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9:00 PM
@Chris'ssis We might publish something together some day, LOL
 
ahhh ok sorry $\sum_{i=1}^n x_i$
@TedShifrin
 
@WillHunting lol, but you hate integrals, series and limits. :-)
 
@Chris'ssis That is true, LOL.
 
Huy
Time for bed. Good night everyone.
 
still, @Vrouvrou: Il faut apprendre faire ça toi-même
 
9:01 PM
@Huy Night.
 
night, @Huy
 
it's time for bed here too, but i'm not gonna say goodnight :p
 
@TedShifrin oui mais c'est bon la c'est juste !
 
@BalarkaSen: I have a homomorphism $f: \pi_1(\Sigma_g) \to F_h$, the free group on $h$ letters. I have $f^{-1}([F_h, F_h]) \subset [\pi_1, \pi_1]$. Can you prove that this implies $f$ is injective? I think this is probably true, and I can't write down any counterexamples.
$g<h$
 
@MikeMiller You think Lang's books are not good? Why?
@Huy and @BalarkaSen you will see me in your dreams.
 
9:08 PM
@Mike: I can't even do the case $g=1$.
 
it does seem nontrivial
 
@BalarkaSen I thought you went to bed.
 
i didn't say goodnight
 
@TedShifrin: In that case, $f^{-1}[F_h, F_h] = 0$. In particular, $f^{-1}(0) = 0$.
 
9:09 PM
gah, right
 
Oh.
 
The above equivalently says: I've got a map $\pi_1 \to F_h$ that's injective on the abelianization. Is it injective?
This is an alternate approach to a problem I've had in the back of my head since last week.
 
Are you using special facts about $\pi_1$, or are you thinking this is true for any finitely-presented group?
 
i am looking for maps $\Sigma_g$ onto boquet that's injective on homology but not on $\pi_1$
 
That's where this comes from, @Balarka. I don't think there is one.
@TedShifrin: It shouldn't be possible by geometric heuristics I have. It's almost a correct argument from topology, but it seems impossible to get it to actually work, so I gave up on that approach. I have no idea whether this should be true for all finitely generated groups of rank $g<h$.
I guess it probably "should", because $\pi_1(\Sigma_g)$ is "close" to the free group $F_g$ itself, and everything else is actually "closer" to the abelianization. (It's only got one relator.)
 
9:15 PM
@DanielFischer did you see my question about $f(a+re^{it})\in \BBb{R}$?
 
So maybe a helpful approach is to investigate $F_g \to F_h$ first, and find out if it's true there.
 
@Gato No.
 
i guess one could use some covering space theory.
 
hi @DanielF :)
 
Hi @TedS
And Hi @MikeMiller
And @BalarkaSen
 
9:17 PM
@Balarka: Covering spaces correspond to injective maps on fundamental groups... we're essentially trying to reduce to covering space theory
Hi @DanielF
 
@DanielFischer hi
 
Free groups can be so pathological, @Mike.
 
Hello @DanielFischer you missed me, but don't worry.
 
@DanielF: I miss seeing you and @Pedro.
 
Oh, hi @Jasper
 
9:18 PM
@TedShifrin: Consider the following statement. For any genus $g$, there is, up to equivalence, precisely one epimorphism $\pi_1(\Sigma_g) \to F_g \times F_g$ (equivalence is just a commutative diagram of epis where the vertical maps are isomorphisms)
This was only proved in 2003.
2006, if you count the myriad details that had to be filled into the original argument...
 
@Gato What was your question? I'm too lazy to go looking for it.
 
Even one epi is sort of surprising on the basis on rank, @Mike, but that's why I say free groups are pathological. OOPS. That was back asswards.
Salut @Gato
 
This was proved, of course, using Hamilton's idea of Ricci flow with surgery. :)
 
whoa
 
Holy ****.
yes, of course
 
9:21 PM
you must be kidding me
 
See, @Balarka, even you will need to care about differential geometry.
 
if i didn't cared about differential geometry/topology, i wouldn't have wanted to study mult. calc. at all, @Ted
 
Well, you'll see that there are a lot of beautiful things in multivariable calc, especially if you do it "right."
 
i am sure i will. :)
what you asked seems like a good question, @Mike.
i still say one should lift stuff. you can get higher maps outta lifting lower maps. for example, a map $\Sigma_3 \to \vee_4 S^1$ can be obtained from lifting the covering map $\Sigma_3 \to \Sigma_1$ composed with some map $\Sigma_1 \to \vee_2 S^1$ to the cover $\vee_4 S^1$.
i don't know what can be accomplished by this, but one should get to know about the $\Sigma_g \to \vee_h S^1$ maps before seeing what they does to homology and \pi_1
i will think about it
 
There's no covering map of a higher genus surface to $\Sigma_1$, @Balarka.
But I see-ish what you're looking for. It's not clear you can do such a lifting, but it's an interesting idea.
Maybe prove it for $\Sigma_2$ and "induct" via covering maps
 
9:30 PM
right.
@MikeMiller huh? take a 3-torus and do D_2-symmetry. quotient. you get $\Sigma_1$.
 
@BalarkaSen: No you don't. Before arguing, do a sanity check, and look at Euler characteristics.
Or at whether $\pi_1(\Sigma_g)$ injects into $\pi_1(T^2)$...
 
huh, i guess i am sleepy.
i am thinking of $\Sigma_3 \to \Sigma_2$
 
Right.
 
@Balarka: It's something like 3:30 AM. Go to sleep.
 
close enough. 3:04. g'night, i guess.
will think about the problem. it's a cute one.
 
9:34 PM
I don't get these half-hour time shifts.
Night, kiddo.
 
Thanks for the idea, @Balarka. I'm going to try fiddling with it when I get time.
 
I just ate a fish burger.
 
at what hour, @Jasper?
 
It's 544 AM.
 
Strange hour for a fish burger :P
 
9:44 PM
I don't sleep or eat regularly.
 
You're never going to be completely regular or normal ... I know that.
Maybe you'll be Hausdorff :D
 
I understand that joke, don't worry.
 
It was bad. Worthy of @Balarka.
 
But I do fear I will never be completely well.
 
Aspire to partially well. That's about where most of us are.
 
9:46 PM
I want to function optimally, and I have to be completely well, maybe in a partial sense, if that makes any sense.
 
Yeah.
 
Anyway, right now, I have some idea of how to achieve that.
But I will need to do some things to get there, and these require plenty of courage.
Courage because I will need to do some very embarrassing things.
And these few days I have been trying to motivate myself to be able to do them.
I know all this sounds very vague, but I cannot go into the details here.
 
Don't think of them as embarrassing.
 
Doing these things also require the understanding of other people, because others will be involved.
I hope I can communicate well to them so that they understand and help me do what I have to do.
There are a number of things to do on my list, and I will do them one by one until it is all finished.
I currently plan to do them all in May.
If I am too unstable in May, then in June.
But I really hope I succeed this time and latest by the end of June.
Then I can move on and do some other things.
I think that's all I wanna say @TedShifrin for now.
 
ok, @Jasper.
 
9:54 PM
And hello @DiscipleofBarney sorry to bore you with my long speeches again.
 
oh fine ... you apologize to @Discipline but not to us? :D
 
Well, he was thinking of ignoring me. =)
@TedShifrin And it's Disciple, not Discipline. =)
 
thanks for the editing, as usual, @Jasper :P
 
@WillHunting Sure you are
 
@DiscipleofBarney Barney has an evil look until I zoom into the picture.
Size does matter after all. =)
@TedShifrin How important are Banach and Hilbert manifolds? As you know, Lang does them in his differential geometry book.
 
10:01 PM
I've never had to worry about them in my research life.
 
@TedShifrin Also, how important is calculus in Banach spaces? As you know, Lang does them in his real and functional analysis book.
@TedShifrin Hmm, that is good enough for me to know.
 
That is important. That's a good enough to prove all sorts of differential equations theorems.
 
Lang is about the only guy that does them systematically in the English literature.
@TedShifrin It's not enough to restrict to Euclidean spaces?
 
When one does gauge theory stuff, Banach manifolds show up.
No, because you have to work in function spaces and set up the appropriate integral operator.
 
@TedShifrin: When doing gauge theory, before passing to the moduli space, one first looks at a suitable $H^p$ completion of the solution space to your equations, and gets a (usually Hilbert) manifold. You need to know some analysis of Hilbert manifolds for this situation.
 
10:03 PM
@Mike: We agree.
 
The goal is, of course, to think about these as little as possible. :)
 
LOL
 
I think @MikeMiller is very knowledgeable. I won't be surprised if he wins the Fields medal.
 
Don't jinx him, @Jasper.
Lang falls in the standard trap of trying to do math from the general to the specific. I prefer to teach the opposite way.
But I'm 4 days from my end. :P
 
I am too old for the Fields medal, so I will aim for the Abel prize instead.
@TedShifrin That sounds ominous.
 
10:07 PM
Yes, I meant it so.
 
I prefer to think of my life as not having begun yet.
That's a comforting way of looking at things.
 
Fair enough. I'm out of here. Dinnertime.
 
Get a fish burger.
I am edified by this conversation on Banach and Hilbert thingies.
 
hey guys
I'm a web dev. I'm considering taking linear algebra. How might it be useful to me?
I'm honestly not sure what the subject matter is
Hey @Ted :)
dang, just missed him
 
@ZachSaucier You might be better asking a web developer.
 
10:21 PM
web devs don't go to school :P hahaha
 
I have no idea what a web developer needs.
However, I do know linear algebra, which is about the most trivial undergrad math there is.
 
The reason why I was thinking about taking it is because I can see myself making simulations of sorts
 
And I have no idea what math that requires.
 
not sure what of, but projects involving 3D using WebGL (pretty much OpenGL if you've heard of it) as well some smaller things like games using physics engines
I've already taken through calc 3 and physics through electricity and magnetism
am curious if linear algebra would be helpful at all
 
Well, you said web developers don't go to school. You have answered yourself. =)
 
10:25 PM
haha
but I'm here, might as well learn :P
teaching myself other web things is a given
 
All I feel is that LA is very fundamental, would be good to take.
 
kk
I'll see what Ted has to say if he gets back (he teaches at my school)
 
You can read on Wikipedia what it is. That's always the first place to go to for an intro.
 
Ya, I read up on it some
 
@robjohn I managed to do those because I did research in that specific area (in general, I invest much time in research), so I started with an advantage. Otherwise it could have been more difficult ...
 
10:27 PM
@ZachSaucier Oh I didn't know you go there.
 
I've yet to see him on campus (though I haven't sought him out)
 
@ZachSaucier He even has written a book on LA.
 
I met Kaj though, haha
 
@Chris'ssis Do you know how to do the one you found on main?
 
@robjohn Yes. I basically use an almost similar technique to the one I used to the previous ones.
 
10:30 PM
@ZachSaucier He looks a little like Matt Damon sometimes.
 
haha, not much in person :P
too tall
I see what you mean though
 
Of course, I am the real Matt Damon, since I am Will Hunting.
 
true
 
Ted has published 3 math books.
 
impressive
well, I'm off to a soccer tourney finals. My team is playing! Hopefully we play well, haha
thanks for talking, @Will
 
10:32 PM
@ZachSaucier OK, I hope you know I am J.
 
change your name again? xD
 
A few times.
W is one of my more common ones.
 
confusing
 
Also confusing is how the blue turned green.
But usually it is a monochromatic square.
When I was Jacob Black, I made it black.
 
11:03 PM
hello can I ask math questions?
 
@Marc-AntoineJacob Just ask; don't ask to ask.
 
You can only ask math questions in the math chat
 
yes
ok so I go?
I have a question on integral
I want to calculate the integral of sqrt(x^2+3x+1)
but it seems impossible
Microsoft mathematics does not calculate de answer
so what I have to do
??
 
@DiscipleofBarney Hey it is <me> on another account(at uni in a common area)
Can you help me understand what they are doing after they show $A$ is diagonal here: http://www.math.toronto.edu/vtk/247Winter2012/247practicefinalsol.pdf

1.c.
Everything prior makes perfect sense
 
11:19 PM
What specifically is not making perfect sense?
 
But:

1. We let each $\lambda$ be unique to all others.
2. We now take $a_{11}\ne a_{22}$ and use a permutation matrix, that would need not be diagonal(which is the premise I believe)
And then we deduce that $a_{11}=a_{22}$ and so on
and then we say that all of the $\lambda$'s are the same
 
What they do is take a matrix $A$, that is diagonal, but has different entries along the diagonal, then they exibit matrix $B$ which it does not commute with, since $C= B A B^{-1}$ is not equal to $A$.
 
I want to calculate the integral of sqrt(x^2+3x+1)


but it seems impossible
 
From that we get that anything in the center must be a multiple of the identity (which is easy to prove those are in the center)
@Marc-AntoineJacob You don't have to post twice, you would have better luck posting a well thought out question on the main site since a lot more eyes will be on the question
 
but who want to help me
i just want to know if its possible
 
11:25 PM
It is possible
 
what do you will do?
 
It'll be long though, and have logs and crap
 
its a composed function
I get out my constant out of the integral
but the constant I get out is 1/x+3/2
I can't get out an X
 
So all permutation matrices are invertible I imagine, so we are taking some $P\in GL(n,\Bbb R)$ and seeing if it commutes against our favourite $A$
 
I know
but it has an x squared in the parenthese
x^2
 
11:28 PM
@Algebra Taking a permuation matrix and see if it commutes with an arbitrary $A$ that is diagonal but does not have all its diagonal entries equal
 
But to be in the center requires AB=BA for all B\in GL(n,R)
But they have CB=BA
and deduce that C doesn't equal A
That doesn't prove anything though from what I can see
 
They have $C = B A B^{-1}$ but they also have it does not equal $A$, so $A$ is not in the center
 
Oh I see
Oh I see!
Thanks very much @Disc
 
And it is easy to prove $ \lambda I$ is in the center, so they characterize all things in the centere essentially by elimination, first by showing anything that is in the center is diagonal, then anything that is not a scalar multiple of $I$ is not in the center because of that permuation argument.
@Algebra No problem
 
user146722
$${{\left(4\,x+6\right)\,\sqrt{x^2+3\,x+1}-5\,\log \left(2\,\sqrt{x^2
+3\,x+1}+2\,x+3\right)}\over{8}}$$
 
11:45 PM
@DiscipleofBarney I wasn't thinking about the permutation matrix correctly before
@DiscipleofBarney But when I realised that left permute swaps rows and right permute swaps columns it all fit together
 

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