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crl
3:00 PM
much culture in this chat^...
 
This is the version I have, but you cannot judge it by its first page. Which I diddle anyway.
Obviously anyone can play the first page without even ever seeing it written down. It’s what he does with the rest of it which I like. Building up and backing off.
 
@tchrist Maybe if the piano weren't in such a small room and/or so close-mic'ed the performance might sound less strident. But it sounds like he's belaboring every nuance.
 
Not much piano nor legato in those original compositions he’s playing. Sometimes even hard to find a melody. Rather percussive.
 
@tchrist Yes, with shapeless lines.
 
This is one of those performances of his arrangement that I find much too bangy. Almost everything is FF. The only parts that are actually F are those Schultz marked PP. It intentionally disregards his dynamic markings, any crescendi or decrescendi; Schultz marked them, but this performer only knows loud. It feels plodding. I wish it were a more skilled performer.
Yes, no shape to the lines. This is so important. It's like he only reads vertically, not horizontally.
And the sound quality is terrible. Is this the fault of how it was recorded?
 
3:16 PM
7 mins ago, by Robusto
@tchrist Maybe if the piano weren't in such a small room and/or so close-mic'ed the performance might sound less strident. But it sounds like he's belaboring every nuance.
Here's how you do percussive without getting blocky with it:
 
That’s nice.
 
And here is an absolute master of dynamics:
 
I have some other Hewitt recordings.
I was halfway through reading the first comment on the Liszt recording before I realized I wasn’t reading Spanish. :)
 
Heh.
 
It’s all word-for-word cognate-identical in that comment to Spanish. It’s just a different set of orthographic transcription rules.
 
3:25 PM
Portuguese?
 
Yes.
 
@tchrist OK...I found the translation and the Bible verses, but what does it really mean? I never got that far in sunday school.
 
@tchrist Listen to the No. 3 to see how one creates lines and contrasting moods.
 
See why they can read each other’s newspapers? "Mais que apenas o toque enriquece o correto trabalho dos pedais e a sensibilidade de seguir fielmente a partitura. Uma execução singular e emocionante!" => "Más que apenas el toque enriquece el correcto trabajo de los pedales y la sensibilidad de seguir fielmente la partitura. ¡Una execución singular y emocionante!"
The notes to those pieces are in Spanish not Portuguese, though. Just in case you weren’t sure. :)
 
Does Spanish ever use cedillas, or is that only Portuguese?
 
3:31 PM
Yes and no.
 
Give me an example of a Spanish word that uses a cedilla.
 
Spanish (read: Castilian, as there was no pan-Iberian nation-state yet) originated the cedilla in the first place. However, the orthographic reforms from the Real Academia got rid of them a few centuries ago.
El Cantar del Mio Çid
Which is an odd use, representing "ts". These days, Portuguese uses ç where Spanish would write z.
 
Listen to the delicate line-shaping in the No. 4.
 
ES cazar = PT caçar
 
So Curaçao is pronounced Curazao?
 
3:34 PM
No.
 
So it's like German z then?
 
If Portuguese wanted you to voice the sibilant, it would have written z.
Pronounce it like s.
 
OK, I don't understand the distinction then.
> These days, Portuguese uses ç where Spanish would write z.
 
I see.
Well, in Spanish voicing of sibilants is not phonemic; in Portuguese, it is.
Spanish z represents an unvoiced sound save in allophones produced by regressive assimilation of a following voiced sound.
For example, desde has a phonetic [z] but a phonemic /s/. The following d morphed the s.
 
I hear a z in azúcar . . .
 
3:37 PM
Well, there are vowels on both sides. But it is a devoiced phoneme.
You might hear /z/, or you might think you do from conditioning. I'd have to hear the clip.
One strategy is to focus on the phonemics, since that’s what native speakers think in, even when it isn’t quite the phonetics they actually end up saying.
Written z is what you would call /θ/ in Northern Spanish or in the high Andes, and /s/ anywhere else.
 
All I know is, the spelling leads me astray on the pronunciation. Sometimes I do "see" the pronunciation at the expense of the actual sounds. While I'm learning I make an effort to listen before looking, but I don't always succeed.
 
In both cases, it can taken on phonetic voicing if the following sound is voiced.
Yes, that’s what I was thinking on the conditioning.
Oh brava!
So nice.
And now I have to stop rhapsodizing to locate the sound clips you need.
Found it.
El Alfabeto Fonético Internacional (AFI o IPA por sus siglas en inglés) es el sistema de transcripción fonética más ampliamente usado y de más antigua utilización en el mundo, por ser especialmente adecuado para transcribir cualquier lengua. En el mundo de habla hispana, sin embargo, aún no está muy empleado, echándose mano tradicionalmente del Alfabeto de la Revista Española de Filología, propuesto por Tomás Navarro Tomás en 1915. Se muestran los símbolos del AFI empleados para una correcta transcripción fonética y fonológica del español. Para ello se toma como base la pronunciación del español...
There are clips there for all the sounds.
So for example, there is a [z] in Israel.
But phonemically, it is still /s/.
 
Thanks.
 
I know @Cerberus can pretty much read Wikipedia articles that are written in Spanish, but he has two legs up on you. :)
I hate it when that happens. :)
 
why is in the "middle of class" correct when "class" is not a mass noun
?
 
3:48 PM
Middle of church. Middle of dinner.
 
does that mean it's an expression?
 
No.
I’m showing you contexts in which this is done.
 
So any explanation, please?
 
Contexts which contrast with middle of the road, middle of the night, middle of the text.
Class, church, dinner are all count nouns, but they do not take the when using middle of. Can you tell what those have in common compared with road, night, text?
 
they are all common nouns, right?
 
3:57 PM
All six are, yes.
 
Is there a reason behind it?
 
Yes.
 
I don't know any grammar.
 
@ABeautifulMind That is manifestly untrue.
 
Jason
 
3:58 PM
@noah I am still waiting for your ark.
 
ha ha
 
Not funny.
 
4:15 PM
>

dopamine
1959, from DOPA, the amino acid (from first letter of elements of dioxyphenylalanine), + -amine.
 
4:32 PM
@tchrist He's tried to hump my leg in chat before. It wasn't pretty.
 
@tchrist Si, lo puedo, pero con una diccionario...
And, as you can see, I cannot write in Spanish.
What I meant was that I might need a dictionary, depending on the subject.
I read it as a dialect of Latin with some influences from French and Italian.
 
@Cerberus Plus 7% Arabic.
 
(Of course I read Italian as a dialect of Latin too, my Italian is only slightly better than my Spanish.)
 
@Cerberus Your gender instincts are failing you.
 
@tchrist But I do not read it as such, because I do not know Arabic.
 
4:44 PM
Nor do I.
But the words you don’t know are often Arabic words that have not migrated outside Iberia.
 
@tchrist I was hoping it came from a Latin -io word, which is feminine.
It ends on -e in French...
But I suspected it might be wrong.
@tchrist That is possible. But I bet there are plenty of non Arabic words I don't know!
Just as not all the French words I don't know are from Celtic.
 
Mais on dit un dictionnaire en français. Il n’aurait pas de raison pour le changer en espagnol.
The Spanish feminine words you’re thinking of all end in -ión.
Usually with a c or an s before that.
 
Oh, really?
 
I believe so.
 
See, I didn't even know the sex in French.
 
4:49 PM
Gender. :)
 
I prefer sex, thank you.
3
Latin is so much clearer.
 
@Cerberus Notado.
 
I can be 99% sure of the sex of a random word in Latin.
Gracias.
 
As can I be very likely to know the gender of a word new to me in Spanish. Not always, but usually. Plus there are real-world differences in intentionally varying the gender to shift the meaning: el guardia, el policía is just one such person, while la guardia, la policía refers to the entire force.
This becomes problematic with female police officers.
You have to circumlocute them: una/la señora policía.
 
@tchrist I wondered about that.
 
4:54 PM
Lady doctors and male nurses.
There are patterns to these things, but it takes a goodly while to see them, let alone appreciate them.
 
Funny.
What I was was rubbish, by the way.
It could not have come from -io.
 
Words like ratio yield feminines, it is true.
 
It must be -aris, -are, -aria, -arius, or, more likely, -arium.
 
Concur.
 
@tchrist Yes, but those were only productive from the classical age onwards with supine stems.
 
4:58 PM
@Robusto If you have concrete ponderances, toss them in the pond and I’ll fish them out.
 
Ugh, people star the silliest things here...I should have known.
The Spaniards carry Greek flags.
Protesting against 'European' austerity.
Because the new Greek government is very much against the current austerity programmes.
'Podemos' is the new anti-austerity party set to break the bipartisan deadlock in Spain.
 
@Cerberus That’s Madrid’s Plaza del Sol, not its Plaza Mayor.
 
So...
I have never been there.
 
It’s easier to hold manifestations in the solar place; more openings and a broader plain.
 
Ah.
Hence the name?
 
5:06 PM
It’s also better for publicity, because there is actual vehicular traffic to disrupt en Sol where a million arterial roads converge, whereas the Plaza Mayor has no roads and is better for formal affairs.
@Cerberus Plaza del Sol just means Sun Place, of course.
Unless you care not to translate plaza.
Idiomatically, a town’s Plaza Mayor is its Central Square in English.
Center Square? I forget. Ask Paul Lynde.
 
@tchrist So a square that has more openings and a broader plain will be sunnier.
 
That’s Sol too.
You can’t even see the streets.
@Cerberus It will, although I don’t know the actual history.
 
@tchrist Why Central, and not, say, Main?
Or Town?
 
Oh, it’s Puerta del Sol!
@Cerberus Oh right.
Now you have streets. :)
 
I don't think we have a strong idiomatic term for the central square of a city.
 
5:16 PM
We do say the “Town Square”.
 
A village has a dorpsplein, that is pretty strong and idiomatic.
You could say stadsplein for a stad, but it's not what you would say if you were in the stad.
You could say hoofdplein, that would be the best translation. But it is not used the way it is in Spanish.
 
No.
That’s the Plaza Mayor. No cars.
 
You could say centraal plein. It is clear. It is perhaps slightly better than hoofdplein.
Madrid looks nice.
 
I am certain you would like it.
I imagine you would also like Barcelona and Sevilla and Lisboa, too.
As for Sitges, no me atrevo imaginarte allá. :)
In those four main cities, I am referring to the architecture, the history, and the general “vida callejera” that prevails there.
There is a conviviality unseen in the north of Europe.
 
5:32 PM
how many houses will it be?
 
Very nice.
How about Mediaeval architecture?
 
@JohanLarsson that should be stupid and ugly.
 
I have only been to Granada.
And Malaga, technically.
 
@Cerberus Madrid is a new city. Look to Toledo or Sevilla.
 
5:44 PM
@tchrist I know.
Looks very nice; how old is it?
 
The Alcázar of Seville (Spanish "Reales Alcázares de Sevilla" or "Royal Alcazars of Seville", (Spanish pronunciation: [alˈkaθar])) is a royal palace in Seville, Spain, originally a Moorish fort. The palace is renowned as one of the most beautiful in Spain, being the most outstanding example of mudéjar architecture found on the Iberian Peninsula. The upper levels of the Alcázar are still used by the royal family as the official Seville residence and are administered by the Patrimonio Nacional. It is the oldest royal palace still in use in Europe, and was registered in 1987 by UNESCO as a Wor...
A lot of construction happened in the Renaissance, although it antedates that.
If you want medieval or earlier, I can find those.
 
That is Alhambra, isn't it?
 
It is.
 
I was there when it was covered in snow.
Which is said to happen once every twenty years.
Although, in the current climate...
 
Rare, but the Sierra Nevada has snow in summer.
That’s Segovia; old enough for you? :)
Oh wait, you wanted medieval, not first century. :)
 
5:50 PM
Hmm that doesn't look Carthaginian...
But it will do.
 
The places that have new cathedrals are different from the old romanic ones.
That that one is obviously pre-Gothic-style. Here’s the Roman bridge in front of the New Cathedral of Salamanca:
Ávila is ancient:
An entire walled city.
Its cathedral is in the old style:
And then there is Toledo, the original capital.
One of its main “Puertas’ (gates) into the city:
Or maybe not.
There.
Toledo is like a beautifully preserved work of art from a forgotten age.
People delight in soaring Gothic cathedrals with their flying buttresses, but the older castles were more protective.
It is not called Castilla for nothing: there are more castles there than you can imagine.
 
Lovely.
But a cathedral is not a castle.
 
I know, but usually when you have one you have the other.
Then there is al-Andalus, which is something else again.
Córdoba.
Which is where Seneca was born.
The foundation of his home still remains.
There are many statues to him there.
 
6:06 PM
I always wondered what the population was that the Romans subdued in Mediterranean coastal Iberia,
more Celts?
 
Phoenician, Carthaginian.
Celts in Galicia.
Or Portugal.
 
So Hannibal was trampling through co-colonists on his way around to get to Rome?
 
@FaheemMitha :)
 
> During the Second Punic War, an expanding Roman Republic captured Carthaginian trading colonies along the Mediterranean coast from roughly 210 to 205 BCE. It took the Romans nearly two centuries to complete the conquest of the Iberian Peninsula, though they had control of it for over six centuries. Roman rule was bound together by law, language, and the Roman road.
 
6:09 PM
OK but those were Philistine colonists...who was there that the Carthaginians had conquered? thinned out tribes of Celts just like Transalpine Gaul when Caesar ran it over?
 
> The largest groups inhabiting the Iberian Peninsula before the Roman conquest were the Iberians and the Celts. The Iberians inhabited the Mediterranean side of the peninsula, from the northeast to the southeast.
> The Celts inhabited much of the inner and Atlantic sides of the peninsula, from the northwest to the southwest. Basques occupied the western area of the Pyrenees mountain range and adjacent areas, the Tartessians were in the southwest and the Lusitanians and Vettones occupied areas in the central west. A number of trading settlements of Phoenicians, Greeks and Carthaginians developed on the Mediterranean coast.
There have been people on the Iberian Peninsula for at least 1.2 million years that we know of.
MILLION
 
OK. I'm just wondering about population, like how easy it was to take over.
 
It took Rome almost two centuries.
Obviously a pushover.
 
haha. the maquis.
what is that en espagnol?
 
El maquis, vocablo que devino sinónimo de "resistente", designa a grupos de guerrilleros que formaban parte de la denominada Resistencia francesa, siendo su presencia particularmente activa en las zonas montañosas de Bretaña y del sur de Francia donde hostigaron a las fuerzas del Régimen de Vichy y a la Wehrmacht del Tercer Reich. En España es el nombre genérico adoptado por la historiografía, por el que se conoce a los grupos armados clandestinos que practicaron las técnicas de combate de guerrilla especialmente en el medio rural y natural, como bosques o zonas montañosas, durante la Guerra Civil...
 
crl
6:14 PM
prendre le maquis
 
> Archaeological and genetic evidence suggests that the Iberian Peninsula acted as one of several major refugia from which northern Europe was repopulated following the end of the last ice age.
 
crl
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition
 
6:40 PM
Haha, someone is messing with the stars in this room.
I see that a message with 2 stars has no more stars now. =)
Just an observation, nothing more.
 
6:53 PM
@tchrist Or Gaul.
And Greeks on the coast.
 
Hello.
 
Hello @Mahnax.
 
Hi Jasper. You've actually said hello before I've left this time! :)
 
I don't feel good. Maybe I will email you soon.
 
Sure, you can do that anytime of course.
 
6:55 PM
Is school OK?
 
Busy, but OK, yes.
 
@tchrist Really, that long? What kind of homines?
Certainly no sapientes?
 
The prehistory of the Iberian Peninsula begins with the arrival of the first hominins 1.2 million years ago and ends with the Punic Wars, when the territory enters the domains of written history. In this long period, some of its most significant landmarks were to host the last stand of the Neanderthal people, to develop some of the most impressive Paleolithic art, alongside with southern France, to be the seat of the earliest civilisations of Western Europe and finally to become a most desired colonial objective due to its strategic position and its many mineral riches. == Lower and Middl...
 
@Mahnax Good good. I am happy that you are happy.
 
I must needs run.
Ajuus!
 
7:00 PM
This is a list of the Pre-Roman people of the Iberian peninsula (the Roman Hispania, i. e., modern Portugal, Spain and Andorra). Some closely fit the concept of a people, ethnic group or tribe. Others are confederations or even unions of tribes. == Non-Indo-European speakers == === Aquitanians === Airenosini/Arenosii Iacetani Vascones === Iberians === Andosini Ausetani Bastetani/Bastuli Mastieni in and around Mastia territory (Cartagena) Bergistani/Bergusii Castellani Cessetani/Cossetani Ceretani Contestani Deitani in and around Ilici territory (today's Elx/Elche) Edetani Ilercavone...
The Astures or Asturs, also named 'Astyrs', were the Hispano-Celtic inhabitants of the northwest area of Hispania that now comprises almost the entire modern autonomous community of Asturias, the modern province of León, and the northern part of the modern province of Zamora (all in Spain), and east of Trás os Montes in Portugal. They were a horse-riding highland cattle-raising people who lived in circular huts of stone drywall construction. The Albiones were a major tribe from western Asturias. Isidore of Seville, gave an etymology as coming from a river Asturia, identified by David Magie with...
> Recent epigraphic studies suggest that they spoke a ‘Q-Celtic’ language akin to the neighbouring Gallaeci Lucenses and Braccarenses (see Gallaecia).[7] According to classic authors, their family structure was matrilineal, whereby the woman inherits the ownership of property.
> The Astures lived in hill forts, established in strategic areas and built with round walls in today's Asturias and the mountainous areas of León, and with rectangular walls in flatter areas, similarly to their fellow Galicians. Their warrior class consisted of men and women and both sexes were considered fierce fighters.[4]
I find the involvement of women very interesting.
The Paleohispanic scripts are the writing systems created in the Iberian peninsula before the Latin alphabet became the dominant script. Most of them are unusual in that they are semi-syllabic rather than purely alphabetic, despite having supposedly developed, in part, from the Phoenician alphabet. Paleohispanic scripts are known to have been used from the 5th century BCE — possibly from the 7th century, in the opinion of some researchers — until the end of the 1st century BCE or the beginning of the 1st century CE, and were the main scripts used to write the Paleohispanic languages. Some researchers...
@Mahnax Is life wonderful?
 
crl
 
@crl “All roads lead to Perl.”
 
@tchrist Wonderful? No. But I have a roof over my head and food in the fridge, my tuition is paid, and I have a regular job and classes to attend. So I really can't complain. :) things are fine. Is your life wonderful? Or are you referring to life as a whole? If so, then yes, because life is pretty damn cool.
 
@Mahnax Oh, I’m sure your life is wonderful. I was wondering whether you knew it. :)
 
Oh gotta run! Bye bye.
 
7:09 PM
bye
!
 
Hello everyone
 
7:42 PM
Total silence!
How are you @tchrist?
 
@tchrist So computers can be male or female en español?
 
crl
el ordenador / la maquina
 
el computador, la computadora I guess girl computers are hotter.
 
el ordenador looks like The french word: ordinateur
 
7:58 PM
Hello @hanaa.
 
crl
@Hanaa that's why I chose it :)
 
a ha
 
Hi
 
crl
aïe
 
It's 4 am here.
 
8:04 PM
Too early there@ABeautifulMind
 
@Hanaa I didn't know Algeria was in Africa until I checked.
 
Yes
 
Africa makes me think of elephants.
 
We don't have elephants in Algeria
 
@Cerberus We can. See, I knew what it said! swoons with delight
 
8:06 PM
There are elephants in the zoo here.
 
Nice
I prayed for you @ABeautifulMind
 
@Hanaa Thanks.
 
Wlcm!
 
There used to be lions and elephants in North Africa
 
There are mosquitoes here.
 
8:12 PM
Yes@Mitch
 
The mosquito that bit me ten times has stopped. I think it has disappeared.
 
Someone changed his avatar picture
Gotta go , bye
 
8:52 PM
@ABeautifulMind Mosquitos as big as elephants and the bite of a lion
 
9:14 PM
@Robusto Only kinda sorta. The gender is perfectly predictable from the suffix: -or is masculine and -ora is feminine. In Spain it is usually el ordenador or sometimes la computadora, but in Mexico el computador is more common. Note that the -ra versions of things usually assume a missing máquina: máquina computadora, máquina lavandera.
 
[ SmokeDetector ] Offensive answer detected: Are "egotistical" and "egocentric" synonyms? by Passerby on english.stackexchange.com
 
@SmokeDetector Nurse! He’s off his rocker again!
 
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