English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

1:00 PM

@Cerberus ditties, as in dites? No, that can't be right. Ditties, as in ballads?

Is non by slyght whiche may be fugytyue
Than sonne and mone both derknynge thrugh nop:
And other planetes [something] bemes obubratyne (auce

Shall in theyr kynde shewe doloro coutenauce.

Cerberus

@Vitaly I don't see how that would fit in. Do you mean songs or bits?

KitFox

Duties.

Robusto

@Cerberus Except that is not necessarily what it actually means.

Cerberus

Oh, actually dites could work.

Robusto

1:02 PM

Anyway, gotta commute. Please proceed without me, as you've been doing till now.

Cerberus

They are made into the dust from whence they came.

KitFox

Want the Latin?

At least, I think it is the same thing in Latin, but it might just be notes.

Cerberus

@Robusto Not necessarily, but it is not uncommon to say it like this. I really don't see how a discussion about the value of etymology is needed here.

KitFox

And I don't know the keystrokes for the diacritics.

Matt Эллен

what is nop?

Cerberus

1:03 PM

@KitFox Ah yes!

Matt Эллен

is nop annoyance?

Cerberus

@KitFox No diacritics needed. Those are just a mediaeval invention that is usually stupid and nonsensical.

KitFox

Erut ligna in Sole et luna [some backward z looking thing] — Are these notes?

Cerberus

@KitFox Duties? You really think so? Hoe does that fit?

Vitaly

Sole et luna = Sun and moon

Cerberus

1:05 PM

@KitFox Ohh those thingies, yes, those are important, but I can guess most of them. The z is probably et.

Vitaly

It shall consume by diverse condition into their dites as doctors can descry (doctors are doing the descrying and writing dites based on that, apparently)

Cerberus

@KitFox And I think that is signa, a long s?

KitFox

Gellis.Merci.xin.In illis diebz post tribulacoez illam sol [s?]tenebrabit.et luna no dabit splendore suu.

@Cerberus I don't know.

Does any of this even make sense?

Tenebrabit is shadowy or something, right?

Tribulacoez would be annoyed, troubled, like tribulation?

Anyway, there's more:

Cerberus

In illis diebus tribulationem illam sol tenebrabit, et luna non dabit splendore sua.

@KitFox Yes.

KitFox

et Gelle celi erut cadentes. [little z thing] virtutes celo[n?] mouebunt.

RegDwight ΒВBẞ8

1:09 PM

What is this grammar?

Cerberus

What do you see when you say [s?] and [n?]?

Matt Эллен

@RegDwightΒВBẞ8 we were talking about English, Cerb insisted on bringing us down to his level

Cerberus

Could Gelle be stelle?

KitFox

et tuc videbut filiu hois veniete in nubibz celi cu potestate magna et maiestate [z thing c with dots over it].

Cerberus

@KitFox Tribulation, yes.

KitFox

1:10 PM

@Cerberus Oh, yes, of course.

RegDwight ΒВBẞ8

@Cerberus gelle is the German word for "innit", while "Stelle" is the German word for "place". So, no.

Cerberus

Et tunc videbunt filium venientem in nubibus cum potestate magna et maiestate et (cum?)

RegDwight ΒВBẞ8

0

Q: What is the difference between "task" and "assigment"?

These words don't have "exact" matches in portuguese, so sometimes I got confussed about their usage. When it is more suitable to use "task" than "assigment" and vice-versa?

word-usage

1

Q: Task, project, assignment, job. Which one is correct in my case?

I have a tiny table/bulletin board to display information for all members to remind them of their deadline task. They work for one large project, each is assigned to code for a specific thing. Which correct word should I use as the table's title? Project Deadline / Task Deadline / Assignment De...

word-choice

KitFox

@Cerberus Where's the hois?

@MattЭллен Oh. It's not "nop," it's "noy."

Matt Эллен

oh! thanks :)

Cerberus

1:14 PM

@KitFox Ah yes, I forgot that one. It should be hominis, but that doesn't seem to fit in.

KitFox

That took me a bit.

Cerberus

Could you tell me what you see where you typed [s?] and [n?]?

KitFox

The [s?] looks sort of like a backward terminal sigma.

The [n?] looks kind of like an L and and n together.

RegDwight ΒВBẞ8

0

Q: What does it mean to "start from scratch"?

This question speaks to the "start from the beginning" meaning, but in yesterday's USA Today, there was a headline about Obama and Romney starting from scratch because they were even in a poll. Have you heard it mean to be at a tie?

meaning

Oh puhlees.

Cerberus

@KitFox Ah yes, does it look a bit like an open 9?

That means con- at the beginning of a word, -us at the end.

And the Ln is probably -rum.

And what is "Gellis.Merci.xin." exactly?

Stellis makes sense, but then?

KitFox

1:22 PM

And sin the fire of conflagration
All men as that which founded are on live
It shall consume by diverse condition
In to their dites as doctours can descry
Is none by slight which may be fugitive
Than Sun and Moon both darkening through annoyance:
And other planets [something] beams obumbrative [(aunse]
Shall in their kind show dolorus coutenance.

Ish.

Cerberus

@Vitaly: In illis diebz post tribulacoez illam sol [s?]tenebrabit.et luna no dabit splendore suu. = In those days, after the tribulation, the sun will grow very dark and the moon will not give its splendour ("brightness").

KitFox

@Cerberus That's why I was asking of they are notes.

Cerberus

@KitFox Oh, right! Yes, that could be a reference. I thought you meant the et signs that look like z.

Perhaps a Biblical reference?

Merci? Is that a book? Marci, perhaps?

Matt Эллен

so dites are words?

skullpatrol

Is there an English word for generous that only applies to money?

KitFox

1:25 PM

That's been asked on the main site.

I don't remember the answer though.

Sorry @Vitaly. I still don't really understand it.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен I don't understand it either...words seems odd; perhaps "bits, pieces, dust"?

KitFox

Notes.

Cerberus

@skullpatrol Philanthropic?

KitFox

[Sin] shall consume by diverse conditions that doctors can describe in their notes.

Cerberus

Charitative?

Matt Эллен

1:26 PM

@Cerberus oh, yeah, good one!

Cerberus

@KitFox But "in to"?

skullpatrol

@Cerberus Those work thanks :-D

KitFox

@Cerberus Sure. Writing it into their notes.

shrugs

Cerberus

@skullpatrol Good luck! Charitative may not be a real word, though.

KitFox

Do I look like I know what I'm talking about?

Matt Эллен

1:29 PM

often

Cerberus

@KitFox Ooh yes, I see it now.

For some reason I was sticking "in to their dites" with the previous line.

@KitFox Yes. Though I think sin is since.

KitFox

No. Sin is It.

Cerberus

Oh, yes, scratch that.

Jesus.

KitFox

I think you are right about the biblical reference though. Let me look.

Cerberus

I keep looking at it the wrong way. Latin is easier!

Vitaly

1:32 PM

The longer I keep looking at those passages, the less I seem to understand.

Cerberus

@Vitaly What so hard about it?

Vitaly

@Cerberus I can't string the lines together.

Cerberus

It presumably describes the end of time when Christ will return to earth.

All living men will be destroyed.

KitFox

What? No it doesn't.

Cerberus

Huh?

KitFox

1:34 PM

40 mins ago, by KitFox

It's one of Thursday's contemplations: Remembre the generall jugement.

Cerberus

The generall jugement is not the end of time?

confused

In any case, I meant the last judgement.

It seems quite clear.

KitFox

Oh, how would I know?

I thought we were talking about going to Hell.

Cerberus

The Latin talks about Christ too.

KitFox

There's more Latin. Do you want it?

Cerberus

@KitFox Oh, no, I don't think so.

@KitFox I think it is quite clear, unless Vitaly needs specific information?

KitFox

1:36 PM

Well, I think he'd like to know what it means.

So would I.

Cerberus

I know!

KitFox

I feel like I understand the first four lines.

Vitaly

@KitFox Wow.

KitFox

I know! and it's not even Thursday yet!

Cerberus

You don't understand certain details?

What does Vitaly want to know exactly?

KitFox

1:38 PM

41 mins ago, by Vitaly

@KitFox Thanks. Telling us whether the “beames obumbratiue” are indeed cast by the Christian deity would be sufficient.

Matt Эллен

how about: sin will consume man, in as many ways as there are conditions that doctors can think of. No one can run.

Cerberus

et tuc videbut filiu hois veniete in nubibz celi cu potestate magna et maiestate [z thing c with dots over it]. = And then they will see the son of man coming in heavenly clouds with great power and majesty.

@KitFox Oh, right.

KitFox

Ah. Noöne can run. That makes sense.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен That's more or less how I read it.

None can run but the sun and the moon.

Matt Эллен

well, I don't know about the sun and the moon (and the planets)

I stopped before that bit

Cerberus

1:40 PM

But they will grow dark with grief or some other negative emotion.

KitFox

Oh. I thought none shall escape the Sun and Moon's annoyance.

Cerberus

It says "none...than".

Matt Эллен

I see

yes, that makes sense then

Cerberus

It is about the last judgement, which I don't know much about, but I would not expect the sun and the moon to be actively doing anything.

KitFox

OK. So noöne will be free of sin, and all the heavenly bodies will look on annoyed and sad?

Cerberus

1:41 PM

They just sit there, annoyed.

Matt Эллен

lol

Cerberus

@KitFox Noöne will escape the conflagration.

All will burn.

KitFox

Right. Sin, the fire of conflagration.

Cerberus

All but the sun and the moon, who will grow dark and sad/angry.

hhh

I am looking for a plotting word meaning "to add a box describing what the plots of different color are", more here.

KitFox

1:42 PM

@hhh A legend.

hhh

(not annotate, not to label)

Cerberus

Ding!

hhh

@KitFox yes, thanks! How do you remember it?

Matt Эллен

yeah, legend

Cerberus

We have a winner.

Matt Эллен

1:42 PM

she's a legend

Cerberus

In Dutch, winnares, because she is female.

KitFox

@hhh I don't know. It's just something I have known always.

user19161

@hhh With the help of some coffee.

Cerberus

As in sorceress.

hhh

What is its origin?

user19161

1:43 PM

@hhh (0,0).

Cerberus

Latin legenda, "the things that should be read [before looking at the map/chart]".

hhh

Legend

A legend (Latin, legenda, "things to be read") is a narrative of human actions that are perceived both by teller and listeners to take place within human history and to possess certain qualities that give the tale verisimilitude. Legend, for its active and passive participants includes no happenings that are outside the realm of "possibility", defined by a highly flexible set of parameters, which may include miracles that are perceived as actually having happened, within the specific tradition of indoctrination where the legend arises, and within which it may be transformed over time, ...

not probbaly this ,err

Matt Эллен

@hhh etymology

KitFox

So was that useful or painful, @Vitaly? Or both?

hhh

@MattЭллен I am just looking for some way to remember it, I have forgot the word so many times...always looking for labels/annotations/etc

KitFox

1:46 PM

How about just remember it as the word you can never remember that has do to with charts?

Matt Эллен

think of it like a foot, and a map is a leg. Where is the foot? It's at the leg end.

user19161

@hhh You can write it on a note and stick it on your desk and stare at it for a month.

Cerberus

@hhh If something is legible, it is readable. A legend is the things you need to read before studying a chart.

user19161

@MattЭллен This is new to me.

Matt Эллен

@ClarkKent silly puns are new to you? I have so much to tell you!

user19161

1:48 PM

@Cerberus There are some things that are legible but not readable, like "laskjdnflaksjdnfljdfnlkjn".

user19161

There are also some things that are readable but not legible, like your mind.

KitFox

I hate Google docs. I hate sharing spreadsheets.

Vitaly

@KitFox It was a fascinating exercise in trying to interpret 16th-century English. I can't string the lines together yet, though (that is, I can't come up with an equivalent passage in Present-day English that would incorporate everything from the original one).

hhh

@Cerberus Some verb about this thing? To make it more readable, to make it more legible with legend...

Cerberus

@hhh What are you saying, what is this verb?

hhh

1:51 PM

legend, legible ... <--- well getting easier to remember, more similar words? Like verbs?

Cerberus

@Vitaly What don't you understand yet?

Vitaly

Hey, @Robusto:

Robusto

Yes?

Matt Эллен

@KitFox have people been ruining your numbers?

KitFox

@Vitaly Hmm, OK. That strokes my ego acceptably.

Vitaly

1:51 PM

29 mins ago, by KitFox

And sin the fire of conflagration
All men as that which founded are on live
It shall consume by diverse condition
In to their dites as doctours can descry
Is none by slight which may be fugitive
Than Sun and Moon both darkening through annoyance:
And other planets [something] beams obumbrative [(aunse]
Shall in their kind show dolorus coutenance.

KitFox

@MattЭллен The project lead is screwing up the formatting.

Matt Эллен

bastard

Robusto

@Vitaly A translation of the original translation?

user19161

@KitFox Screw him then.

Cerberus

@Vitaly: So God is not sending these beams. The planets are just casting darker beams than usual, probably. But the Last Judgement may be caused by God, so that he is indirectly responsible?

Matt Эллен

1:53 PM

@Robusto did you mean to ping me?

Cerberus

@Vitaly Perhaps you should give the arts a try after all.

Robusto

@MattЭллен Eh, no.

Cerberus

Keep in mind that "planets" were like stars to our Renaissance ancestors.

user19161

@Robusto This explains your sometimes mysterious responses.

Cerberus

"Star" and "planet" are often even interchangeable.

Matt Эллен

1:55 PM

Oh! well that makes a lot more sense!

Cerberus

A planet is a speck of light in the sky that moves along a somewhat different pattern than most other specks.

Vitaly

@Cerberus Of course.

Robusto

@Cerberus I think you mean interchangeable.

user19161

@Cerberus Not in this room.

Matt Эллен

I can get 100 million planets to the star

Cerberus

1:55 PM

@Robusto Err yes.

Robusto

@Cerberus Planets are the "wanderers" among the stars, but are both celestial bodies.

Cerberus

Yes.

Vitaly

@Robusto Kit's checked a copy of the source out of the library. That's what she managed to get out of it (she doesn't have a scanner handy, apparently)

Robusto

Yeah, I wish I could see the Urtext.

Cerberus

I usually take pictures with my phone and e-mail them to myself.

KitFox

1:58 PM

Hmm. I don't have a cable for the phone.

Let me think a bit.

Robusto

@Cerberus Weirdly autoerotic, but OK.

Cerberus

@KitFox No e-mail?

@Robusto I knew you'd appreciate it.

I don't use the photocopier in the library any more if I only need a few pages.

Much easier to take a picture.

My phone is older than the first Iphone, so it shouldn't be too hard!

KitFox

I'm not sure if I can email it. It might be too big.

Cerberus

Then use a lower resolution.

A readable page is less than a MB for me.

KitFox

Hang on. Quit nagging.

Robusto

2:01 PM

@KitFox: But what is the source? It still feels like some eschatological passage to me.

RegDwight ΒВBẞ8

Robusto

@RegDwightΒВBẞ8 Ah. The default image.

KitFox

@Robusto It is a reproduction of Contemplacon of Synners.

RegDwight ΒВBẞ8

Aye.

Robusto

OK, then that makes sense.

user19161

2:03 PM

Do you people see "image not found" above?

Matt Эллен

"you people"!

Robusto

You have to remember that "God's grace" would be the eternal, uneclipseable light which cast everything else (i.e., everything sinful) into shadow. So my original sense of it is borne out. "God's light" outshines the heavens themselves, which (in a fit of pathetic fallacy) go off in a sulk.

user19161

@MattЭллен Yes. You mean you are not human?

Matt Эллен

@ClarkKent not at all, but do you?

Robusto

@MattЭллен What do you mean, "you people"?

@ClarkKent I do.

Matt Эллен

2:05 PM

@Robusto I mean, the very nerve!

KitFox

user19161

@MattЭллен Maybe you had too much coffee just now.

Robusto

@RegDwightΒВBẞ8 Yeah, I've seen that before. Someone made a fake video duplicating that with clips from the actual show.

Cerberus

@KitFox I think it should be "flight" (a type-setting error).

And that other thingie is "with".

My compliments on your transcription skills, that is no easy letter.

Matt Эллен

and (auce?

what could that be?

Cerberus

2:10 PM

Noyaunce

Matt Эллен

OH!

KitFox

Oh! Of course.

Cerberus

Belongs to the word above it.

KitFox

The line was too long.

Cerberus

I thought you already had "annoyance"?

Matt Эллен

2:11 PM

I figured noy was short for it

KitFox

I had the noy part.

Hahaha.

Robusto

@KitFox What you transliterated as dites must be "duties" ... which would make more sense.

KitFox

@Cerberus I agree, but it's clearly an S there, right?

Cerberus

@KitFox Yes.

KitFox

@Robusto I didn't. I thought "duties" too.

Robusto

2:12 PM

But you wrote dites.

KitFox

Well, I figured Vitaly knew a word that I didn't, so I should just go along with it so I didn't look ignorant.

user19161

Ah, now the "image not found" has turned into an image!

Cerberus

@Robusto Then how does that fit in?

KitFox

Doctors see the results of sin all the time.

Cerberus

7 mins ago, by KitFox

KitFox

2:13 PM

wink wink

Cerberus

Heh.

But doctors can descry something into their duties?

Robusto

@Cerberus Perhaps that line means "according to their duties as doctors can descry" ...

Vitaly

well, I consulted the OED for variant spellings of duties and couldn't find anything similar, while dites/ditties was close enough and fit the doctors part

Cerberus

@Robusto Hmm that "in to" seems odd.

Normally I would not at all expect u => y.

Robusto

@Cerberus I read it as possibly being "in line with" => "according to"

Cerberus

2:15 PM

@Robusto Is that possible for "in to"?

KitFox

Descrive. I mean, that's obvious, right?

Matt Эллен

aye, write down

Robusto

@Cerberus Anything is possible. I have a sense of this as being what I said, but I can't prove it definitively.

Cerberus

But you don't recall similar usage elsewhere?

I don't know.

KitFox

Oh, ditty bag. I'd forgotten all about that phrase.

Robusto

2:20 PM

@Cerberus That would make more sense.

@Vitaly As in preparations. Perhaps.

Cerberus

@KitFox Not sure that is related?

KitFox

@Cerberus Except for doctor's putting things into them, I suppose not. It's probably too recent a phrase.

Cerberus

I really think it's ditties/dites.

Robusto

@Vitaly Did you try spelling it with a y? Dytees?

Cerberus

@KitFox OED says "eytmology unknown".

RegDwight ΒВBẞ8

2:22 PM

0

A: English line breaking rules

Since you mentioned that you will be using TeX, minor errors will be corrected while typing. As for the line breaks, I can't think of any such rules in english typing.

What is he even talking about?

Cerberus

And, yes, earliest date c. 1860.

RegDwight ΒВBẞ8

How does TeX correct errors while typing?

KitFox

@Cerberus [perhaps from obsolete dutty calico, from Hindi dhōtī loincloth, dhoti]

@RegDwightΒВBẞ8 It doesn't.

Vitaly

Matt Эллен

@RegDwightΒВBẞ8 LaTeX comes with mind reading

Vitaly

2:23 PM

KitFox

Right.

Robusto

@Vitaly OK, works for me.

Cerberus

I definitely think Kit was right.

KitFox

I figured that's what it meant.

@Cerberus About what?

Cerberus

About the "treatises" written by learned men.

It's still a bit of an odd line, but it is our best option at the moment.

Robusto

2:25 PM

@Cerberus But now I feel it's being used in a patronizing sense, demeaning said treatises.

KitFox

I can't believe I left an apostrophe in "doctor's" up there.

@Robusto I agree.

Calling their deep philosophical discourses "little notes."

Cerberus

@Robusto Could be.

> sack drill, duty U.S. Naval slang, sleep; time spent in bed

So there's "ditty bag" and "sack duty".

Totally unrelated, but fun.

KitFox

Navy slang is a blast.

Robusto

@Cerberus No, "ditties" as in "inconsequential compositions"

KitFox

Let's not forget "kit" after all.

Matt Эллен

2:27 PM

@KitFox What is kit navy slang for?

Robusto

@MattЭллен I would think the same thing it means in BrE: gear, accoutrements.

Matt Эллен

oh

KitFox

kit - a case for containing a set of articles

That's me!

I contain things!

I mean, with help from Caboodle.

Matt Эллен

specifically "the, a and an"

Cerberus

@Robusto Not sure how inconsequential the word was then?

Then what's a Kit in a sack?

KitFox

2:30 PM

4.
a. clothing and other personal effects, esp those of a traveller or soldier safari kit battle kit
b. Informal clothing in general (esp in the phrase get one's kit off)

Robusto

@Cerberus It always meant a short song, so ...

KitFox

giggle

Cerberus

@Robusto It originally didn't mean a song.

Matt Эллен

hehehe

Robusto

@Cerberus There you go, confusing word history with word meaning.

user19161

2:31 PM

Oh I have been giving out @Kit Kats too in the other rooms.

Cerberus

Shut up.

This is not modern English.

KitFox

So word history is significant.

Cerberus

Very.

Matt Эллен

herd wizardy is important too

Robusto

@Cerberus No, but the word ditty has meant "a short song" since the 13th century, and this passage was written hundreds of years later. So are you saying the writer ignored the later meaning in favor of the former meaning in another language? You're daft, man. Daft.

user19161

2:33 PM

@RegDwightΒВBẞ8 The editor can correct spellings at least if it has a spellcheck built in.

Cerberus

Jesus. Don't talk to me like that in a serious discussion.

Matt Эллен

@Robusto but there is a marked difference in pronunciation between ditee and dytee

RegDwight ΒВBẞ8

@ClarkKent the editor != TeX

Matt Эллен

although they apparently are the same word...

KitFox

ducks and runs

Vitaly

2:35 PM

@MattЭллен it's just old orthography

Robusto

@MattЭллен I know. Which is why I originally thought it might have been a variant spelling of duty.

Cerberus

It could mean a written composition of any kind, so I questioned the connotation of "light song". It was used without that connotation in the time of writing, or at least that's what we're trying to figure out. No need to be childish like that.

Vitaly

@Cerberus At the time of writing it's already had the connotation, I believe

at least the dates in the OED suggest that

Robusto

@Cerberus What, now you're calling me childish? Geezis.

Cerberus

When was it written again?

Vitaly

2:36 PM

@Cerberus 16th century

KitFox

1499.

Vitaly

Yeah, adapted from the Latin original, which is dated 1499

KitFox

Yes.

No.

Hmm.

Cerberus

@Vitaly I don't know, the OED is not very clear.

Matt Эллен

the OED puts the first use of obumbrative at 1525

user19161

2:42 PM

@MattЭллен That word is beyond me!

user19161

At least I heard of "adumbrate".

KitFox

Robusto

@KitFox QED

KitFox

Also, I see references to Chaucer as a writer of dytees.

Matt Эллен

but the author of obumbrative died before the publication, so it would have been written before then

@ClarkKent indeed. it's new to me too. it means overshadowed

KitFox

2:44 PM

> dytees. In OF. this is a general word for a literary composition of any sort, but also has the meaning song (carmen).

Robusto

But now hold on a sec. I suddenly remember that dite is part of indite, which means to put something in writing.

Cerberus

D'oh.

Robusto

I'm guessing that ditty originally referred to the transcriptions of the songs, not the songs as they were sung. Although it later acquired that meaning.

Cerberus

I was just questioning whether it was used with the frivolous connotation in this particular instance. I could have been, or not. Then Rob was rude before we had figured it out.

Robusto

@Cerberus How was I rude?

Cerberus

2:47 PM

15 mins ago, by Robusto

@Cerberus There you go, confusing word history with word meaning.

user19161

Knock it off, children!

Robusto

@Cerberus So, honesty and accuracy of observation are rude? Guilty as charged, your Honor.

Cerberus

Now you're making it worse.