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7:00 PM
Yes
 
what if the implementation is just lost
 
Same way unimplemented features are invalid.
@wyldstallyns How is that different from no implementation?
 
how is a lost implementation different than a mathematica i can't afford
 
Mathematica exists.
 
the implementation exists somewhere too
 
7:02 PM
Hmm. Looking at codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/77301/52661 , just for clarification, is this valid?
 
as radiation headed toward andromeda
well fooey
 
The solution doesn't technically end the loop at any deterministic point, just hopefully loops enough times.
 
that means i need to stop working on the brainfuckx answer
shakes tiny fist at sky
 
"Man yells at cloud"
 
@Xanderhall hey, that's my challenge!
Seems fine to me
 
7:04 PM
@Xanderhall it loops the maximum number of times that loop can iterate unless you'd rather i use a long
which might actually save me bytes
 
what if the implementation is pencil and paper
 
well nvm
 
@DJMcMayhem How do I create a time delay in vim/V?
 
it would if i had said Integer.MAX_VALUE
 
Are you answering the wave one?
 
7:05 PM
:)
 
@Poke But is it allowed to just loop like that until you hope you've got the answer?
 
If it loops N times where N is the length of the string then it has the answer
 
Nice. I was hoping to, but I can't figure out the best way to create the starting wave, and it's hard to vim-golf from my phone, lol
 
@Poke But you don't know how long the string is.
 
looping more times is a no-op
 
7:06 PM
i'm headed to esolang to add an interpreter called "ByHand" whose output is a recording of a human following the program instructions
 
I assume the string is a length that is representable by the language i'm using
 
@DJMcMayhem I totally forgot to generate the starting wave, but I got the wave animation part (except for the time delay)
 
@KritixiLithos you can either do gs for seconds or :sl for more fine tuned
 
@Poke I suppose.
 
@KritixiLithos ah, that's an important step, haha. Building the starting wave would be much easier in V because of the rep-char command
 
7:08 PM
Considering Java's max length for a String is in fact Integer.MAX_VALUE
 
Do you have V running locally?
 
Not yet
 
0
Q: Variable-Prices income!

SEJPMIntroduction and credit Assume you're a bartender. You have many happy people in your bar at most times, but many only ever drink the very same drink and too few for your taste and you want to change that. So you introduce a system where the price of a drink is variable, depending on how many ha...

 
and the maximum the brackets program can then run is the String.length()/2, since you can remove at least one pair of brackets every loop.
 
Hmm. It's kind of a pain, but it's necessary for this challenge
Since it wouldn't work on TIO
 
7:10 PM
@Poke Just seemed shady to not have a deterministic ending, y'know?
 
@Xanderhall I see what you're saying. That was one of my first answers :]
 
@KritixiLithos Do you know how the "rep-char" command works?
 
No, but is it on the wiki?
 
No, lol
None of the insert mode commands are yet
 
@Poke I figured :P I mean, it's technically deterministic if you know the max length of a String, it just seemed strange
 
7:13 PM
I can add a comment to the answer
 
Basically, in insert mode, type <alt-n><char> to insert "n" copies of "char"
 
But first, I have to get V's dependencies
There are a lot
 
@Rainbolt On the plus side, you're no longer a pumpkin.
 
@Poke You could also change it to a function to save bytes
 
Yeah, sorry about that. TBH, I almost never run V locally since TIO is more convenient
 
7:17 PM
lol
 
@Xanderhall that's true but i'll keep to the spirit of that answer and leave it as a full program
 
What OS are you on?
 
macOS El Capitan
 
@Poke But bytes! D:
 
Oh OK. I've never ran V on osx before. I think downgoat has though
 
7:20 PM
Luckily I have brew
 
i know i know
 
So running V locally is like running Vim locally?
 
it would save quite a few bytes, too
no more class. no more main. String instead of String[]
 
Similar. It's really a Python wrapper that embeds a neovim instance so it can feed keystrokes in
 
14
A: What's the policy on interpreter bugs?

DoorknobThe interpreter(/compiler) defines the language A spec is not a language. For the purposes of PPCG, a programming language is defined by its implementation. If the interpreter is fixed after the challenge is posted, the answer must be marked as non-competing—just like any other answer in a lang...

 
7:21 PM
@wyldstallyns We don't allow that. It's not deterministic, since a human can choose to halt at any time.
@KritixiLithos V has more commands than Vim, I think.
 
see the above policy on interpreter bugs
 
@mbomb007 I meant whether you can edit a file using V like you can in vim
 
@El'endiaStarman 3B1B: 1+2+3+... = -1/12
 
@KritixiLithos oh, in that case no. But you could source all of the vimscript files and run it interactively
 
@flawr We did this sort of math in Complex Analysis. Very fun/interesting.
 
7:25 PM
@Poke that regex string is so gross XD
I wish there was a smaller way to do it
 
neovim is taking a long time to install
 
@mbomb007 I liked complex analysis a lot.
 
If I install neovim, do I still need to install neovim from pip?
 
@flawr It was so enjoyable for me because it was my last semester, and it was the professor's last semester. We would bring our homework, go over it in partners, then turn it in for the grade. I could worry less about letter grades and more about learning/enjoying the material.
All classes should be like that. Less about grades, more about learning and self-improvement.
 
@mbomb007 Wow soo cool! Did you already have a number theory class?
 
7:29 PM
Then, cheating would have no purpose.
 
@Xanderhall yeah the double backslash is killer :P
 
@flawr Real Analysis?
 
@KritixiLithos yeah, one is a text editor, the other is a Python library
 
Numerical Analysis
 
@mbomb007 That is usually not considered number theroy XD
 
7:30 PM
Eventually I'd like to remove neovim completely and switch to vim
 
How do I install neovim from pip? (I installed everything else)
 
@flawr shrug Didn't have a class called "Number Theory"
 
@mbomb007 Right now I'm in a position where I can more or less do this! And it really feels good.
 
@flawr ^ Some other classes, I was so worried about grades or something that I would use Google to find similar problems and answers.
 
@mbomb007 Well number theory is about the properties of whole numbers (and rational numbers).
 
7:32 PM
ninja'd
 
@mbomb007 Same here :)
 
@Poke I wish Java could use array literals in place of actual arrays in places other than assignment
 
@KritixiLithos I think it's just pip install neovim. You might need Python-dev also
 
Like, you can do int[] i = {1,2,3}, but not for(int i : {1,2,3}){}
 
@flawr Well, I had Abstract Algebra, which has information on groups.
 
7:33 PM
@feersum I'd even say algebraic numbers in general. Those numbers that do not matter so much in real analysis :D
 
@Xanderhall You wish this for golf specifically, or in general?
 
@mbomb007 Did you enjoy it?
 
@Rainbolt In general.
You have to do for(int i : new int[] {1,2,3}){}
 
@flawr That prof liked proofs. I'm not good at memorizing theorems for creating proofs.
I would've enjoyed it more if I hadn't had to focus on grades and how bad I was doing at proofs.
 
So did you enjoy the topic of abstract algebra if you ignore how your class was?
 
7:35 PM
Yeah. It was interesting.
 
@mbomb007 If you enjoyed that, you might enjoy Predicate Logic, the p->q stuff
 
Well if you liked complex analysis and abstract algebra then you'd probably also like number theory!l
 
I majored in both computer science AND mathematics.
@Xanderhall I'm a graduate. I already did all of that.
 
I don't know why I'm assuming you've never done that stuff.
Yeah.
 
@Xanderhall well java has started the type-inference train with lambdas in java 8
 
7:36 PM
In fact, as a double major, I basically learned logic gates twice.
 
so maybe some day
 
I'm bad ><
@Poke I mean, I really like that Java's strict about stuff. You always know what's going on. It's just inconvenient in some places.
 
@Xanderhall I learned predicate logic and logic gates in math and compsci (2 classes) in the same semester. I also got addicted to Minecraft and "programmed" in redstone. So 3 places at once.
 
@mbomb007 Did you actually manage to get degrees in both? I double-majored but could only get my degree in CompSci because I couldn't fit one of the last required Math courses in.
 
@TimmyD Yeah.
I fit in electives, too.
 
7:38 PM
@mbomb007 I have a friend who enjoys redstone. On that note, I need to start submitting Minecraft Redstone answers.
XD
 
Dang, nice.
 
@Xanderhall There's an open bounty for a prime checker in MC. I'm currently designing it in Logisim.
 
@TimmyD Can you have double-major in STEM subjects in the US?
 
And I'm making it extendable to an arbitrary number of bits.
 
@flawr Sure.
 
7:39 PM
@mbomb007 Modded Minecraft challenge: program a turtle that will tell you if the ID of the block in front of it is a prime number
 
@DJMcMayhem Now how do I run a V program?
 
@TimmyD how cool is that!
 
@Xanderhall I don't really like mods.
 
@KritixiLithos next stage is 66 stars :)
 
only 59 more to go!
 
7:41 PM
@flawr I think, in general, people wind up like me, though, and just miss getting both majors. CompSci/Math is probably one of the easiest to double-major in, though.
Though. Though.
 
@TimmyD How can you miss getting both?
 
@Xanderhall isn't it just lua code at that point
 
@flawr Ahhhh I'm so watching this when I get home!
 
@flawr Quirk of English. Meaning, you get one, but not both.
 
@TimmyD Yeah, I planned out my whole four years ahead of time to ensure I could fit it and that I had enough classes to get credit for 2 reqs at once.
 
7:43 PM
I did similar, but one of the professors had a heart attack and retired, so my junior/senior years schedules were off from how they were planned when I was a freshman.
 
i didn't plan that much and got one major
wheee
 
@TimmyD Haha, well I understood it that way, but what should you have done in order to get both (what you apparently did not do)?
 
Anonymous
@Poke That's the way to do it!
 
@Poke I honestly have no idea how I ended up choosing to double-major. I think the departments asked what I wanted, and I must've been like "both".
So I got my money's worth
 
I started as a computer engineer because it had the words "computer" and "engineer" in it. Once we started doing circuits and stuff I got right outta dodge
 
7:46 PM
lol
 
interesting stuff
but not for me
 
@Poke haha=)
 
Though, I did manage to squeeze my way into a small-group algorithms course (8 people per semester only) with a professor who's actual $DAYJOB was doing some government stuff for Sandia.
 
@Poke Can I somehow combine "chocolate" and "engineer"?
 
@Poke I went for Systems Admin even though InfoSys was what I wanted to do, simply to avoid taking any business, stats, or accounting classes.
 
7:47 PM
@flawr if you figure this out i'm pretty sure most people here will want updates
 
I wanted to take as many programming classes as possible
 
In the US you usually talk about undergrad/grad instaed of bachelor/masters degree, right?
 
@flawr Chocolate Factory? You wanna be Willy Wonka?
 
Do computer science majors usually have any electronics lab?
 
@flawr I would have had to take an extra course and graduate a semester later. Or find some way to treat it as an independent learning endeavor and overload one of my last two semesters.
 
7:48 PM
@TimmyD ah I see!
 
@feersum No. That was engineering.
 
@mbomb007 yeah then i had the tough decision of software engineering or computer science
i don't regret picking software engineering
 
@mbomb007 I know, but I'm asking about CS.
 
science engineering would sound cool AF too
 
@feersum They have a standard computer lab, and maybe a special one where they can disassemble and rebuild them.
 
7:49 PM
@Poke That's exactly what I did. Halfway through circuits 1 I dropped the class and changed majors.
 
@Riley high five
 
But no electronics lab for transistors or circuits.
 
Anonymous
@flawr Either/or. Undergrad/grad is the difference between not having a degree (associates degree doesn't count) and having one. There are a lot of doctoral programs that don't have a masters degree prerequisite (either because there is no masters degree like in medicine, or the masters degree is part of the program also).
 
@mbomb007 You mean like a lab about how to plug in RAM sticks and whatnot?
 
@flawr Nah.
 
Anonymous
7:50 PM
Undergrad is usually working towards a bachelor's degree, but not always
 
@feersum Yeah. The class was heading towards ComTIA A+ certification.
 
@feersum My CompSci curriculum had a class where we went through logic gates, how a CPU is built, etc., and I think we did a couple labs with a breadboard, but that was just background so we could understand what the assembly instructions meant.
 
But I didn't bother to pay for the test.
@TimmyD Same, but instead of a breadboard we used Logisim.
 
@Mego so a graduate is someone who has a bachelor's degree (not necessarily studying anymore), and undergrad someone who hasn't that degree yet (but working towards it), and a "grad student" is someone who has that degree and is working towards a masters degree?
 
It's like the MC redstone simulator, but more accurate.
@flawr Yep
 
Anonymous
7:53 PM
@flawr Almost. A grad student is a student who already has at least one major degree, and is working towards a higher degree. Having a bachelors and working towards a masters is common, but not the only case.
 
I distinctly remember working with a 7-segment display, and we were supposed to construct a simple counter loop with half adders and whatnot. And my small group somehow stumbled onto some quirk of quantum physics or something.
 
@Mego so a doctoral student (or whatever you call it) can also be called a grad student sometimes?
 
Anonymous
@flawr Yes, though not frequently.
 
If you completely turned off power to the board (i.e., unplugged it from mains) but had the circuit in the "run" position, when power was applied it worked fine.
 
Anonymous
A few examples: I met my wife and one of my friends while we were undergraduates, working towards our respective bachelors degrees. My wife is considering doing a doctoral program in a few years (there is no masters degree requirement because she will earn the equivalent of a masters degree during the program - the field doesn't really have a masters degree). My friend from college is in grad school right now, working on his masters degree. Both are examples of graduate school.
 
7:54 PM
@Mego Ok well now things start to make sense, thank you very much for the explanatiosn!
 
Anonymous
@flawr Glad to help :)
 
But if you had the circuit "off" but mains power "on", it like looped 2-6-3-7-2-6-3-7... or something, when you flipped the circuit on.
 
I'm building a duck hunt game for my electronics coursework at school
 
@Mego Well I recently learned that there are doctoral programs that do not require a masters degree (by looking at Kate Rubin's CV) and was astonished that this is possible. (As far as I am aware all doctoral programs require masters degrees in Europe)
 
Anonymous
To muddy the waters even more, I have another friend who has a bachelors degree in biochemical engineering. He's in med school right now, going for his MD. You could call what he's doing right now "grad school", but typically med school isn't called grad school because it's considerably different (earning a MD instead of a M* and/or PhD)
 
Anonymous
7:56 PM
@flawr Yeah in Europe your education system is a lot more uniform
 
@Mego Well not in all parts, but perhaps in that regard=)
@Mego That seems to be similar here.
@Mego When it comes to the primary and secondary education things vary here every bunch of miles :)
 
Anonymous
My wife is considering pursuing a career in audiology. The program she wants to do in a few years will grant her both a masters and a doctorate. However, there isn't really a bachelors degree in audiology offered anywhere - usually people (my wife included) start with a degree in education, specializing in deaf education.
 
Anonymous
@flawr In the US, we can't even agree how many grades primary school consists of. 5? 6? 8? Who knows?
 
@Mego Well here they at least try =P
 
Anonymous
America is built on freedom - especially the freedom to do whatever wacky, stupid thing you want with your local educational system :P
 
8:00 PM
@Mego Wow this is really cool! (I mean what your wife does)
 
Heck, we can't even come up with standardized names. Elementary or Primary, or Grade School, or Middle School or Junior High ... High School at least seems standardized.
 
@TimmyD well high school is easy to remember as this is where the students get high on a daily basis
 
I drive by a high school every day, can confirm. ^
 
Yep.
 
It's fun living right next to the one high-school in town that has the worst reputation for druggies going there
 
8:05 PM
@flawr can confirm, have attended high school
@Mego 2 is the only correct answer
 
Although I'm moving really soon, so I shouldn't have to put up with that much longer
 
@flawr found what looks like a slowworm in my yard, it has legs though. other than that it looks the same
 
And fur. And a tail. And ears. Dog. You found a dog.
 
@TimmyD dog-breeders are really stretching the DNA then
 
@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ An "oath lizard" (literal translation from german)
 
8:07 PM
oh cool
@flawr what's the german translation? (for searching)
Eidechse?
 
@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ yep
 
Well we call everything that looks like a lizardish thing of about that size Eidechse.
Except for geckos
 
(but the origin of the word Eidechse probably has nothing to do with Eid (oath))
 
8:10 PM
"Ooh look, here's wikipedia for "Eidechse"... wait that says 'Real Lizards'"
 
@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ Well at least it isn't fake lizards
 
@flawr google translate thinks oath lizard = Eidechse, but they may just have that because of the colloquial use
@flawr true
 
@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ Gotta come up with the new hot fashion Vitsy's somehow. ;-)
 
@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ well you have to be somewhat careful with the WP "traslations". quite often there are multiple articles on one language but just one on the other, but since they changed the system a few years ago, you can only bijectively link articles across the languages...
 
8:12 PM
oh, interesting
@flawr makes sense, and it's probably unrealistic now to try to expand/contract the language to match the others
> visually similar images:
such lizard much wow
 
@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ I just see a dog, a laughing dinosaur and an owl in this picture
@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ O_O wait is this some kind of rorschach test???
 
no, it's a google result for reverse image searching the image I posted in here
 
@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ Looks like the femur of a cowboy that was burned to death.
 
@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ ah lol
 
you both have very interesting imaginations
 
8:15 PM
good times
 
These real and fake lizards make me think of this:
Reptiles is a lithograph print by the Dutch artist M. C. Escher first printed in March 1943. It depicts a desk upon which is a 2D drawing of a tessellated pattern of reptiles and hexagons. The reptiles at one edge of the drawing emerge into three dimensional reality, come to life and appear to crawl over a series of symbolic objects (a book on nature, a geometers triangle, a three dimensional/pentagonal dodecahedron, a pewter bowl containing a box of matches and a box of cigarettes) to eventually re-enter the drawing at its opposite edge. Other objects on the desk that may also be symbolic are...
 
@flawr still not sure why that's a lizard, but ok
@trichoplax can confirm that is not the lizard I am looking for
 
It's a good thing I hadn't discovered code golf while in college.
I would've been tempted to golf my homework.
 
@trichoplax I love these drawings!
 
8:16 PM
@mbomb007 11/10 should do
 
Yes I didn't think it was the one in question - I just love the image
 
@mbomb007 in my comp sci class, the professor insisted I commented every single line
 
why
there is such a thing as too many comments
 
@flawr Submit it ungolfed too. In case the prof is in a rush for grading.
 
That's what I said
 
8:17 PM
and that almost certainly fits the bill
@DJMcMayhem wtf did he expect you to put on these comments?
 
Clearly your lines aren't complex enough.
 
Idk
 
^^
 
$j++; //increments the variable j
 
I kinda just bullshitted all of them.
^^ like that
 
8:18 PM
printf('1') // uhhhh this prints 1
 
@DJMcMayhem That's when you put the CODE in the comments, and find some way to use reflection to interpret it.
int x=0;   // line 1
int y=1;   // line 2
 
@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ printf('1') // uhhhh this printfs 1 FTFY
 
She also said "never ever ever use a std::vector because arrays are faster"
She taught computer science very well, but C++ horribly
 
Is it possible to use reflection to treat your comments as code and your code as comments?
 
You can't teach C++ in any other way as it is a horrible language.
 
8:22 PM
Fastest is always best. Safety, readability, writability and versatility are just words.
Actually, I'm not even sure they are all words.
 
you mean grokability
 
Ah yes
 
borkability, the only intrinsic property of C++
 
well, they're S, R, W, and V. Change the order and you can have SWRV, for swervability.
 
8:24 PM
> If it ain't bork, don't fix it.
 
why do they have a crab on the wall? THE WORLD WILL NEVER KNOW
 
"crap" on the wall?
 
C++ isn't that bad, but the cryptic error messages are the worst
 
@DJMcMayhem and there is soooo much that can go wrong
 
@mbomb007 I cna't spele
 
8:26 PM
> C++: if you understand your compiler errors, then you probably don't have enough third party libraries. Try throwing boost and a few others in there.
 
@mbomb007 I guess not.
 
Give me compiler errors any day... linker errors are the real test of sanity.
 
Talk more, I'm tired of seeing this crab
 
@feersum That is why we need JavaScript
 
Yes, so we can have runtime mistakes instead of compile errors.
 
8:31 PM
@mbomb007 Probably.
 
@feersum Oh you mean PHP?
 
@TimmyD Nah. Comments are removed from code by the compiler.
:/
 
PHP is good for bringing runtime errors to the backend.
 
Can anyone TL;DR explain me what reflection is in programming?
 
@flawr Do you know Java?
 
8:33 PM
tl;dr - Magic
 
Actually nvm, I can explain in language agnostic terms. Reflection is what allows you to make an instance of a class without knowing the name of the class at compile time.
 
another definition of reflection is a program's ability to inspect and modify itself
 
object.lookAt("mirror")
 
=>null
 
@wyldstallyns Yeah, Python has introspection.
 
8:39 PM
PowerShell has existential crises.
 
rails overdid it and killed ruby - the string class wound up with thousands of methods
taken to the extreme you have access to the whole virtual machine, like Squeak
you can accidentally change what True and 2 mean
a lisper could talk about how code is data
 
2+2=5, for sufficiently large values of 2
 
Or sufficiently small values of 5
In the grand scheme of things, 2+2=5 is a rounding error.
 
anything smaller than 2 + 2 = 10^40 is a rounding error
in nature
 
@Rainbolt yep!
 
8:42 PM
I remember in maths class we were told that when measuring angles with a protractor, we were allowed to be out by 1 in either direction. Someone put their hand up and asked if we could apply the same when doing addition.
 
> Did you know cyber warfare has been declared against your mobile device? -- Subject line of a spam I just received.
 
@trichoplax for most numbers you're only an arbitrary small percentage off the correct result
 
Let's see what spam my Yahoo! account has accumulated over the last few weeks
All pretty boring. The most interesting one of the bunch is "Open the attachment file go through it and get back to us" from Western Union
 
e^pi - pi = 20. if you get anything else, your code is bugged
 
@GabrielBenamy we all know xkcd very well, you cannot fool us!
 
8:46 PM
@flawr I suppose for most numbers that percentage is arbitrarily close to zero, but the maths teacher said no...
 
@flawr I met him a couple of times, actually. He's a pretty nice guy.
 
@GabrielBenamy really?
 
He gave me a math problem back in 2008 and I gave him the solution when I met him again 6 years later
 
@GabrielBenamy haha, what was it about?
Not about infinite grids of 1ohm resistors?
 
1 + 1sqrt(1 + 2sqrt(1 + 3sqrt(...)))
Evaluate the single positive real value of this infinite statement
He told us what the answer was - it was just a matter of proving it
 
8:50 PM
@GabrielBenamy Those "infinite nested" expressions are usually dangerous
 
that's easy to unwind to a non-recursive loop
 
CMC: what's the least powerful Turing complete machine/language possible?
 
@DJMcMayhem a turing machine
 
if it is turing complete it is of equal power to all others
 
@wyldstallyns Well finding a value is not too difficult but showign that somethign converges is another story.
 
8:52 PM
Do you guys want to know the value?
 
And in this particular case it is not quite so clear what sequence we're looking ut
@GabrielBenamy no=)
 
Mini-flak is Turing complete but definitely less powerful than brain fuck/flak since it doesn't have random access
 
JSFuck is pretty bad
 
Maybe powerful is the wrong word. Inconvenient? Difficult?
 
P'' is one of the most rudimentary
to distinguish "difficult" from "purposely obfuscating"
 
8:54 PM
JSFuck takes several thousand characters to output certain letters
 
What is P"? I've heard of it before but don't remember
 
P′′ is a primitive computer programming language created by Corrado Böhm in 1964 to describe a family of Turing machines. == Definition == P ′ ′ {\displaystyle {\mathcal {P}}^{\prime \prime }} (hereafter written P′′) is formally defined as a set of words on the four-instruction alphabet {R, λ, (, )}, as follows: === Syntax === R and λ are words in P′′. If p and q are words in P′′, then pq is a word in P′′. If q is a word in P′′, then (q)...
 
@flawr @ me if you want a hint or have the answer!
 
@GabrielBenamy Sure=) Right now I'm busy doing somethign else (that is why I'm here in TNB) but after that I'm gonna give it a try.
 
but that's not even the most basic
 
8:57 PM
Rule 110
 
nope
machine language MOV is turing complete
 
Then what?
 
because of the different argument types i'd argue one of the others mentioned is actually the more rudimentary
there are "hard to achieve the desired solution" languages like Gravity
 

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