The Nineteenth Byte

wyldstallyns

9:00 PM

or Seed

DJMcMayhem

Well the most rudimentary one I know of is mini-flak, but P" might beat it

I might ask ais523 later since they know way more about esolangs than I do

flawr

@GabrielBenamy Actually quite tricky so far.

TimmyD

@wyldstallyns That's insane. I mean, I've seen some insane stuff since joining PPCG, but that's "wow" insane.

wyldstallyns

mini-flak looks to have a stack

flawr

@GabrielBenamy Did you use power series?

wyldstallyns

9:05 PM

you might as well install ubuntu

@DJMcMayhem it's a whole thing esolangs.org/wiki/Turing_tarpit

Gabriel Benamy

@flawr Nope

at least, I don't think so

TimmyD

Ooo, closing in on my code-gold badge.

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

**Thought Experiment**: What would be a secure and effective **encryption system** if the intended recipient (Bob) has only his brain's computing power. But the attacker (Mallory) has lots of computing power. For example, a budget of $5000 to spend on Amazon EC2 instances. This is the situation:

The ciphertext is delivered securely from Alice to Bob, but it is public information. Mallory desires to read Alice's message. Alice has the oppurtunity to give Bob a key - and it's your choice what kind of key it is.

DJMcMayhem

@wyldstallyns oh yeah, of course I've heard of tarpits. I even wrote one

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

Long, but not copy-pasted. Long because I needed to be specific.

DJMcMayhem

9:11 PM

@TimmyD I'm one answer away. :)

TimmyD

984/1000 and 359/200 ... PowerShell answers tend to not get votes :-/

flawr

@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC go ask cryptography.se

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

It would be more fun in TNB...

It's for fun, not for an actual problem

flawr

@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC so what, cryptographers like fun too

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

But I know y'all :P

feersum

9:15 PM

Seems like a good job for security through obscurity.

Make up some silly ad-hoc cipher.

Or maybe you could just use RSA.

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

@feersum Aaand how is bob gonna do RSA in his head? :P

TimmyD

Write in ridiculously sloppy handwriting.

feersum

It may take a few hours to do the multiplications, but should be possible.

Geobits

Assuming he has pen/paper, why wouldn't a simple one-time pad work?

feersum

Oh, he can't use paper or pencil?

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

9:16 PM

@Geobits Because no pure randomness

feersum

@Geobits Hard to remember.

Well, how long is the message?

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

@feersum Neural Network + English detector/entropy measurer = cracked

Geobits

@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC ? That's the whole point of them

feersum

@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC No.

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

@feersum One piece of US letter paper long, front-side only.

> SE's policy has always been to treat their users like mushrooms.

feersum

9:18 PM

In characters plz

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

Hmmm...

TimmyD

I still say really sloppy handwriting.

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

Let me lorem ipsum it

@TimmyD How's bob gonna read it?

feersum

So can we confirm Bob is not allowed to use pencil or paper?

TimmyD

Humans are significantly better at reading poor handwriting than computers are.

Geobits

9:20 PM

@feersum Dunno. Sounds like it's being delivered on paper ;)

TimmyD

Encrypt it with each alphabetical character replaced with a (different) picture of an animal that starts with that character.

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

@TimmyD a) mallory can read it with her eyes too

@TimmyD Easy to crack.

TimmyD

Well, you didn't say that.

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

You want it longer?

Geobits

This is exactly the situation one time pads are used for. Just sayin.

TimmyD

9:21 PM

I was under the impression that Mallory only had computer resources, not herself as a resource.

As in, something that's easy for humans but hard for computers.

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

@TimmyD b) cs.stanford.edu/people/karpathy/convnetjs/demo/mnist.html (nope!)

flawr

@GabrielBenamy Can you give me a hint?

Geobits

@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC That shows it's possible. Not that humans aren't significantly better at it.

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

@Geobits Look at the hard-to-read ones.

TimmyD

If Mallory and Bob both have the same human processing capability, then the key given to Bob is the only difference, which comes back to a one-time pad as the solution.

Gabriel Benamy

9:25 PM

@flawr The answer is a positive integer

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

I can't recognize them. The computer had 1/3 correct, and I would too.

TimmyD

@GabrielBenamy Sweet, we've cut our search space in half!

flawr

@GabrielBenamy Well I guess the answer is 3 then, but can you give me a hint on how to get there?

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

Still the same size of search space...

TimmyD

@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC Shh.

Gabriel Benamy

9:26 PM

@flawr That is the correct answer, and that's what Randall gave us at the time.

mbomb007

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

@TimmyD typing in problem with that, wait a sec

Rainbolt

Anyone else notice how pleasant and occasionally on topic the chat has been today?

Geobits

@Rainbolt You might as well say "well, at least it can't get any worse" in a movie :P

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

> ...For example, an attacker who knows that the message contains "meet jane and me tomorrow at three thirty pm" can derive the corresponding cod... The attacker can then replace that text by any other text of exactly the same length, such as "three thirty meeting is cancelled, stay home"

mbomb007

9:28 PM

@Rainbolt It's Friday, so everybody's laid back, rather than uptight.

Gabriel Benamy

The only other hint I can reasonably give you is this: what happens if we left out the first square root and everything outside of it (so it begins 1 + 2sqrt(...))?

New Main Posts

1

Q: Kuznetsov's Sequence

Kuznetsov's Sequence (I made the name up, don't bother with Wikipedia or Google) Given any number n > 0, let r represent the reverse of the number n. Iterate until the final result is zero, passing the result of each iteration back into the function using recursion or a methodology of your cho...

mbomb007

Looking forward to the weekend. weekend.

Rainbolt

I'm putting on Hallelujah by Pentatonix, to help combat your silly music while I get back to programming at work

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

@TimmyD Also hard to remember.

New Requirement: system must be reusable

Geobits

9:32 PM

That's a heck of a moving goalpost.

Gabriel Benamy

tfw perl treats numbers with leading zeros as octal instead of decimal

quartata

That's pretty standard

Gabriel Benamy

yes, well, I don't want it to do that

feersum

In that case, how about a brain implant for Bob that decrypts the message.

It has no battery and draws energy only from potential differences in the surrounding tissue (thus using Bob's brainpower).

Geobits

Kinetic charging should count, too. Bob's brain makes him move.

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

9:37 PM

Uninteresting discussion...

feersum

Come to think of it, Bob's brain can make him operate computers too...

TimmyD

@quartata Not in PowerShell!

Gabriel Benamy

so how do I convert it back to a decimal

Geobits

@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC I've been thinking that for a while now ;)

feersum

@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC You've made it so by changing the requirements and ignoring questions.

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

9:38 PM

What questions?

Feersum solved discussion #1. Now there's discussion #2.

Geobits

Meanwhile, agents solved this problem decades ago by just using multiple one-time pads.

feersum

I "solved" it? Uh, OK, I had no idea...

Geobits

A simple way would be to use say, today's newspaper to generate the pad. By taking initials of words on page 3, or whatever. It relies on obscurity, but it also solves the memorization problem, so Bob doesn't even have to carry a pocket full of pads.

quartata

If it isn't truly random it doesn't work

Geobits

It works well enough for measly five grand on EC2

feersum

9:43 PM

Maybe you could use tricks like the one for converting a biased coin to a fair coin flip.

Geobits

Obviously truly random pads are best, but I don't know where the goalposts are anymore.

feersum

Like look for the word "and" before the word "the", or vice wersa.

wyldstallyns

otp has the drawback that discovery halts further trusted communication

the newspaper method doesn't suffer that

feersum

It's called one-time pad because it's supposed to be used once.

There is no further communication.

Geobits

@wyldstallyns For a single pad, yes. That's why you use multiple pads

wyldstallyns

9:45 PM

"padset" then

if you find my padset i'm forked

Geobits

@feersum Hmm. Is there a good way to do this for a d26? That would solve it nicely.

wyldstallyns

if you figure out my newspaper method i can fall back to a different newspaper method

Geobits

@wyldstallyns Only if you know...

Poke

@feersum when are we getting that seed description? ;);)

Gabriel Benamy

Only in Perl can you write $_=$%>$_?$%%$_:$_%$%

Geobits

9:47 PM

@GabrielBenamy There's a reason for that :P

wyldstallyns

perl is really awk++ with a kewl name

TimmyD

@GabrielBenamy You can almost do that in Powershell ...

Oct 31 at 19:10, by TimmyD

@TuxCopter @(1|%{}|?{})[@()] is valid PowerShell.

Huh. I haven't tried that on TIOv2 yet

Hmm. It's supposed to result in no output. So, I'm not sure if the no-output means it worked, or means it errored somewhere.

flawr

@GabrielBenamy I give up, I've tried to find a recurrence relation or to come up with some functional equation.

Gabriel Benamy

@flawr Let f(x) = 1 + (x-1) * sqrt(f(x+1))

flawr

10:04 PM

And then?

New Meta Posts

0

Q: What IS a duplicate?

I've seen many challenges get marked as duplicates on this stack. Most I see as fair, some, not so much. What qualifies as a duplicate question? Consider challenges where: Entries from a will be valid for b , and entries from b will be valid for a Entries from a will be valid for b , but en...

discussion

Flp.Tkc

codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/102748/kuznetsovs-sequence Is Sequence correct here? Or should it be something else?

Gabriel Benamy

@flawr It's been a while since I've done this, give me a few minutes to remember the proof

flawr

:)

mınxomaτ

Wow, Sierra really runs smooth in a VM, where El Cap was a disaster.

Probably because it's optimized for the toaster hardware of the MacBook.

Gabriel Benamy

10:08 PM

actually I have to head home

I'll think about what the proof was on the way. It's been two years since I tackled this problem!

flawr

ok=)

TimmyD

Hmm... @Dennis the TIOv2 PowerShell doesn't seem to like pipes? '2,3,1,4|sort-object' doesn't work, but 'sort-object (2,3,1,4)' does. Sorry for quotes, can't get backticks on my phone.

Dennis

Hm, at least tio.run/nexus/powershell#@2@kY6xjqGNSU5xfVKKbn5SVmlzy/z8A works just fine with the pipe.

TimmyD

Strange. I'll test again when I'm home.

Dennis

@TimmyD tio.run/nexus/powershell#FYu7CoAwDAC/… It works! \o/

New Sandboxed Posts

10:17 PM

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Palindromic quine golf, Cops cops-and-robbers This is the cops thread, the robber's thread is here. Cop's Challenge Write a palindromic program that prints its own source. This is the robber's goal: Remove byte(s) from the cop's program so that the resulting program: prints the original so...

Dennis

@TimmyD I don't know about others, but I personally never vote on answers I can't test myself. That shiny new Powershell online interpreter could help with that. </selfpromotion>

mbomb007

How long has this been there?

I just noticed it.

Qwerp-Derp

Hello

mbomb007

That, or I knew and forgot a while ago.

Hai

Dennis

The time? Since forever.

mbomb007

10:23 PM

hmm

@Qwerp-Derp I'm working on your open-ended bounty for an MC extendable prime checker

Qwerp-Derp

Whoa

I'm wondering if an MC quine is possible...

With structure blocks and all

mbomb007

Oh... mind-blown

I always wondered if it was possible with automated mining and quarries. But that's much more within the realms of possibility.

Qwerp-Derp

Hmmm... the Atomas challenge was a flop :(

Rainbolt

@Qwerp-Derp In modded minecraft?

mbomb007

@Qwerp-Derp Yeah... I might write up my strategy into a bot, but it's a lot harder to do that than to play it.

@Rainbolt No. With structure blocks.

And command blocks.

Rainbolt

10:26 PM

Is it considered a quine if the output is an exact copy of the program, but in a different location?

mbomb007

@Qwerp-Derp How would u know input from output?

@Rainbolt No. That's been tried.

Rainbolt

So the quine in minecraft has to output a copy of itself, in the exact same place?

That doesn't really make sense

mbomb007

It's probably not possible.

It's not really possible to define a "quine" in MC terms.

It's up for debate.

@Rainbolt Byte count for programs in MC is now the size of the structure file. So... you'd have to output those bytes.

Rainbolt

Oh... I don't think I realized how formalized some of this was

I assume this is a PPCG thing?

mbomb007

Not the file part. Just that we use it.

This is actually my meta question.

15

A: Programming in Minecraft (Redstone) - how to measure program size?

There is now an MC Standard for bytecount. With the 1.10 update, they introduced a block called the "structure block", which creates a .nbt file representing a structure in its entirety that can be measured in bytes. As this is a Minecraft standard for converting builds into bytes, this should b...

Qwerp-Derp

10:40 PM

@mbomb007 What do you mean

So like I was wondering if when you enter a minecraft world the program runs and generates the quine

That might work

Or maybe a lever-activated one?

mbomb007

@Qwerp-Derp The same bytes for the input have to be the bytes for the output. So if moving a structure into a different location would change the bytes (like if the nbt file contains coordinates), then it wouldn't be valid.

Qwerp-Derp

True

We could put it in "indefinite bounties" and define a quine from there for Minecraft

Or we could ask a Meta question

Also, just a curious question - is it possible to replicate Scratch in Scratch?

With the proper blocks, the drag-and-drop and all?

Rainbolt

@mbomb007 It's a quine if the bytes of the generated structure equal the bytes if the original structure? Okay, I'm pretty sure blank program satisfies that definition.

mbomb007

Idk

@Rainbolt A blank program probably doesn't generate an .nbt file.

@Qwerp-Derp It'd probably be huge.

Qwerp-Derp

@mbomb007 I'm wondering if it's even possible.

mbomb007

10:47 PM

Sure. Go look up how bytes are counted in Scratch.

35

Q: How to count bytes FAQ

We've got a lot of questions asking how to count the bytes in different situations. This question is here to put them all in one spot. General questions How to count "interactive" answers and flags How to count REPLs How to count multiple files How to count lambdas How to count whitespace How ...

discussion faq code-golf answers scoring

Rainbolt

@mbomb007 You know what I mean (but thanks for the caveat). A block of dirt as input would do absolutely nothing, remain a block of dirt, and the output nbt file would be the same.

mbomb007

@Rainbolt I don't think it qualifies

Rainbolt

How do you qualify to be a quine?

mbomb007

That's like writing a program, saving the file, and staring at the file for a few seconds, then saying "hey look, it's the same! I found a quine!"

Rainbolt

Well that's the problem with Minecraft. There's no "execute" button unless you make one up arbitrarily.

mbomb007

10:52 PM

@Rainbolt minecraft.gamepedia.com/Button

Rainbolt

Or a lever, or a pressure plate

mbomb007

Or a block update?

feersum

Maybe you should have to echo a string with the bytes of the nbt file.

Rainbolt

Ah, okay. I see what your hold up is. Take my block of dirt and put a button on it.

Now it has an execute button.

mbomb007

@feersum Yeah, that's what I said earlier.

Qwerp-Derp

10:55 PM

@feersum That's what I meant by quine

But IDK what they're doing

Gabriel Benamy

Aloha

Qwerp-Derp

@GabrielBenamy Salut

What why is chat ded

Destructible Watermelon

IDK

Gabriel Benamy

It died because I returned

I have that effect on chats

Qwerp-Derp

11:13 PM

gasp Gabriel the chat killer

New Meta Posts

3

Q: A new sandbox as the other one is 2 years old

Sandbox for Proposed Challenges That is the current sandbox. It is getting old and a lot of pages. Should a high ranking user make a new post for sandbox? The old sandbox is getting kinda clunky. With over 40 pages of posts it takes longer to load, and is getting bulky. With a new one we can exp...

discussion

Destructible Watermelon

anyway, @Qwerp-Derp are you still interested in the maze koth thing?

Qwerp-Derp

Kindanotreally

Destructible Watermelon

ok

darn

Qwerp-Derp

I can still work on it

So is anyone on?

Destructible Watermelon

11:23 PM

I am

The main reason I wasn't working on it was school

mınxomaτ

11:35 PM

feersum

But note that it won't work if the coffee isn't piping hot.

Geobits

Might as well go all out with espresso.

mınxomaτ

At least you can see the effect kicking in immediately.

Gabriel Benamy

11:51 PM

not for very long though

New Main Posts

0

Q: Basic Markdown Parser

OP: http://meta.codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/656/63187 As far as I know this has not been posted Basic Markdown Parser Write a script or function that parses Markdown. These rules must be parsed: `foo` ⇒ <code>foo</code> *foo* ⇒ foo **foo** ⇒ foo ***foo*** ⇒

code-golf

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