Maid Café (メイド喫茶)

Eric

9:00 PM

It's Tate no Yuusha no Nariagari — nhahtdh 37 mins ago

@nhahtdh Any reason to not make this an answer?

It leaves the question as "unanswered" if it's just a comment.

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

@Eric id reqs dampen efforts

Eric

@ʞɹɐzǝɹ Leaving them unanswered when we know the answer just makes that worse.

The less effort we put into ID requests, the less visitors will put in.

Frosteeze

"I hate the ship's rudder, so I'm going to sink the entire ship"

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

if you're gonna sink it at least make a show out of it

then ppl can talk about it and visit the site of the spectacle

Vogel612

@ʞɹɐzǝɹ soo... you're more on the side of full scale "exploding bear traps"?

Eric

9:13 PM

Yeah, exactly.

Vogel612

like.. histo-lock all existing id-requests and flat-out rejecting all new ones?

Eric

Why give cops guns when we can give them rocket launchers!? :D

Hakase

I don't think we should allow id requests at all now

Frosteeze

yeah, look, I know a lot of you hate Id-reqs but making your responses for it bad doesn't make the site look good

@Hakase ok, why?

Eric

This ^

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

9:13 PM

@Vogel612 nah too small scale, think bigger, flashier

Frosteeze

if id-reqs generate bad questions, it's up to YOU as a high ranking user to moderate

Vogel612

@ʞɹɐzǝɹ can it involve you getting locked down by CMs and a full-blown flamewar on meta?

Alagaros

I think we should only allow very decent ones.

Vogel612

@Alagaros the problem is where you draw the line

Matt

@Frosteeze Yeah, high-ranking users (sits smugly on low rep)

Vogel612

9:15 PM

there used to be these ... minimum criteria

@Frosteeze that's not right. It's the "duty" of every user

Alagaros

@Vogel612 Well then we put the requirements higher?

Hakase

they're not the main service, the users that post them make a lot less effort than the rest, and… I'm just not interested in trying to unlazify absolutely random hit&run users who don't show enough appreciation for my efforts

Matt

But I agree with putting effort into the ones we do answer. I know I always try and stick a bit of text and a picture on there if needs be

Vogel612

@Alagaros the problem was they weren't enforced consistently

Eric

@Vogel612 There still are. VTC ones that don't meet them.

Hakase

9:16 PM

I mean when we help the regular users, there is a lot more chance that something good will come out of it, and when we try to help ID requesters… it's practically useless

Eric

@Hakase You don't have to answer it. Saying we should ban them because you're not interested in them is not a good attitude.

Toshinou Kyouko

@JNat yo

Frosteeze

@Vogel612 ideally, but not all users can close questions though?

Toshinou Kyouko

i have the graphs

Frosteeze

what I meant is if you can moderate, use that power

Vogel612

9:17 PM

@Frosteeze but you can flag them for closure, comment on them

edit them

Hakase

kk I'm just saying I don't wanna deal with them anymore myself

Alagaros

fair enough

Hakase

if there's anyone else left who wants, I'm not against

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

I think we need to start making an effort to drown out the id-requests. the more id-requests people see the more they assume it's alright

Toshinou Kyouko

There are people who want them to stay

Vogel612

9:17 PM

@Hakase then ignore the tag. When it's enough of a problem, we can rant about it on meta and agree to kill them.

Hakase

deal

Eric

@ʞɹɐzǝɹ Drown out how? By bringing in more questions outside of that tag? If so, I'm all for it.

Frosteeze

@Hakase I don't think a tag should disappear due to someone's laziness to moderate that tag

Eric

I'd love to see other tags get more attention. The tag bounties were a good idea. (What happened to those?)

Hakase

@Frosteeze it's just that I wanna help but I can't and it's bumming me out

:(

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

9:18 PM

@Eric low attention

Vogel612

I actually enjoy reading well written id-requests

in answer just like question

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

forcing tags on to users doesn't work, we've found that out many times

Vogel612

but I usually don't put that much effort in finding stuff that didn't already ring a bell

Frosteeze

Thing is anime is obscure. If you're going to eliminate Id-Reqs you're going to prevent more people from being interested in anime.

Eric

@ʞɹɐzǝɹ :|

Hakase

9:20 PM

but srsly who cares about that 50 rep or 250 even

Frosteeze

Movies SE don't have this problem because movies aren't really that obscure.

Toshinou Kyouko

I agree with @ʞɹɐzǝɹ

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

I'm fine with id req being at most 25% of our questions, but the frequency of them lately is very alarming to me

Toshinou Kyouko

they only really got established users invested

Eric

I think, as a community, our efforts need to be focused on currently-airing content if we want to bring in non-ID traffic.

Hakase

9:20 PM

it's about helping and bounties are a sign someone will appreciate the help, and in this case that doesn't matter

Toshinou Kyouko

we just need 100000 naruto questions

Hakase

oh yea

Eric

We had lots of questions about AoT when it was airing because we were asking questions about the manga in anticipation of the anime.

Hakase

and more death note what-if questions

Toshinou Kyouko

oh no

what if i wrote in the death note in braille

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

9:21 PM

I think one of our problem stems from focusing a bit too much on the new season material. Most ppl don't follow the new stuff and would rather binge when the season finihses airing

Eric

"What if I ate the Death Note?"

8

Hakase

:D

Toshinou Kyouko

what if i am illiterate and drew a picture instead

Eric

@ʞɹɐzǝɹ I don't see this as an issue.

Frosteeze

@ToshinouKyouko that's the other thing isn't it. If Naruto tags dominate this SE no one would want to get rid of the tag

Eric

9:22 PM

If we have questions and content about an airing anime, then when people binge it after, they can find answers or questions they can answer.

Toshinou Kyouko

I am okay with getting rid of the naruto tag

Frosteeze

lol...

Eric

Let's just get rid of all the tags. There.

2

Toshinou Kyouko

agreed

Eric

It's like eliminating racism by discriminating against everybody.

Hakase

9:22 PM

no tags − no probs

JNat

@ToshinouKyouko Awesome stuff, thanks

Frosteeze

all tags are now eric

4

Toshinou Kyouko

but seriously, naruto is a series tag, whereas id-request is a type of question

Eric

@Frosteeze As long as they don't ping me every time they get asked. -_-

... lol, who pinned my question?

Vogel612

@ToshinouKyouko so.. it's a meta-tag...

Toshinou Kyouko

9:23 PM

meta.anime.stackexchange.com/questions/2467/… for everyone else

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

there needs to be a equivilant exchange... if we remove something we have to compensate by adding something to equal or greater value

Hakase

@Eric you know you can see that in the post's history

Eric

@Hakase Oh cool. Never noticed that before.

Toshinou Kyouko

@Eric lol oops

Hakase

or in my bot's logs :D

Toshinou Kyouko

9:24 PM

oh well, it was a good mistake

Eric

@ʞɹɐzǝɹ As a fan of FMA, I approve this message.

Vogel612

@ToshinouKyouko the "Id-requests over time" is not really worth a lot when you don't compare it against question volume

Hakase

eeh I think 20 good questions on any tags would be equal in value to all the id requests we have

Taisho

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

@Vogel612 can be weighted on Q/D

Toshinou Kyouko

9:25 PM

@Vogel612 it has a percentage of questions as the vertical

rather than all current questions

that bit is clipped out i'll fix it

Vogel612

that could be more clear.. then again my brain can't keep up right now

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

@Vogel612 let it sit in a jar for a bit more

wait hmm

sounds like a plan.

plans are the best

9:27 PM

I'll ask vertical

uh

senshin

too much graphs

Hakase

uuh @Tosh why didn't you make ID and other questions over time combined graphs?

I thought those were the most interesting to visually compare

Toshinou Kyouko

@Hakase i didn't make the over-time graph

Hakase

but whyy

it's the best graph

Toshinou Kyouko

because I am a failure of a graph-master

Hakase

т_т

Matt

9:29 PM

graphician

Hakase

gimme the raw point values with timestamps and I'll make something of it

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

@Matt statistician

Toshinou Kyouko

I dont have the data

i just

copied

Vogel612

@ToshinouKyouko SEDE?

soo.. what do you think about edits like this one?

Toshinou Kyouko

I can't see the changes

oh now i do

Hakase

9:32 PM

anime.stackexchange.com/posts/23473/revisions changes

Toshinou Kyouko

@Vogel612 yeah, could be slightly improved still - but its a good edit

Vogel612

in comparison that feels like a lot of work ...

I mean I actually started guessing a little already

can we just get a close-reason "undecipherable"?

Toshinou Kyouko

Well I think generally anime watchers are younger and they also span a lot of nationalities

some XD also x-D talk like this x))))

Matt

@ʞɹɐzǝɹ That's the one

Toshinou Kyouko

so I'm not overly surprised by the amount of bad grammar we have

Hakase

9:39 PM

I can't find a simplest "questions with a specified tag over time cumulative" query D:

Matt

@ToshinouKyouko r n th lnguge f luv <3

Vogel612

but wall-of-text questions are waaay too heavy lately

Toshinou Kyouko

@ʞɹɐzǝɹ <3

Vogel612

@Hakase sec

Matt

@Vogel612 Yeah, it wouldn't kill to use some line bullet points

or even line breaks

Vogel612

9:40 PM

@Hakase what about something like: this query?

Hakase

ooooh yea

Vogel612

rolfl the former pro-tem on cr made it

Taisho

3

Hakase

data.stackexchange.com/anime/query/edit/339156#graph

wait what

ah all/10

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

I would that think we should take sometime to talk about what we don't like about id-reqs, this way we can try to pinpoint the most problematic parts and work our way from there

Toshinou Kyouko

9:43 PM

ID think?

Hakase

data.stackexchange.com/anime/query/339161/…

Eric

> I think ...

Toshinou Kyouko

yes, but

id requests

and id

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

can you be more specific?

Toshinou Kyouko

@Hakase interesting

@ʞɹɐzǝɹ never mind it was a bad joke

Hakase

9:45 PM

the main problem I have with ID requests is the users who post them

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

Hakase

I don't feel like it's worth helping them out most of the time

Toshinou Kyouko

lol

Matt

mm, it feels pointless to help someone you're never going to see again

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

but what in particular

Matt

9:47 PM

well, put in effort for

Hakase

I'm fine with those who try, but those who are lazy, or especially those who don't try at all need to be close-slapped on sight

Matt

^^

Hakase

@Matt yes

but we do have users who we're going to see again

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

Point 1: Sloppy and/or lazy question attempts demotivates prospective answers

Matt

It's unfortunate we can't separate the two

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

9:48 PM

most of these users are new and don't know better

Matt

How about adding a checkbox to the answer form where you indicate whether you're interested in staying around for more than 1 question?

Eric

... lol

Hakase

I don't think we should try to change the way the site works

Toshinou Kyouko

@Matt if users cant submit the post, they will click whatever you tell them

Alagaros

@Hakase yeah, that sounds like a bad idea

Eric

9:49 PM

@ʞɹɐzǝɹ Besides this, the only issue I have is that it essentially amounts to a meta-tag. There is no expert on ID requests.

Toshinou Kyouko

One solution is a rep-requirement

Hakase

we also cannot prohibit users from posting ID requests if they don't have enough rep that should be evidence they might stay around

@ToshinouKyouko ninja'd

how will we handle it

Toshinou Kyouko

100 rep means they are 'trusted' on the network

Hakase

they just won't use id tag at all then

Eric

Honestly, that wouldn't be a bad idea. Even if you made it 5 rep, they would have to get an upvote somewhere, or make two good edits.

Alagaros

9:50 PM

@ToshinouKyouko Well, they can just not add the id-req tag? don't get me wrong the idea is good.

Eric

@Hakase True.

Matt

@ToshinouKyouko 101, then that includes those from other sites that should know better

Toshinou Kyouko

@Alagaros that's a good point

Hakase

so there's no way to prevent users from posting anything at all

Toshinou Kyouko

we could close those questions I suppose though

Hakase

9:51 PM

unless we completely ban id requests

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

if you put a rep restriction on a tag, it's never a good thing. it either means the tag has to go and/or not enough effort or support is behind the tag

Eric

Completely ban questions.

5

Hakase

well, yes, that's what we do now − close them

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

if we don't make a more active effort to close bad id-reqs, we'll just see more of them

Hakase

@Eric that would be a great graduation feature for the site :p

@ʞɹɐzǝɹ sharpen the close-leash?

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

9:52 PM

what a lot of new users don't realize if how bad they are at explaining their problem

@Hakase more non-mod participation in closing and deleting bad id-reqs

Hakase

I got tired of posting "additional" questions in comments after a while pretty fast and I'm ignoring the tag completely now

Eric

@ʞɹɐzǝɹ Yeah. They think we can see the image they have in their mind.

Hakase

and we can't force any rule text on the posters

so we gotta close hard and often

Toshinou Kyouko

Hi guys I know this anime / cartoon from when I was a kid it had a big robot in it that fought a lot of other guys and there was many fight scenes and explosions. I hope you can help me find it It means so much 2 me lol xD

Eric

The problem I have with any kind of restriction on ID questions is they vary so vastly by case.

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

9:54 PM

expending effort in trying to explain why their question is bad is so tiring

Eric

If you give the right details, you can ID any anime in one sentence.

Toshinou Kyouko

same

Hakase

@ʞɹɐzǝɹ yes

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

even more so if you don't want to demotivate them from asking

Alagaros

@ToshinouKyouko 10/10

Hakase

9:54 PM

especially

Eric

@ToshinouKyouko Have you been creating socks and asking all the ID reqs?

plz dont lie

Toshinou Kyouko

@Eric single-line questions are still lame even if you can id it

@Eric no comment

Eric

@ToshinouKyouko Lame, maybe. Bad? Not necessarily.

> What's the anime where two alchemist brothers try to bring their mother back from the dead and fail?

Toshinou Kyouko

I think the same argument against one-line answers apply

Hakase

tv robot

Matt

9:55 PM

@Eric Heavy metalloid magician

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

worst comes to worst, we need to enforce a length and quality filter for id requests

Hakase

either absltcld or perished foliage

Eric

@ʞɹɐzǝɹ This. I feel like if we restricted it to X00 characters and required punctuation and capital letters, we'd get a LOT better ID requests.

Matt

How about a review before they get posted?

Eric

Even if they were crap, at least they'd be readable.

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

9:56 PM

I'd rather not it get that bad, since it's essentially conceding that we can't handle id requests

Alagaros

So no rep-requirement as @ToshinouKyouko suggested?

Matt

we have enough people at 1k+ rep now for that, surely?

Eric

@Alagaros Nah, Hakase is right, it's not enforceable.

Toshinou Kyouko

@Matt that's a good idea, but i think it requires a site change

Hakase

@Matt also not enforceable

Matt

9:57 PM

@ToshinouKyouko SE: "So what do you want to change about the site on graduation?" A&M: "We'd like to change our name to IDReq.SE, completely disable answers, and have bonus rep features for poorly worded and formatted posts. There will also be a limit of 1 question per user."

Hakase

ID.SE

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

@Hakase yahoo answers.se

5

Hakase

basically yes

Toshinou Kyouko

can we redirect anyone who uses the tag

Alagaros

migrates incomming

Hakase

9:58 PM

we cannot rely on users using the ID request tag

Matt

Welcome @AlessandroPucci!

Hakase

pls stop trying to find solutions based on that crazy assumption

Eric

Yeah.

I mean, I write a question before I tag it.

Toshinou Kyouko

The majority of them are though

Eric

And were I new user, I'd try to find some other tag if it didn't let me post after I wrote it.

(Probably [retag])

Toshinou Kyouko

9:59 PM

not if we use the tag to ban users

Hakase

that should help with visit rate :p

Taisho

Toshinou Kyouko

There is no solution to this problem

Hakase

"We're the best community on SE, but if you ask one bad identification question you and anyone you know are banned for life!"

the only winning move is not to play

Eric

Zugzwang.

Toshinou Kyouko

10:01 PM

yes, ban the people they know in case they try to use their accounts

personally I have the tags ignored now

Hakase

all of them?

Toshinou Kyouko

the id-request tag

-s

Matt

Maybe this is it: This is all a big trick set up by SE, and once we realise that, we graduate!

4

Hakase

we were so foolish to think we could solve the life-long problem of bad memory!

Toshinou Kyouko

Auto-close any questions with 'what' in it

Hakase

10:04 PM

hwat

wat

wut

u wot m8

and variants okay geez

Matt

@ToshinouKyouko That would work if the ID-ers could spell

Hakase

10:04 PM

:D

@Matt ... Irony.

:D

That was a test

:P

Did we pass?

Toshinou Kyouko

does that mean only @Eric graduates :(

Matt

10:05 PM

@Eric Well done, you're all not one time IDers

Eric

Oh, snap.

Hakase

@JNat must be in on it

Matt

We need to round up the mods and waterboard them for answers

Toshinou Kyouko

One thing I think is clear

not everyone is going to be happy whatever we do

Hakase

I don't think we were supposed to find a satisfactory solution

Toshinou Kyouko

10:08 PM

so maybe its worth having some anon polls

anyway, i need to go to bed

Hakase

bed needs u

Matt

If a question has no correct answer, is the answer "There is no correct answer" the correct answer?

Eric

My vote: Leave as-is, continue tight restrictions on asking quality, and provide full, complete answers to ID requests, unless you only have a guess as to the answer.

Hakase

@Matt yes

Matt

All this and more on the next episode of Maid Café

Toshinou Kyouko

10:09 PM

@Matt maybe explain why there is no correct answer

Eric

@Matt Yes, just elaborate why that is the case.

7

A: In FMA: Brotherhood, why do Father's sacrifices remain alive after the sacrifice?

Short answer: There is no canonical reason for this. Long answer: In English, a sacrifice is defined as: an animal, person, or object offered in an act of slaughtering to God or to a divine or supernatural figure However, a sacrifice in the Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood (and manga) canon...

Hakase

uuuugh but it requires effort!

close plaque explains it all well enough

Toshinou Kyouko

@Eric we can't really enforce the later half of that

Eric

> Hakase has changed name to Captain Obvious

Toshinou Kyouko

bed!

o/

Matt

10:10 PM

@Eric That's the best option for now

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

It's say more user participation in closing/detecting bad id reqs is needed before anything. If you think some of the policies are too vague, then let us know so we can make better, clearer ones.

Eric

@ToshinouKyouko Enforce, no. But as community members that are interested in seeing this site do well, we should know and be aware that giving full answers is better.

Matt

@ToshinouKyouko Good night!

Alagaros

I'm hopping off too, see ya all tomorrow!

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

o/

Hakase

10:11 PM

I think I'll go soon too

Vogel612

soo.. can we edit id-request questions to match their answers more?

often it's like "vague wall of text with some deeply hidden hints" - "short, but nice answer"

and it just .. stays like that

Hakase

I'd say edit answers to include on which exact vague hints they are based on

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

I think vague wall of text should be closed

Eric

If vague, yes. Because then there's no detail.

Hakase

also if the questions are bad, even if they have answers, should be closed coz they are still bad

Eric

10:14 PM

If just wall of text, I say we should stick to downvotes.

@Hakase ofc

Hakase

Qs should not be judges based on As

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

question should be judged by their ability to be answered

Hakase

so the quality threshold consists of…

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

if you can't explain why you need the question answer and give vague detail, why should you expect others to expend efforts to help you if you yourself can't do that

Vogel612

soo.. we're abusing cvs as super-downvotes?

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

10:17 PM

you will get as much as you put in

Hakase

not really, these id requests are that bad most of the time

Taisho