English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Q: What does it mean to call someone a 'drink of water'?

1:35 AM

Well, we passed 50K questions sometime today.

Here's the culprit: english.stackexchange.com/q/235815/2303

6

What does it mean when you call someone a 'drink of water', like at the end of this clip from the Shawshank Redemption? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sD07V7Lwacc It's intended as an insult from the context, but what does it mean?

pejorative-language

2:01 AM

@Robusto Then was does it say questions/235815 then?

I think that means that 79% of questions have been deleted.

2:18 AM

In case you thought the high-end phone market was a healthy market.

Instead of an oligopoly of clones.

3:07 AM

yellow

anyone here?

@Cerberus

@user965347 Hello.

just wanna ask simple question

which one the right sentence

i got rekt everyday

or i get rekt everyday

got or get ?

What is rekt?

wrecked

Ah.

3:19 AM

if its past i must put got right?

They are both correct, but one is about the past, the other about the present.

so, if i just wanna tell that my life is all rekt everyday

got or get?

Every day is with a space, except when it is used as an adjective.

oh

separated, ok ok i get it

If this continued wrecking is still going on, then get.

3:21 AM

oh

But you should really not spell it ~~rekt~~.

@_@ my friends always say that,

thats not english?

It's not.

yeah its wrecked supposed to be

Of course you should also use capitals, but you no doubt know that.

3:23 AM

capital?where?

and also i have pulled, or i have pull?

> I get wrecked every day.

have pulled

ok thanks

The verb have goes with a past participle (pulled), not with an infinitive (pull).

ok i get it

and may i ask again?

Sure!

The pronoun I is always spelled with a capital I, by the way.

3:26 AM

i did typed or i did type

oh

The verb do goes with an infinitive, not with a past participle, so I did type.

hmmmm :\

so have and did have a different treatment

Absolutely.

And have can be used in different ways, with different meanings.

yeah

i have 3 books

Have to =~ must/should.

Yes, that too.

3:28 AM

hmmm , i see, thats interesting

grammar is hard

ok then thanks anyway

It is!

You should probably get an introductory book to English grammar.

It will help you a lot.

I wouldn't know which one, though, as I have never used such a book.

haha ok

4:00 AM

@Cerberus I only see the one guy, clonelike though he may be.

@Cerberus Gee, I thought I was the only one with that "trouble".

2

Trolling

Proposed Q&A site for people who like to troll their friends. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Currently in definition.

@tchrist You shouldn't focus on the flesh always.

@tchrist Why?

4:26 AM

in Math Mods' Office, 3 mins ago, by infinitesimal simplicio

In my opinion it would be beneficial for moderators to joining this site and share their valuable experiences with each other.

4:39 AM

in Tavern on the Meta on Meta Stack Exchange Chat, 20 mins ago, by Shog9

Total questions closed
----------------------
8745

(1 row(s) returned)

Total questions asked PctClosed
--------------------- ---------
20980                 41.68 %

(1 row(s) returned)

Name                                       Closed     Closed->Edited Closed->Reopened Cl->Ed->Re
------------------------------------------ ---------- -------------- ---------------- ----------
duplicate                                        1898        200             54               19
off-topic - Questions on **choosing an ide        103         22              7                6

in Tavern on the Meta on Meta Stack Exchange Chat, 22 mins ago, by Shog9

gratuitous ELU closing stats, last 365 days:

Only 42% closed. Gorsh.

Interesting

I do not know whether that is from SEDE and so discounts deleted questions. It may well not be, and so might include them too.

Notice he didn't say "ELU gratuitous closing stats" in the other order. ;-)

5:00 AM

Noted :D

9:02 AM

@tchrist OK, 50,000th message that stuck then.

9:41 AM

@Mitch (late reply) I got that impression for multiple reasons. 1. I know English quite well, I got a near-perfect score on mock exams, apart from perfect tenses (And I lost a few points on an issue with American wording, apparently). 2. My English teacher says that Americans pretty much don't use perfect tenses.

11:35 AM

@Robusto I think it includes all posts in the number, but I'm not sure of that.

Hey, @Robusto made 100K! I missed that, well done!

8

user116848

12:18 PM

Congratulations Rob!

user116848

And hi all!

2:27 PM

@Mateon1 Is your English teacher a BrE speaker or an AmE speaker? Also, to clarify the subject, what do you think an example of a perfect tense is? 'have' or 'had' or link?

@Mitch She's not a native speaker, but she teaches us British English

I'm a native speaker of AmE, but not BrE, so I don't know if BrE uses perfect tenses a lot either.

I don't know how to construct perfect tenses so I would have to look into the text book to be sure. It's something along the lines of "I had done something"

I had done something, I have done something, I will have done something

I think

I don't intuitively know when to apply it

Sure, that's a section in any good learning grammar, in AmE. future perfect is not used everyday, but is not uncommon. 'I had done ...' is used a little more common. 'I have done ...' is used all the time, usually as a contraction.

Not to be confused with I have been -ing

2:33 PM

'The shipment has arrived'

I think that's simple tense actually

Has != had

had in perfect tense != past version of "to have"

You can construct a sentence "If I had had something..." I believe

http://www.englishpage.com/verbpage/presentperfect.html
http://www.englishpage.com/verbpage/pastperfect.html
http://www.englishpage.com/verbpage/futureperfect.html

2:50 PM

@Mateon1 Getting hung up on “Did you eat breakfast yet?” versus “Have you eaten breakfast yet?” is a completely pointless waste of time. Any native speaker will immediately recognize both, and most will use both.

Well, points on an exam aren't "pointless" :P

Your exam is broken.

There is no one correct answer here.

Well, telling that to the teacher is a harder thing

Your teacher is not a native speaker.

I am.

Last time I told her about using "fun" as a noun, "it was a fun movie" I was told that it's incorrect on the exam because they don't teach native english but "what the School system wants you to learn" English (not exactly what she said, but pretty much the same)

Actually, is it a noun?

2:54 PM

@Mateon1 in "it was a fun movie", fun is not a noun.

verb is an action, noun is a modifier?

noun is a thing

No, noun is an object

> That was the funnest thing I ever did.

What's the modifier then?

2:55 PM

I can’t inflect nouns into the superlative degree.

fun is an adjective in your sentence

adjective

That's it

needed to google translate :/

I had fun. We're having some fun now. There is fun to be had. He was making fun.

Those are all nouns.

Yep, I know

I have an exact equivalent in my language but I always mix them up

(the names)

She didn't agree with using fun as an adjective and told me it can only be used as a noun

And that I should use "funny" instead

Which isn't my intention

Since I want to say "enjoyable"

Huh, I didn't even know it was a controversy, but Grammar Girl covers it: quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/…

Remind your teacher that language changes and you can't argue that fun is used by native speakers as an adjective.

3:00 PM

I think she's about to switch student groups since we're starting holidays right now

! Then you don't have much time! Go! Remind her right now! :)

Too late

I'm departing in two days for holidays

On Sunday morning

And right now I have another question regarding what I just said, "On Sunday morning", is this correct? I can't use "a" because I refer to this one specific Sunday morning, but "the" doesn't sound right.

"the next Sunday morning" could work, I guess

But what about just "Sunday morning"?

I'm departing Sunday morning. I'm departing on Sunday morning. I'm departing on a Sunday morning. I'm departing on the Sunday morning.

Your last one feels like it needs more to it.

They are all valid, but mean slightly different things.

@tchrist Yeah I would avoid writing it that way normally.

But in context it might work. It's informal, I guess.

3:19 PM

hi

i wanna ask

which one is right?

i will be using skype
or
i will be use skype

The first one

oh ok

if i remove 'be'

is it still using 'using'?

I'm not sure if this is a rule, so feel free to correct me, but I believe "to be" implies continuous

oh ok

I will use skype since that's future simple

Typo, oops

3:21 PM

oh yes yes

so its simpler for using 'i will use skype'

ok

"I will use skype" says you will use Skype that time,
"I will be using skype" means you will continue to use it

ohhhhhh

ok ok i get it

thanks anyway

:D

@Mateon1 In many cases the distinction between those two sentences is so fine that it makes no difference which one you use.

Case 1: I will use skype: at a point of time in the future, I will use skype to do something.

Case 2: I will be using skype: At some point of time in the future, I will be in a process of using skype.

But using skype is always, to some degree, a continuous action... it's almost never instantaneous.

So in many cases there is no useful difference between those two sentences.

If someone asked "How will you get in touch with me on Wednesday?" you could equally answer "I will use skype" or "I will be using skype".

Yeah, pretty much.
There is a bit of a difference, but yeah.

Case 1: I will use skype to talk to you tomorrow at 5.
Case 2: I will be using Skype to communicate with you while we work on the project.

In case of that question, technically "I will use skype" is correct, but both are accepted

@Mateon1 Both are correct.

3:33 PM

The tense of the question and answer need to match

But both sound fine either way

Who says the tense of the question and answer need to match?

Uhm... My English teacher does

That sounds like a made up rule.

Some consider the unnecessary use of continuous forms bad style.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector ] Offensive answer detected: Is there an idiom for "I'm not an expert when it comes to kinds of feces" by ej_dutch on english.stackexchange.com

3:35 PM

@Cerberus bad style, perhaps. bad grammar? no.

Some also consider adverbs and adjectives to be bad style.

That would seem...unlikely.

@Cerberus you doubt me? Strunk & White is one of them.

"How will you travel to Paris?" "I will travel by airplane."
"How are you going to travel to Paris?" "I'm going to travel by airplane."

This is what I was taught

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I have not read their book, and it has a bad reputation. I do not care for it.

@Mateon1 Most people in English-speaking countries would assume that if you're going to Paris you'll be flying.

3:37 PM

@Cerberus It has a great reputation, and also a terrible reputation.

Robusto: From Poland it isn't that clear :P

@Mateon1 It is indeed "normal" to answer in the same tense, ceteris paribus, by default. But it's not required or anything.

@Mateon1 I cannot honestly believe that this is a rule any native speakers follow.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes. Opinions about it approach religious fervor.

Apparently "School English" enforces that rule

3:38 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 From what I hear, their knowledge of language is lacking and their advice inconsistent.

@Mateon1 Poland is a Polish-speaking country, last I heard.

Yeah, but we do learn English

Most people here will understand at least basic English

@Cerberus No. Strunk and White have good things to say, but you have to take anything you learn about style from any source with a grain of salt.

Sure.

@Mateon1 But you can't say that Poland is, in toto, an English-speaking country.

3:39 PM

But Fowler's where it's at, yo!

@Cerberus Many people hate Fowler.

@Robusto No, I can't

But I gave that example from the point of view of my location

@terdon bows Thanks to all my fan.

Whatever, Also, I believe the British have a underground tunnel to drive to France underwater

@Robusto Not the right people!

@Mateon1 Well, I believe France owns it too.

3:41 PM

@Mateon1 Nobody I know in Britain wants to go to France.

End of story. Move on.

Except all of Britain.

@Cerberus You're' getting religious again.

Cf. the Dordogne.

@Cerberus Hah, funny you should mention that. I shot a TV commercial there, back in the day.

@Robusto Of course. It's art, man!

3:42 PM

In and around Sarlat-la-Caneda.

One of the all-time boondoggles in the history of all-time boondoggles.

Everyone goes there! At least the entire populations of Holland and England move to Sarlat every year.

Yeah, but they don't get there till August. I was there in March/April.

That must have been somewhat better...

June/July/August are the worst months.

Well, the hotels had vacancies.

I have been there...

3:44 PM

But the Sarlat mafia, apparently, stole a bunch of our prop vehicles.

So we had to get new stuff flown in from Paris.

Haha, sério?

Truly.

I didn't know they had one...

Really-o truly-o.

We were doing a 19th-century period piece and had carriages and such, and someone nicked the good ones.

What they were planning to do with them, I have no idea.

Ugh.

3:46 PM

@Robusto They may have good things to say, but they also have some really terrible thigns to say that make no sense and are not based on evidence. They also have some things that are plainly wrong.

That's almost vandalism.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Isn't that what I said? If not, it's what I meant to imply.

7 mins ago, by Robusto

@Cerberus No. Strunk and White have good things to say, but you have to take anything you learn about style from any source with a grain of salt.

@Cerberus Well, I don't know if they defaced the items. They merely stole them.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Fowler is much better. Of course you should take anything with a grain of salt, but his principles are sound, and he is a good writer himself.

@Robusto In consider stealing useless things almost like vandalism.

But these were useful things—to us.

Yes, but useless to them.

So they gained nothing, except your grief.

3:49 PM

@Cerberus I'm sure they sold them somewhere.

Ah, okay.

Of course tourism attracts crime...

@Robusto It seemed that you were saying that there was good stuff to read. I'm trying to say that you shouldn't even bother because the bad far outweighs the good.

And my position is that if you're capable enough to "take it with a grain of salt" then you probably don't need their advice anyway.

I think they're onto something when they inveigh against adjectives and adverbs, though that can be taken too far and certainly shouldn't prevent anybody from using a really juicy adjective when they feel like it.

Does Fowler consider him/it-self a standard? Or does it consider itself just good advice?

Similarly, there is a place for passive voice, but a good writer knows when to use it and when not to.

@Mitch Fowler is ~100 years old by now. I doubt you could consider it a standard anymore.

3:55 PM

@Robusto The problem is that you can't avoid adverbs or adjectives. You can have too many, but it's madness to just recommend never using them.

S&W self proclaim that they're just writing for beginning writers with good advice that might later be ignored.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I'm not sure that was their recommendation.

@Robusto The style guides that discuss passive voice almost never accurately even describe what the passive voice is.

e.g. S&W

The ball was thrown by Tom => Tom threw the ball.

I don't think I would favor the former over the latter in most cases.

3:57 PM

People are annoyed at S&W for being dogmatic and getting grammar wrong and bla bla bla, but really they're know themselves they're just a style suggestion, and it's everyone else that gets dogmatic about it.

That was more or less my point.

@Robusto You're denying the ball its agency, you.. you.. ballsist.

@Mitch And I'm having a ball doing so!

Me too and I'm stuffed

@Mitch It's hard to take them seriously when they tell you not to use the Passive and then go on to give example sentences that aren't even passive.

AND THEN in their own non-S&W-book writings they use adverbs, adjectives, passive, etc, just like everyone else.

3:59 PM

Anyway, time to go for a walk with a colleague. TTYL, ballists and non-ballists.

right. they're not perfect. But they're not grammarians, and they don't offere themselves as such. Just writing guidelines.

@Mitch I'm what the hip-hop crowd calls a baller.

@Mitch They offer writing guidelines they don't even follow or properly understand. Then everyone else holds that book up as some kind of magic recipe.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I'm going to write a story that uses no adjectives and no adverbs. Just to show everyone how bad it is.

@Robusto ballsy move

@Mitch how what it is?

4:01 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 sigh... I'm not writing it yet.

Also, the letter 'e'. That's out

you're off to some kind of start. I can't say what kind.

They say constraints encourages invention. I think people who say that are jerks.

@Mitch How could we tell the difference?

@Robusto Some things are outdated, but others have revised his work. The latest edition is from the aughties, I believe.

So we talk about english up in here?

4:16 PM

@LCIII and other things.

and we use english here?

@LCIII not always

Fowler's is probably the most famous and revered books of the genre.

@LCIII Err it's not what you think! That was just a little incident!

We were posing as English enthusiasts, just for the hell of it.

Should be called "English Language & Occasional Usage & Other things"

☺

We're not usually like that.

room topic changed to English Language & Occasional Usage & Other things: Now with 20% more English content! (no tags)

@LCIII Done.

4:18 PM

@Cerberus You're mad with power!

room topic changed to English Language & Occasional Usage & Other things: Cerberus is mad with power! (no tags)

Should probably be called Other things and occasionally English Language Usage.

Resists urge to rename room

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 BUWAHAHAHAHA

@terdon Err that is an adverb. What have Strunk and White just told you??

No. Adverbs.

@Cerberus I will comply while unhappy.

Tut, tut, I heard adjectives aren't allowed either.

Well, shit, then.

4:27 PM

33 mins ago, by Robusto

I think they're onto something when they inveigh against adjectives and adverbs, though that can be taken too far and certainly shouldn't prevent anybody from using a really juicy adjective when they feel like it.

Better.

What is the most famous Greek style guide?

Are there still people advocating Katharevousa?

@Cerberus Those who are still mad with power.

@Cerberus What? I thought we were posing as English enthusiasts to cover up our cell for revolution against the hegemonic power of Englishism across the world.

A bas la langue anglaise!
!مرگ بر زبان انگلیسی
胡说什么英文讲 !

4:45 PM

@Cerberus None under 120.

@Cerberus I'm not sure there is one. There are famous dictionaries but I can't name a style guide.

@terdon Therefore those mad with power are 120 or older.

@Mitch Oops I must have missed that bulletin.

@terdon Hmm I see.

Dutch is also short on style guides, but one comes to mind. It's just not very interesting, compared to Fowler.

It is weak and compromising, as opposed to principled and inspiring.

@Cerberus Viva la revolución!

@Cerberus Oh, so you mean descriptivist and reasonable as opposed to prescriptivist and oppressive?

@Robusto Ehh viva la conservidad, I would say!

@terdon Yes.

It's annoying.

I know how the average writer in a newspaper writes, I don't need to know that.

I want to improve.

4:55 PM

That's very laudable.

Have a cookie.

Of course some descriptive notes are good, and of course stylistic advice is also to a large extent based on how people actually write.

But the purpose of a style guide is not that.

@Cerberus The only way to improve is to read good writing.

Well, that is an important factor, to be sure.

Which is also why a style guide needs to be good writing.

Fowler is a good writer.

Just like Orwell.

They understand language, and they enjoy it.

@Cerberus Not as good a writer as, say, Updike.

Anyone with both an L and a W in their name is a good writer. Stands to reason.

John Fowles is an another example.

4:57 PM

@terdon Yes!

One of the all time best as far as I'm concerned.

Certainly as a prose stylist.

It might be time I re-read The French lieutenant's woman again. It's been a while.

On the other end of the spectrum, I find Joseph Conrad nearly unreadable.

@Robusto De gustibus...

5:00 PM

Haven't even tried. In terms of pure prose-smithing I'd go for Fowles, Steinbeck and Tennessee Williams I think.

@Cerberus Ooh, get Fallout 3: GotY. One of my all-time fave gaming experiences.

I knew you'd want me to!

I'm scared of those games. Too addictive.

For €4, it's hard to resist...

@terdon I can quit anytime.

5:02 PM

@Robusto I can't. I know me too well. I spend days playing strategy games, I don't want to imagine what I'll do if ever I play an open-world RPG.

Probably won't leave the house for a week and just have pizzas thrown through my mail slot.

@Cerberus Yes. wink wink

@terdon Just never try WoW.

@Robusto I won't, I know. I'll just stick to my Civilization and Total War games.

@Cerberus Revelation 3:16 Because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

@terdon I stick to those in reality. Luckily I'm only a bit player.

@terdon The way to quit gaming without ever looking back is to limit yourself to freemium games.

5:13 PM

@Mitch You winker...

@Mitch That is even weirder than other Biblical passages.

@Cerberus It's a classic. In that I vaguely remember hearing it by somebody, probably ultra conservative (essentially a call to radicalism). Also, it's in the 3:16 book by Knuth (an exegesis of the verse 3:16 in every book of the Bible). Yes, that's weird too for many reasons.

Burn it, I say. That will teach them not to disrespect lukewarm.

Q: Is Hume's Fork self-refuting?

5:34 PM

@Cerberus “If we take in our hand any volume; of divinity or school metaphysics, for instance; let us ask, Does it contain any abstract reasoning concerning quantity or number? No. Does it contain any experimental reasoning concerning matter of fact and existence? No. Commit it then to the flames: for it can contain nothing but sophistry and illusion.”

Book burner.

Oh...you've already considered this...

9

David Hume wrote: If we take in our hand any volume; of divinity or school metaphysics, for instance; let us ask, Does it contain any abstract reasoning concerning quantity or number? No. Does it contain any experimental reasoning concerning matter of fact and existence? No. Commit it then to...

empiricism hume logical-positivism

I just ate some spaghetti with Hume's Fork. It was burnt.

Johan Larsson

Opinions are like assholes — facts.

What are facts like?

Johan Larsson

hard?

5:49 PM

@Cerberus Wow. I was not expecting that.

@Mitch Well, metaphysics is often about numbers...

I believe number is one category in Aristotle's Metaphysics.

@LCIII Anything is possible on ELU.com!

Just as on zombo.com!

6:12 PM

@Cerberus the most welcoming site on the internet!

6:28 PM

@Cerberus What kind of metaphysics have you been reading? I can see a case for calling any mathematical work essentially metamathematics of the best kind, but almost entirely any work that is labelled primarily metaphysics is devoid of quantity or number.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes! Welcome!

@Mitch I don't know, it depends on the work. Number is of primary concern to many metaphysicians.

Perhaps it is on the fault line between metaphysics and ontology?

@Cerberus ?? e.g.?

The last time I took a course on metaphysics was long ago.

But I mentioned Aristotle.

Aristotle covered a lot of things. He was also a biologist, but that doesn't mean metaphysics is biology.

> Books XIII and XIV, or Mu and Nu, of Artistotle's Metaphysics: Philosophy of mathematics, in particular how numbers exist.

From Wikipaedia.