics charge €7500 an hour?

This one guy charged €90 for repairs that took only 43 seconds, including diagnosis.

Plugging in an ignition cable.

tchrist

2:55 AM

You? Cars?

Cerberus

Not I.

tchrist

3:08 AM

You must know no plumbers. They have a $90 minimum per house call.

Even for nothing. Just like doctors.

Cerberus

5:04 AM

@tchrist Right, plumbers are the same here.

tchrist

Goooooooood morning!

Cerberus

It's bed time!

How about yours?

tchrist

Got up because I couldn’t sleep because of having an empty stomach.

So ate a palm-sized pizza.

Oh, something new happened yesterday.

Randy began to shed. For the first time in his life.

tchrist

5:43 AM

What in the world is this trash?

-2

A: Is there an English idiom that means "you can always find a law to convict anyone"?

the "murder" issue everybody's talking about is what ham did with previous patients before he did it to a certain individual... surprise, surprise, it wasn't the first time he did it... that's why he was comfortable enough to do such a thing... this time, he had K give the initial doses (to a we...

Johan Larsson

5:58 AM

do you know what classturbation means?

TIL

Robusto

11:39 AM

@tchrist: Is there any reason to use one or the other of the "from . . . to" expressions? In other words, is there any reason to choose between de octubre a diciembre and desde octubre hasta diciembre? Euphony, perhaps, given certain comparators?

tchrist

One is longer.

Sounds a bit more formal, or more complete, or something.

But probably you would just say entre octubre y diciembre.

By the way, entre is a strange preposition: it takes nominative objects. Entre tú y yo is correct, while entre ti y mí is incorrect.

Robusto

12:30 PM

A lot of the Spanish prepositions seem to use the nominative.

tchrist

Which others?

Robusto

Well, con, de, a, etc.

Or perhaps the inflections only show up in pronouns?

Well, that's not it, either.

tchrist

Only pronouns have case in Spanish. Just like English.

Robusto

Yes, I realized that as soon as I said it.

tchrist

Conmigo/tigo/sigo is a special case.

Robusto

12:33 PM

Ella come con él.

We would say She eats with him not She eats with he.

tchrist

That’s true.

But it’s para mí and para ti, yet para él and para ella.

Robusto

I think the only pronoun that never gets inflected in English is you. True? Lemme think.

tchrist

These days.

Robusto

Hence the present tense.

tchrist

Only 1s and 2s inflect as objects of prepositions.

But they do not do so with entre.

Anything else does.

Or rather, they do with anything else.

And again, con is special-cased.

No pun intended. :)

You know, I assimilated this so long ago that I probably haven’t thought about it in several decades.

Robusto

12:39 PM

I know the feeling.

1

A: I'll let you know what I ended up with or what I end up with

Neither is incorrect, but the first one sounds a bit odd and the second one sounds right (at least to my American-English ear).

¿Cómo?

The first one sounds just fine.

tchrist

I know.

Kids.

room topic changed to English Language & Usage: The Incomprehensiбle Room (no tags)

crl

1:14 PM

El room que nadie entiende

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

1:46 PM

Is there any kind of rule of thumb for el and la applications for nouns ending in a?

To wit: la familia, la biblioteca.

I'm guessing there is little rhyme or reason.

tchrist

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 There is.

They are usually feminine, except for -ista professions and nouns of Greek origin.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

I see.

tchrist

But you could have both el periodista and la periodista, for a man journalist and a woman journalist respectively.

The Greek nouns I’m thinking of end in -ma, -pa, -ta.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Oh, that reminds me of el chupacabra.

tchrist

So el poeta, el mapa, el pirata.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

1:54 PM

Charisma?

tchrist

Yes.

> analema
anatema
aroma
atleta
axioma
bigrama
carcinoma
carisma
cinema
clima
cometa
crucigrama
diagrama
dilema
diploma
dogma
drama
eccema
emblema
enema
enfisema
enigma
esmegma
esquema
estigma
fantasma
fibroma
fonema
glaucoma
hematoma
idioma
idiota
indígena
israelita
lema
lexema
magma
mapa
melisma
morfema
panorama
papiloma
pijama
pirata
planeta
plasma
poema
poeta
problema
profeta
programa
quiasma
reuma
sema
síntoma
sistema
sofisma
telegrama
tema
teorema
trigrama
zeugma (also written ceugma)
tranvía

Those are all masculine.

All but día and mediodia being Greek in origin, not Latin.

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 That’s a compound word.

NOUN-VERBers are VERB-NOUNers in Spanish.

Goatsucker, in that case.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Goatsucker!

tchrist

Aye.

And not nighthawks, either.

Robusto

@tchrist Colombianos seem to drop the terminal s much of the time.

tchrist

They’re usually better spoken than that.

Robusto

1:59 PM

These were drug couriers.

tchrist

That is an especially Caribbean trait, although it happens in many places.

Well, there you go.

They compensate by opening the preceding vowel a bit, "aspirating" it.

Robusto

I'm not perceptive enough to recognize accents at this point.

Also, what the fuck does huevón mean? They use it like we would use man or dude.

tchrist

I cannot translate that.

But it means a big testicle.

Robusto

> In México, an extremely lazy person. In Chile, Dude or a stupid person, similar to the mexican güey.

Probably it's used like we'd use asshole then.

tchrist

Yes. Or gilipollas.

Robusto

2:02 PM

> in latin culture, a lazy man. a huevon is a person who is so lazy that his testicles drag on the ground. derived from the use of the spanish word huevos (eggs) as a slang word for testicles. A huevona is a the female equivalent, although a bit less true-to-form given the lack of a droopy ballsack!

Urban Dictionary

tchrist

Figgers.

Robusto

Not necessarily a word I needed to know, but interesting.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Quite.

Happy 100K, @Rob!

Happy Arduino Day and Caturday as well.

Robusto

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Thanks!

tchrist

Meow?

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

2:07 PM

Robusto

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 ¡Hoy es Sabado Gigante!

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Robusto esta Univision?

Robusto

Sí.

tchrist

La mariquita y el gato.

Robusto

Está nevando hoy.

tchrist

2:09 PM

As opposed to el mariquita y la gata, which would be other things. :)

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

:0

tchrist

@Robusto I heard that. Horrible! 70s here.

Robusto

No me gusta la nieve.

tchrist

Ni a nadie.

Robusto

No me gusta la nieve maldita.

tchrist

2:10 PM

Como si hubiese otro tipo.

Robusto

No.

All this means is I don't get to ride my bike today.

My bike misses me.

Robusto

2:22 PM

The merits of this example aside, don't count on Martin to use English correctly in all cases. He is affecting an imaginary dialect that is an approximation of Wardour Street English, and even then it's not always well done. — Robusto 12 secs ago

tchrist

2:50 PM

It’s hackneyed.

@Robusto Muy fako.

Cerberus

Hello.

Robusto

Hola.

Cerberus

You have snow again??

We have rain again.

Robusto

Meh.

Cerberus

I saw something about nieve, which I assume means snow.

Robusto

2:59 PM

Yup.

tchrist

No se llama la Sierra Nevada por nada, sino por su nieve.

Cerberus

Ah, sí.

tchrist

Note that there are several Sierras Nevadas scattered about the world by that name, as the incidence of snow in the mountains is a common one. :) The two most famous are of course the range outside Granada with the highest paved road in Europe and the one dividing California from . . . wait for it . . . Nevada.

Cerberus

Nix texit omnes terras vestras.

tchrist

Νύξ.

And not here!

Well, in the mountains, course it does.

Cerberus

3:03 PM

Heu, miracle!

tchrist

It is as ’twere Easter here, a rebirth of life.

Cerberus

An eu dicam?

tchrist

I can’t stop reading pieces of your Latin in the wrong language. :)

Cerberus

Pascha non adhuc ad nos advenit.

tchrist

baaaaa

Cerberus

3:05 PM

Legenda sunt Latina in verbis meis. Sunt enim!

Semper tibi Latine scribam.

tchrist

Well, I was thinking of the PT-ES distinction of choosing the dominant vowel in diphthongs last night. Eu vs yo, or Coimbra for that matter.

So eu set me haring off.

QuEEmbra in PT, cOimbra in ES.

Impossible without IPA. I give up.

@Cerberus Noted. Which reminds me that I would have explained to @Robusto the conmigo/contigo/consigo “exceptions” with mihi and tibi if he remembered those.

Cerberus

Right, those are the silliest words.

tchrist

Portuguese even uses connosco for 1pl, but Spanish does not.

Cerberus

@tchrist However, in practice, I have to say eu doesn't always sound that much different in casual speech.

tchrist

It used to use convosco back when they were vos-ier.

Cerberus

3:12 PM

Naturally.

tchrist

Why are they silly?

Because cum + mecum is redundant? :)

Cerberus

Yes!

Of course.

tchrist

Redundancy are useful.

Cerberus

By the way, why do we still have no way to move a question to ELL?

Redundancy be silly.

tchrist

Because of two things.

First because ELL is still on the (beta) graduation list, not the graduated list.

Second because ELU members cannot be trusted not to dump shitty questions on ELL.

Cerberus

3:15 PM

Meh.

They keep sites in limbo forever.

tchrist

Well.

Full site design is non-trivial.

Cerberus

Then make migration a special category, where a diamond gets the final say.

tchrist

But getting easier lately.

@Cerberus It is that now.

Cerberus

I don't care about the looks.

tchrist

Since it is on the graduation list, it does seem silly.

Cerberus

3:17 PM

@tchrist No, but make it possible for us to recommend a question for migration.

tchrist

> I am voting to migrate this question to ELL.

There are two problems with that, however.

First, it doesn’t flag a moderator.

Second, custom reasons disappear once closed.

Cerberus

See?

tchrist

Moderators are exception handlers: flag them for exceptional action.

@Robusto Note that consigo is a bit different from conmigo and contigo in that consigo can only be used reflexively (to agree with se), whereas the other two are used wherever.

Cerberus

3:57 PM

@tchrist Yes, and this shouldn't be so ecxeptional.

@Mitch Want to be weirded out?

You were in my dream. You had a face.

You didn't do anything of significance, but it was you.

Isn't that strange?

crl

4:19 PM

I'm done with Losedow8, it took 5 minutes to boot this morning, gonna get Ubuntu14.04

Mitch

4:51 PM

@Cerberus Yes. That's weird. I remember when I was a kid having dreams about cartoon characters mixed in with live friends. Or a person I knew but they'd have a different face or look like someone totally different.

Cerberus

Exactly!

Some girl from primary school I barely remember.

So you are a cartoon character.

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