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5:00 AM
Oh yeah, I keep missing that...
 
@Srivatsan That's someone else! I was asked to prove w'out structure theorem by my mentor at the institute, Sury!
 
@Srivatsan Actually I changed my gravatar. It's now the background pattern.
Hi everyone.
 
@KannappanSampath Yes, the IMSc suggested that it wasn't the same person.
 
lol
 
@JonasMeyer I was just checking it.
 
5:00 AM
Now that is camouflage...
 
Bye all! BBL
 
later @Kanna
 
@JonasMeyer That's even better an idea. =)
I am unable to tell (in my laptop); everything is a slight blur here.
It's midnight and they close the shop at this time, gotta leave. Bye!
 
@Srivatsan ahop?
 
I love that the tag is now a shadow of the monolith it once was...
 
5:09 AM
@JM Algebra is a monolithic subject in math.
 
@JM I missed the downfall. I'm guessing people removed it from a bunch of algebra/precalc type questions?
 
@Skullpatrol Like analysis? Which spills over into psychology.
 
@JonasMeyer It's down to fifty or so questions when I checked. Looks like eradication's just around the corner...
 
@robjohn Agreed, but Algebra spills over into everything.
 
@JM Ah, I forgot about the meta discussion on this, and I hadn't really followed it.
 
5:22 AM
@robjohn I think the monolith comparison fits the subject of Algebra because it is so massive and can be viewed from so many different perspectives, what do you think Rob?
While analysis, as you mentioned, is more abstract like psychology.
 
@Skullpatrol Analysis in math and analysis in psychology are very different. Level of abstraction varies heavily within both algebra and analysis. Abstraction in analysis is made easier with the help of algebra.
 
@robjohn I googled what this word means, and got this hit. (Kannappan, please don't click this! :P)
 
Does Srivatsan never sleep? :]
 
@Sri: seems you're right; a little bird told me that the "more than X comments" thing is Community's flag...
 
@JM A little bird flew away?
Thanks for the update.
 
5:33 AM
Well, I was told by that little bird... :)
 
@JonasMeyer I was trying to make a comparison between Algebra and Analysis, .... obviously I failed again :-(
 
leo
@Srivatsan I don't see how to deduce that from the extreme value theorem
 
@JM As I suspected. It was a Jedi Master bird. =)
 
@Skullpatrol I don't know. I'm no one to speak, not really knowing anything about psychology, so don't be disheartened.
 
@leo Ok, so: given a point $a$ in $A$, we can find the distance from $B$, call this function $d(\cdot, B) : A \to \mathbb{R}$.
 
leo
5:40 AM
by consider $f:A\to \mathbb{R}:x\mapsto d(x,B)$, a priory we have $f(x)\geq d(A,B)$
 
@leo Exactly the right first step. I am not sure the inequality is very useful because we don't know that $d(A, B)$ is positive.
So: $f: A \to \mathbb{R}$ looks good.
What can you say about this function?
 
leo
yes, that's that make me doubt
 
@JonasMeyer Psychology has intimate ties to Philosophy and so the level of abstraction gets pretty high pretty fast ... but as you said Analysis is made easier with Algebra.
 
leo
is continuous
in a compact
so attain its minima
 
If you tell someone you work in algebra, you get typical responses like "Oh, I was never very good at algebra." If you tell someone you work in analysis (and the person has little math background) they might assume a different meaning. My aunt's response was, "Oh, yeah, I've worked a lot in analysis, too."
 
5:42 AM
@leo Yes, (1) continuous. (2) compact domain. So it attains its minimum somewhere. Let that point be $a^{\ast}$.
I.e., $d(A, B) \geq d(a^{\ast}, B)$. Is this much clear?
 
leo
ok, up to this point all right,
 
@JonasMeyer But "analysis" is so overloaded a word... :) Not unlike "normal"...
 
@JM Thankfully, at least they don't have a psychoalgebra yet.
 
"I've worked a lot in analysis, too." Lol. My reaction would be to try and start up some heavy analysis conversation with her to drive the point home.
 
"I did work in analysis. The crypto variety. :P"
 
5:45 AM
@leo Right. But now let's look at the problem once more. One of the hypothesis is still unused. Which one?
 
@J.M. I rainbow'd an LM hash once. Does that count? :P
 
@JM Exactly. I knew some students who worked more or less in analysis but said they always used more specialized descriptions if asked by friends/family to avoid (?) misunderstanding.
 
@anon I think so, yes... :)
 
@Srivatsan I once had a psychoalgebra teacher ...
 
@Skull You mean a psycho Algebra teacher? ;)
 
5:47 AM
@Skullpatrol LOL. (I don't think I've ever typed that before, but it feels appropriate in here.)
 
He proooved EVERY thing
 
leo
I don't have see $d(A, B) \geq d(a^{\ast}, B)$
as i saw $d(A,B)\geq f(a^\ast)$
 
@leo For every $a$, $f(a) = d(a, B) \geq f(a^{\ast}) = d(a^{\ast}, B)$. Take infimum over $a$ now.
 
leo
$d(A,B)=\inf\{d(a,B):a\in A\}$?
 
@leo Indeed.
One second, let me check that. :)
 
leo
5:51 AM
always?
 
Actually, I am not very sure.
So, let's do this:
 
leo
that stuck me!
 
$$d(A, B) = \inf_{(a, b)} \ d(a,b) \stackrel{\color{Red}{(!!)}}{=} \inf_{a} \ \inf_{b} \ d(a,b) = \inf_{a} \ d(a, B) .$$
Is this clear, except possibly for the middle step?
 
leo
yes. The middle step is the reason by which I reply you late
 
@Srivatsan Does (!!) over = mean "equals, by definition"
 
5:55 AM
@leo Ah, ok.
@Skullpatrol No. I use it in two related ways: to mean "This step is possibly wrong" or it means "It is yet to be checked".
$d(a, b) \geq \inf \limits_{a,b} \, d(a,b)$, so the RHS is $\geq$ the LHS.
 
Crap, I missed it. Arturo got 100k and it's 5 till midnight where I'm at.
 
*confetti*
 
@Srivatsan Then shouldn't you use the question mark? ... (?) over the =
 
leo
well since $A$ is compact $\{\inf\{d(A,b):b\in B\}\}\subseteq \{d(a,b):a\in A,b\in B\}$
 
@anon Hm. I feel like downvoting four of his posts.
@leo Not sure you would need to use compactness. This is a set-theoretic fact.
Assuming it is a fact.
 
leo
5:59 AM
uh, ok
 
@leo Fact?: $\inf_{a \in A} \ \inf_{b \in B} \ f(a,b) = \inf_{(a,b) \in A \times B} f(a,b)$.
@Skullpatrol I am not sure I particularly care either way. I meant the exclamation mark as a danger or alarm signal, but the question mark has a compelling case too.
 
leo
to me?
i dont know
 
Where this is some other $f$, sorry for the notational clutter. I didn't want to use $d$.
 
leo
$f$ any function, i undrestand
well, no any function, but I understand
:)
 
@leo OK: $f(a,b) \geq \inf_{(u, v)} f(u, v)$. Now take inf over $b$, followed by inf over $a$.
 
6:03 AM
@Srivatsan My psycho Algebra teacher used the question mark over the equals sign as an abbreviation for "Is this statement true?"
 
@leo You will get $LHS \geq RHS$.
@Skullpatrol Sure.
 
leo
@Srivatsan yes I see. Thanks
 
@leo You should do something similar for the other way round as well. Let me think.
OK, let's try to prove $LHS \leq RHS + \varepsilon$ for every $\varepsilon > 0$. That will show $LHS = RHS$. I am not sure if this is the optimum route. :-/
 
leo
thats that i was thinking about
 
Do you want to try this second half on your own first?
 
leo
6:09 AM
ok
@Srivatsan, I have did something like that to prove that the family of closed subsets of a metric space with the Hausdorff distance is a metric space
let me see...
 
@leo I think you mean compact subsets, not just closed.
 
@robjohn I once tried to hunt down the origin of "the question mark over the equals sign" as an abbreviation for "Is this statement true?" But found no meaningful results. Have you ever seen anything on it?
 
Aaarrghh! (user23648)
 
Easy there. The Internet is not worth an increase in blood pressure...
 
True, but that was the frustrated teacher, not the frustrated Internetter.
 
6:19 AM
Actually, if I had a choice between high blood pressure and no internet...
 
On the brighter side, they won't see your veins popping... :) You can still maintain a semblance of serene Arturo-level patience...
 
I actually saw him get a little impatient with someone the other day.
 
I would say it takes a special snowflake to get him that testy...
 
«serene Arturo-level patience» :)
 
What? :D
 
6:25 AM
This particular snowflake is not lacking in ... specialness, I’m afraid.
 
I just loved the expression
 
Does that make it the cat’s meow? :-)
 
The "meow"? Why not the "pajamas"?
 
@BrianMScott What makes the cat meow?
 
Because I thought of the other expression first. They both really belong to my parents’ generation, not to mine.
 
6:28 AM
BTW: do you have grandkids?
 
IOW, are you that old? :)
 
I’m old enough, but I’ve no children, so grandkids would be a neat trick. (I’m 63.)
 
Oh, I see. Sorry for the cheekiness...
 
@BrianMScott Good point.
Sir.
 
@JM I didn’t see it as such.
@Skullpatrol Argh. Don’t you dare. :-)
 
6:31 AM
@BrianMScott Dare ... what?
 
‘Sir’.
 
I called you Sir out of respect.
not contempt
Sorry
:-(
 
That term has a fun history throughout MO and MSE.
Also funny is when non-native English typers make every statement an exclamation!
 
I know you did; I wasn’t accusing you of contempt. I’m just not particularly comfortable with it. I didn’t really mind, hence the smiley, but it’s definitely not necessary. I didn’t mean to make you feel bad.
 
@anon "fun" is too mild a word, methinks... ;)
 
6:35 AM
@BrianMScott Ok
;-)
 
Good enough! :-)
 
@JM If "fun" is too mild a word, what word would you use? (re:"sir") ;-)
 
On the other hand, calling people "sir" and "ma'am" works wonders in real life. (It has the opposite effect when you mix them up.)
 
<splork!!>
 
@JM Why this question out of nowhere? Do you have any?
 
6:39 AM
@anon With the way some people dress today, I've found it easy to make mistakes...
@Srivatsan Curiosity, more than anything. Also I've seen at least one site where there was a father and son both registered and answering on an SE site, but I no longer recall the example.
 
My job is phone surveys, so you can imagine.
 
@anon Oh, you've a job already? 'grats!
I've had that sort of gender confusion on a student once. In my defence, neither her name nor her fashion was of help in discerning...
 
leo
@Srivatsan, fix $(a,b)\in A\times B$. Then $\inf_{v\in B}f(a,v)\leq f(a,b)$, and then $\inf_{u\in A}\inf_{v\in B}f(u,v)\leq f(a,b)$, and then we are done. Are you kidding me?
 
6:59 AM
Hello @all. I have a question =\
 
leo
what
 
Aren't $\ln x$ and $e^x$ symmetric to each other with respect to $y=x$?
 
As long as you ignore $x\le0$ for the graph of $\log x$, yes.
 
@leo one sec.
 
leo
indeed
 
7:01 AM
The better expression would be "one is a reflection of the other about the line $y=x$."
Or more compactly, "one is the inverse of the other."
 
Aha, right. One is the inverse of the other ...
But their graphs do not show this
 
It might help to rotate the paper they're drawn on about forty-five or so degrees...
 
Ah, now I see. I should have drawn them in a piece of paper instead of playing around with Wolfram
 
 
@anon Great, thank you.
 
7:06 AM
Tilting your head would work, too. :)
 
Yes. Do that in a room full of people.
 
I will, I will. =)
Sorry for the interruption.
 
@JM: hey!
 
Hi @Ilya. :)
 
@anon How did you "draw" those graphs?
 
7:14 AM
WolframAlpha
plot y=exp(x), y=x, x=exp(y)
 
@Skullpatrol he has three pencils
 
@anon But the question was for ln(x) ?
 
y=ln(x) plots the same as x=exp(y)
it just works out better graphically in the latter case
 
@anon, btw - do you know how to tell Mathematica explicitly which bounds should be on the graph?
for x-axis and y-axis
 
If you want the same bounds on everything being graphed, yes.
 
7:19 AM
@Ilya You use the PlotRange option.
 
I wonder.
 
leo
good night all!
 
Plot[{E^x, Log[x]}, {x, -4, 4}, PlotRange -> {Automatic, {-5, 5}}]
@AsafKaragila About?
 
@JM thanks
 
@AsafKaragila BTW: I see from the transcript that some of you guys were wondering where the hell I was...
I didn't know people would miss me... :)
 
7:22 AM
There was this guy that asked three questions about cardinals and AC; in the comments he told me that he is an applied mathematician and doesn't know much about those things; online he ran into someone claiming you can prove CH if you limit multiplication by zero to finite cardinals only.
Then, a few days later, comes another guy asking about definition of cardinal multiplication and does multiplication by zero remain defined without the axiom of choice.
 
@JM You are a valuable contributor to this chat room, just like QED was.
 
@AsafKaragila Ah, yes, user23648. He was at it again tonight.
 
Ah yes. I was just about to say, "isn't this 0 times cardinal question coming only days after the very same thing?"
 
Exactly.
@BrianMScott I saw that from my phone before coming here.
The only reason I didn't vote to close the first question was that my answer is substantially different from the one I gave mathNotebook
 
@BrianMScott good evening
@JM don't you remember my words?
 
7:29 AM
@Ilya So many. Which ones?
 
Evening, Ilya.
 
@Ilya I remember you saying "Your Mother?" last night.
 
@JM I've explicitly told you that I would miss you in this chatroom if you fade away
@AsafKaragila memory check passed, take a cookie
 
Morning folks.
Look who's here!
Hello @JM. Long time no see.
 
@Ilya Do I look like a web browser?
 
7:32 AM
@MattN hi, Matt. Sorry for missing in the French room - was busy
 
@AsafKaragila Yes.
 
@AsafKaragila from time to time
 
@Ilya No problem.
 
You guys are jerks.
 
like kids ))
 
7:33 AM
Hey @Matt. FWIW: I intended it to be golden, but it does look like mac and cheese... :D
 
@JM : )
 
@Matt: why do you put a space instead of nose in you smiley? is it an alien smiley?
 
(But I'm due for a molt in about a day or so; enjoy the cheesy goodness while it lasts.)
 
It's a muppet. Possibly Kermit.
 
@Ilya No but IRL my eyes don't touch my mouth either : )
 
7:35 AM
...and :o) looks like a damn clown...
 
At least you don’t use :o).
 
@JM Exactly.
Actually, I started doing it because I used skype a lot and the smileys annoyed me. When you put a space it doesn't get converted.
Now I just do it all the time.
 
@Matt: that is my morning gift to you: )
 
@BrianMScott Too much John Wayne Gacy.
 
@AsafKaragila Duuuude... :(
 
7:37 AM
@JM Whaaaat? :(
 
@Ilya A bracket? Oh, that's.... I don't know what to say. I'm moved. Thank you! : )
 
The big nose is a clown nose.
 
I saw *__* for Uma Thurman, but I would rather refer it to J. Roberts
 
@JM Asaf’s on a gruesome kick today.
 
Sometimes I walk back into this chatroom and wonder how it's even possible.
 
7:38 AM
@BrianMScott That much I can tell...
 
@BrianMScott You can extend "today" in a continuous manner to the past 26 years and 8 months.
 
@BrianMScott today is somehow a nonnecessary word
ah, Asaf
 
Well, I’ve not known him quite so long as you guys.
 
lol, that sounds like a nifty metaphor for analytic continuation.
 
@Asaf: May birthday?
 
7:40 AM
@BrianMScott building the horoscope?
 
@BrianMScott April, actually.
 
@Ilya No, just mildly curious, since mine’s in May.
@AsafKaragila Ah, so you’re all wet! (April showers, and all that.)
 
: D
 
XD
 
@BrianMScott April showers??? I live in Israel, I don't recall any April showers.
 
7:42 AM
@BrianMScott well, don't put showers and Asaf in one sentence :D or if you've done it, don't add chicken there
 
Fine old English tradition, and we’re writing in English, so ...
 
I need to go, see you all later
 
So if we were talking in Aramaic you'd suggest selling me your daughter?
 
@Ilya See you later!
 
Does any one know where the "equals sign with a question mark above it" came from?
 
7:43 AM
Of Aramaic I plead ignorance.
 
@Ilya Good grief, that was months ago... :D
 
@Skullpatrol Not me. Sorry.
 
@JM I actually bought some chicken. I expect to be bathing it soon!
 
@Skullpatrol: For all I know it was some random person deciding to put "?" up there and then it caught on.
 
@Skullpatrol I doubt that it comes from anywhere in particular: it’s a very obvious thing to do. I’m pretty sure that I ‘invented’ it independently at some point.
 
7:44 AM
This Aurifeuillian factorization of cyclotomic polynomials that Dubuque mentioned in an answer is just so cool I'm going to have to link it here. It makes me want to get a blog just so I can link to these things.
 
@BrianMScott you're not the only one ) there should be a long list of us
 
Actually, now that I think of it, I might have also invented it independently.
 
Come to think of maths: may I start talking about set theory?
 
Drats. I have to leave in 10 minutes.
 
No. No you may not. You must dance for us first, Matt.
 
7:46 AM
The last class of the semester, and hopefully of my M.Sc.
@anon Dude...
 
@anon : D
 
Not without scotch!!
 
@anon I love that word. Reminds me...
 
@AsafKaragila Only if you pass all the exams.
 
Nah, he should try drinking scotch and then taking exams...
 
7:47 AM
@MattN I wouldn't worry about that. I have one exam to which I know the answers in advance.
@JM Twice in my undergrad I got to an exam drunk.
 
That reminds me: I briefly considered quitting yesterday.
@AsafKaragila Sounds good. How did it work out?
 
Awesome.
 
@AsafKaragila At first I misread that as I got an exam drunk.
 
In the first I passed, but failed the sober resit (I figured I could get a higher grade if I'm sober); in the second I failed but it was a good thing. The resit was so much easier that I got 92.
 
@BrianMScott That sounds like a more interesting development...
 
7:49 AM
I thought so.
 
@BrianMScott I think I was confused about defining $G^\ast$ the other day because towards the bottom of the page they define it in terms of $F$, or at least that's what it looks like to me.
(I finished dancing already.)
@AsafKaragila I don't get it. If you passed why would you have to re-sit?
 
for a better grade perhaps
 
Wow. This uni he's going to is way too nice.
@JM Did you miss us? And is this come back of lasting nature?
 
@MattN If I got 58 whilst drunk and without studying, my logic was that I would get 70 if I study a bit and come sober.
I failed miserably and had to retake the course.
 
(Took a while for the page to load.) No, $G^*$ is given. The theorem then says that there is a function $F:\omega\to X$ that has a certain relationship to this given $G^*$.
 
7:55 AM
@AsafKaragila Which course was this?
 
@AsafKaragila Yeah well, logic doesn't apply to grades. At least not where I come from.
 
@Srivatsan Probability.
 
hi Ilya, Matt
 
@Srivatsan Hello there! : )
 
Oh, well, probability’s a crap shoot anyway.
2
 
7:55 AM
Yeah.
 
@BrianMScott Starred. (In lack of a like or upvote button.)
 
@BrianMScott God does not play craps.
 
Hi everyone
 
Hello @robjohn!
 
The following year I'd taken measure theory as well, and although I got 84 in the exam of measure theory, in the retaken exam I barely scraped 57 again. This time I did not try to resit.
 
7:57 AM
@BrianMScott I am surprised you said that. But why (would you say that)?
 
As a joke. After all, craps is a game of probabilities.
 
Hm, right.
 
Well, I am going now. I shall be back later!
 
@robjohn Hi Rob.
 
@robjohn Hi rob.
 
7:58 AM
@MattN Lasting, yes. I only needed a short reprieve from math.SE. Kind of like a "cool-off".
 
@BrianMScott Oh right. Now I see it (the joke). I was slow.. =)
 
What I wasn't counting on was people stalking me... :P
 
@JM Heh? Who?
 

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