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12:00 AM
Let's see a picture of you at graduation.
 
@Robusto I have heard this very disagreement. It is not general.
 
Pictures or it didn't happen!
 
@Robusto Yeah...in a reserved, very qualified way, sure. But many newspaper articles about anthropological and socio-psychological studies are bullshit too...
 
@tchrist The term "general" refers to Mitch's statement, which should be obvious from the sentence it resides in.
@Cerberus Yes. That's why they call them the "soft" sciences.
 
scholarship ≠ science
 
12:02 AM
@Robusto Oh, they can do good work. But the stuff that is quoted most is ehm of the lowest quality.
They are all about quantifying the unquantifiable, in a meaningless way.
 
Yes. It is just the sensationalistic stuff that gets published in mass-market venues.
 
Yeah.
But their "academic" culture has been perverted to some degree to encourage this.
A friend of mine told me more about this.
They place to much value in the h-index and such.
They started early.
 
Even the "hard" sciences are not immune to this kind of thing.
 
"Even"—they're highly vulnerable.
 
We hear all about the 11 dimensions that are predicted by string theory (or whatever you want to call it), yet if science is about what can be proven, string theory is not science at all.
 
12:06 AM
It is a bit harder to come up with bogus data, thankfully.
 
And it turns out that the extra dimensions are simply analogous to the dimensions that we do understand and experience every day.
Ten dimensions? Not enough! Eleven dimensions? Ah, perfection!
They even had to prove that relativity was true, and Einstein was worried that the experiments wouldn't bear him out.
 
Was he?
 
Not so with string theorists. Or brane monkeys. Or whatever.
@Cerberus Yup. But it looked dodgy at first.
> The early accuracy, however, was poor. The results were argued by some[15] to have been plagued by systematic error and possibly confirmation bias, although modern reanalysis of the dataset[16] suggests that Eddington's analysis was accurate.[17][18]
> The measurement was repeated by a team from the Lick Observatory in the 1922 eclipse, with results that agreed with the 1919 results[18] and has been repeated several times since, most notably in 1973 by a team from the University of Texas. Considerable uncertainty remained in these measurements for almost fifty years, until observations started being made at radio frequencies.
At its introduction in 1915, the general theory of relativity did not have a solid empirical foundation. It was known that it correctly accounted for the "anomalous" precession of the perihelion of Mercury and on philosophical grounds it was considered satisfying that it was able to unify Newton's law of universal gravitation with special relativity. That light appeared to bend in gravitational fields in line with the predictions of general relativity was found in 1919 but it was not until a program of precision tests was started in 1959 that the various predictions of general relativity ...
But anyway, the point is, people just make shit up, and if you don't do repeatable research you can't claim anything is as advertised.
 
Right.
I do not dispute that.
 
> Sitting Bull, a Captain McGarry claimed, could read Frech, and after studying Napoleon's military tactics had "modeled his generalship after the little Corsican Corporal. Others claimed that Sitting Bull was actually a hirsute white man named "Bison" McLeanwho had graduated from West Point in 1848 and subsequently been court-martialed for dishonorable conduct.
All this by way of explaining how the hero Custer could have lost to an Indian.
 
12:16 AM
I don't know much about American history.
 
I don't know much about Dutch history.
 
But I'm sure that research is biased!
 
I don't know much / but I know I love you / that may be / all I need to know
 
@Robusto I'm not an expert either.
 
I’ve just learned that the Euphausiacea order of critters derives its name from the Greek for “ooh pretty shiny-shiny!”.
 
12:17 AM
I mostly came in to be excited that I've written UNIX programs.
 
It is an exciting hobby.
 
Well done.
 
Or did you wish for us to excite you?
Your sentence has two readings.
 
She sells C-shells by the C-shore.
 
@tchrist You may if you'd like, but I'm plenty excited.
 
12:18 AM
You must be Bourne again to enter the kingdom of Unix!
 
to... share my excitement
 
Aww, too Korny?
 
what's that I hear? oh yes, the roflcopter approacheth!
 
bashes Rob shamelessly
 
Nobody enjoys Unix humor. sad face
I've been shelling out good money for these jokes, and no one appreciates it.
Oh well, I guess I'll just dump them in the bin, etc.
 
12:21 AM
@Robusto 🐼⃠
 
I don't know anything about such things.
And I'm a bit tipsy.
 
@tchrist !panda? sad panda?
 
Panda NOT!
 
\N{PANDA FACE}\N{COMBINING ENCLOSING CIRCLE BACKSLASH}
 
I saw thems
This is a no-panda zone. Balrogs only.
one does not simply telnet into Mordor! (too late?)
 
12:23 AM
That way is barred.
You must use ssh tunnelling.
 
Balrogs ftw!!!
 
Do you know that most of my life I thought FTW meant “Fuck, that’s wild!”?
 
Most of my life I had never heard of this acronym.
 
I thought it was Fuck the World early on
(which doesn't make sense)
 
I think we need a new demon to pick on. How about balfrogs?
 
12:26 AM
Not the same thing.
 
Hence the term "new" demon.
If I wanted the old demon I would have said balrog.
 
I suggest Orcus.
 
New is bad.
 
Or perhaps Demogorgon.
Who is not a demi-Gorgon.
 
I remember Orcus was some kind of evil force in this fantasy book. I only later got to know the Latin meaning.
 
12:29 AM
Orcus is the fictional demon prince, and lord of the undead in many campaign settings for the Dungeons & Dragons fantasy role-playing game. He is named after Orcus of Roman mythology. His symbol is a mace with a human skull as the head. Orcus is one of the most detailed demon lords of the Dungeons and Dragons game and one of a small handful to be detailed in every edition of the game. Orcus was also named as one of the greatest villains in D&D history by the final print issue of Dragon. Publication history Dungeons & Dragons (1974-1976) Orcus was first presented in the Eldritch Wizardry ...
 
No, no.
It was this book called Empire of the East or something.
 
That is correct.
By Fred Saberhagen.
I wondered why he was stealing from D&D. I still own it. Probably.
The Broken Lands, (Ace 1968)
The Black Mountains, (Ace 1971)
Changeling Earth, (DAW Feb. 1973); revised as Ardneh's World for 1979 printing, see below
Ardneh's Sword, (Tor May 2006)

Volumes 1, 2 & 3 were later published in a heavily-revised omnibus form as Empire of the East, (Ace Oct. 1979)
 
The Empire of the East series is composed of four science fiction/fantasy novels by Fred Saberhagen. Premise Some time in the future, a nuclear holocaust is averted by a computer named ARDNEH (Automatic Restoration Director – National Executive Headquarters), which initiates what is intended to be a temporary modification (later called "The Change") to the laws of physics to make nuclear explosions impossible. However, the enemy has a similar device, and when the two expanding wavefronts of The Change collide, the effect unexpectedly becomes permanent. Following The Change, most technol...
I don't remember that much about it, except that the magical battle between Orcus and some magicians was well done.
 
“Temporary modification to the laws of physics”. Great idea, that.
 
Have you ever read Modesitt?
He had some good descriptions of magic too.
The story itself was otherwise fairly lame, and the style was ehm never mind.
 
12:34 AM
I am not certain whether I have read Modesitt.
 
The island of Recluce?
The black island.
Black is metal, order. White is chaos.
The white wizards were to be feared.
 
No, haven’t. Yet I feel certain I’ve read something of his.
 
His main series is al about this.
Man, my back muscles are hurting.
I rode my bike with an umbrella in my hand, by the way.
But then you are a disloyal umbrella hater.
 
My hands have better things to do.
2
 
I couldn't appear on a date wet.
Or sweaty with funny clothes on.
 
12:41 AM
The semi-blind date? How was it?
 
It was OK, but not great.
 
I don't think we had a super match. But he's a nice guy.
The feeling is probably mutual.
 
No second chances?
 
I wouldn't say no to a second date, but I'm not going to initiate one.
 
12:43 AM
OIC
 
And neither will he, in all probability.
You know that kind of date?
 
salutes Mitch
@Cerberus not really. I'm a serial monogamist.
 
@cornbreadninja Really? But then how do you find suitable candidates?
 
@Robusto I am awesome like that.
 
@Cerberus common places of interest. Coffeehouses. More recently and presently, school.
 
12:47 AM
@cornbreadninja But...
 
conjunction junction!
 
Surely you would need some kind of date to determine suitability?
 
@Cerberus Most of what he said he didn't say. He didn't -claim- that language determines thought and said pretty wishy-washy things like language (grammar) influences thought 'somewhat' but doesn't really determine thought.
 
@Cerberus I guess I spend too much time talking to them first.
 
@Mitch I haven't read anything of what he wrote, but most of the stuff I hear about him looks questionable, that's all I know.
 
12:49 AM
Like Tim... we had Java together. Despite many open seats, he sat next to me. He was in my line of sight to the teacher, and looked at interesting things on the internet. He kept appearing in my thoughts. One day, I talked to him.
A few classes after that, we spent about two hours in the parking lot and then went to dinner.
 
That's great.
Dinner = date!
 
Only sort of.
 
How was that not a date?
 
We would go to a playground and swing after class, and then talk in one of our cars until midnight.
 
That's nice.
But the dinner...
 
12:50 AM
We didn't touch each other for like three weeks of all this time together.
Actually, I invited him over before that even happened.
 
That's fine, but...
All of this smells like dating!
 
I was getting to the point of oh my god, kiss me already. But it was nice to wait.
 
Hehe.
I understand.
 
@Cerberus but I wasn't seeing anyone else during this time.
I've never played the field. They never told me where it was.
In fact, I hadn't dated anyone in nearly three excruciating, character-building years.
I really, really didn't mean to kill the SF discussion.
 
@cornbreadninja Haha.
@cornbreadninja Still dating!
 
12:53 AM
Q: Ya gettin' any on the side? A: Haven't had any in so long, I didn't know they moved it!
@Cerberus okay, but
 
Haha.
 
if neither of you are seeing anyone else, and don't really want to, it's like just-add-swingset instant monogamy.
From the point where he started occupying my mind onward, I wasn't interested in anyone else. I had no other prospects, anyway.
 
Well...if you don't date a lot, chances are that you will not see anyone else when you're dating someone.
Jinx.
 
This Coke's for you.
I don't know. I have a mental type, but not a physical one.
It's easy to spot.
 
@Cerberus He (Whorf) was quite the linguist. He graduated from MIT as a chemical engineer and had a job in fire prevention, but he wrote extensively on language. He became a student of Sapir's in the 30's after having acquired a lot of self taught knowledge on Native American Indian languages
 
12:56 AM
@cornbreadninja Thanks!
@cornbreadninja Yeah.
 
@Cerberus the sapir-whorf hypothesis is questionable, both as a testable hypothesis and as something to draw conclusions from (it goes in that weird direction of determinism that could lead to ethnocentrism (e.g. "we are better because we speak X")
 
@Mitch I'm sorry, but they don't have a great reputation. I have read about them, and they got lots of criticism.
@Mitch Right.
Lots of factual errors and flawed methodology, for one thing.
 
@Cerberus of the kind that most linguists and anthropologist also did at that time.
 
Yes.
Anthropology and social psychology have some problems.
 
psychology
 
1:03 AM
You probably know about Margaret Mead...
 
the quasi humanitarian sciences
social sciences?
 
Other branches of psychology have a much better reputation.
 
yes.
now they do.
 
But not poor Margaret Mead.
 
she doesn't have a good reputation?
 
1:12 AM
Alas, no.
She interviewed lots of girls on Pacific islands.
Asked them questions about promiscuous sex.
The girls answered "yes" to most of what she asked, shy and giggling.
 
For what reason? I've only ever heard god things about her. There was a controversy about 15 years ago about 'Coming of age in Samoa', a book purporting to debunk eberything she said.
 
Later they said that little of what they answered had been true.
Yes, that.
 
Ah...you've heard all that. It turned out it was nonsense. The guy who was trying to debunk her only ever talked to the king men...the old men were the ones who contradicted that the girls said that.
 
@cornbreadninja is that a metaphor or really a box that has been flattened.
 
1:15 AM
@Mitch tragedy & comedy by the dumpster, I call it
that is exactly how I found it
 
Ehm, well, everything I heard said that there was a consensus that mostly disagreed with her conclusions.
 
Sure the -kings- didn't like that the teenage girls were talking about sex.
 
Sorry. disappears again
 
My friend studied this extensively in classes and papers about the history of science.
 
@cornbreadninja notes shifty eyed look. Oh? you say you -found- it that way?
 
1:16 AM
Even if she turns out to be 100 % correct, her reputation is not good now.
 
@Mitch yes. I was tempted to move the stick mouth to center.
 
@Cerberus I have to disagree about the consensus:
"Generally, Freeman's critique has not been accepted in the anthropological community."
John Derek Freeman (15 August 1916, Wellington, – 6 July 2001, Canberra) was a New Zealand anthropologist best known for his criticism of Margaret Mead's work in Samoan society, as described in her 1928 ethnography Coming of Age in Samoa. His effort "ignited controversy of a scale, visibility, and ferocity never before seen in anthropology." Freeman initially became interested in Boasian cultural anthropology while an undergraduate in Wellington, and later went to live and work as a teacher in Samoa. After entering the New Zealand Naval Reserve in World War II, he did graduate trainin...
 
Anthropology itself doesn't have a great reputation, along with social psychology.
I meant the consensus outside anthropology.
 
" I have taught about the controversy for the last 18 years and am still impressed by the fact that a 24-year-old woman could produce a study so far ahead of its time. Dr. Freeman studied a different island 20 years after Mead's research, and his notion that biology is more determinative than culture is oversimplified. Most serious scholarship casts grave doubt on his data and theory.[30]"

"A detailed account published in 2009 contradicts the New York Times obituary, and concludes that Freeman cherry-picked his data and misrepresented both Mead and Samoan culture."
 
@Mitch They could be twin sisters!
 
1:22 AM
Derek was a dude.
 
But the pictures!
@Mitch It is very well possible that much of her research was sound.
Perhaps it was just her interpretations.
Or the way people paraphrased her.
But in any case her reputation suffered.
 
What does the fact that the Samoan girls may have hoaxed Mead say about their innocence, though?
 
They're naughty either way!
 
"Mead made up the whole thing to cover up her own salacious affairs. the slut."
 
With the girls?
 
1:34 AM
:O
 
zing!
 
That is...interesting.
 
no.
 
No?
 
the teenagers were informants. it was probably some dutch photographer...
 
1:35 AM
Oh!
Which one?
 
And why did she do it?
 
hm..i'm mixing up my goddesses of science
OK off to wikipedia the source of all that's questionable.
 
Yes, yes...
 
1:39 AM
I was mixing Mead up with Goodall (with chimpanzees) who met and married van Lawick (a nature photographer) while in Africa.
ah but coincidence...
Mead had an affair with ... guess who...
Edward Sapir before leaving for Samoa
I can't find any evidence for an affair while she was in Samoa, but I remember hearing about that from somewhere.
 
@Mitch Oh God.
 
@Cerberus Why did -who- do -what-?
 
Ehm I don't remember, honestly.
Too drunk.
@Mitch So what is your relation to anthropology?
 
@Cerberus if anything, her reputation is as good as it ever was, because Freeman's failed attack bolstered her claims (that's how science works)
 
@cornbreadninja Hmm that sounds rather positive...I'm sure she was nice.
 
1:45 AM
@Cerberus I read a book? I make up stuff that can't be substantiated? I wear Levi-Strauss jeans?
 
@Mitch Haha, okay then. Nothing more specific?
@Mitch Perhaps her reputation is better in America than in Europe?
But we have Diederik Stapel, who is worse than anything.
Not at all comparable to Mead.
 
@Cerberus stapel is the guy who plagiarized?
the one who was dumb enough to get caught?
@cornbreadninja art verite
 
@Mitch Yup.
 
OK..how do you do an e' with sharp accent (aigu)?
Alt-###?
which numbers?
 
I...use Autohotkey.
é
You can copy-paste this at your convenience.
alt-0233
OMG my hands remembered from back when I didn't have Autohotkey!
 
1:52 AM
hm...mac keyboard is not letting me
 
Aww.
 
I don't know, dude. Cultures can change in 20 years.
 
Yes, they can.
 

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