The Nineteenth Byte

@MitchSchwartz Sorry, not sure how to express myself more clearly. Again: I don't think the rep is a problem. Wasting three bounties on arbitrary answers when you could draw attention to great answers is.

Mitch Schwartz

i would like to encourage people to study all of ton's answers

flawr

(In case it's not obvious, I did not actually have any substantive ideas about the question at hand while walking with the kids, though I did buy a cute little drum shaped like a frog.) — JSE Nov 14 '10 at 23:05

Mitch Schwartz

and they could decide for themselves which they find most excpetional

Anonymous

@flawr Umm what?

mbomb007

15

A: Proper Bounty Usage

Bounties are about two things Rewarding excellent answers, and incentivizing users to answer a specific challenge, or even a sub challenge, e.g, the shortest bf answer gets a bounty, outgolf this particular answer, etc. In both of these situations, the point of the bounty is the answer, not t...

user165474

9:09 PM

@MitchSchwartz If that's the case, I'd choose some more exceptional answers to bounty so that way at least it doesn't look suspicious. Additionally, bounties are to be rewarded to answers, not users.

flawr

@Mego Also just a very random comment in the context there=)

OOh, this is the guy that wrote "How not to be wrong"!

DJMcMayhem

"I will post analysis later". (waits for 3 years).... — Justin Feb 26 '14 at 3:40

Mitch Schwartz

i just think this is basically much ado about nothing

Martin Ender

In addition to what Alex said, you're also more likely to make people look up his other answers, if the ones you're showing off aren't some random answers, but some of his best.

Mitch Schwartz

writing golf answers and explanations takes work

voting does not

Anonymous

9:10 PM

@DJMcMayhem It's coming soon. 6-8 ~~weeks~~ years.

ATaco

Needs more RProgN

mbomb007

@MitchSchwartz This is a professional site. In a way, you're misusing the bounty system.

Anonymous

I really hoped we were done with this discussion. The question was answered.

Mitch Schwartz

so why not reverse all those votes for hello world stuck

Anonymous

Now we're just repeating the same things over and over without actually making any progress towards any goal

Mitch Schwartz

9:11 PM

on such a professional site

ATaco

INSTEAD let's write a Threead Quine!

TuxCopter

hm no thanks

ATaco

:/

mbomb007

@MitchSchwartz Because the language was created before the challenge, so it's actually a good answer.

Mitch Schwartz

good answer, well

Martin Ender

9:12 PM

@Mego I was offering a solution I thought everyone could be happy with, but I guess I misjudged that situation. So yeah, I think we're done with this discussion.

Mitch Schwartz

ok

Anonymous

@MartinEnder Yes, a few hours ago :)

Mitch Schwartz

mm, i was responding to new pings

well, one new ping

Anonymous

I honestly don't care either way. I don't think it's abuse of the system now, but if your solution makes everybody happy, then it's a good solution.

Martin Ender

Well it doesn't. So it's not. Nevermind.

ATaco

9:14 PM

hmm, is a Quine possible in every Turing complete language? Is it possible to write a language in which this is not the case?

Anonymous

I'm just tired of the same discussion dominating chat for hours, with most of it just being repeating what's already been said multiple times.

Martin Ender

@ATaco it's possible in every Turing complete language. Google "fixed-point theorem" and "quine".

ATaco

Well that's good news for Threead

ais523

@MartinEnder not quite true, you can intentionally design a language with insane I/O

Martin Ender

(Although you'll have to be a bit careful about how you define encoding. I could write a Turing complete language that can only print 0s and 1s but uses only letters for its commands. In that case, you'd need to define some encoding on the output to define arbitrary strings, and then one of those strings will match the source that produces it.)

@ais523 sorry, was still typing :P

ais523

9:15 PM

like, the language has to be capable of producing a representation of its own source internally

ATaco

a malbolge quine exists

ais523

but you can intentionally cripple the I/O to the extent that it has no way to output it

Mitch Schwartz

i think it's funny that people who vote can do whatever they want as long as they don't trip the automatic abuse detection, at no loss of points, but if you are willing to give away all your "hard earned" points then somehow it's a cause for serious action and discussion

mbomb007

@ais523 If you did so, then the language would no longer be Turing complete.

Mitch Schwartz

if you don't do it in a way that is regarded as professional, apparently

Anonymous

9:16 PM

TC-ness doesn't rely on I/O

ais523

@mbomb007 it would be, a language can be TC with no I/O other than "terminated" and "went into an infinite loop"

ATaco

the Quine doesn't necessarily need to output it

redstarcoder

Are there any esolangs which run on an arduino?

Martin Ender

@Mego well, TC-ness relies on computable functions. and computable functions have outputs. and if you have any mapping of those outputs to strings, one of those functions will output a value that corresponds to its source.

El'endia Starman

@MitchSchwartz I'd bet it's mostly because 1) 3 500-rep bounties at once is very unusual behavior and 2) the answers intended to get those bounties are also unusual choices for 500-rep bounties. So people see that and they go "Wait a minute, what are you really doing?" or "Uh, is that allowed?".

mbomb007

9:18 PM

> A quine is a fixed point of an execution environment, when the execution environment is viewed as a function. Quines are possible in any Turing complete programming language, as a direct consequence of Kleene's recursion theorem.

ATaco

im going to bounty off a threead Quine when I get to a computer

user165474

What's a thread quine?

Mitch Schwartz

i wonder if it were don knuth instead of ton hospel, whether people would respond similarly

ATaco

theead, not thread

Anonymous

@MartinEnder I'm talking about I/O in the normal sense (like STDIN/STDOUT or function arguments and return values). It's entirely possible to have a TC language whose I/O is entirely memory-mapped (see BitChanger, for example).

Martin Ender

9:19 PM

@MitchSchwartz yes, because you seem to be ignoring what people are telling you.

mbomb007

@MitchSchwartz Again, as Martin said, bounties are awarded to answers, not to users.

Martin Ender

no one is objecting to giving Ton 1500 rep.

El'endia Starman

@MitchSchwartz Well, why not? Ton Hospel seems to be fairly well-known here as a really good golfer.

Martin Ender

I fully agree that he deserves them.

ATaco

threead is an esoteric language being written for the tine capsule

time*

El'endia Starman

9:20 PM

It's not the recipient that people are making a fuss about.

user165474

@MitchSchwartz Well, I have no idea who Don is, so yeah I'd respond similarly.

user165474

@ATaco oh okay

ATaco

tio.run/nexus/threead

ais523

my problem with the bounties is that they're promoting worse answers when better ones by the same user exist

ATaco

No

ais523

9:21 PM

and thus leading to a lopsided view of which answers are interesting

ATaco

different topic

talk about that in a different chat

pleade

user165474

@ais523 No, I doubt that people are going to see an answer with a +500 bounty and say "oh, it must automatically be right"

ATaco

please*

Martin Ender

> PPCG-related (on-topic) discussion always overrides idle chatter.

El'endia Starman

@ATaco Well, where do you suggest we talk about site-related matter?

ais523

9:22 PM

@AlexL. well the questions (and thus the corresponding answers) go into the featured list as a result of the bounty

so it's drawing attention to those answers specifically

mbomb007

> General discussion for codegolf.stackexchange.com

ais523

why not draw attention to the most exemplary?

user165474

@ais523 I agree with you on that, but I'm just pointing out that bounties aren't going to automatically make people think they're good.

Martin Ender

@ATaco if you want to bounty it, you might want to add an actual command reference to your github's readme

user165474

It will draw attention to those answers though, but not the user.

Martin Ender

9:24 PM

@ATaco also the title of your readme says "Threed"

mbomb007

@AlexL. Yeah they are.

Or at least they'll make users think "what the hell what the user awarding the bounty thinking?"

The user will see the 500 bounty and be immediately drawn to look at the answer that must be awesome, then they'll see the mediocre answer.

user165474

Yeah that's what I thought at first.

user165474

Wait

user165474

I forgot

user165474

Mitch said that he was giving rep to a specific user

user165474

9:28 PM

so it would draw attention to ton

mbomb007

A ton of it

ba-dum chhhh

user165474

lol I'm actually laughing

Nathan Merrill

has Ton said anything about the rep issue?

flawr

What if he doesn't want all the rep?

Nathan Merrill

oh, then we can start a bounty train!

user165474

9:32 PM

@NathanMerrill nooooo please

ais523

I have the problem that I don't really care for site privileges, but I do care about my position on the leaderboards

user165474

@flawr Why wouldn't someone want all the rep?

user165474

Actually, I could see why he might not want it.

ais523

and offering bounties causes your position on those to drop

something which really annoys me, because it implies that offering bounties means that your contributions are less valuable

3

the most obvious solution to this is just to start a new account, but I assume that that's against some rule or other

alternatively, I can alternate between periods of low activity / rep reduction, and periods of repcapping

Martin Ender

@ais523 alternatively, you can try earning more bounties than you spend ;)

user165474

9:37 PM

Yeah, rep is kinda like money. Work well and you earn it. Do bad things and you get fined. You can tip people for good answers too.

ATaco

Someone gave an answer of mine a bounty and I have no idea as to why

ais523

@MartinEnder yes, but I'd still get more points by not spending, unless you can think of a way to give bounties in such a way that more people bounty me in return

I've been known to go for bounties before now, during my repcapping periods

(that's where the Cubix quine came from, for example)

user165474

@ais523 Or you could be like @MartinEnder and have 169k rep so that a 500 rep bounty makes practically no difference to you.

Martin Ender

@ais523 I was only half serious ;)

ATaco

I almost have 2k rep :D

ais523

9:39 PM

@AlexL. when your rep level's that high, it basically just indicates that a) you can repcap consistently and b) you've been onsite for a long time

user165474

I almost have 1k rep... :D?

Mitch Schwartz

i am bored, bye

ais523

because there's a fairly hard limit on how fast you can earn rep on PPCG

ATaco

bye

ais523

(we basically don't use accepted answers here, for good reason, so you're limited by repcap + bounties)

VisualMelon

9:40 PM

@NathanMerrill did you get a response to this, or would you still like one from me? (dynamic)

ATaco

I should use Lua more, it usually earns me more than RProgN

Nathan Merrill

@VisualMelon I'd still love one

I think I understand it: its basically the ability to declare var instead of int

VisualMelon

no, dynamic is a type provided by the DLR ('Dynamic Language Runtime', for IronPython, IronRuby, etc.)

well, it's a 'type'

it basically says "please duck type this for me"

to answer you original question, I wouldn't use it ;)

you can do stuff like dynamic d = "Horse";d = d.Length;d = d.NotARealMethod()

and it will get to the third statement and crash in runtime

Nathan Merrill

right, but how would you do that in a lambda

VisualMelon

(dynamic a, dynamic b) => a + b;

I presume the resulting type would be 'dynamic', let me try to work it out...

(I never use it so this isn't applied knowledge/understanding)

Nathan Merrill

9:45 PM

lets say there's an interface you're implementing with your lambda

and the variable passed is dynamic

do you have to put the dynamic keyword in the lambda?

VisualMelon

yes, you have to explicitly state you want to throw away everything nice about the language

Nathan Merrill

I should have been clearer: the dynamic type is in the interface itself

interface foo {
     someFunc(dynamic a);
}

if you are using a lambda to implement foo, does a => a + 1 work?

VisualMelon

well, you can't implement an interface method with lambda syntax

Nathan Merrill

really?

like, if something takes a comparable, you can't just pass a comparable lambda?

Poke

someone upvoted me and now i have over 1k rep. tada

New Bounties With No Deadlines

9:48 PM

0

A: List of bounties with no deadline

Build a faster Quine, 200* reputation A bit to my surprise my recent bounty on Fastest Mini-Flak Quine expired without anyone other than myself completing the challenge. Since I think this is a legitimately fun and interesting challenge I would like to offer further incentive for participation....

Poke

thanks random person

VisualMelon

yeah, this is where C# is different to Java

we have delegates rather than 'function' interfaces

Nathan Merrill

when do you use lambdas then?

that's like 90% of my use case

VisualMelon

when stuff takes delegates, it happens a lot

(e.g. Linq is all lambdas)

redstarcoder

@Poke congratulations, welcome to the 1k+ world! \o/

user165474

9:50 PM

@redstarcoder I feel left out... :'(

redstarcoder

You're so close! :p

Nathan Merrill

ok, let me ask another way: is it possible for me to pass your lambda a dynamic variable such that your lambda doesn't have to declare it dynamic, but you can still use it as such?

Poke

@redstarcoder Thanks. I can edit questions or something now.

user165474

@redstarcoder Well, at least I have over 1k rep on SO! :D

VisualMelon

> delegate dynamic DynDel(dynamic a, dynamic b);
> DynDel d = (a, b) => a + b;
> d("Full", "Moon")
"FullMoon"
> d(10, 12)
22
like that?

Poke

9:51 PM

I have 101 rep on SO. It's an accomplishment I'm proud of.

Nathan Merrill

@VisualMelon yeah, that looks about right

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@Poke very nice

Nathan Merrill

however, despite the fact that dynamic exists, I think my post still stands in regards to C#: you still are depending on the dynamic type

user165474

@Poke Site association? Wait, I just realized that I don't have 101 rep anywhere. My lowest is 131 for Code Review and for Math.

Poke

@AlexL. yep ;)

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

9:53 PM

How do I do matrices to a power in mathematica?

VisualMelon

yeah, I'm pretty sure ours is the only meaningful interpretation

and dynamic isn't free, you need to include a whole different library for it I think

Nathan Merrill

wait, so is dynamic a class that's named using lowercase?

or is it a keyword?

TuxCopter

'night

user165474

Night?

user165474

oh wait

user165474

9:55 PM

time zones

TuxCopter

@NathanMerrill A keyword, but Dynamic is a class

user165474

lol

TuxCopter

like object and Object

@AlexL. Yeah, UTC+1 and DST

Nathan Merrill

so, if its a keyword, you shouldn't need a library to use the keyword, right?

TuxCopter

~~No, you don't need a library~~ v

VisualMelon

9:55 PM

@NathanMerrill dynamic is a keyword, but the backing classes are in a different library

@TuxCopter oh, am I in the past?

(sure that used to be the case)

user165474

@VisualMelon Wouldn't that cause a lot of problems? Like, if you used that keyword without importing the library.

VisualMelon

no, because the compiler would tell you

Nathan Merrill

if it is like object vs Object, it makes a lot of sense

like, I don't need to import Object to use hashCode()

but I do need to import it if I do new Object()

VisualMelon

this is a different meaning of import

import in Java is a syntax thing, we are really talking about references

(i.e. DLLImports)

Nathan Merrill

so, going back to your "dynamic isn't free", you're just saying that it includes code from other libraries

but that's true of pretty much everything

VisualMelon

9:59 PM

... only it looks like I'm wrong!

and @TuxCopter was right

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