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1:00 PM
@KitΘδς Right, because the goal behind competition is getting admiration?
 
Isn't that generally the case?
 
@Cerberus Yes.
 
Yes.
I was just filling in the missing link.
 
But men tend to emulate and physically challenge each other.
Women tend to connive and backstab.
 
1:01 PM
And yet he didn't seem to challenge people in a competitive way.
 
@Cerberus That's not what I was getting at. I think he admires you. He rejects your advice because he is challenging you.
 
You overgeneralize Kit
 
@BogdanLataianu Always do.
 
@KitΘδς Hmm.
I am no psychologist.
 
Personally, I think he would greatly benefit from a strong male role model.
Especially if what I guess about his childhood trauma is correct.
 
1:03 PM
Then what did you guess?
 
@GraceNote Would that actually work, or would he just be mortified?
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 He did seem to like it when people were all going, "no stay!" in here.
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 From what his statements in chat earlier implied, he feels "like an alien", an outsider, due to this event. I think it would work better if we had a more universal sign of us wanting him to stay
 
relation and relationship? what the difference?
 
@esperisto there are multiple meanings for both. you'd need to put both in context
 
1:05 PM
@esperisto I have a relation to my brother. I don't have a relationship with my brother.
(To use one specific meaning of each)
 
@Cerberus I would guess that he was abused and neglected by his father. He shows pretty clear signs that he is uncertain about what is expected of him as "a man" as though he lacks a good adult male relationship.
 
:1655659 Hence the qualifying parenthetical
 
@GraceNote hence the deleting :)
 
Hehe
 
@KitΘδς Hmm OK.
 
1:07 PM
That said, I think I picked the wrong... uh... word... thing. I want to say preposition but I always get all those stop word terminologies wrong.
 
Has mentioned OCD and Post-traumatic stress disorder.
 
in the dictionary, we got both as Guanxi in chinese.
 
@GraceNote Parenthesis?
 
@Cerberus Also, the expression of his crush on Lauren and other ways he's talked about having relationships suggests that he has not seen a positive, healthy, normal relationship between two adults.
 
@Cerberus ()
 
1:07 PM
@Cerberus with vs. to
 
@GraceNote Preposition is right, I think.
 
@KitΘδς His friends?
 
@GraceNote i don't know the meaning of the two sentences
 
@GraceNote Those are prepositions.
 
@GraceNote with makes sense
 
1:08 PM
@Cerberus Peers don't count. You can't model on peers, only people who you look up to.
 
@esperisto The distinction between relation and relationship is subtle and there are multiple overlapping meanings.
 
@esperisto Basically, both can mean the exact same thing - that there is some way X relates to Y.
 
@KitΘδς Hmm. Well I don't know enough about this stuff. It sounds complicated, and very difficult to draw general conclusions.
 
I was demonstrating that, unqualified, "relationship" has a definition which relates to romance, courtship, and... further, of course.
 
@Cerberus Of course. waves hands I could be completely wrong.
 
1:10 PM
Whereas, "relation" generally doesn't get that connotation, for one reason or another. However, them having the same definition in Chinese is rather par for the course.
 
@GraceNote I'd say that when talking about siblings, relationship does not imply those things.
 
and you can also have relations with someone, and that's something else entirely
 
@KitΘδς Haha, I rather meant that I really have no idea myself.
 
Like, I'd say "I have a good relationship with my brother".
 
I think the adjective kinda helps there.
But that's just me.
 
1:11 PM
@GraceNote What about "I did not have relations with that woman"
 
Did the mod tools suddenly change/go away?
 
I like my brother, but our relationship changed after the war.
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 Can't say I've ever heard that
 
I scanned meta real fast and didn't see anything relevant
 
I guess I'm wrong then, ultimately
 
1:12 PM
thanks you all
 
@GraceNote it's something ex-President Clinton would say
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 Wasn't that W. Clinton?
 
Oh! Nevermind, I found it. They just moved the link.
That was annoying :P
 
Aug 8 at 14:50, by Matt Ellen Д
ok! glad I couldn't help ;)
 
1:14 PM
@MrHen Phew!
I never click that link anyway.
 
@Cerberus There is some interesting stuff :)
 
@Cerberus well, you can't now. they've moved it
 
Is there?
@MattEllenД sad face
 
@Cerberus I think so. Like, "Most upvoted in the last day"
 
@Cerberus you should have taken the opportunity when you had it
 
1:16 PM
@Cerberus No, me!
Jun 17 at 18:55, by Kit
@RegDwight Oh yeah. I've had sexual relations with him as well. Linus was better though.
 
@MrHen That probably means "uninteresting question, skip this" to me.
 
Jul 14 at 15:57, by Kit
@RegDwight Ah, yes. I remember Bernie Taupin. I had sexual relations with him once.
May 23 at 12:46, by Kit
@RegDwight Big deal. I used to have sexual relations with Guido van Rossum.
 
@KitΘδς Did he model that after you?
I was assuming you were the originatrix.
 
How many people have you...
Wait, no, I don't want to ask that question
 
1:17 PM
Wait, there's more...
Jul 1 at 14:57, by Kit
Interesting factoid about Foucault: I had sexual relations in his room one time.
 
Oh good heavens
 
@Cerberus Well, you get a list of like 10 so they tend to be more interesting than the front page.
 
Jul 1 at 17:03, by Kit
@Kit Yet another Nobel laureate with whom I've had sexual relations.
 
@KitΘδς Was there a leather sling in it?
 
Jul 6 at 13:58, by Kit
No, no, I had sexual relations with Salvi; I never modeled for him.
@Cerberus Surprisingly, no.
Jul 11 at 15:15, by Kit
@RegDwight I've had sexual relations with the leaders of six different countries, so I think that qualifies me as an expert at geopolitical affairs.
 
1:18 PM
@MrHen I dunno. I like the linguistic questions best, and they usually don't get many votes.
 
phew
Think I'm spent now.
 
@Kit none of that impresses me until you put Richard Stallman on that list.
 
@KitΘδς What's all this bragging anyway? I don't believe one bit of it!
 
@Cerberus Fair enough. But I still think the numbers are interesting
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 Oh, I had sexual relations with Richard Stallman as well, before he was too hairy to, well, you know.
 
1:19 PM
@KitΘδς before he was hairy? when was that, when he was 14? :p
 
Although I did just scan through the highest voted answers and was sad.
 
@MrHen And I do encourage your checking those!
 
@MrHen I have a horrible feeling one of mine is in there.
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 He said he was old enough, and he had his own car...
 
@KitΘδς And you were, what, 2? :p
 
1:20 PM
Luckily I don't know who all these people are.
 
@Cerberus otherwise you'd be jealous?
 
Perhaps!
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 Not even born yet. That's how good I am.
 
@MattEllenД It's possible. If you ever get a 10+ answer it shows up on the list.
 
And I'd have weird images in my head.
 
1:21 PM
@KitΘδς That is special indeed.
 
@MrHen :D I had an answer about toilets upvoted to 30
not my proudest moment
 
Shocking.
 
@Cerberus Come on, now. Guido was a Dutchman.
 
So?
 
Guido is a Dutchman, surely?
unless you have your finger where the pulse should be
 
1:24 PM
@MattEllenД He was before he had sexual relations with me. Now he is one of my minions.
 
@KitΘδς oh! that explains a lot
 
Once you go Kit, you um. Really get bit?
 
@KitΘδς So the rumours are true! I was hoping as much :D
 
Are these famous people?
I never know people.
 
Depends on what you consider famous.
 
1:29 PM
@KitΘδς yet more evidence why you should never trust a language named after a snake
 
@KitΘδς Then, yes.
 
@Cerberus Some of these are easy to google, such as Guido van Rossum. And Linus is (I assume) Linus Torvalds, also quite famous. Richard Stallman. All of these are big players in the computer world, for various reasons.
Bernie Taupin: wrote songs for Elton John.
 
I see.
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 So that's how Kit knows Reg!
 
Let's see. Til Schweiger is an actor and director. Linus Tolvalds, well, Linux. Guido van Rossum, python. Bernie Taupin, Elton John's friend.
 
1:31 PM
@MrShinyandNew安宇 So, thanks, that saved me a lot of Google work!
 
Salvador Dali and Albert Camus, I hope you know already.
 
@KitΘδς Von or van?
@KitΘδς I know them.
Van Rossum is a well-known last name.
 
van, sorry.
 
And they say women do not care for competition!
 
I didn't know Albert Camus, sorry.
 
1:32 PM
Famous French author.
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 it's ok, nor did I :)
 
another one that you snagged in a past life, I imagine...
 
He and Jean Paul Sartre were friends, then enemies.
 
@KitΘδς let me guess, they were fighting over you.
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 Oh yes, along with Dali.
 
1:33 PM
I remember Huis Clos.
 
hey everyone
 
hi @Lauren!
 
Hi!
 
@LaurenΨ good morning
 
@Cerberus We read that in fifth-year French.
 
1:33 PM
sorry to interrupt a conversation!
i was wondering if anyone has any site promotion ideas?
 
We were just talking about all the people I have had sexual relations with.
 
@KitΘδς Same here! Wasn't Camus supposed to be in it or something?
 
haha
 
Sounds like kit does...
 
fun topic
 
1:34 PM
Site promotion? Where?
 
well carry on
 
@LaurenΨ Truly.
 
I'm trying to come up with good ways to promote the ELU site
e.g. sponsoring blog contests, doing giveaways
 
@LaurenΨ How about some swag for top users?
 
I was wondering if anyone knows of good linguistic conferences?
 
1:35 PM
In order to get more users?
 
that is already in the works!
yep in order to get more users/posts
 
How is the number of users doing anyway? Is it rising? Falling?
 
@KitΘδς You guys still haven't gotten it?
 
There are a number of linguistics blogs, such as Language Log, maybe we could get them to help us out. or something.
 
Nope.
 
1:36 PM
@GraceNote I haven't.
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 Weren't we cited by Language Log once, or was that some other site? Language Hat?
 
@GraceNote me neither
 
@KitΘδς If you haven't, I imagine no one on English has
 
since i started working it's gradually gone up, but we want to promote it more
 
@Cerberus I don't recall anything on LL. I don't follow language hat
 
1:37 PM
OK.
 
@GraceNote it's being sent out soon
 
@GraceNote Because I'm first on the list?
 
Woo!
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 OK perhaps I am mistaken.
 
@KitΘδς No, by guesstimation and *totally accurate awesome I am me hahahaha waha I was right"-ness.
 
1:37 PM
I don't know the exact timeline but we were talking about it yesterday and it shouldn't be too long
 
@KitΘδς You are always everyone's first; but the other way around...
 
@Cerberus I've never been anyone's first.
Well, depending on how you define first.
 
Oh.
How do you know?
 
Ahhh, I just do?
 
You can feel it?
I didn't know that was possible.
 
1:39 PM
@KitΘδς I don't think that needs further explanation
 
Are you trying to tell me that boys lie about their sexual exploits?
 
But women have magical powers of Empathy that we are told we lack, so...
@KitΘδς Of course not!
How dare you insinuate that!
 
Well, then, I'm pretty sure.
 
@KitΘδς boys maybe. Men? never ;)
 
So @Lauren, what kinds of things are the other sites doing for promotion? Can we poach their ideas?
 
1:41 PM
@Matt puffs his chest and struts.
 
yeah so the other site I'm working on is fitness
 
@KitΘδς :D like a cockerel
 
Haha.
 
and i'm planning to go to races in the area and hand out SE stuff
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 Brett's going crazy on Gaming
 
1:42 PM
maybe sponsor a few races or after parties
so I'm trying to think of analogous things for english
 
We've got conventions, posters, mousepads, contests, our Promotional Grant, beta playtesting...
 
are there any linguistic conferences or meetups you guys know of?
 
@LaurenΨ Libraries, book signings, and orgies.
 
@Lauren - you could try looking for book festivals. If I'd have known I would have taken something to Edinburgh.
 
haha
cool
looks like theres a book fest in brooklyn in september
good call!
 
1:43 PM
That sounds like fun.
 
are any of you in the nyc area?
 
Maybe we could get in touch with schools to promote this site as a learning/teaching resource
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 Noooooo!!!
 
that would be great actually - you think universities would promote it? or would high schools be better since they're smaller
no?
 
1:45 PM
I second Kit.
 
@LaurenΨ it might draw the wrong crowd (of screaming children)
 
haha fair enough
 
universities might be ok
 
and sulking children.
 
tons of "do my hw for me" questions
 
1:46 PM
yeah
 
Exactly.
 
And children who want to game the system by sockpuppeting.
 
And genref.
Universities are full of foreign students who want to improve their English.
 
yeah, I was thinking more along the lines of university, since afaik most high schools don't even bother with grammar or anything like that.
 
And who ask questions like "What are all the different meanings of fuck?" and "What's a good synonym for fuck?" and "Do Australians use fuck like we do?"
 
1:47 PM
I'm not against genref in principle, but if you look at the FAQ...
Yeah that too.
 
A lot of universities already have grammar references online which cover some of the same ground that we do. If we could replace that for them, or complement it....
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 Oh right. They changed that since I was a kid, what with the No Child Left Behind thing.
 
all great ideas - thanks everyone
 
@KitΘδς Well, when I was in school, we learned nouns, verbs, adjectives, adverbs, subject, predicate, and prepositions. I don't think we learned any of the other parts of speech and certainly not some of the more advanced stuff. I learned more grammar in French class.
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 i'm not sure if we replace a general grammatical reference, but we surely complement it with our ability to answer targeted questions
 
1:49 PM
Really?
 
after all, we're not trying to replace the existing references. that's why we have the gen ref close reason
 
We learned that all when we were 7–13.
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 i learned absolutely nothing about any of this in public school. when i switched to a private school in 6th grade, i was suddenly overwhelmed, because they expected the students to already know most of that stuff, and i spent a few months frantically covering the grammar that i had never gotten in the previous 5 years
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 yep I learned most about grammar from French and Spanish classes - English was about lit, not lang
 
@Cerberus in most american state schools there is no explicit grammar instruction at all (IME. YMMV)
 
1:51 PM
@LaurenΨ you're welcome!
 
I actually think I learned the most about grammar in my foreign language classes lol
 
@JSBᾶngs But how do they learn to write? And what about high school: how can you study literature without grammar?
 
@Cerberus have you ever wondered why we get so many questions that seem fundamentally confused about the parts of speech and other things? that's why.
 
@Cerberus well, you can study literature without explicitly understanding grammar. especially if it's in your own language
 
it's possible to be a competent writer with only an implicit or passive understanding of grammar, though
@Matt jinx
 
1:53 PM
@Cerberus You understand the grammar implicitly because you are a fluent speaker, so when you study lit you focus on the deeper issues like meaning, word choice, etc.
 
@JSBᾶngs Yeah I supposed I did know. Just not that it was so extreme.
 
the higher constructs like metaphor and such don't require a basic understanding of grammar
 
@MattEllenД I really think you're missing essential points then...
 
@Cerberus this is also why solecisms like "passive tense" are so common it makes me want to weep
 
1:54 PM
@JSBᾶngs But it would seem much harder to learn elementary writing skills...? It goes much faster and easier if you know your grammar, as a kid.
 
@Cerberus I am on the fence about it. I would have liked to have learned English grammar at school, but I don't know that it is easy for teachers who are not linguists to teach because it is innate to us
 
@Cerberus Sometimes you are missing details. But often, for a native speaker, you can just write what comes naturally, and it will be grammatical. And you can read things that are grammatical and understand them. And you can work out things that are questionably grammatical (or simply over complicated).
 
@Cerberus i definitely support learning grammar, but i'm not sure that i support it for that reason
 
I can't imagine many of the pupils would have got on well with it
 
anyway, i'm off to a meeting now
 
1:55 PM
@MrShinyandNew安宇 I don't know... I study the classics, and we refer to grammar all the time. Not because I am actually using rules when I'm reading, but as a tool for analysis.
 
one last thing:
1
Q: Is this question grammatically correct? - 'Have you ever drunk XYZ?'

Ganesh SrinivasI am not a native English speaker. Suppose, I wish to ask an audience whether they have ever had some particular drink (alcoholic)? How am I supposed to ask it? Is.. Have any of you drunk Carlsberg Beer? Is the above question grammatically correct? If not, can anybody correct me? How do I c...

 
@Cerberus I don't know. I didn't have any problem except a few words I had trouble spelling. it wasn't an issue of grammar
 
^ gen ref? or something... i voted to close
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 I'm not saying it isn't possible (it is evidently possible); but it would seem more efficient if you were teaching kids to write to use grammar, instead of having them figure everything out from examples.
Ugh that sentence is ugly.
 
@JSBᾶngs Maybe. It's one of those that people stumble over a lot.
 
1:59 PM
I mean, if you use grammar education, I'd imagine you could teach children how to write proper sentences more easily.
 
@Cerberus We did a lot of grammar and writing exercises, diagramming sentences and whatnot, when I was in elementary school.
 
Ah!
Exactly.
 

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