English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:00 PM

@Cerberus How well do you think that approach would work if you were dealing with a 10,000 line program?

Robusto

Is this your AHK thingy?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Or if 20 people were all working on the same code-base?

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Okay, so that is the main difference/advantage, and besides that it is mostly the same thing?

@Robusto Yup!

Robusto

@Cerberus No, it's not mostly the same thing.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Ehh would that make a difference?

@MrShinyandNew安宇 As long as everybody knew the naming convention?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:01 PM

I mean, ok, for really short programs just about any approach can lead to a comprehensible solution. But as the project size scales, the code needs to better communicate the programmer's intentions.

Cerberus

@Robusto Y not?

Robusto

Having too many variables in one scope leads to confusion and possible conflict.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, it's even more complicated than that.

For instance, what if you don't know how many objects you need?

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Okay, so then this dot thingie is just a universal naming convention, basically? I can understand the advantages of that.

Robusto

@Cerberus I would love to stay and chat, but I have to go to a meeting which I am already two minutes late for. TTYL.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:03 PM

@Cerberus no, it's not at all like a universal naming convention. That's the wrong way of thinking about it.

It's like saying "files on the disk are just a naming convention"

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I test whether a variable is empty (I'm already doing that), then I skip it.

@Robusto OK latorz!

Vitaly

@Cerberus: do you think your memory is good enough to remember that you already have a variable named userName somewhere when you are dealing with a 10,000-line program and happen to want another variable named userName?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus What if your program maybe needs 2 variables this time, or 65535 variables the next time?

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 So then there must be something about the internal structure of an object that makes it better.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus - don't think of objects as a code thing. Objects are a way of conceptualising design that makes it easier to think about.

For exmple is it easier to think about a dog or all the component behaviours of a dog at once?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:04 PM

@Cerberus yes. It's a feature of the language, and it is a container for data. The container is not just a naming convention.

There are implications for how the data is organized in memory and what you can do with it.

Matt Эллен

No, it's a container for behaviours!

Cerberus

@Vitaly Right, no; but that's why I would use variables like username_warmetaltyrant1.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

To keep it simple, let's just consider "structures" which are simply containers and have no code in them (more on that in a sec).

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Hmm OK, is that the big advantages of objects, that they're easier to conceptualize?

Vitaly

@Cerberus isn't it easier to create an object with its separate namespace so that you know future uses in different namespaces are safe from variable-name conflicts?

Matt Эллен

4:05 PM

@Cerberus yes

MetaEd

@Cerberus I would say no, that is not the big advantage of objects.

Matt Эллен

that is why there is Object Oriented Programming

MetaEd

No!

Matt Эллен

Then you are missing the point @MetaEd

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Ehh...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:06 PM

An object or structure represents a new data type in the language, a data type which is composed of other types.

Cerberus

@Vitaly Ehm, maybe, I don't know!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

A structure can extend other structures or it can contain them.

Cerberus

@MetaEd Hmmm...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

you can organize them into hierarchies.

Imagine a string. "Cerberus". Is it a single thing?

Can I do x = 1 + "Cerberus"

Cerberus

No, it's three.

MetaEd

4:07 PM

There are several advantages to objects, and I would say it's possible that helping the programmer think about the program might be another one, but the real advantages of objects are engineering reasons: reusability, scalability, reliability, that kind of thing.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 You can try, but it would be a dogfight.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus In some languages, + is defined for strings, in others, it's not. But is a string a concept on its own? Or is it a bunch of letters?

In C, a string is always a bunch of letters (an array).

in Java, a string is an Object

you can't just poke around its insides

Matt Эллен

@MetaEd I would say that they are side effects, and they are important, but the whole point of OOP is to make programming easier to think about. It puts behaviour first and data second, because data is unimportant

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Access to the contents of that object are mediated through methods

Matt Эллен

it is only important when the programme is running

Cerberus

4:09 PM

Basic question: I'm still trying to grasp what the essential difference is between using this thingy like myObject.userName (storing "Cerberus") and using myObject_userName (storing "Cerberus").

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен You're getting ahead, though. Cerb doesn't even understand structures yet

user19161

@MattЭллен I thought we had a long discussion of programme and program!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus because myObject stores lots of things.

Matt Эллен

@WillHunting and we realised that I am right

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

it isn't just "cerberus" and 22 and "#1 Ashford Lane London England", it's

Matt Эллен

4:10 PM

@MrShinyandNew安宇 he doesn't need to. objects are by definition easier to understand than structures

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 So does the collection of variables starting with myObject_ ?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

{ username: "cerberus" age: 22 address: "#1 Ashford Lane London England" }

@MattЭллен what?

What happens when you have two objects?

Matt Эллен

@MrShinyandNew安宇 structures are about how computers work. objects are about how people think. Cerberus is already a person

Cerberus

Then I have another bunch of variables starting with yourObject_?

@MattЭллен Gee, thanks!!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Now let's say you have 65535 objects

Cerberus

4:12 PM

I feel like a worthy human being now.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Let's!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Now let's say you have a dating site and you want to introduce people who live close together

you can put all the potential suitors for "Cerberus" into an array, and loop over the array and compute the distance between their locations

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yay!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But you need to use that distance computing code somewhere else too, so you make it a function:

function distanceBetween (Address a1, Address a2)

and you call it thus:

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Or you could loop over all variables containing suitor_address?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

if (distanceBetween(suitor.address, suitee.address) < 10) then introduce(suitor, suitee);

@Cerberus No. How can you do that unless you know ahead of time how many suitors there are?

MetaEd

4:15 PM

@Cerberus The basic difference is that in the object case, the thing you are referencing is often not a value but a function that returns a value. Access to the data of the object is very commonly mediated through functions, called methods.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 You keep going until you encounter an empty one?

MetaEd

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Hope you have an unsigned type.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus what does that mean?

Cerberus

@MetaEd Hmm...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

You can't "keep going" unless you somehow know how many are possible. With arrays, you can just say "I have a container of X objects, where X is a variable and I neither know nor care at coding time how big X is"

Cerberus

4:17 PM

@MrShinyandNew安宇 You loop through suitor%loopnumber%_address until you encounter a suitor9876_address that is empty?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

With objects, you say "I have an object of type Person. I don't know or care how it's implemented, I don't know all of its properties, but I know it has an Address

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Hmm OK, I suppose I encountered such a limit in my script.

MetaEd

You always care how big X is. Because programming has to reflect real world constraints. It's always a practical engineering problem: you have to avoid building a program that is too big for the machine.

Cerberus

> Characters(first, second="", third="", fourth="", fifth="", sixth="", seventh="", eighth="", ninth="", tenth="")

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MetaEd you're getting too practical, I'm trying to discuss the idea

Cerberus

4:18 PM

I would have to add a number to my function above to make it possible to use more than 10 characters behind a single key.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus What if suitor 27 doesn't have an address in the database?

MetaEd

I would say programming is a very practical discipline, and anyone who is just getting their start will be handicapped if they do not understand that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Does your script even work for 10 characters?

@MetaEd I think that lesson can wait until day 2, though.

MetaEd

See, that's where we differ. I think that's a day one lesson.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I think you have a bug in the part that finds the value of the variable, because you have char0%value% or something. only works for 1-9

Cerberus

4:20 PM

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yes, because it stops when it encounters an empty variable. As an alternative, I could have it skip empty ones and go on until 10 if I needed to. But I do need to set a maximum, granted; and I do need to loop through all of them. Don't you need to do that with objects?

MetaEd

And this is why I love Project Euler as a learning process for programming. Write the program any way you want, as long as it solves the problem in under one minute. That totally captures the real world constraints.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MetaEd So, to start off, even if you don't understand what an array IS, or why you'd ever want to use it, you explain about the fact that integers are limited in size and memory is finite and all that?

@Cerberus Your program is really simulating arrays more than it's simulating objects

user19161

I cast my nine delete votes for the day, yay!

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Oh, right. Yes, true; I was halfway in the process of fixing that, then forgot, because I don't have any keys with more than 9 characters yet. But I can easily fix it by removing the preceding zero in 01, 02 etc. (don't know why I added that).

MetaEd

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I would start with something very low level, such as FORTH or assembler. Of course I would proceed quickly to higher level languages, but building on the understanding of what they are doing underneath.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:23 PM

@Cerberus When using arrays (in modern languages) when you have an array you also have its size. So you don't need to test for empty variables.

MetaEd

But obviously I would also start with elementary programming problems that would be easy to express in a low level language.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MetaEd Bottom-up vs top-down, fine. I don't think it matters much as long as you teach both lessons.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 So I have a question: you're suggesting that it is easier to use things like suitor9879.address if you're using objects, in that you don't need to declare so many variable? I have a feeling I need to know something about that particular point but I'm not sure what.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I mean, when learning Newton's laws of motion in physics class, they often start you off on frictionless surfaces so that you can focus on part of the lesson without getting bogged down in details

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Hmm OK, but how is this size obtained? Doesn't the program go through all the things in the array and count them? How else can it know? And how does it know where to stop trying to count?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:25 PM

@Cerberus In one place you define what a Person is, and suitor is an instance of Person (just like in "var x = 1", x is an instance of an integer)

@Cerberus No, when you create the array you store its size.

MetaEd

Anyway, I think Project Euler is to programming as the Mikrokosmos is to piano playing. A great place to start.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 But how? You explicitly add the number in the code?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, let's say I'm reading lines from a file, and I don't know at the start how many lines there are. var a = new String[10]; // allocate space for 10 lines.

while reading a line, I do a[currentIndex] = readLine(file);

if there are too many lines I can do something like a = resizeArray(a, a.length * 2)

Cerberus

Ehh sounds like magic.

I don't know what all those things mean.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

then a has a length of 20

If I never know how many entries there will be, then there will of course be empty pointers in my array at the end, because I grow it in anticipation of filling it.

Cerberus

4:30 PM

So how do you determine how large you should make it?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Which is why in many languages there are Collection objects, which allow you to know the size of the collection independantly of the max length underneath

@Cerberus it depends.

Cerberus

I'm afraid I don't understand your code or your point.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Admittedly, arrays are a very primitive data structure and I almost never deal with them directly in my day-to-day work. We now have more complicated objects that use arrays, so that I can have a simple container and not need to worry about how much the array can hold.

Ok, time to get back to basics

An array is a block of memory in the computer's RAM. literally.

Cerberus

Oh, I have to go for a minute, have to return books to the library before it closes.

I'll be right back!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus while you're there, get a beginner's guide to programming

3

Cerberus

4:34 PM

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Heh they only have books about arts and humanities.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I'm sure a resourceful person like yourself can find one somewhere :)

Vitaly

@Cerberus surely “books about arts” includes the art of computer programming?

Cerberus

@Vitaly Would that it did! But, no.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus by the time you get back I'll probably be gone for lunch

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Those books are all in the science libraries, which are in the ugly, far-away parts of town that I seldom visit.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:39 PM

@Cerberus are you still here? don't you have books to return and REAL learning to do?

(by REAL I mean programming)

MetaEd

5:11 PM

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Told you you'd have to go to the bare metal :-)

aedia λ

Let's just teach @Cerb assembly.

How much damage can he do?

Besides, he likes old things, right?

user19161

5:30 PM

@aediaλ You can't teach an old dog new tricks.

MetaEd

FORTH.

aedia λ

Hmm, I don't know that.

MetaEd

FORTH is great for ELU people. It's made of words.

And then there's LISP.

aedia λ

Oh my blessed - it uses reverse Polish notation? runs away in confusion

Gigili

Hello @all again, I just wanted to ask what's the difference between "to make a decision" and "to decide"?

MetaEd

5:33 PM

Which is made of words and punctuation, mostly the latter.

@Gigili I can't think of a big difference.

user19161

@Gigili Same.

MetaEd

Anybody? Bueller?

Gigili

@MetaEd @WillHunting Thank you.

aedia λ

@Gigili Not a strong difference to me either.

Cerberus

@aediaλ claps things I do!

MetaEd

5:37 PM

Yay! Steven Pinker reference again today.

We love reverse Poles.

Cerberus

@MetaEd Where?

MetaEd

Geomagnetic reversal

A geomagnetic reversal is a change in the Earth's magnetic field such that the positions of magnetic north and magnetic south are interchanged. The Earth's field has alternated between periods of normal polarity, in which the direction of the field was the same as the present direction, and reverse polarity, in which the field was in the opposite direction. These periods are called chrons. The time spans of chrons are randomly distributed with most being between 0.1 and 1million years. Most reversals are estimated to take between 1,000 and 10,000 years. The latest one, the Brunhes–Matuya...

aedia λ

shakes head violently No! They ought to stay infixed or prefixed or something!

MetaEd

That is the kind of arrant pedantry POP with which I will not PUSH.

Kitḫ

> The Application has encountered an Internal Error.

This is the sum tota of the email I got from a user.

Not a hello, not an initial as a signoff. Just this.

MetaEd

5:47 PM

Re: The Application has encountered an Internal Error.
Oh.

Seems only fair.

Kitḫ

The subject line was just the name of the portal.

Good thing it's a snow day, or I might be tempted to help.

Actually, it's this one error I can't reproduce. It shows up sporadically, and I can't figure out how it happens.

It's my white whale, I think.

Cerberus

@Kitḫ I'd write back, Computer says "No."

Kitḫ

I finally figured out where it's happening, so I can handle it better, at least.

Cerberus

If you get the Little Britain reference.

Kitḫ

No, sorry.

Cerberus

5:51 PM

Aww.

It's OK.

Kitḫ

I'm working on this hella project instead.

MetaEd

Brittany?

Kitḫ

So she'll have to wait until Monday.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus hehehehe.

Kitḫ

Damn it, I hate it when everyone else gets the joke but me.

Turns out this cardboard box and chicken wire project that I nervously signed up for probably won't make me nearly as much money as I had been hoping.

Matt Эллен

6:00 PM

►

Kitḫ

Still, I'm up to $100 so far.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Ahhhh I have this one on my clipboard, was just going to press control-v!

Matt Эллен

I'm like a youtube ninja

Cerberus

I was trying to find one of the original ones, because this one is less funny. But so be it.

Kit may not like it.

@Kitḫ Huh what's this?

@MattЭллен Do you like LB generally?

I like it all right, but the plots are a bit too thin for me.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus nah, not normally. i'm not a big fan of the style of comedy

Cerberus

6:03 PM

I like Lou and Andy best.

@MattЭллен Hmm how would you describe the style?

Matt Эллен

although short sketch comedy I do like

Cerberus

Hmm...

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus catch-phrase cringe

Cerberus

Yes, kind of true.

Matt Эллен

but I do enjoy hearing about it

Cerberus

6:03 PM

Haha.

Yeah same for me.

It's just too simple.

Matt Эллен

I think they've been over played, like a pop song or something

Cerberus

Yeah.

And what about The League of Gentlemen?

I like that very much.

Matt Эллен

I never got on with it

Cerberus

Hmm.

Matt Эллен

but I heard there was a plot. so I might give it another go

Cerberus

6:05 PM

Oh, yes, there certainly is. Many plots and subplots.

Matt Эллен

I see

Cerberus

Not that they all make much sense.

But many do.

Matt Эллен

I don't think I got that before. I thought it was just a bunch of grossout/weird stuff

Cerberus

Hmm yes, you need to watch a few episode to see any development.

And some of the plots suck.

There's three guys who just talk and shout: I don't find them funny at all.

But Pauleen and the Job agency is fun.

Matt Эллен

I see

Cerberus

6:06 PM

As is Papalazarou.

Oh, well.

Matt Эллен

:D I've seen part of that, Dave

Cerberus

Yay!

Matt Эллен

You're my wife now

Cerberus

Kit didn't like that one.

user19161

Who is Dave?

Matt Эллен

6:07 PM

I can understand

user19161

Who is whose wife?

Cerberus

@WillHunting May I come in? My wife would like to use your bathroom, Dave.

Matt Эллен

Cerberus is papa lazarou's wife?

Cerberus

Jasper is performing the role of New Wife quite well. He is saying the correct lines, "who is Dave?".

MetaEd

C'mon, Pond.

Matt Эллен

6:08 PM

lol

user19161

HB!

MetaEd

Allons-y!

Matt Эллен

Dr.! you've regenerated into a cockatiel

Cerberus

@WillHunting You probably won't like it:

MetaEd

What? African? Or European?

Cerberus

6:09 PM

►

Ah, fuck this spam control. I can't just type normally.

MetaEd

this is the room for random quotations, right? XD

Jelly baby?

user19161

2

Q: past participle of fly

In a song by Coldplay - Paradise - I found the sentence- I quote:"away she flied". I'm Italian, and I was not sure that "flied" could be a form of the verb fly unknown to me or some other word. I looked it up in the online dictioantries, and I found out that it is a term used inBaseball. Could s...

user19161

GR

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Redrum.

3

Q: When and why is "flied" used as the past tense of "fly"?

Why is the form "flied" used in baseball instead of "flew"?

grammar past-tense

user19161

I love making things EXPAND in this room!

Matt Эллен

6:12 PM

@Cerberus you still having the delay problem?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Also, itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004151.html

user19161

0

Q: Why is "hiccup" spelled with two c's?

Is there a historical or grammatical reason for spelling hiccup with two c's?

spelling

user19161

Never seen him before but he looks cute.

Matt Эллен

because if you only spell hiccup with one c you've spelled it wrong

user19161

-2

Q: Related to Behaviour Science

I need to know what do you call the person who written always on written things. I have Read in my behaviour Science.Its is something called(kythopatic) but not confirm. Please tell if some know this or heard about this.

vocabulary

user19161

6:14 PM

Why is this STILL open?

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Always. That is, it happens sometimes, and, when it does, it lasts an hour or so.

You never have it?

Matt Эллен

rarely. I think I've had your problem 2 or 3 times

Cerberus

I think it switches on when I type a few lines fast.

Matt Эллен

I get told to wait occasionally, when I try and paste something quickly after saying something else

Cerberus

When it switches on, I suddenly have to wait 5 seconds between lines. Sometimes even 10.

Matt Эллен

6:16 PM

but that's to be expected

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I left a comment on Margherita's question linking to that Language Log post. Except that somebody snuck in a fifth comment right before mine, and now it's below the fold. So I dunno, go upvote it OVER 9000 times or something. Kthxbayes.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus I remember you saying. That's quite annoying

Cerberus

@MattЭллен I think that sucks too, but at least it is expected, and it can be avoided.

@MattЭллен Perhaps I type more...

Matt Эллен

perhaps

Cerberus

@RegDwightѬſ道 Aww. Where?

Matt Эллен

6:18 PM

or perhaps you don't type enough!

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Ehhh...

Matt Эллен

:D

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Cerberus there.

user19161

@RegDwightѬſ道 Done. Kthxbai.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Wowies ur so helpful lol.

Matt Эллен

6:19 PM

@Cerberus I think it's more likely something to do with your internet connection

Cerberus

@RegDwightѬſ道 I see no comments?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Sorry wrong copypasta roflmao.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Yeah? But why?

@RegDwightѬſ道 Y U make me read stupid question!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I no make read u stuff ur stoopid lol.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus it's something to do with the time it takes what you've said to go from green to black, I think. some sort of XMLHTTPRequest thing

RegDwight Ѭſ道

6:21 PM

Just upvote u no, not read geez.

Cerberus

@RegDwightѬſ道 Look at my face. Does this face look bothered? I ain't bothered!

user19161

0

Q: Should I use present or past tense when referring to a (scientific) paper?

In the two examples below, which tense is preferred? "Smith (2001) noted that ..." or "Smith (2001) notes that ..." "The paper established ..." or "The paper establishes ..." If both forms are equally valid, is it customary to use both forms within a text, or should I stick to one form?

phrases tense

user19161

dup

Matt Эллен

*bovverd

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Hmm yes, sometimes it stays green for a longer time.

@MattЭллен Oops!

Matt Эллен

6:22 PM

@Cerberus green implies that it hasn't been shown to the rest of the participants, so it's possibly not at the server yet

Cerberus

But why do I have this problem here, while nobody else does, while my internet connection is otherwise fast and stable?

Matt Эллен

I don't know :(

Cerberus

Hmm.

MetaEd

@WillHunting The question was written by an ESL, possibly entered on the Indian subcontinent. I thought it would be reasonable to wait 24 hours for a clarification.

user19161

@Cerberus There are many mysterious things in this world.

Cerberus

6:23 PM

Can I do something about it?

Kitḫ

Hey @Cerb, now my son knows the word "fuck." Thanks.

Matt Эллен

possibly

Cerberus

@Kitḫ Yesss another little soul corrupted!

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus have you tried being here in Chrome?

user19161

@Cerberus Not corruption but edification. It's good to know new words.

Cerberus

6:24 PM

@MattЭллен I think so, and I think it happened there too. But I don't want to be without my precious extensions anyway.

Matt Эллен

true, that would be a pain

Cerberus

@WillHunting Absolutely.

user19161

@Cerberus The problem is that people get offended for no reason. Sex is beautiful. Why should the f word be considered vulgar?

Cerberus

It is vulgar.

I would never use it for real, nor the Dutch equivalent.

user19161

@Cerberus Because the world made it so.

user19161

6:27 PM

In a better world it would be a beautiful word.

Matt Эллен

it's how words get their meanings, @WillHunting

Cerberus

Hardly.

I'm not talking about the action, but the word.

The action is not vulgar.

Not when done the right way anyway.

Matt Эллен

:D

user19161

Pardon my ignorance!

MetaEd

Hardly, indeed.

user19161

6:41 PM

Barrie is on track to overtake Robusto this year.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MetaEd Yeah, trying to explain Arrays was my downfall. There are two kinds: real arrays of memory, and the more advance things which are only superficially like arrays. What Cerb needs is the latter, but the former is what gets taught first.

user19161

I predict the top three spots would go to Barrie, Robusto, Fumble. Let's see if I'm right at the end of 2012!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Kitḫ Why are you thanking Cerb?

Matt Эллен

> you're still much too young to throw a successful cocktail party, and frankly, anyone who still dribbles on himself probably wouldn't make the ideal dinner guest

user19161

@mahnax What was the question that you got wrong for the math test, the one on the roots?

Matt Эллен

6:45 PM

this is why I don't get invited back

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Hmmm...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен Who are you quoting

Matt Эллен

the alterego game :D

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Do you want me to explain "real" arrays? or collection objects?

Cerberus

@WillHunting Hmm I nearly always disagree 100 % with Barrie.

And I nearly always agree 100 % with Fumble.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Um, are real arrays the things having to do with memory?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

6:47 PM

@Cerberus Barrie's not all that opinionated in his answers, how is there anything to disagree with so much?

user19161

@Cerberus I disagree with Barrie more than I disagree with Fumble more than I disagree with you!

Cerberus

He is very much so.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus yes. But it all boils down to memory somewhere.

Cerberus

Sure, but I think you mean memory blocks and whatnot?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

And if you start programming in a language like Javascript, which has Arrays, that resemble memory but aren't, it will help to know the diference

So a variable is stored in memory. Some variables, like numbers, are small and take up (say) 4 bytes of memory. But if you have lots of numbers, you can store them all in a row, so that all you need to access those numbers is a pointer to the start and an offset from that pointer.

Kinda like books on your shelf. One book is easy to manage. But a 20-volume set is harder.

user19161

6:49 PM

I also think that many of FF's comments should actually be posted as answers so that the question is answered.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Barrie is on a permanent crusade against traditional ways of describing grammar, and against advising people about style, even though he doesn't violate any rules of style himself.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

If you know where the first volume is, you can blindly find the right volume based on the offset from the last volume. So the Z volume of the encycolpedia is 26 book-spines away from the A volume.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yes, I tried to do this in my IPA script (loop-parse a string), but it didn't work with Unicode, so I had to use the method I showed you earlier.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus There are probably several reasons why it didn't work as you expected on your string. I'm not going to try to get into that, I don't have all day :)

Cerberus

I wanted something like key_a := a,æ,ɑ,ʌ

@MrShinyandNew安宇 No no, it was just the unicode.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

6:52 PM

One idea that you have to come to terms with is that programmers re-use small bits of code all the time. So the code has to be made generic.

Cerberus

I understand that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus no, not getting into it. "just the unicode" exposes so many flaws in your current thinking of strings and characters.

Cerberus

Why?

It worked when I used a string that didn't have unicode characters.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So if I am dealing with lots of locations in memory, then it is useful to have an array, because it becomes one location.

53 secs ago, by Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus no, not getting into it. "just the unicode" exposes so many flaws in your current thinking of strings and characters.

(read the first part :) )

Cerberus

Well, that's hardly elucidating.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

6:53 PM

So instead of "strings" let's just talk about arrays of characters.

and let's assume each character is one byte.

Cerberus

Fine.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I don't want to try to explain what you need to know about strings for that.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus Joel on unicode

Cerberus

OK.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So your array of characters is c,e,r,b,e,r,u,s and you can point to the start of the array with a pointer that points to "c", and you can find b by moving 3 bytes along from where c is stored.

This is much easier than having a variable for each letter in your string.

There is one final complication, which is that you need to know the length of the array, otherwise you don't know if your string is 'cerberus' or 'cerberus is a mythical animal who hangs out in an english chatroom learning how to program computers'.

In the first case the length is 7 and in the 2nd it's ... long. whatever.

Cerberus

6:57 PM

@MattЭллен Hmm I'll read that later; teacher won;t like it if I don;t pay attention.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Let's just say that somewhere you store an integer that contains the length of the string.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 But why?

That is the essential part that I don't get.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Because when you want to print your string on the screen, you have to know which characters to print.

and the print() function can't take an unlimited number of parameters.