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3:24 AM
0
Q: What is the difference between "unbeliever" and "disbeliever"

yasar11732I am asking this question because of this http://islam.stackexchange.com/a/2158/44 It seems that "unbeliever" can be used for a person "who does not believe" whereas "disbeliever" can be used for a person "who is presented and rejected". The prefix "dis" can be used for rejection (compa...

I certainly don’t want my name on a close vote against Islam!
 
Haha.
 
If I told you to enter ^Vu on your keyboard, how many characters would you think I intended for you to enter? I just told a Windows user to do this, and they got the wrong answer.
 
Two?
 
Yes.
They thought I meant three.
I think they are not used to ^V meaning to enter a literal.
Like ^V^H to get a literal backspace rather than to kill the character before.
 
Control-V is paste to me?
So paste, then type "u".
 
3:38 AM
Hm.
Unix uses middle button to paste. It uses control character for typing.
 
What is ^Vu supposed to do?
 
Oh, on a Mac you can use Command-V for pasting. I forgot.
@Mahnax By itself, nothing. But in the vim editor, it allows you to enter a Unicode codepoint by number if you can't figure out how to do Unicode entry in your O/S. You type ^VuXXXX for four hex digits for the number.
 
@tchrist Ah, OK.
 
It doesn't work with 5- and 6-digit codepoints. I forget how to do that. I use the mouse.
@Mahnax I think the Mac comes standard with these things, but I seem to have used the ports tree to install my own.
macbook# which vim
/opt/local/bin/vim
macbook# which vi
/opt/local/bin/vi
macbook# which nvi
/opt/local/bin/nvi
Ah yes, there are standard versions in /usr/bin/vi and /usr/bin/vim.
I just must have installed later versions using the ports.
 
@tchrist I think it does. I routinely use control+D for delete, since my laptop doesn't have a delete button.
And by delete I mean the forward delete, not backspace.
 
3:43 AM
^D for delete? Where?
In what program?
^D is usually EOF.
I can't think of a program where it means delete.
 
Anywhere, really.
 
That doesn't mean there isn't one.
 
It's working in Safari.
 
Really??
 
It works in TextEdit and Word, too.
 
3:43 AM
Oh oh oh.
 
IIRC.
 
Never saw that.
 
@Mahnax Your laptop doesn't have a delete button??
 
C'est magnifique, non?
@Cerberus Nein.
 
You're right.
 
3:44 AM
Well, it does.
 
How is that possible? flabbergasted
 
The delete key is not under the homerow.
 
But not the forward delete.
 
That makes it useless.
 
Wot?
 
3:44 AM
Anything you need to look for on a keyboard with your eyes is ipso facto touch-typist–hostile.
A touch-typist types without looking.
 
I can do control+D without looking.
 
Yes, BINGO!
That is exactly correct.
 
Oh, I see what you mean now.
You're saying the delete key is useless.
Amirite gais ?
 
And that is why it beats the patutes off of a delete key over in some Megellanic cloud.
 
Yes.
 
3:46 AM
I usually type in vi mode, so I forget the GUI things.
Even my shell is in vi mode for input.
That doesn't help in other programs, but still, it is the best way. It is optimal for editing text as a touch typist. Minimal keystrokes, and you don't have to look to edit.
It does take a few days to get used to, maybe a week.
Even my mom uses it.
 
How about functions that you don't use every day?
 
@tchrist Do you have Safari 6?
 
@Cerberus Me?
@Mahnax No, v5.0.6, apparently.
 
@tchrist Be thankful for that.
 
@Cerberus What about functions I don’t use everyday? You mean editing commands in my texteditor?
 
3:51 AM
They've gone all Chrome and combined the address bar with the Google search.
 
Yes, or anywhere.
 
@Mahnax Really? Why?
 
I memorize functions that I use a lot; for the rest, the mouse seems the most convenient way.
 
@Cerberus I don't quite understand the question. This is editing.
 
Clicking on buttons or menus.
 
3:51 AM
@tchrist Also, the tabs look weird. They stretch to fill the screen sideways.
 
Nothing do I despise more than buttons and mice.
 
You were talking about a shell.
 
Yes.
Why would I use buttons and mice for a shell, or an editor?
 
@tchrist I dislike it too, but I dislike having to memorize things that I don't use regularly much more.
 
That just slows me down.
I have used vi for 30 years. It has a fixed, finite number of commands, which you combine into infinitely many combinations based on your need.
 
3:53 AM
A shell is used for the stuff that I use Windows menus for, correct?
 
You only have to remember the finite number of separate commands.
 
0
Q: confused about the english

ttranI would like to know what is the differences of 2 following sentences 1) A PM (project manager) can only track so many items 2) Only PM can track so many items Is the first sentence grammatically correct ? Please clarify it for me. Thanks

 
Perhaps there is a jargon problem again.
 
A shell is for running commands.
 
> confused about the english
You bet you are.
 
3:54 AM
I am too.
 
When I type "cat /etc/passwd" or "ls *.ch | sort > output" then I am running a command in a shell.
 
Is Windows a shell?
 
No.
It is an operating system.
 
Hmm.
 
When you open a Terminal window, you have a shell.
 
3:54 AM
Windows Explorer, then?
 
No.
 
Command Prompt?
 
I have heard expressions like "graphical shell" used.
 
When you open a Terminal window, you have a shell.
@Mahnax Yes!
The shell is what gives you your command prompt.
 
I would just call that a command prompt or a terminal window.
 
3:55 AM
But the shell is unrelated to the window.
 
Hey guys I have a shell.
Isn't it pretty?
 
Then apparently people have used the word incorrectly.
 
Yes, you do.
Type ls -l.
 
Congratulations!
 
Ooh, it be listing stuff.
 
3:56 AM
Yup, that is what "ls" means.
 
I know.
I know a tiny bit of that stuff.
 
@Cerberus They have their own language.
 
I would like to learn more at some point.
 
Apparently so.
 
Do you know who to send to the pager?
"ls -l | more" is the command.
 
3:57 AM
So how does the shell metaphor work?
 
Append "| more" to any command with long output.
 
I used to use DOS all the time.
 
Or "| less", if you prefer.
The shell metaphor . . .
 
I still remember the basic commands, though I rarely have to use them any more.
 
That's a good question.
 
3:58 AM
@tchrist Yes: why is it called a "shell"?
 
I feel like I knew the answer a million years ago.
 
I thought it covered the inner workings of something more hardcore.
 
It is probably something super simple.
Just a second.
 
And DOS was a non-graphical shell.
 
No, DOS is not a shell.
It is an operating system.
 
3:59 AM
All right, it has shells or a shell, then.
 
A Unix shell is a command-line interpreter or shell that provides a traditional user interface for the Unix operating system and for Unix-like systems. Users direct the operation of the computer by entering commands as text for a command line interpreter to execute or by creating text scripts of one or more such commands. The most influential Unix shells have been the Bourne shell and the C shell. The Bourne shell, sh, was written by Stephen Bourne at AT&T as the original Unix command line interpreter; it introduced the basic features common to all the Unix shells, including piping, he...
 
The black screen where you type dir *.exe -p and such.
 
Right. A shell is a command-line interpreter. I am still looking for why it is called "shell".
> The most generic sense of the term shell means any program that users employ to type commands. A shell hides the details of the underlying operating system with the shell interface and manages the technical details of the operating system kernel interface, which is the lowest-level, or 'inner-most' component of most operating systems. In Unix-like operating systems users typically have many choices of command-line interpreters for interactive sessions.
COMMAND.EXE is a shell.
 
Ah, that is the metaphor I described.
 
That does not mean it is DOS. DOS uses COMMAND.EXE (or CMD.COM) as the shell so users can type commands.
 
4:02 AM
I know.
 
Some shells contain booty.
 
I didn't mean that.
 
@tchrist So let's say I cd into a directory, how do I go back?
 
> 14. Computers . a program providing a menu-driven or graphical user interface designed to simplify use of the operating system, as in loading application programs.
 
For in them shall you find a Perl of Great Price.
 
4:02 AM
Heh.
 
@Mahnax Well... just type "cd" without args to return to your homedir. Type "cd .." to go up a dir. You might try "cd -" to go back whence you came.
 
This ^ is more like how I have heard other people use it, where a command prompt is just one kind of a shell.
 
But the last does not work with all shells.
Just some.
 
Mac doesn't use cd.. and cd\ ?
 
Ah, danke.
 
4:04 AM
I would never think of anything graphical as a shell.
"cd .." is the parent directory.
 
The last one worked.
 
I don't know what the backslash is.
 
They all work, but the last one worked too.
 
Perhaps certain specific uses of the word have become so common as to suppress the others?
 
@Mahnax It did? Great! That is the best way, because then you always go back to wherever you came from.
 
4:04 AM
@tchrist I know.
 
"cd /" is the root directory.
"cd \" will prompt you for another line, because the \ is the escape character everywhere.
Please don't get me started.
 
I am proud of myself now.
 
cd\ goes back to root in DOS/Windows.
 
Good!
 
I just navigated to a folder on my desktop and then made a new directory there.
 
4:06 AM
@Cerberus Would you please stop forgetting the space!? It drives me nuts.
 
There is no space.
Not here.
 
That's an error.
Because the shell tokenizes by spaces.
 
If you, you will have to take it up with DOS.
 
"cd/" is one word. "cd /" is two words.
 
4:07 AM
macbook# cd/
cd/: Command not found.
Exit 1
macbook# cd /
macbook# pwd
/
macbook#
What the hell do you need pixels for? :(
 
Pixels?
 
How do I delete something?
 
del
del virus.exe
 
@Mahnax What kind of something?
 
@tchrist The directory I just made.
 
4:08 AM
rmdir
But it has to be empty.
 
Sorry, I'm just exercising my DOS commands.
 
If it is not empty, you can recursively remove everything by calling "rm -r".
 
Oh, neat. rm didn't work for me.
 
But that is dangerous.
 
I guess that was because it was a directory.
 
4:09 AM
"rm -ri" will recurse, but ask nicely.
@Mahnax Right.
macbook#
macbook# cd /tmp
macbook# mkdir stuff
macbook# rm stuff
rm: stuff: is a directory
Exit 1
macbook# rmdir stuff
macbook#
Note Unix only makes noises when it fails, not when it succeeds.
Things do what you tell them to do.
 
Why can't someone just make a Windows version based on Unix?
 
Have your read Neal Stephenson’s In the Beginning . . ."?
Steve Jobs did so.
Because it was easier to build a graphical interface on Unix than to fix Windows. Windows cannot be fixed.
 
"In the beginning the Universe was created.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
—Douglas Adams
 
Not that one, actually. Lemme find it for you.
 
All right, but can't someone make a version that is compatible with Windows programs?
 
4:12 AM
Grab that, and read it. When you get to the Hole Hawg, you will understand.
@Cerberus Install Cygwin.
 
On Unix?
Linux?
I have never heard of people using a Linux version where all games and obscure Windows programs worked.
 
Cygwin on Windows.
Wine on Linux.
The Hole Hawg is a drill made by the Milwaukee Tool Company. If you
look in a typical hardware store you may find smaller Milwaukee
drills but not the Hole Hawg, which is too powerful and too expensive
for homeowners. The Hole Hawg does not have the pistol-like design
of a cheap homeowner's drill. It is a cube of solid metal with a
handle sticking out of one face and a chuck mounted in another. The
cube contains a disconcertingly potent electric motor. You can hold
the handle and operate the trigger with your index finger, but
During the Eighties I did some construction work. One day, another
worker leaned a ladder against the outside of the building that we
were putting up, climbed up to the second-story level, and used the
Hole Hawg to drill a hole through the exterior wall. At some point,
the drill bit caught in the wall. The Hole Hawg, following its one
and only imperative, kept going. It spun the worker's body around
like a rag doll, causing him to knock his own ladder down. Fortunately
he kept his grip on the Hole Hawg, which remained lodged in the
I myself used a Hole Hawg to drill many holes through studs, which
it did as a blender chops cabbage. I also used it to cut a few
six-inch-diameter holes through an old lath-and-plaster ceiling. I
chucked in a new hole saw, went up to the second story, reached
down between the newly installed floor joists, and began to cut
through the first-floor ceiling below. Where my homeowner's drill
had labored and whined to spin the huge bit around, and had stalled
at the slightest obstruction, the Hole Hawg rotated with the stupid
 
Okay, bed time!
Good night, gents!
 
But I never blamed the Hole Hawg; I blamed myself. The Hole Hawg
is dangerous because it does exactly what you tell it to. It is not
bound by the physical limitations that are inherent in a cheap
drill, and neither is it limited by safety interlocks that might
be built into a homeowner's product by a liability-conscious
manufacturer. The danger lies not in the machine itself but in the
user's failure to envision the full consequences of the instructions
he gives to it.
Good night.
 
Bye!
 
4:17 AM
A smaller tool is dangerous too, but for a completely different
reason: it tries to do what you tell it to, and fails in some way
that is unpredictable and almost always undesirable. But the Hole
Hawg is like the genie of the ancient fairy tales, who carries out
his master's instructions literally and precisely and with unlimited
power, often with disastrous, unforeseen consequences.
Bye!
Unix is the Hole Hawg of operating systems, and Unix hackers, like
Doug Barnes and the guy in the Dilbert cartoon and many of the other
people who populate Silicon Valley, are like contractor's sons who
grew up using only Hole Hawgs. They might use Apple/Microsoft OSes
to write letters, play video games, or balance their checkbooks,
but they cannot really bring themselves to take these operating
systems seriously.
 
@Cerberus Nighty-night!
 
End of Story.
Which is why Unix never says sorry.
It is the genie who carries out his master’s instructions literally, precisely, and with unlimited power.
 
@Mahnax Ciao!
 
It does not chatter at you when you tell it to do something. Like a good servant, it simply does as it was told.
Only when it fails does it report back.
A good servant is quiet.
 
Unix should be seen and not heard.
 
4:20 AM
I like Linux in the abstract, I really do. It is just not practical for me to switch. But I encourage it.
 
Just like children.
 
:)
 
Hehe. Luckily, I rarely raise my voice, unless I am at work, in which case I routinely shout.
 
@Mahnax And what do you think is running your Mac?
Unix is the silent genie in your box.
 
@tchrist I'm not ignorant or uninformed!
 
4:21 AM
Every have an application freeze up on you?
 
I am well aware of the Unix in my Mac.
@tchrist On occasion.
 
Yes, but it is silent.
 
I get an error report when they do.
 
And have you ever had trouble making it go away?
 
Maybe once or twice.
 
4:21 AM
Sometimes I have program freeze up.
If you know their number, you can type "kill NUMBER" in the shell, and they will die.
Immediately.
Instantly.
 
Wow.
Just like that?
 
Yes.
They can defend themselves, but few do.
But there in an indefensible version: "kill -KILL <NUMBER>"
You add "-KILL" and by definition it cannot be caught or ignored.
It dies.
 
Nice.
 
But I haven't found a normal Mac program yet that needed the extra kick.
The other unstoppable signal (that's what kill sends) is the stop signal: "kill -STOP <NUMBER>".
 
Where do I find the numbers?
 
4:25 AM
You can get a list of available signals by typing "kill -l".
 
I might just test this on a program that's working fine, is that an issue?
 
You can get a list of process ID numbers by typing "ps", with args. Like "ps axu"
No, it will die.
No issue. Just immediate obedience.
 
What should I use for the args?
 
To ps?
 
Yeah.
 
4:26 AM
Well, you can use "ps ax" to get them all.
There are many.
If you just want yours, use "ps x".
You can also use "ps axu" or "ps axl".
Each of those letters means something. You can learn what each means by typing "man ps".
 
Hey, it worked!
I killed Microsoft Word.
 
Any program will be documented via its manpage.
Oh yes. Microsoft programs do not understand signals.
They merely obey them.
It may be able to recover any temp files when you start it up again. Depends on the program.
What I love about it is how instantaneous it is.
And how they never give you any lip.
Remember that you can learn how to run any Unix program by running the "man" program and giving that Unix program's name as the argument. So "man ls", "man ps", "man ls", even "man man".
And you can tell that whoever thought up these command names didn't like to type. :)
That's why it's "rm" not "remove".
That's why it's "cp" not "copy".
If you run "ls /bin" you will learn many of the very most basic of command names.
If you run "ls /usr/bin" you will learn many of slightly fancier commands.
It's really a different way of interacting with the computer. It's like being the conductor of an orchestra, not just someone sitting in the audience.
Or being able to make your own supper instead of asking the waiter to bring you something.
 
@tchrist "I see out nonbrillante fellow got no satisfaction while I was gone"
Ума нет, считай калека
 
Didn't, did you?
 
Have fun
 
4:38 AM
@brilliant You should only use that on @Reg. The rest of us are too crippled to understand you.
 
New favourite command: !!
 
Yes. Uparrow may work too, but !! you can use as part of another command.
!$ is the last arg of the last command.
!^ is the first arg of the last command.
!* is all the args of the last command.
!! is the whole last command in toto.
I learned all this as an undergraduate, and it all still works.
 
Nice consistency, eh?
 
There is a method to the madness, yes.
If you learn how to search for strings in files, you will learn that ^ is the beginning of the line, $ is at the end, etc.
So "grep '^foo' file1 file2" finds lines beginning with "foo" in those two files.
And grep 'foo$' * finds the lines ending with foo in all files in the current directory.
 
So you can narrow down a large directory to a bunch of files with the same extension?
 
4:43 AM
Like ls *.txt, yes.
 
OK, cool.
This is fun.
 
I'm glad to help you find a different kind of fun than just word play.
I started teaching this as an undergrad, too.
Who would have known it would all still work thirty years later?
Nothing from Microsoft does, I promise you that.
 
I can't say I've ever fully enjoyed a Microsoft thing.
 
If you call grep, you should use single quotes around the search string, in case you have things like * in there and such.
 
No, wait. The original Xbox wasn't too bad.
 
4:46 AM
grep is for searching for matching lines in files.
You know it is a fancy command because it takes forever to type its name: four characters long.
 
Our old Xbox still works, however many years after we bought it. Seven? Maybe.
> you piss upon my candle
I am listening to some high-quality stuff, kids.
@tchrist backs away slowly
That's four too many.
 
So ’twould appear.
 
Terminal windows can have tabs?!
I did not know this.
 
Well, you can’t just wave your hands at your servant.
Yes, they can.
So you can have multiple screens.
 
Nice.
I like this.
 
4:50 AM
Type "df -h".
 
What is it?
System usage?
 
Tell you how full your filesystems are.
 
Ah OK.
 
You can type "whatis df" to find the answer to such questions.
If you have USB drives or optical discs inserted, it will also report their usage.
 
This is really cool.
 
4:53 AM
It's really easy to learn.
 
So it would seem. Useful, too.
 
You know what "ls" does. You could put its output into a file with "ls > file".
Or you could count its lines with "ls | wc".
 
Wait, I can edit files from a shell?
 
In fact, you can count anything's lines. "df | wc", or "man man | wc".
That's the only way I ever ever ever do it.
However it is too late at night for me to teach you an editor. :(
 
Aww.
Maybe some other time?
 
4:56 AM
The pipe symbol connects commands together. "df | wc" runs the output of the "df" command into the input of the "wc" command.
@Mahnax Yes, I would be glad to.
 
@tchrist Thanks!
 
"wc" reports lines, words, and bytes.
 
In that order?
 
"wc -l" is just lines, "wc -w" is just words, "wc -c" is just bytes, from back when a byte could hold any character.
Yes, in that order.
"wc file" runs it on a file.
 
Makes sense.
 
4:57 AM
@tchrist "You should only use that on @Reg. The rest of us are too crippled to understand you" - simply tchrist!
 
"wc *.txt" runs it on all those files.
@brilliant I’m sure you mean something by that, but if you expect me to know what that is, you’ll have to be more expressive.
@Mahnax I need to go to sleep now. Have fun with your new toys.
 
@tchrist Thanks, and good night!
 
See ya!
 
5:14 AM
@tchrist I am just as much expressive as you are.
 
 
3 hours later…
8:07 AM
morning chilblains
 
8:45 AM
So still is an adverb. What kind of phrase "still working" is? Adjective phrase? — Jim Thio 42 mins ago
 
I will still your beating heart
 
The deeper I dig into this user's history, the more questions I find where he completely ignores the answer he accepts and then asks the exact same question all over again in the comments.
 
How odd.
 

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