$ svn log -r HEAD
svn: E155007: '/Users/sean/l3' is not a working copy

@JosephWright :(

@JosephWright I don't understand why the maintainers of pTeX haven't yet added e-TeX.

@SeanAllred If you did svn co http://latex-project.org/svnroot/experimental/trunk/ you should get a dir called trunk inside where you are

@egreg platex reports \pdfstrcmp=\pdfstrcmp here

@JosephWright Gotcha, works now :)

@JosephWright Hey! And \dimexpr=\dimexpr

@egreg Yup

@JosephWright Note to self: never run svn log by itself.

@egreg Speaking of which, have you tried out the TeXures 'rescue'?

Easy to forget that nothing is local with svn

@SeanAllred :-)

@SeanAllred Not true: svn status and the like are

@JosephWright What's that?

@egreg blueskytex.com, see latest TUGboat

@egreg No e-TeX :-(

@JosephWright True

@JosephWright Didn't receive it. I'll look in my mailbox next Monday.

@egreg Ah

@egreg OK, see latest TUGboat when you get it

@JosephWright Ah yes, I read about that! I remember it going down. I'm glad the project is starting to show signs of life again.

@JosephWright It used to be good. But as it stands it is unmaintainable: it's monolithic and doesn't interface with a TeX distribution. It uses directly Type1 fonts and as far as I can see, no other font are available other than CM. It's indeed fast.

@egreg I can't work out how the format is stored, certainly: a quick symlink gets it to pick up TL, but leaves me with a 10 year old format :-(

@egreg Very fast, certainly; font installation rather odd

@JosephWright It's rather a nuisance that many still use it, because they're tied to really outdated versions of packages.

@JosephWright Reading the question about the units… a quick question: in your next siunitx would there be an explicit place to “add unit processors”? I mean like an API so people could develp their own unit processors (for instance to emulate the units from ConTeXt).

@egreg: mind if I ask you for an advice? :)

@Manuel Not really: that is the core of the package

@PauloCereda Here I am

@Manuel The ConTeXt scheme seems to me to be sub-optimal (but I would say that)

@Manuel To do the job siunitx does you have to process units into a known form. What I am planning is to document the internal structures.

@JosephWright Well, that's true :)

@Manuel Numbers are different: I am trying to find a way to make that more flexible (still needs a fast internal format)

@Manuel People think it's about numbers or tables, but that really wasn't the driver for me and it still isn't

@JosephWright May be add a “hook” so someone could call a “different” processor (since LaTeX3 is all about hooks :P).

@egreg Thank you! Barbara, Johannes and I were talking of a possible kerning issue of one of the TeX Gyre fonts, here's the start of the conversation: chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/21799213#21799213 Do you also think this is a font issue? I can report it to Jacko, if that's the case.

@Manuel Plan is to get the parts truly separate, document them with code-level interfaces and then let people do what they like. It's hard work as there is a lot of stuff that overlaps (e.g. conversion of prefixes into part of the number). I have a lot on work-wise so can't promise a delivery date.

@JosephWright It was just an idea, because I saw \SI{3}{\kilo\gram\meter\squared\per\second\squared} and thought “Hey, may be someone creates a different approach, and may be it would be good for them to have a place”; like siunitx being the package calling for the “in the house processor”, but leaving an open door for “external”.

@JosephWright Don't worry. I don't need it. It was just to give an idea (in case you hadn't thought before). And since LaTeX3 will be all about “hooks”…

@Manuel I'm not sure I see a need for a different processor for units: there's really not a lot you can do with the input syntax. As I say, for numbers things are different (e.g. it would be nice to have a fast processor that only deals with real numbers, no uncertainties, etc.)

@Manuel More about defined documented interfaces

@Manuel Hooks suggests people are hacking in

@JosephWright That's better hehehe

@PauloCereda Here's an example

\documentclass{article}
\usepackage[T1]{fontenc}
\usepackage[utf8]{inputenc}
\usepackage{tgadventor}

\begin{document}
\sffamily\bfseries\huge

celebrações
\end{document}

@PauloCereda I see no strange kerning

@egreg I must confess my eye is untrained. :(

@PauloCereda It's definitely different from the image you showed.

@egreg It's the opening of the c that gets me, but more than likely because I've been staring at it for too long :)

In l3doc, is there any other environment I should use other than {macrocode} to indicate a demo of use?

@egreg That's why I can't track what's going on. :(

@SeanAllred No, we just use verbatim

@PauloCereda Can you show a minimal example?

@egreg I will try, hold on. Now it's a matter of principle. :P

@JosephWright But the numbers are so pretty :3

@egreg: found it, found it, found it!

\documentclass{article}
\usepackage[T1]{fontenc}
\usepackage[utf8]{inputenc}
\usepackage{tgadventor}

\begin{document}

\begin{center}
\sffamily\bfseries\Huge Cantos para missas e celebrações

celebrações
\end{center}

\end{document}

Tell me I am not crazy, please. :)

@PauloCereda ^^^^^^

@PauloCereda I get the same thing @egreg did... you see differently on your system?

@PauloCereda I even added \usepackage[brazil]{babel} just to be sure.

I am getting crazy!

@PauloCereda we're not opposing this your statement :D

@yo' oy <3

@PauloCereda :)

@PauloCereda And the same result appears when fontspec is used with XeLaTeX or LuaLaTeX. Can you show the image of yours?

@egreg Sure, hold on!

@PauloCereda Maybe we could open a new room for this

@egreg Ah no worries, it's fixed for me with some \kern adjustments. :)

@egreg only if you want to keep track of the discussion. Other than that, this room is not too busy so whatever :)

@egreg: oh my, found the culprit!

Shame on me.

@PauloCereda \/?

@egreg Worse. It's... my... previewer. :(

Oh my, sorry everybody.

What a shame.

@PauloCereda I told you to avoid Fedora. :P

@egreg Blame TeXworks. :)

@PauloCereda don't worry. Solving non-existent issues is peoples' domain since the time of Don Quichotte :)

Preview works like a charm. :)

Still, Fedora 22 is on the horizon already. :)

@PauloCereda sorry but my TeXworks shows on your example the correct thing

@yo' ooh I took a photo of him, hold on.

@yo': ^^ <3

@PauloCereda which one is him?

@yo' The one in the left, with Sancho Panza in the right, and Cervantes above. :)

@PauloCereda The building behind Cervantes looks much Soviet style.

@PauloCereda ah yeah, thanks. Btw, don't you know why the chat keeps scrolling two screen below the last message all the time?

@egreg :)

@yo' At this point, I'd blame TeXworks too. :)

@PauloCereda lol

What is @@ called when working in DocTeX? StackExchange's search function doesn't like the string

Seems google is also prejudiced

Ah, it seems it was a feature introduced by l3docstrip. Thus, I needed to \input l3docstrip and not just \input docstrip. Silly me :)

it has been a long day for me on the journey, so I better go to bed. Good night, everybody!

@JosephWright just got in, do what?

@DavidCarlisle @SeanAllred was pointing out that GitHub can't match up commits to the SVN mirror to people as the 'emails' that get recorded by git-svn are not real ones. I've added what it has down for me to my GitHub account so it does now 'match up'.

@DavidCarlisle They are all of the form <user>@de43f980-851b-0410-b2f7-c40aca1f87e0, I think

@JosephWright don't think I've committed anything recently have I? where would I look?

@DavidCarlisle Not for some time, it seems :-) Bruno/Frank/Will more likely to show up

@DavidCarlisle Actually

r5590 | carlisle | 2015-04-26 13:59:54 +0100 (Sun, 26 Apr 2015) | 1 line

@DavidCarlisle You are on github.com/latex3/svn-mirror/commits/master?page=1

@DavidCarlisle If you go to github.com/latex3/svn-mirror/commit/… you'll find it doesn't 'know who you are': there's a question mark which has a hover text about your 'email' as generated by git-svn

@JosephWright how do I get that text out of the hover:-)

@DavidCarlisle Ah, now that I don't know: I used the fact @SeanAllred had got it from the git log and posted it here :-) Aren't you down as carlisle@de43f980-851b-0410-b2f7-c40aca1f87e0?

@JosephWright looks like it, registered.

@DavidCarlisle Indeed, you get matched up now :-)

@JosephWright I need to study Hans' lua suggestions....

@DavidCarlisle Interesting: I think that's the only one down for you since we moved to the current SVN :-) (GitHub doesn't pick up your older ones, I think as they are down with a different user name)

@JosephWright yes I've not really done any l3 coding for a while....

@DavidCarlisle Checking the master (SVN) log now :-)

palladium:trunk joseph$ svn log  | grep carlisle
r5590 | carlisle | 2015-04-26 13:59:54 +0100 (Sun, 26 Apr 2015) | 1 line
r4250 | carlisle | 2012-10-14 16:03:36 +0100 (Sun, 14 Oct 2012) | 1 line

That's it!

@percusse: My last words on this: As I wrote in a comment: If I were a badge/rep hunter I would answer other questions etc. I did not stop reviewing like some others have done, when they got their badges. You are continously insulting me, basically from my start here, opposing basically any proposition on Meta. And I realize, that I was too polite. Instead of continously criticizing the review system you should take part in it, do the reviews before non-worthy idiots like me can do it ;-)

@ChristianHupfer @percusse would prefer the review system be disabled

@JosephWright Yes, I know. It does justify his insults by no means anyway. I am not the only close-voter and I see no indication that he attacked the other ones (the prime suspects ;-))

@JosephWright yes log seems to be from 97, which is when I moved here, not done a lot since then, mostly some OR stuff but that was mostly bouncing ideas with Frank, probably didn't check much in:-)

@DavidCarlisle :-)

@DavidCarlisle Found the other one it's matched up: github.com/latex3/svn-mirror/commit/…

@ChristianHupfer The 'usual suspects' don't really engage in any discussion

@DavidCarlisle And you wonder why I keep complaining about xor

@JosephWright have you? I didn't notice..

@JosephWright True, but I am not percusse's lightning rod

@JosephWright which IMHO means they should get review-banned. There are issues with their behaviour and they do not address these issues.

@yo' We have review banned people: what we need to do that is clear evidence of wrong (not just debatable) reviews

@JosephWright ah I wasn't aware of the fact that this was actually happening. That's somehow good to hear.

@JosephWright I fully agree with that. If I had done something wrong, it's justified to ban me, but not for closing (at that time) off-topic question

now, truly good night.

@yo' Night

@yo': Good night

@ChristianHupfer Like I say, a ban really has to be based on something being wrong, and not just one review but several. For example, if someone reviews out-and-out spam as OK and the mods get told, we'll ban people.

Important note: review bans can only be made for limited time

@JosephWright Just wanted to add that ... I've heard of it

@ChristianHupfer What is the insult ?

@ChristianHupfer The only permanent bans we can do are out-and-out kicking people off the site

@percusse: Accusing me to be a rep/badge hunter

@ChristianHupfer Where did I mention that?

@percusse You basically implied that on that Meta question about the delete vote, where I was one of the delete voters

I mentioned your name LariFari, Johannes and a few others for reviewing carelessly and opposed to the newcomers.

That's putting words in my mouth. Read carefully

You are the voter of two meta questions lately. Instead of thinking OK maybe I was voting too fast, you go against me because I'm taking the side of the new users.

I will keep doing that because we have rep points and bla bla but new users can't even comment. So one of us needs to play the bad cop.

@percusse New users can comment on their own questions

@ChristianHupfer Apparently you don't care if you close a question wrongly but you go full throttle just because somebody disappointed you. That shows the imbalance of your reaction to your cases and others' cases.

And I don't enjoy that. Responsibility is on all of us.

Not only for our own leisure.

@percusse: Nope, I am one of the voters that caused Meta questions. I am standing there and have to justify it, while others leave no comment

@JosephWright Yes but it does nothing. See how many questions repoened.

@percusse: It's not about downvoting! My answer was hijacked and then downvoted. By a newbie ;-)

@ChristianHupfer It is not about downvoting but I use it as an indication how frustrating it can be when it is done to you. But you fail to see that your leisurely voting scheme might do the same to others.

That should give some perspective.

And again I didn't use any insults. I frequently use stupid buttons idiotic review system etc. because they are. But you won't find stupid users or something along those lines.

TL'15 final build e-mail has arrived :-)

@percusse: Keep your habit of playing the bad cop. A closed question is not as bad as downvote, regardless who it is.

@ChristianHupfer That's the close voter talking. Ask them too.

Open a question for the things I have yellow dot for and I'll close it as a duplicate then don't tell me you won't rip me a new one.

@percusse: Have you ever checked my close review history? About 30% of it are Leave Open.

@ChristianHupfer That's great. Let's make it 90%.

@percusse: I've voted for close of my own question, so don't tell me about disappointment ;-)

I have dream... where people just click Skip buttons and only review the questions that they encounter. Not the review system feeds them. That was what we were doing and it was great because people only dealt with questions that they are interested in .

@percusse: And a lot of vtc for duplicates... Your perception is somehow distorted, sorry

@ChristianHupfer Not quite. I provided I don't know how many examples and I received not a single counter argument. If you have any be my guest Meta question is still there.

Let me show how this got from bad to worse: We have been trying to deal with this since last year

And I have many answers that you can look from my meta profile

So I'm not dreaming a conspiracy that you are here to destroy TeX.SX

@percusse: Yes, that was my plan... After that it will be renamed Word.SX and we all write in Comic Sans

This has been progressively a bigger problem. Lately, it got out in the open because I mentioned specifically why and who might be contributing and I kept the discussion on and on

actually a little too long. But notice that there is always one side of the discussion.

The actual reviewers never make any case for their, imho, erratic behavior. Always mentioning well according to SO this is how it's done bla bla

So I'm not exactly trolling but decided to annoy everyone with this nonsense to draw more attention to the matter.

And maybe this time I managed.

@percusse As I've said in a comment on @PauloCereda's meta post, we are not the only site who have had some concerns about the review system but there was no sign of any movement from the Powers

@PauloCereda is a way more nicer person so he took the normal and the sane approach with his recent question. However our intentions look the same though he might not agree with me about my style or whatever.

@JosephWright That doesn't imply that we have to keep using it just because the buttons are there.

You know, DocTeX isn't so bad. :)

@SeanAllred DocTeX?

@JosephWright dtx – I thought that was the expansion

@percusse No, but it also means that the facility is there and supported

@JosephWright vvv

@SeanAllred Just dtx :-) 'Documented (La)TeX Source'

@JosephWright Okie dokie :)

Anyway, how do I get this bad boy on CTAN? :)

@SeanAllred ctan.org/upload

@SeanAllred You've missed the TL'15 DVD deadline

@JosephWright True but same with downvoting. We can keep our appetite for that.

@JosephWright :( It's not likely to be of much general use anyway – it's actually more of a support package for a very basic debugger I'm writing

@percusse: It looks like you waited for the right time to creep out of your hide and attack the first one you get grip of... this time me, because I was the only one standing there to leave a comment. Did you attack the other close voters? Nope... highly recognized users they are, with a high standing.

@JosephWright Is there any user system to CTAN or are uploads effectively anonymous (save information revealed in the readme, etc.)?

@ChristianHupfer Ask @Papiro, I'm sure he loves me.

@SeanAllred CTAN track users by e-mail address, which you provide when uploading but they don't publish

@percusse I don't understand why you keep advocating for this (not using the review system). If we ('we' being the people who actually do reviews; I'm not entirely sure if I've made the naughty list yet or not) stop using the review system, the only people left using it will be the robo-reviewers. Surely that cannot be better than the current situation.

and @cfr and others.

@SeanAllred E-mail is primary key for the CTAN database

@JosephWright Gotcha, thanks :)

@SeanAllred the email address you give on the form essentially identifies you (I got told off for not using the same address when updating packages after 15 years:-)

@DavidCarlisle Like I said, seems to be the primary key

@JosephWright Think it's safe to give my gmail? I have the tex@ one to mitigate spam, etc., but I likely won't have it forever

@percusse: Regardless who it is, I am not the address of your thunderbolts. I hope I made that clear.

@ChristianHupfer Then we know who is obsessed with the review system and it would be much easier to point the finger.

@SeanAllred You can give them what you like: as I said, they don't publish this

@JosephWright Thanks :)

@ChristianHupfer Oh yes you are sir. With your casual question closing and whatnot.

@SeanAllred The only reason it's good to be valid is they might try to get hold of you if there is a request from a user. For example, if we can't find a package author we ask CTAN to try to make contact: they are the most likely to have a working e-mail address

@PaulGessler: I don't think that you are a robo-reviewer.

@percusse: Get a life ;-)

Besides, why do you review anyway? I don't (until recently to counter-balance) and nothing happens to me. I don't get penalties. It is exactly the same site.

@ChristianHupfer I did. It is nice.

Oh @PaulGessler One of those comments starting then we know was meant for you. Sorry.

@PaulGessler And the next argument is 5 people are too few to decide anything about a question. If I see a question on RevTeX I cannot click any buttons because I don't know anything about it. But lo and behold the usual suspects are apparently experts of any given topic and can judge whether it is clear or not.

@percusse sorry, which comment?

Let me put it clear out in the open so that people don't get confused.

If it was to my liking I can easily close 200 TikZ questions

But it is not me to decide.

I hate those questions but they are there, it is not my place to cherry pick the good ones.

@PaulGessler One that I sent to @ChristianHupfer mistakenly.

@percusse oh, the chat message, got it. Sorry. Sure, we could find the robots faster that way, but it wouldn't benefit the site in the meantime. Because once anything gets into the queue, the robots take over and it will get closed. Real reviewers can and do slow it down and eventually remove it from the queue with enough "Leave Open" votes.

@PaulGessler I don't see how it helped over time. Instead we got more clickers.

There he is. My favorite reviewer

Always on time.

Yes @percusse. I love you ;) And I love @werner too. I think that @ChistianHupfer loves you too :-)

@percusse bye... be a good boy, my friend.

@Papiro Everybody wants a piece of this suga

@ChristianHupfer See how constructive our review board?

@percusse: Constructive? No... but I see no constructive approaches by you too, instead of complaining all the time and doing a counter vote for the balance of forces in the reviewing universe.

@ChristianHupfer And what brilliant plan do you have in mind instead of trying to draw attention to this after almost 1.5 years?

Did you read the questions I've linked above?

If you don't like my style fine read Paolo's question on meta. That's as constructive as it gets. Would you think it would change anything?

@ChristianHupfer @percusse Please be nice :( I think we all want the same thing. We're all on the same team.

@percusse: I've read that and commented there already. It will not change much, I fear. And anything what you're saying about this sounds as being filled with bitterness. And aggression, somehow. That will change far less, than @PauloCereda 's post

@SeanAllred What part of this is unnice (if that's a proper english word)?

@ChristianHupfer Yes and that is your perception about my aggression or any bad connotation.

@percusse no, but unkind is :) There is a lot of sarcasm and finger-pointing going on in here – something I'm not used to seeing on TeX.SX. It's pretty disturbing, to be honest.

On both sides, mind.

  /Users/sean/github/vermiculus/tex-menu/termmenu:
  total used in directory 4 available 73321837
  drwxr-xr-x  6 sean staff  204 May 23 17:47 .
  drwxr-xr-x 44 sean staff 1496 May 23 17:47 ..
  -rw-r--r--  1 sean staff 1700 May 23 17:47 README
  drwxr-xr-x  3 sean staff  102 May 23 17:47 doc
  drwxr-xr-x  3 sean staff  102 May 23 17:47 source
  drwxr-xr-x  3 sean staff  102 May 23 17:47 tex

  /Users/sean/github/vermiculus/tex-menu/termmenu/doc:
  total used in directory 416 available 73321837

@SeanAllred: Yes, you are right. It's disturbing. It's troubling my mind for two days now.

@SeanAllred and the rest is rainbows and butterflies right? As long as you are not a part of the discussion.

Is the above an appropriate TDS structure for CTAN upload?

@percusse Of course not :( but we don't have to bite at each other. Biting will leave scars – something would attest to (without taking a stance on that one).

@SeanAllred Is termmenu.tex a derived file?

@JosephWright Yes

@SeanAllred Doesn't go to CTAN then

@SeanAllred Your structure looks more like a TDS-style zip than a CTAN upload

@SeanAllred I'm not biting anyone. It is not my problem if people take it personally while they are clicking buttons without thinking.

@SeanAllred Did you see the advice on ctan.org/upload? Normally for a small package you want a 'flat' directory containing the source file(s), PDF and README

@percusse @ChristianHupfer You're both incredibly intelligent people and are both valuable to this site. I'd hate to see either of you get so frustrated with one another as to 'take a break', as it were.

@JosephWright I did, I read the thingy on the right.

@SeanAllred This niceness of TeX.SX doesn't come from just because we think we are. It comes from taking things slow and dealing with users carefully. That's how the reputation grew out of nothing. And I'm a big fan of that.

@percusse: Yes, you're right. That's my perception, grown after the past one and half years being actively involved on TeX.SX.

But this system is hurting that but as long as chat residents are entertained nobody seems to care what happens to others because we passed the psycological threshold.

@percusse Naturally, and I think @ChristianHupfer would agree that reviews shouldn't be taken lightly. The converse is absurd.

@SeanAllred And what do we do about it? We keep clicking those buttons.

@percusse I think we've raised a lot of attention to this issue as a community. Give us time for that attention to impact the stats.

The behavior isn't going to change overnight, but I can already see it changing.

More re-open votes are being cast, for one.

@SeanAllred: Yes. Perhaps I have voted too fast for some of the questions, but not in whole bunch of it. But I am no robo-reviewer, neither @PaulGessler, @AndrewSwann etc. are.

@SeanAllred That's why I'm discussing this matter with at least 10 people simultaneously.

I would move to avoid using the term 'robo-reviewer'. Even if nobody here is guilty of such, it's too easy to feel incriminated online. You start second-guessing every decision you make and become generally untrusting of the community.

@JosephWright So just basically touch termmenu/{README,termmenu.dtx,termmenu.pdf}?

With termmenu in a zip archive of the same name?

@SeanAllred Yes, although usually there will be an .ins file too

@SeanAllred Yes

@JosephWright Ah yes, forgot about that :) and yikes, that was the first example on CTAN's upload page D: Sorry for the noise

@SeanAllred I don't know where your unfounded trust come from but I didn't start complaining about this last week.

I have to start this issue every time as if this is a new thing. I provided links and answers and meta discussions and examples of false reviews.

What do I need to do ? Screenshots of reviews every hour? Until you get convinced?

Maybe passive approach is the first thing that got us here, don't you think

Actually if my girlfriend keeps watching that vampire series on TV I might have time to do that.

@percusse Slow down, yourself :) I still trust the community as much as I ever have.

@percusse And I want to be clear that I didn't read the whole log up unto the point where I entered this conversation – I just felt things were getting a little out-of-hand. If you say this has been brought up before, I believe you – but I think this time will be different just by virtue of this relatively widespread attention.

@A.Ellett I have written to Alain about that issue with the negative angle. I can't understand what is going on.

Hi all

@SeanAllred You don't know how awful it is. Vampires, werevolwes, it's like 90210 Beverly hills with inhuman teenagers all over again... I'm filled with rage ;)

@percusse Vampire Diaries?

tumbleweed

termmenu has been uploaded to CTAN – I can finally rest for the day :) Come to think of it, eating might be a better idea. I haven't done that yet today and it's 6:30pm here. O.O

Kaveh is to be crowned king of the world TUG president

tug.org/election/2015/candidates.html

@DavidCarlisle Yep, I just got it, too :)

As of the ballot closing date (May 11), 145 paper votes
and 291 electronic valid ballots were received.
Of the 291 electronic votes, 9 were repeats of the same vote.
One member voted (differently) by paper after voting
electronically, so the electronic vote was excluded
from the result.

I really wonder who that poor person was…

@DavidCarlisle I'm not too surprised by the result, either

@barbarabeeton I'm happy to see one of the "old guard" staying in a position of leadership and guidance :)

Happy moment :)