good evening

Does anyone dislike Stephen Fry? Every single one of these shows is great.

Hello!

Surely lots of people dislike him.

@SpareOom Of course not.

Maybe not the kind that hang around here.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No!

The kind that hang around interesting and/or civilised places!

If I start typing "hate stephen" into Google, "hate stephen fry" is the 6th suggestion

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I was about to accuse you of dividing people into two groups like David Wallace does.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oh my!

But it's because he's so famous.

@SpareOom He divides people into two groups? Which group am I in?

Yes, David should definitely shave.

Well, mostly he was dividing females into whiny and not whiny voiced.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Probably the "in" group.

You should ask him.

Here’s another of David:

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Nooooo....

@Cerberus It's bound to happen. Not even you can please everyone all the time.

And here is last week’s, with a wonderful tie to match the décor — and also Cal’s outfit:

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But but...everybody likes me, surely?

Well, this kid does:

Why does Alan Davies always get abuse? He takes it well though.

@tchrist Don't get me started!!

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Haha great!

I really enjoy Brian Blessed:

Actually I am thinking that this dog is meant to be the three-headed dog "fluffy" that guards the Philosopher's Stone in HP1. Now that I look at the picture more closely.

Once again, impeccably dressed.

And Ross Noble is always fun, too.

Ross Noble’s accent is hard for a lot of people.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That is insulting.

@tchrist You post these faster than I can watch them. Are we just looking at the pictures?

Naw. Watch the last one.

I was posting for the ties.

Cerberus loves ties.

@Cerberus Heheh. I guess you might be insulted that kids these days are more familiar with Potter than Greek myths.

@tchrist I thought men hated ties.

Our doggy is particularly enamored of Stephen’s ties.

Dammit Fedora, why you make me update Perl? I don't even use it!

@SpareOom People who are divided into two groups, and people who aren't?

sure you do @Mr.ShinyandNew安宇

@DavidWallace Ha!

It’s good for you.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Exactly.

@tchrist I don't! And certainly not those!

@JourneymanGeek I dunno. Maybe RPM uses it? I'm sure it's a dependency in there somewhere, but I doubt I launch any perl programs and I certainly don't code in it.

@tchrist ! No!

@tchrist Rush Limbaugh used to have a nice tie collection, but I don't think he's on tv any more.

I don't think we have anybody here who would know anything about Perl.

Hello, Dave.

@tchrist I assume you know Nathan's story, that that picture would remind him of?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I know dpkg is, and it sounds like a natural language to write something like that

@Cerberus are you joking?

@tchrist Brian Blessed's voice is fantastic.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes.

'RPM was innately different. It was written in Perl for fast development and attempted to solve many of the problems of its predecessors. ... By version 2, RPM had been completely rewritten in C, the database format had been redesigned to provide reliability and improve performance, and rpmlib–the library of RPM routines–allowed developers to use RPM functionality in their applications.'

apparently C

is currently learning python

@JourneymanGeek yes but I seem to recall that it used perl for something under the hood. But maybe that wasn't a strict requirement? Anyway new software installation bits like Yum are using python.

There are so many requirements to get a functional system. It's a bit annoying at times.

ya ;p

I'm sure I don't care if an admin tool is written in Perl or Python, but it's annoying that I need BOTH and have to constantly download updates for both.

Do you really?

What happens if you don't?

Well, what happens is my system becomes known insecure as time goes on and bugs are found. And since my tolerance of remote users using my machine as a bot in a botnet are lower than yours, I insist on maintaining an up-to-date installation.

Pah.

Then how come all virus scanners I run never find any viruses?

Well, it has happened to me before.

Superstition.

Superstition? then how do all those botnets out there come about?

Corrupted "security" lobby.

This isn't a "security lobby". This is Free Software.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 From what I hear, it is mostly social engineering.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I mean the Fear.

Well, from what I know, there are actually lots of ways that software gets installed remotely.

Then how come I never have any?

You listed a bunch of things that you do that help mitigate the risk, IIRC. But have you never heard of Code Red? or any of the other worms?

Never.

Superstition, I say.

Well, back when you were still a child, and I was working as a developer for a software company, we had a major problem because there was active malware that spread on Windows NT and 2000 machines without any user intervention.

It brought down networks world-wide.

It is still around, though almost nobody runs those old versions of Windows anymore.

When Windows XP was first released there were several remote-compromise bugs. They have since been fixed, and you have those updates installed so you're safe. But that doesn't mean you'll stay safe. All it takes is for someone to find a bug that affects XP, Vista, and 7 all together, and bang, a worm will arise and infect thousands of machines, maybe more. Maybe yours.

Install Unix. End of problem. Duh.

sure, because no unix install has ever been susceptible to a worm, not even the Morris worm. :)

Fear-mongering!

Didn't you hear about all the computers in Iran that were found to have a worm on them?

Stuxnet?

I forget what it was called. Anyway, that particular worm was made to target SCADA systems in Iran.

yes

@DavidWallace The one about his wife at Burning Man?

Do you disbelieve the very existence of it? Or maybe you brush it off because THAT worm was made by the Israeli military to target Iran, and not by Russian spammers targeting Americans.

Are you trying to say that you and the country of Iran are less tech-savvy than I, and that therefore you need virus scanners running permanently on your computer, and you need to be bothered with updates to 98712738736 programs all the time?

yes

definately

OK thanks.

@Cerberus I don't run a virus scanner on my linux box. However, I do update software, because old known bugs have a tendency to turn into new security problems, and this is not speculation, it has been observed many times.

Almost every new worm nowadays that targets Windows targets some security bug that Microsoft fixed months ago.

Meh.

Stuxnet is exceptional in that it contained 4 previously unknown security vulnerabilities.

That alone is suspicious because unknown vulns are very valuable on the black market.

If you discount social engineering, and you are a responsible user, what is the chance of getting some kind of virus during, say, a year of normal usage?

So where did they get 4, and why were they so eager to use them all?

If this chance is high, then why am I not infected?

<computer shuts down due to virus attack>

@Cerberus by your reasoning, nobody should bother to get polio vaccines because nobody ever gets polio.

Nah-uh.

You are saying everybody has polio.

No.

Well, lots of people.

I am saying everyone COULD GET polio

And lots of people have got it.

Well, it's known that lots of computers are infected with malware. I have direct experience with this.

And keeping my systems healthy is one reason that other systems can stay healthy, because they won't catch it from me.

The only problem is that there are two large industries that thrive on making people afraid, and another, even larger industry that wants to kindle existing fears and thereby cause the American government to create new laws and policies that are harmful to the Internet.

Hello.

@Cerberus: patching stuff is common sense

Is it really?

Yeah, but Fedora is not part of those industries.

taking the minimum effort is common sense.

Common sense, or indoctrination?

@Mahnax Yo.

Installing a bloated security suite that slows down your system more than a virus...

Haha.

@Cerberus How are you?

Great!

@Cerberus: OS patches don't make the OS maker any more money than releasing the OS does

Still a bit tipsy.

@JourneymanGeek It does, indirectly: if you have a legitimate version of Windows, you will be safe against the evil threats that will destroy you!

So buy Windows!!

@Cerberus: buy.. windows?

I just get mine with my system or MSDNAA

Some people still buy it, yet.

@Cerberus Windows releases patches once a month. It's hardly intrusive.

cough

Then you have bought it indirectly.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I regularly hear people complain about them.

And I know my cousins have pirated copies that install patches fine

Fedora releases patches whenever they come in. So sometimes multiple times/day. And the fedora repository is much larger than Windows, so the number of patches is higher.

@JourneymanGeek Yes. But you were talking about MS having no direct interest.

@Cerberus: Well, companies do need to make money

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Sounds like great fun.

@Cerberus Well, I always install all the windows updates whenever they arrive and I can assure you that it's barely annoying.

@JourneymanGeek And making people feel they need the "security" of direct MS "support" is part of that, probably.

@Cerberus: No direct financial profit ;p

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Then again, you are used to patching 189989 things all the time, so the Windows are a drop in the ocean!

@Cerberus THIS is what I'm complaining about. Because of they way Fedora is designed, I need hundreds of individual packages installed. All of those get updates.

@JourneymanGeek Not direct, bit indirect.

@tchrist Did you ever see House on the Rock? The mention of the player piano in QI reminded me of the player orchestras there.

precisely

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Then why don't you just don't update them?

@Cerberus So take a wild guess at how much time per month I spend actually maintaining Windows patches on a single machine.

The computer should serve you, not you it.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇: through one application. As opposed to updating firefox, utorrent, cyberduck, chrome, ....

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I don't care, it is about annoyance. Flash updates alone annoy me to no end!

@DavidWallace Just turn off "install automatically" then.

@SpareOom I’ve been, yes.

@DavidWallace Haha, yes, like that.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇: linux systems - sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get upgrade (or its rpm equivilent), LUNCH!

@Cerberus Flash is one of the most important things for you to update. It's rife with bugs.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Nooo don't do it!! Your computer will explode!

@Cerberus Good to hear!

@DavidWallace: I hate that. Thats the only reason I manually approve updates

@Cerberus What I mean is make it notify instead of auto-install.

@tchrist Sorry.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 And...why do you think I still update Flash?

@SpareOom ?

@Mahnax How has your free day been?

@Cerberus And yet you don't bother to update your OS, which is also rife with bugs.

@tchrist Kind of a big collection of junk.

@Cerberus Fun!

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That is slightly less annoying, I presume (I have never in all these years had automated updates or notifications).

@Cerberus Unless you have a wife who phones you at work to say "the computer just threw up a message and I don't know whether I should say yes or no".

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yeah. I was considering stopping those Flash updates. The problem is that I cannot defend myself against Flash, while I can against Windows stuff.

@DavidWallace Hahaha okay, you win: notifications can be more annoying.

@Cerberus you seem to take updates as some kind of insult, instead of a free service that improves your computer.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I do indeed. They interrupt my work flow, and they are partly part of a commercial scheme. It is hard to establish to what degree, but still.

I want to be free.

@Cerberus They are, to no degree whatsoever, part of a commercial scheme.

Yes they are.

@Cerberus Says the guy who runs commercial software.

I have a good reason to run the software.

@Cerberus They are, but you can't avoid paying for them. You've already paid for them. So why not benefit from them? No matter how small you might perceive the benefit to be.

@Cerberus No way. There is no way that MS makes money from sending you free patches for XP. Except inasmuch as they improve the quality of XP and thus their reputation for having a higher-quality product.

@Cerberus If you valued your freedom you'd run Linux.

@DavidWallace Because they bother me?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, it doesn't matter.

@Cerberus Does it bother you to have to check your engine's oil level, and put new oil in when it gets low?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I would, and I like Linux; it's just that I want to run Windows programs.

@DavidWallace Yes, of course. Why? Except that I don't have an engine.

Let me give you a similar example.

The point is: you are conflating the idea that "viruses are everywhere! buy Norton Antivirus!" with "we know there is a vulnerability in Windows, therefore we have provided you a free update which makes it impossible for a remote attacker to turn your computer into a spam-sending machine."

Our boat used to have an external engine.

If I offered to replace the oil in your car's engine every six months for free, would you refuse to let me do so, because it bothers you?

According to my father, we needed to take it out of the water and repaint it every year in order to avoid rust and damage.

No doubt this is technically sound advice.

@Cerberus You say "used to" because it rusted away?

However, this made it so that the whole boat became a burden.

@DavidWallace Our boat was dragged away by the city: it does not exist any more, and the engine is to be sold.

What a horrible city to drag your boat away!

@DavidWallace I would refuse, if there were any chance that you would be doing it when I wanted to go for a drive!

@Cerberus Having to perform a time-consuming and laborious task is one thing. But having to click "restart" once a month is WAY WAY different.

@Cerberus If I were going to ask your permission each time before doing it?

And if the cost of me doing it were already built into the purchase price of the car?

I mean, I am seriously telling you without exaggeration that manually approving the updates to Windows every 4th tuesday takes 10 minutes. Maybe 15.

@DavidWallace One of the ropes had broken. So it was floating in the middle of the canal, blocking other boats a bit. The city sent us an e-mail saying we had to tie it down within 24 hours; when we arrived, within 24 hours, the boat was gone. But we were sort of relieved, because upkeep was just so much trouble, as mentioned.

So chances are, the owner of one of the boats that it had been blocking got annoyed, and cut all the other ropes. The city may have had nothing to do with it.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It always happens when you really don't want to wait. And it delays start-up, doesn't it? So I was told. People always complain about it.

@Cerberus Well, you could have just let the engine rot away.

@DavidWallace Ugh, I don't want people knocking on my door all the time asking me to do this or that.

@Cerberus it delays startup ONCE A MONTH by UP TO 5 minutes.

I leave my work computer running all the time. Every 4 weeks I restart it because there are windows updates. 10 frickin' minutes. No exaggeration.

You would seriously prefer to have the engine in your car stop working one day, because you let the oil run dry, than to have a charming New Zealander knock on your door every six months, and put new oil in your engine for free?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Look, I can understand if you want to update Windows all the time, but I just feel that ever year or so should be enough.

@Cerberus well, it isn't.

@DavidWallace Well, when I arrived, I found the engine hanging down from the railing on a rope under water.

The boat had disappeared. That means they had to cut the lock, which is very very strong.

The lock cable.

@Cerberus haha, so you were left with the annoying part.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Perhaps we should have. But we are laymen, what do we know? My father could tell us anything, and we couldn't judge the risk.

@Cerberus Could still have been another boat owner.

Far more likely though that someone who works for the city sent you the email later than they should have.

your boat analogy fails in two ways: 1. why not just let the motor rot if the whole boat was so worthless to you that it disappears and you don't care? and 2. repainting a motor probably takes hours and denies access to the boat for many many hours while the paint dries. you can apply windows updates in minutes.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That is really awful, no offence. I don't want to have to wait for my computer to start up for 5 minutes every say 20 times I boot it (assuming that I don't boot it every day of the month).

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yup. I had to lift it and carry it home.

@Cerberus you're unbelievable.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 More importantly, all you have to do is click restart and walk away. It doesn't take YOU 10 minutes, even though it takes the computer 10 minutes.

@DavidWallace Yes, most probably.

Could you have taken some kind of legal action?

@DavidWallace Well, I have to babysit it because my computer can't boot unattended. But that's my own fault. (HDD encryption)