Maid Café (メイド喫茶)

JNat

9:00 PM

@Shog9 the community one is, but the chat one is not, right?

Madara Uchiha

Nice

I've removed the old one and made a new one

Seems like the banner is cached

Okay folks, let's begin

@LoganM said he was probably going to be late

JNat

@MadaraUchiha you know how to bookmark the conversation?

Mysticial

@JNat Yeah, we're both experienced room owners from SO.

Madara Uchiha

From this point onwards, please keep chitchat to the minimum, I will bookmark the conversation once it has ended

We're starting now.

JNat

@Mysticial ok :)

Alenanno

9:02 PM

@MadaraUchiha psst make a bold black statement like "Starting ..." and another one when it ends. It's easier to bookmark later.

Madara Uchiha

We've gathered here today, to discuss several issues, and offer solutions in a brainstorming manner.

Mysticial

So the point of this discussion is to define what is a list question. And decide the rules that determine what kind of list questions should be allowed and what should be closed.

Madara Uchiha

We'd like to discuss, in this order: List questions, and specifically the borders where a constructive list become unconstructive. And if we have time, how to recruit more members to the community.

Alenanno

I think as a starter, if you haven't, you should check this Blog post about Good subjective and Bad subjective.

Blog - Stack Exchange: Good Subjective, Bad Subjective

Robert Cartaino on September 29, 2010

Stack Exchange is about questions with objective, factual answers. We’ve been crystal clear about this for as long as I can remember, even back to the earliest, pre-beta days of Stack Overflow. It’s right there in the standard Stack Exchange FAQ:

What kind of questions should I not ask here?

Avoid asking questions that are subjective, argumentative, or require extended discussion. This is not a discussion board, this is a place for questions that can be answered!

Thus, questions that are not answerable — discussions, debates, opinions — should be closed as subjective. It seems simple enough: Fact good; opinion and discussion bad. But why? …

Madara Uchiha

I think they key points in list questions are scope and maintainability.

Mysticial

9:04 PM

Currently, the network consensus seems to be strongly against any sort of list question without exception. However, a strict interpretation of that will rule out a lot of potential good questions.

Madara Uchiha

If a list is expected to be very long (i.e. "What are all of the rules in a Death Note"), it's not scoped properly, and should be closed as a NARQ

Mysticial

For example: "Who are all the level 5's in the Index/Railgun universe?"

Is a list question.

But is it really a bad list question?

Alenanno

@Mysticial What's the asnwer?

jkerian

I think the consensus is against subjective questions, not actual list questions.... "list questions" tends to be shorthand for "List your favorite..."

Mysticial

@Alenanno The answer is a list of 7 or 8 people.

So I came up a with a criteria for determining whether a list question is acceptable:

19 hours ago, by Mysticial

Here's a possibility: Allow list questions that:
1. Ask for a specific list.
2. The the items that belong on that list can be determined objectively.
3. The list isn't too long.
4. The list isn't changing.

Alenanno

9:06 PM

@Mysticial Is the number going to change over time? If not, it's OK.

Mysticial

Critiques?

Alenanno

@Mysticial No, those are good points.

JNat

@Alenanno that could mean that a question as such, but for an on-going series would not be allowed?

Alenanno

@Mysticial It's what me (and I guess other mods) use as an unwritten rule.

Mysticial

@Alenanno For that particular Index/Railgun question, even if it does change, it wouldn't change very fast.

Alenanno

9:08 PM

It depends. If you ask "who are the characters in series X?" (extreme example), it's going to change at every episode. Questions usually point single instances. Such a question wouldn't be bad per se, but it'd get outdated almost immediately and... who is going to update it? No-one. That's the problem, I think.

Mysticial

Here are my thoughts on those 4 rules:
- If it fails #1, close as NARQ. Because it's hard to tell what it being asked.
- If it fails #2, close as not constructive because it's subjective.
- If it fails #3, close as NARQ because it isn't reasonably scoped.
- If it fails #4, I'm not sure here. What are your thoughts?

Madara Uchiha

@Alenanno Unless the question is epic useful, I don't see a way for it to be maintained easily.

If it is super useful, a post notice regarding a rapidly changing event, and CW are there to help us.

Mysticial

@Alenanno I would consider that a bad question because it fails both 3 and 4.

CW can indeed help with ever-changing lists.

Alenanno

@MadaraUchiha Ok, but don't CW a question "so we can save it". CW is for special cases.

I CW'ed only the resources questions on my sites, that's it.

Madara Uchiha

@Alenanno No, CW the answer

Alenanno

9:10 PM

Ah there. :P

Mysticial

Most likely, the only reasonable for for such questions would be a single CW answer that keeps getting updated.

Madara Uchiha

I think those 4 guidelines are the key for us

Jon Lin

I think instead of #3 being "isn't too long" it should just be "reasonably scoped". "too long" is not really that useful as a metric

2

Mysticial

There isn't really a point for having other answers.

@JonLin Good point.

Logan M

@MadaraUchiha I just got here and read everything up to this point. My chat is still really laggy, so I might be a couple posts behind at any given time, but at least I'll be here.

Alenanno

9:13 PM

@Mysticial Yes but don't be afraid to close it unless the question is really good.

Madara Uchiha

Just a reminder, stars are kept in a bookmark, so do star useful messages

Logan M

@JonLin Agreed. Too long is penalizing the questioner when they don't know whether the list will be long or not. Reasonably scoped is much fairer.

Mysticial

So we should try running the list down a few of the list questions we have so far.

Madara Uchiha

@Mysticial The Zombies question fails at #1

JNat

@Mysticial let's start with the one that caused the discussion

Mysticial

9:15 PM

-1

Q: Is there a definitive list of Zombie Anime out there or in the making?

I am looking for a list of zombie anime that I hope will prove to be more mature than High School of the Dead (read: minus the absurd fan service). What other zombie anime is out there?

highschool-of-the-dead

@MadaraUchiha And I'd say it also fails at #3 and #4.

Alenanno

I want to express one point, for closing in general.

Logan M

@Mysticial Did someone compile that list?

Alenanno

I repeat what I said earlier: I know it sucks to close a question, we all want to help the OP. But closing is one of the ways you can keep your site of good quality. In my sites, when someone asks a translation request without providing some effort, I close it. The question might be good, but by closing I make sure that behavior is not encouraged. Future users will think "hey if I don't do that, my question will get closed". This type of thinking will self-educate your users.

Mysticial

@LoganM I don't think so.

JNat

@Mysticial I agree it fails #4

@LoganM I did

there's not much

wait

-4

Q: What are the animes where characters portray Buddha or Buddhist themes?

I like anime/manga and I love Zen/Buddhism stories too. Is there a list of animes where the characters are portraying Buddha or Buddhist themes or stories?

character-abilities

Madara Uchiha

9:17 PM

@JNat It's basically the same

JNat

-4

Q: series release time

how find release time of naruto Shippuden, one piece and etc? now every day we must check sites and other place to see is there any item for see. also i check wikepedia to find absolute time [Naruto - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naruto], but there is no result

naruto one-piece

Madara Uchiha

Fails at #1 and #4, perhaps #3 as well.

JNat

-3

Q: What resources discuss the cultural impact of nuclear weapons in Japan?

Watching Akira and Grave of the Butterflies, it is apparent that these works were shaped by nuclear weapons' effect on Japanese culture. Are there any academic or other studies that not only discuss specific examples of works where this is thematic, but also specific tropes in anime and manga tha...

akira tropes

Logan M

I think both of these are bad for the same reasons.

Madara Uchiha

@JNat That's a different beast.

JNat

9:18 PM

should I post them all now?

Mysticial

@MadaraUchiha I don't think it fails #1, but it definitely fails #3 and #4.

@JNat How many are there?

JNat

two more

And they are slightly different

Mysticial

Go ahead.

JNat

6

Q: What particular anime first showcased crossovers?

Well, the question says it all. I'm really interested in the idea of cross-overs in anime. I want to know which particular company or manga group artists started the idea of cross-overs and what particular anime(s) showed cross-overs (in anime history) and the characters involved in it. As I ha...

anime-history crossovers

this is the only one that is open

Mysticial

Oooh, that's a good one.

JNat

9:19 PM

and there's this one

0

Q: Where to find the current news on Spice and Wolf season 3?

What would be an authoritative source of news on "Spice and Wolf"? As the show has stalled after season 2, it seems S3 is being pushed year by year. There are countless rumors and speculations, meanwhile little solid facts are known. I'm tired of hunt-and-peck on various fora that bump in the ni...

spice-and-wolf

that is different

Madara Uchiha

Let's differentiate

Mysticial

@JNat That one passes #3 and #4. But I'm questioning the first 2.

Madara Uchiha

Questions asking for a list, isn't the same as a question asking for resources.

Mysticial

@MadaraUchiha Or asking for a list of resources.

JNat

@Mysticial that was my interpretation

Mysticial

9:20 PM

I'd say we can apply the same rules.

If there's only a few good resources to list, I'd say it's useful to have the question.

Logan M

@JNat Wait what are the criteria you are using for these questions? I thought these were all supposed to be list questions.

Madara Uchiha

@Mysticial But there is the problem

We need to establish the guidelines so that they are clear for the OP, not the answerer.

The OP doesn't know if there's only a few good sources.

JNat

@LoganM they either ask for lists, or for resources (which I interpreted as being compilable in a list)

Mysticial

@MadaraUchiha True, it's gonna be hard to determine from the start.

But if other's know, then it can be decided for the OP.

Logan M

What about anime.stackexchange.com/questions/820/… and maybe anime.stackexchange.com/questions/2089/…?

Madara Uchiha

9:22 PM

@Mysticial I disagree it's a source for inconsistency.

Also, "good" resources fails at #2.

Mysticial

@MadaraUchiha I don't think it can possibly be made 100% consistent.

Madara Uchiha

@LoganM The first passes fine

JNat

@MadaraUchiha but authoritative don't

@LoganM I don't think the 2nd asks for a list, or at least the list is not the main objective of the question

Mysticial

@LoganM I don't see how the second one is a list question.

Madara Uchiha

@JNat If you're looking for authoritative references, but haven't found it on Google, something is wrong with you.

JNat

9:24 PM

@MadaraUchiha point taken

@MadaraUchiha but at the same time, and as @Shog9 said yesterday, they might ask here because they trust that we know more about the subject than they do

Mysticial

@MadaraUchiha Would it be reasonable for the question to become that authoritative reference?

It's not like it hasn't happened before on SO.

Which is kind of the point of SE.

Madara Uchiha

@Mysticial It's rare, and it happens when something proves to be very useful

Like the operators reference

Mysticial

@MadaraUchiha I'd say we should keep the door open on such questions.

JNat

@MadaraUchiha: he said "he thinks you're the kid at the video rental shop who's watched every movie in the place and will happily recommend one based on another one just to have someone to talk to. "

Logan M

@Mysticial I interpreted a list question as any question where the answerer would need to provide a list. In this case, at least for my answer, I listed out all the series and where they fall.

JNat

9:27 PM

@LoganM but I do not think that fits in the same category, though

Mysticial

@LoganM I see it now. I missed the last sentence in the question.

@JNat Technically it does ask for a list. But it passes all 4 categories, and I don't think there's a problem with that question at all.

@Mysticial Seconded.

@Mysticial agreed

@Mysticial Agreed

Alright

9:29 PM

11

Q: What's the opinion on "list" questions?

I'm wondering what the general opinion on "list" questions in the trilogy - example: List of freely available programming books Are these good questions? I certainly think so, as they help Stack Overflow and the like become central repositories of information. They're also very Googleable. On ...

discussion questions stackexchange list-questions

(note... very old)

Madara Uchiha

So we have our 4 guidelines in place

Mysticial

Likewise, Logan's Madoka runes question, asks for a resource. But it could be answered with a single one.

I don't see the potential for it to degrade.

Madara Uchiha

1. It should be specific
2. It should not be subjective
3. It should be reasonable scoped
4. It should not be subject to rapid change.

3

Mysticial

@MadaraUchiha seconded

Ok, let's bring up the currently airing question.

That one is very controversal.

Logan M

I still think that special consideration should be given to out-of-universe lists. A "List of Anime with X" should only be on topic IMO if X is on topic here.

JNat

9:31 PM

@Mysticial I'd say it is bound to fail #4

Mysticial

2

Q: Where do I find a table / listing of all currently airing anime series?

Is there an website or any kind of document that shows all currently airing series in Japan? Airing dates and times would be great too.

currently-airing

Krazer

@MadaraUchiha But how would one define "reasonably scoped"?

Mysticial

Passes #1 and #2. I don't see it failing #3 since there's only a small number of them.

Logan M

@JNat The site I've been using hasn't changed for at least 3 years, so I don't know if that's rapid.

Mysticial

#4... I'm not so sure actually. There's really only a few good ones out there, and they don't change very fast.

I'm actually in favor of keeping this question.

Madara Uchiha

9:32 PM

@Krazer We probably don't.

It'll be more of a feeling thing. Because there isn't a good definition for it.

@Mysticial I agree

Mysticial

@Krazer So far it's only attracted 7 answers.

I don't actually see it attracting 50+ answers. There really aren't that many sources out there.

Madara Uchiha

It seems scary when you first look at it, but it seems OK to me.

jkerian

@Mysticial Wouldn't this be better handled with a 'link farm' FAQ-like entry?

Mysticial

@MadaraUchiha Agreed.

Krazer

@Mysticial Should we define a range for rapid change? Within a few months? a year? a few weeks?

Logan M

9:34 PM

@Mysticial It has a deleted one also, so 8

Mysticial

@LoganM Ah... I don't have the rep to see it. :(

@jkerian It could.

Logan M

@jkerian IMO this is the better approach.

JNat

@Krazer I'd say a month minimum, but I'm not sure

jkerian

@LoganM It's significantly less likely to be maintained, this way

Mysticial

@Krazer That's a tough call. I'm tempted to define it as "whether it can be maintained".

JNat

9:35 PM

@Krazer probably much more than a month

Madara Uchiha

@jkerian Not really

If the question would be useful, it'll receive a lot of traffic

Which means that users who know sites which aren't on the list are likely to edit to add it

Especially if the answer is CW.

JNat

@Mysticial still, how do you define that? Is an answer that is changed every month "mantainable"?

Mysticial

@MadaraUchiha On the other hand though the downside of cramming it all into one answer is that it becomes harder to tell which are the "better" ones. If we keeping all as separate answers (the whole question being CW), then voting can be done.

@JNat I'd say it depends on how much attention it gets and how willing people are to maintain it.

Madara Uchiha

@Mysticial The thing about resources listing like this, is that voting is done by popularity, not helpfulness.

However, I do get your point

Mysticial

For example, a list of all the Naruto episodes - while scary, is likely to be well maintained once the site has enough traffic.

But a list of all the characters in some obscure anime - maybe not.

The problem is that it's hard to determine that from the beginning.

JNat

9:39 PM

@Mysticial exactly

Madara Uchiha

@Mysticial We get that problem on Stack Overflow all the time.

Someone can ask a question one day, and it would be closed and downvoted.

Mysticial

@MadaraUchiha And there's usually close-reopen wars.

Madara Uchiha

Someone else might ask the exact same question 2 months from then, and it'll be upvoted, and a great answer will come up.

Mysticial

@MadaraUchiha yeah, I've seen that happen all the time.

Madara Uchiha

As for rapid change

Mysticial

9:40 PM

If it hasn't been solved on SO, it's not likely to be easily solved here.

Madara Uchiha

I think that if an answer needs to change every.. say.. 5 episodes or less, it's changing too quickly

Logan M

@Mysticial I think that the list of characters from an obscure anime isn't likely to change, assuming obscure anime has ended. So there really isn't any need for maintenance here. It's still not a good question though.

Madara Uchiha

However, again it's all a matter of helpfulness

If a question is helpful, is is maintained constantly, there's no problem with rapidly changing events

Mysticial

@MadaraUchiha Exactly. So rapidly changing is ok, iff (if and only if) it can be maintained.

It's helpful if it's maintained. It's not if it isn't.

Ultimately it comes down to whether it will be helpful.

Madara Uchiha

Exactly

Mysticial

9:43 PM

On other hand, if something gets out of date, it'll be clear from the edit dates.

And if anyone is willing and able to - they'll update it.

Logan M

I don't think it's any more helpful for us to have a list of Naruto episodes here than just to link to wiki. We might still need to maintain against link rot, but not against new episodes.

Madara Uchiha

So that makes #4 less strict than the other three.

Krazer

@Mysticial Should we set a minimum maintenance interval? What if the answerer gets bored and flakes?

or interest wanes amongst the community

Madara Uchiha

@LoganM Ah, but then a list of Naruto episodes is likely to be searched in google!

Mysticial

@MadaraUchiha It was just an example. Whether it's a good question is completely orthgonal - done by voting.

JNat

9:44 PM

so something like "what are all the Angels' names in Eva?" is allowed? although it respects all 4 points, it can easily be found elsewhere and doesn't real sound like a helpful question. Is it allowed?

Mysticial

@Krazer So you saying that we possibly close down questions that aren't maintained? I'm not disagreeing here, but this actually is the case with a number of SO questions.

@JNat Don't close it. Let it get downvoted.

Logan M

@JNat Most of our answers can easily be found elsewhere. I've worked for maybe 3 or 4, but the rest were just google.

@Mysticial ok, I see

@Mysticial That

@Mysticial Yes.

9:46 PM

I admit that it's less likely to get downvoted here than on SO.

Madara Uchiha

A question which cannot be answered should be closed. A question which isn't clear or helpful should be downvoted.

Mysticial

But ultimately, we're trying to become a resource on the internet. So if that means stealing traffic from other google hits. So be it!

I'm sure that's what SE wants as well. More traffic = more ad revenue.

JNat

So if it respects all four but is not a good question, it is allowed and let the community up/down vote it

Mysticial

@JNat yes

JNat

@Mysticial sounds reasonable to me

Krazer

9:47 PM

@JNat I agree with this.

Madara Uchiha

Alright then, we have a consensus.

Mysticial

Alright, so we use the 4 rules - as per Madara's reworded version.

Madara Uchiha

We have our four guidelines, community voting, and watch for hidden gems of helpfulness.

Mysticial

The currently airing question gets to live.

The zombie question stays closed.

JNat

@Mysticial or maybe now it seems salvageable

Mysticial

9:49 PM

@JNat Let's try it.

JNat

depending on point 4

Mysticial

I'm not sure how to reword it myself.

Madara Uchiha

@JNat I think it's too specific to be considered helpful enough to maintain.

Mysticial

But I do seriously doubt that the zombie question will be well maintained.

Madara Uchiha

However, we can give it a shot.

Mysticial

9:50 PM

@MadaraUchiha We can give it a chance.

Madara Uchiha

Alright then.

Mysticial

We won't see too much action on it for now.

Logan M

@Mysticial There are <30 zombie anime as of now, and we'd only need to maintain it at most once every 3 months. It's a question of whether anyone wants to.

Mysticial

But if and when we grow enough, and the zombie question degrades - then kill it. Since it will fail #4.

Madara Uchiha

Zombie question is reopened for now

JNat

9:51 PM

@MadaraUchiha should such 'too specific to maintain' questions be somehow fitted in some general resources post that could point to places where it is maintained?

Madara Uchiha

Perhaps we'll consider setting a bounty on it so that we can kickstart it, and see how it goes.

Logan M

And 30 is an overestimate. I'd guess 6 or 7 real zombie anime, and a lot of anime which happen to have a zombie or two.

Mysticial

@LoganM Then we leave it open for now to see if anyone wants to post and maintain an answer.

Madara Uchiha

I'd like to use the remaining time we have to talk about user recruitment

I don't want to overflow too much over the 60 minutes we've set

JNat

@MadaraUchiha (I can be here all night)

Madara Uchiha

9:53 PM

@JNat No need to push it (We want the sessions to be bookmarked in wholes). We can always schedule another meeting.

JNat

@MadaraUchiha fine by me

14

Q: Community Promotion Ads - 2013

As it is December 2012, we are now going to reset our Community Promotion Ads for the new year. What are Community Promotion Ads? Community Promotion Ads are community-vetted advertisements that will show up on the main site, in the right sidebar. The purpose of this question is the vetting pro...

discussion community-ads

Mysticial

Before we move on, how should be summarize into a meta post?

So we answer to one of the existing questions?

JNat

14

Q: Community Promotion Ads - 2013

It's been about a year now, so it is now time for the reboot of the Community Promotion Ads! What are Community Promotion Ads? Community Promotion Ads are community-vetted advertisements that will show up on the main site, in the right sidebar. The purpose of this question is the vetting proces...

discussion community-ads

Logan M

@Mysticial I'm still intending to downvote most out-of-universe list questions, because I think they are usually bad questions. So my downvote there is staying even if we open it.

Mysticial

Or do we make a whole new one new meta question about list questions?

Madara Uchiha

9:54 PM

@Mysticial I'll post a featured one after we're done here

Mysticial

@MadaraUchiha Ok, then I guess I'll post an answer summarizing what we've done here.

JNat

@MadaraUchiha yes, it is better to have a support one instead of a discussion

@MadaraUchiha it's sort of an official guideline

Madara Uchiha

Where do we find more people?