Ask Ubuntu General Room

Seth

3:00 AM

They'll just cancel your internet

Nathan Osman

I don't see how they'd know what was legitimate traffic and what was just "dummy" traffic.

Kaz Wolfe

Alternatively, ATT could pay MS $500mil for a CA to quietly be injected in the next Windows update...

@NathanOsman doesn't matter. log everything

I have a feeling I'll be running a lot more spiders and maybe even a Tor exit node or two.

but it won't really make much of a difference. They can isolate legitimate traffic pretty easily because where I do and what I do is pretty predictable.

Nathan Osman

Sigh.

Kaz Wolfe

Just put a filter of sorts on my traffic, I'm pretty sure machine learning can identify with decent confidence what my real traffic is.

Nathan Osman

I wonder if having an ISP's root CA sign a certificate for another domain name constitutes fraud?

I, for one, would think so.

Kaz Wolfe

3:05 AM

us government: $80 mil and it won't be.

Seth

ooh, good question.

@KazWolfe unfortunately true..

Kaz Wolfe

Law, get in here!

Nathan Osman

Lol.

They aren't probably going to be able to tell us.

In recent history, there has only ever been one sure-fire way to find out if something is legal or not - get sued for doing it.

Kaz Wolfe

i would assume it would be fraud (misrepresentation), but is it really?

they do have a right (in a weird way) to know what traffic is going through their infrastructure.

Nathan Osman

@KazWolfe I hope the judge in that case knows the necessary hashtags.

Kaz Wolfe

3:07 AM

This would only a logical expansion to allow for actual data collection in accordance with the site's privacy policy.

Android Dev

@Zacharee1 I did 20 VTC reviews today for the first time in a while :)

Kaz Wolfe

Because the user had to willingly install the CA, they've agreed and expressed consent to the ISP monitoring things, I'd think.

Nathan Osman

Repeat after me: I am not installing my IPS's root CA.

It's just not happening.

Kaz Wolfe

Repeat after me: If I do not install my ISP's root CA, I will not have internet.

Or, "My computer will install my ISP's root CA for me by way of a software update."

Android Dev

lol

Nathan Osman

3:09 AM

Sidenote: can you imagine how crazy that is anyway? Do you know how "consumer-friendly" it will be to install a root CA on an Android handset?

IoT devices? Printers?

Kaz Wolfe

We can't vote with our wallets anymore. There's nowhere else to go if what I think is about to happen will happen.

Even less with CAs. You don't think all the other ISPs will follow suit?

Nathan Osman

This is where we do need Anonymous.

Kaz Wolfe

@NathanOsman Assuming IoT is even secure.

Android Dev

And VPNs

Nathan Osman

@KazWolfe Oh lol, good point.

Android Dev

3:10 AM

And MAC randomization

Kaz Wolfe

@AndroidDev Won't help.

Nathan Osman

@AndroidDev VPNs won't help if your ISP is forcing you to install a root CA to get Internet.

Kaz Wolfe

You can identify who is browsing without even knowing where they come from, given enough data points.

Seth

@NathanOsman super easy.

Kaz Wolfe

People have their own little "signatures" as to how they browse the internet. Where they go, what they like.

Seth

3:10 AM

Install an app.

Nathan Osman

@Seth Apps can inject root CAs?

What...?

Kaz Wolfe

@NathanOsman They will be, or else Android loses the entire market share.

Nathan Osman

@Seth And what about printers?

@KazWolfe Stop making me so cynical.

:P

Android Dev

@NathanOsman But after going through the VPN, you could tether to a second device that doesn't have the rouge CA, right?

Seth

@NathanOsman Install, yes.

Serg

3:12 AM

Yay, I can haz inverted busses and anonymous nets in verilog . . . Le me iz happeh . . . but also very much behind on this goddamn lab

Kaz Wolfe

@NathanOsman I'm only pointing out probabilities.

Nathan Osman

@AndroidDev If they have a root CA, the chain of trust is broken.

Seth

I dunno what technical limitations the OS adds but it's not hard.

Nathan Osman

@Seth So I can write an app that adds my root CA to any phone it is installed on?

Seth

@NathanOsman Yep

Nathan Osman

3:13 AM

Surely there is a warning?

Seth

Not OS generated, that I could tell.

Android Dev

@Seth What the...

Kaz Wolfe

Put it this way... Apple allows installing of root CAs. I've done that for testing purposes. If Android doesn't allow that to happen, Android users are going to be told "lol sorry, you can't use your android to browse the interwebz. gtfo"

Android Dev

That can't be right

Kaz Wolfe

So, Google will have to add that feature -- they won't have a choice unless they want to lose 100% of their market share.

Android Dev

3:13 AM

/facepalm

Seth

@AndroidDev Since when did the government or mega corps care about right?

When did they care about anything other than $$$?

Kaz Wolfe

@Seth Google tries, on rare occasion.

Seth

Not since you or I have been born that's for sure.

Kaz Wolfe

To be fair, so does Apple when it's convenient.

Android Dev

@Seth Sad but true

Kaz Wolfe

3:15 AM

(To counter my own point, they only try when it makes them money and it makes them look good)

Nathan Osman

@Seth I'm tempted to use this as a wake up call. "Hey y'all folks that installed my app - guess what! I broke TLS! I know everything you did!"

But I don't think Google would be too happy.

Kaz Wolfe

@NathanOsman You get arrested for fraud and hacking.

Nathan Osman

@KazWolfe THEN WHY WOULDN'T THE ISPS?!?!

Kaz Wolfe

@NathanOsman Because they're ISPs.

Nathan Osman

IT'S THE SAME FREAKIN' THING.

Seth

3:16 AM

wat. there is a "government root certification authority" root CA on my phone

Kaz Wolfe

And have infinitely more money.

Seth

@NathanOsman lets back up to the billboard a second here...

Nathan Osman

@Seth Quick. Put on your tinfoil hat.

Kaz Wolfe

And have the lobbying power to make it legal for them to do it.

Android Dev

Seth

3:17 AM

Where is your $700,000?

Nathan Osman

@AndroidDev oh, so they fixed it?

Kaz Wolfe

Ok... I can't tell which is worse. Trump's administration saying publicly, "You don't deserve privacy because we want money," or Clinton's administration saying, "You don't get privacy, but we're not going to tell you that you don't get it. It's just going to disappear and you'll never know until Snowden 2.0."

Android Dev

Gah, stupid virtual keyboard...

Nathan Osman

@KazWolfe I actually kinda prefer Trump's because at least we still have a voice while this is going on.

Snowden 2.0, lol.

Kaz Wolfe

@NathanOsman HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

What voice do any of us have?

We can kick and scream all we want. All of the bloody US can drop into riots because of this. It won't change a damn thing.

Nathan Osman

3:20 AM

Snowden 2.0: "Guess what, the government has a quantum computer capable of fast prime factorization. In other words, we broke RSA."

That will be fun.

Kaz Wolfe

@NathanOsman Snowden 2.0: "Guess what, we at ATT have access to everything you do because we snuck a law in demanding every machine have our root CA"

Seth

@NathanOsman honestly wouldn't be surprised.

Android Dev

@NathanOsman @KazWolfe And then there's the whole thing about Obama handing over DNS...

Nathan Osman

@Seth Is the government smart enough for that though? We can't even get people back to the moon.

@AndroidDev ICANN?

Kaz Wolfe

@NathanOsman Private sector contractors.

All the government needs to be able to know is how to push a button.

Nathan Osman

3:22 AM

@KazWolfe Can people stab their conscience that badly? Thinks for a moment. Hmm, never mind then.

Kaz Wolfe

@AndroidDev SOPA and PIPA should be tarred and feathered.

Android Dev

@NathanOsman Yeah

Nathan Osman

Those acronyms are lame BTW.

Kaz Wolfe

@NathanOsman I worked a bit at Northrop Grumman. It's very very need-to-know. You might not even be told you're working on a government project.

Just "here's a project, do it"

Seth

Every time Trump tweets, this bot prints it out and burns it. 🖨🔥 https://twitter.com/burnedyourtweet/status/846858076800077824

Tweeted by goldengateblond on March 29, 2017 at 1:43 AM

4

Nathan Osman

3:23 AM

@KazWolfe "Here, make a quantum computer to factor prime numbers. For no reason, of course."

4

Android Dev

There's Prime95 too, though...

Kaz Wolfe

@NathanOsman No... "Here, make a quantum computer with <specs> for research and development and the advancement of tech"

Nathan Osman

@Seth What. The. Actual. Heck.

Seth

ikr

Kaz Wolfe

@Seth 10/10

The problem is there are so many ways to destroy the internet and privacy for profit, and there's nothing we can do to defend against it.

I mean, even my current employer is doing some things that I consider very scary and immoral, but I don't have the ability to really raise objections (except to quit) because nobody will listen. It can make them too much money to give up just because one of their developers has concerns about privacy.

Nathan Osman

3:30 AM

It's because people don't have the Libertarian mindset.

You know the saying, "absolute power corrupts absolutely".

Well, the best (and in fact only) way to mitigate that is to reduce the amount of power as much as possible.

Kaz Wolfe

Well, that requires the people who have power to willingly give up power.

I think it's more likely that world peace happens two weeks ago.

Nathan Osman

@KazWolfe Or the people to wake up.

But I'm not holding my breath.

The last time this happened, the war of independence occurred.

Kaz Wolfe

It's why the US is stuck with the electoral college. Nobody in power is going to do anything about it, because it's what got them into power.

@NathanOsman How can you incite a revolution against the country with the best military on the face of the earth?

Nathan Osman

It's a mind game.

You have to play it as such.

Kaz Wolfe

See, that's the problem. And this is going to get me on 40 watchlists and probably bring the FBI to my door.

Nobody responds to peaceful protests and mindgames. They just don't work.

They're a nice PR stunt, but do they ever change anything?

Android Dev

3:34 AM

@KazWolfe As if you're not already on 15 for using Linux and not having Facebook? :)

Nathan Osman

This ---^

Kaz Wolfe

yeah, pretty much. I've stopped really covering my tracks. It's just too much work at this point.

As much as I hate saying this, people will only respond to violence, or everyone's last resort.

People aren't rational.

Nathan Osman

My opinion is thus: the government can and will track whom it wants. But due to the sheer size of the population, just doing simple steps will make you less of a problem. They will pick on easier targets.

@KazWolfe People are stupid.

The end.

Kaz Wolfe

@NathanOsman Machine learning, and algorithms allow far more people to be recorded thoroughly, and can raise alerts to human operators whenever necessary.

They watch every target they can, but only actively look as those marked as "interesting"

Nathan Osman

Hmm... I can't argue with that.

I guess the only way to combat that would be to dump a ton of useless data into the system, poisoning it. No idea how one would go about doing that though.

Kaz Wolfe

3:39 AM

Machine learning. It's easy to pick useless data out of ordered data.

If all of a sudden, a whole bunch of garbage gets thrown into the system, that garbage can just be disposed as exactly that, garbage.

You can mask yourself by hiding your own real traffic against other real traffic that mirrors yours (e.g. people who use tor are usually grouped together with like-minded people), but you can still isolate certain people given enough of a dataset.

If I start "visiting" Wayfair or some other site I never use often, it's gonna get discarded. It doesn't fit my profile. Something looks off with that data.

Seth

@KazWolfe same way it happened last time. Britain was the best military power on the earth at the time.

Unfortunately modern technology makes it practically impossible today..\

Kaz Wolfe

exactly... plus, there's a scale and training factor.

A vast majority of the people probably knew how to use (and owned) weaponry. Very few people do now. Those who do can probably get crushed within a month, at worst.

Now if the military joined a theoretical revolt, then there's a chance.

Seth

and the militia. Still have some of that.

Kaz Wolfe

tl;dr: we're boned.

Seth

or. start small. implement STV voting at a local level. It'll grow.

Kaz Wolfe

3:45 AM

@Seth This just in: STV banned!

Nathan Osman

ಠ_ಠ

Kaz Wolfe

actually, no... there is a surface now. nobody knows cybersecurity.

Seth

puts your faith in a new perspective.

Kaz Wolfe

Cybersecurity professionals are being sniped up everywhere across the board. Private, public, anywhere.

Seth

well, new for the western man.

Nathan Osman

3:47 AM

Oh hang on.

Kaz Wolfe

point being, a bunch of smart hackers can do a lot of damage.

We're already effectively in a cyber-war on a few fronts.

I have a feeling the next 15-20 years are going to be very interesting.

Nathan Osman

There we go.

Kaz Wolfe

that is an abuse of mod powers

600 away from 20k. this is awesome.

WinEunuuchs2Unix

Yup and you have that 500 point bounty between you and user with 161 points

night all :)

Nathan Osman

@KazWolfe What is?

Kaz Wolfe

4:04 AM

@NathanOsman editing after 2m mark

Nathan Osman

@KazWolfe I don't even know what the limit is for normal users.

So how am I supposed to know when I exceeded it?

And @ThomasWard just arrived.

You missed a good conversation.

Thomas Ward

Not really caring at this second - insomnia

actually didn't open here it just reopened and refreshed because phone Safari is evil

closes chat

Nathan Osman

Ah.

Kaz Wolfe

4:24 AM

hi thomas

Might I make another suggestion, @NathanOsman?

Nathan Osman

Sure... why not...

Kaz Wolfe

Right now you're showing the icon if a user hasn't viewed the tour. Instead, why not show when the user has? That way, reputable users can get away with not having the icon a bit easier.

but the script is awesome so far. thanks! :D

Nathan Osman

4:55 AM

@KazWolfe "get away with" ?

You mean avoid sending an HTTP request?

Kaz Wolfe

@NathanOsman this way, if a user that should have the badge doesn't (high rep, multiple pages), the appearance doesn't change.

Nathan Osman

@KazWolfe Ah.

Okay, I'll have to write a rep. parsing routine though since the pages display such things as "4.2K", which can't be parsed as an integer.

Kaz Wolfe

don't worry about it if it's a big deal.

Nathan Osman

Meh, it's a challenge :D

Might not get to it until tomorrow though.

Kaz Wolfe

the script works great as-is, and is already being useful. it would just be nice to move cases around so that it's more accurate

Nathan Osman

4:58 AM

And more efficient.

SmokeDetector

5:19 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of body: How can I install kali Linux and windows on the same computer? by Cristi on askubuntu.com

Nathan Osman

Lol, Kali has been removed from the title.

But not the question body...

Kaz Wolfe

Nobody tell him.

Nathan Osman

I changed the title.Thanks! — Cristi 4 mins ago

@KazWolfe ...and surprise, surprise, they haven't done the intro.

:P

Kaz Wolfe

yep, i see that! :D

Kaz Wolfe

5:49 AM

hmm... sff.se needs a hard question.

Kaz Wolfe

7:13 AM

hey @seth, yet another dupe

WOT IN TARNATION

Nathan Osman

7:40 AM

Looooool.

Zanna

ouch

Nathan Osman

@KazWolfe I hope that wasn't because of the script...

cl-netbox

Hello :)

Jacob Vlijm

8:38 AM

Would you people please slow down on shooting at spam. I get no chance to hit one before it is killed :)

Zanna

it's smokey!

I can't get any either

Jacob Vlijm

@Zanna smokey recognizes, but does it shoot as well?

Zanna

yeah it adds 3 spam flags now, it got souped up

Jacob Vlijm

bad, bad...

We need a feature request :)

Zanna

hahaha you can still get the odd flag in in if you are really fast, or when smokey is unsure

Journeyman Geek

8:49 AM

@Zanna I've gotten maybe 2-3 spammers since smokey went up to 11.

Zanna

o.O

it's not good

Serg

9:02 AM

@Zanna Hi ! So . . . let's see what's not working

By the way, script produces no output, because there's no print() function there, i.e. it's basically silent script

cl-netbox

Hi @JacobVlijm @JourneymanGeek @Serg @Zanna Good morning ! :)

Serg

@cl-netbox morning

Jacob Vlijm

Hey @cl-netbox!

cl-netbox

@Zanna Just run sudo apt dist-upgrade and reboot ... then you are running kernel 4.10 ! :)

@Serg How are you doing ? :)

Serg

@cl-netbox I'm fine. About to go to bed after I help Zanna troubleshoot my script. Have work today and then lecture. How about you

cl-netbox

9:07 AM

@JacobVlijm Everything good ? :)

Jacob Vlijm

@cl-netbox absolutely. terribly busy on the music part currently. Little time for scripting :)

cl-netbox

@Serg Well, I'm fine as well ... although a bit sad that my latest answer didn't get much attention ... was some work to get it done. :)

Zanna

@Serg lol sorry for being stupid

Serg

@Zanna No worries ;) I should have explained the usage in my answer a bit in a rush. I pasted a bit in haste, since you have beaten me with prename command there ( I was about to post the same answer , but quickly switched to python)

Zanna

@cl-netbox I can't, I don't have space (or RAM) for a VM, so just testing in live mode

cl-netbox

9:10 AM

@JacobVlijm music is a great thing ... brings many positive aspects to people ... and it should make as much fun to work on it as scripting - right ? :)

Zanna

haha sorry about that too

Serg

@Zanna are you using laptop ?

Zanna

yeah

cl-netbox

@Zanna ah okay ... just download the latest daily then -> cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-live/current/zesty-desktop-amd64.iso ! :)

Serg

@Zanna If you have DVD drive, you could get one of these: amazon.com/ORICO-Aluminum-Lenovo-Laptop-L127SS/dp/B00KBON2BO/… That's how I have main SSD and bigger HDD where I store all my VMs and backups from phone

Zanna

9:12 AM

no DVD drive :(

Jacob Vlijm

@cl-netbox Yeah, be it in a totally different way :)

Serg

Anyway, on this jolly note, I should go to bed. I made the rookie mistake of getting excited about this renamer question, and look - it's 3:12 AM now

cl-netbox

@Serg sleep well my friend ! :)

Zanna

this thing has 32GB eMMC, 2GB RAM, no ethernet port, 2 USB ports, one micro SD slot, HDMI, headphones jack (but no audio drivers) and that's it

sleep well @Serg :)

cl-netbox

@Zanna then forget about VMs ... hahaha :)

Zanna

9:14 AM

yeah XD

anyway the 4.8 kernels are not working for me after 4.8.0-32 so I'm going to install 17.04 as soon as it's released, no matter what

cl-netbox

@Zanna I give my VMs 8 GB RAM and 4 cores ... they run as if it was bare metal ... fast as lightning ... hahaha

Zanna

this machine is basically a large phone with a keyboard...

cl-netbox

@Zanna you can do it now ... zesty beta is completely stable

Zanna

my phone actually cost twice as much :)

hmm maybe I should

@cl-netbox luxury!

cl-netbox

@Zanna still another 8 GB and 4 cores left for host ! :D

Zanna

9:18 AM

At least I have quad core

it's actually really fast

even with eMMC instead of real SSD

My boot time is ~7 seconds

cl-netbox

WOW that's great

@Zanna yes do it ... many improvements under the hood :)

Zanna

bbl :)

cl-netbox

see you :)

James

Happy Birthday to Marco Ceppi, one of our early users and mods

14

cl-netbox

@JacobVlijm which instruments are you playing ? bass ? drums ? guitars ? keyboards ?

James

9:22 AM

I'll grab a screenshot and send it to him, let him know he is missed and should come here more often. ;)

(Or don't, up to you!)

cl-netbox

Hi @James ! :)

James

Hi!

Ubuntu Questions on U&L

10:12 AM

0

Q: Chromium's depot tools won't work

I am really new to linux but I need Chromium's depot tools to download WebRTC's source code. Anyway, I have been trying to download it by following the instructions on their website: http://dev.chromium.org/developers/how-tos/install-depot-tools However, it always gives me an error on the command...

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted website in answer: Dell Inspiron 3542 b40 i5 8gb ram 1TBHD not shutting off by nikoll on askubuntu.com

Hizqeel

askubuntu.com/a/898044/529390 Spam

Jacob Vlijm

@cl-netbox Only guitar. Classical guitar (although that is more a technical significance than a musical/style).

cl-netbox

@JacobVlijm only ??? well, classical guitar is extremely difficult to play ... hats off (once again) ! :)

Jacob Vlijm

10:28 AM

haha, well, anything in life is difficult. The trick is how to learn that it is easy.

terdon

@cl-netbox Not really. The guitar is one of the easiest instruments out there. Anything with frets is "easy". Of course, no instrument is actually easy, but the guitar is far easier than the celo or the violin etc.

Jacob Vlijm

@terdon Not true I think

terdon

@JacobVlijm No? Why not? Having played both guitar and violin I can assure you guitar was far, far easier to learn.

Jacob Vlijm

why?

Strings only play 1 tone at a time, while we need to play polyphonic stuff

terdon

Because you have an area of up to ~2-3 cm within which the tone is correct. On fretless instruments, a mistake of a millimeter changes the note you play.

Jacob Vlijm

10:30 AM

@terdon If you look at a good player, the finger is positioned always exactly in the same position within the area

terdon

@JacobVlijm Not necessarily, the violin can also use two strings at a time. And so can any string instrument if you pick instead of strum. But also consider things like the lute.

@JacobVlijm Sure. But you don't need to do that in order to learn.

Jacob Vlijm

...No, but you will either use 5x the necessary pressure, or get aweful cracks

terdon

And you can move a bit, for example to bring up the pinky and place it 5 frets down. That will easily cause your index finger to move a few mm and that's not an issue with fretted instruments.

@JacobVlijm ?

cl-netbox

@terdon depends ... I think every instrument is difficult to learn, especially when you want to become a professional ... this level needs more than talent and climbing to the next level is hard, be it guitars, drums, violins or whatever. :)

terdon

Of course. As I said, no instrument is easy. But some instruments are easier to learn than others. Mastering any instrument is very hard.

Jacob Vlijm

10:33 AM

@terdon polyfonic stuff on strings is ... very simple, compared to guitar.

terdon

But give a child a piano and then give it a violin and tell me which one was more unpleasant.

Jacob Vlijm

to hear or to play? :)

cl-netbox

@terdon That's a point ! :)

terdon

@JacobVlijm Why? Depends on what you're doing. I've seen base players play ridiculously complex polyphonic stuff on an upright base, for example.

And middle eastern fretless instruments are played much the same way as the guitar.

cl-netbox

@terdon base ? do you mean bass players ? :)

terdon

10:35 AM

@JacobVlijm To hear. Believe me, my neighbors were very happy when I switched to the guitar and stopped practicing the violin :)

@cl-netbox Yes.

Jacob Vlijm

We did a test once, after two minutes, I can play the cello completely in tune (that is: plucked)

cl-netbox

@terdon Stanley Clarke ... :)

terdon

@JacobVlijm Of course you can! And I could do so with the violin when I played it. It's just harder to learn.

@cl-netbox For example.

Jacob Vlijm

...Also tone quality is extremely difficult on guitar. (although many guitarists only have one dimension, bad players)

terdon

As I said, mastering any instrument is hard. But I don't think you can argue that getting to the point where playing is not painful to your audience is easier on the guitar or the piano or any other non-chromatic instrument.

cl-netbox

10:38 AM

@terdon which model do you prefer ? Gibson or Fender or something else ?

terdon

And yes, I know you can bend the strings so the guitar isn't really non-chromatic, but you get what I mean, I hope.

@cl-netbox Electric? I own a beautiful Gretsch. If I were to go to a solid body, probably a gibson.

Ideally, an SG with Les Paul magnets. sigh

Jacob Vlijm

@terdon On the guitar, that should be easy, because most beginners play so soft, they won't hurt :)

terdon

@JacobVlijm Not so for the violin. let alone the sax.

Jacob Vlijm

^ true! just for fun, I bought a 5 string banjo when I was 16. Not good for your neighbours.

terdon

I can teach someone to play do re mi in a few minutes on the guitar (OK, their fingers will hurt but they should be able to do it) and seconds on the piano. On a fretless instrument though, even that first step is very hard.

cl-netbox

10:40 AM

@terdon Gretsch ... wow - great axe ... I like Gibson Explorer / Les Paul / Firebird and Gibson Thunderbird bass guitar most ! :)

terdon

Oh, I don't like the explorer at all. Too "metal" for me :P

cl-netbox

hahaha

terdon

I'm into blues and jazz stuff so the gretsch is perfect for me.

cl-netbox

@terdon SG doesn't have that fat sound of original Les Paul ... imho :)

terdon

3 mins ago, by terdon

Ideally, an SG with Les Paul magnets. sigh

with Les Paul magnets

cl-netbox

10:43 AM

@terdon yes ... it is a great guitar - really :)

Jacob Vlijm

This is my guitar.(maker). A good friend of mine. ottovowinkel.com

cl-netbox

@JacobVlijm cool :)

@terdon yes those Humbucker pickups are great ! :)

terdon

@cl-netbox Do you play the guitar?

cl-netbox

@terdon no unfortunately not ... but I was a singer in some local metal bands some longer time ago ... also I played a little bit drums (not good enough though) ... but I really admire good guitar players. :)

terdon

OK. I was asking since you seem to know your way around guitars.

cl-netbox

10:50 AM

@terdon yes I know a lot about them ... used to hang around in music stores that time ... :)

@terdon These old models are of great quality - they still rule the music world - right ? :)

terdon

Yep.

I have a beautiful classical guitar made by "Panagis brothers" famous Greek luthiers of the 30ies-40ies (I think). It used to belong to my half-sister's grandmother and must be more than 50 years old now. Still the most beautiful instrument I've ever played. The only one I could compare it to was an Alhambra I tried in Spain.

cl-netbox

@terdon wow ... very very nice ! :)

Jacob Vlijm

@terdon Alhambra is bad, but those old ones are interesting! Spruce or cedar?

terdon

@JacobVlijm Bad? Seriously? Why bad? And I don't remember the wood I'm afraid.

Jacob Vlijm

@terdon For a guitarmaker, tone distinction and volume always are clashing demands. Either you have to be good to combine the two (as a maker) or you simply skip one of them. Alhambra totally skips distiction and projection, in favour of volume.

If you play in a bigger hall, the sound drops dead on the floor in front of you.

terdon

11:01 AM

Wow. OK.

Jacob Vlijm

Is the top red (-ish) or yellow/white -ish?

terdon

yellow/white-ish.

Actually, the wood is almost certainly the same as this one: classicalguitars.gr/en/care_16

Mine has pretty much the same body and saddle but different rosette and no pick guard.

So yeah, no, red not white. I admit I haven't looked at it for a while. I play acoustic and aren't very comfortable on classical so I don't use the poor thing anywhere near as often as it deserves.

I had actually lent it to a friend of mine for a few years since he plays classical and I wanted it to be used. Sadly, we no longer live in the same country so I had to take it back.

Jacob Vlijm

Spruce, definitely spruce! the better quality top. Extremely interesting. While cedar dies away after 30 years or so, spruce only gets better in general. I see the name Panagis mentioned often, but this is the first photo I see. Probaly a beautifully singing instrument. Do you know the mensura by any chance? default = 65 on modern instruments, but the old ones sometimes are bigger.

Take good care of it, or I will go steal it from you. @terdon

terdon

I am now. I didn't as a young kid. It is now stored in a closet at room temperature with the strings loosened. Is that good enough?

David Foerster

Cheers @all!

I'd be happy about some input on Host CFLAGS for cross-build of GCC in case anybody has an idea.

Jacob Vlijm

11:15 AM

@terdon Yeah, the most important is that humidity should not be too low.

terdon

@JacobVlijm It shouldn't be. It's a normal, heated room at my parent's place.

Not a dusty basement or anything.

Jacob Vlijm

@terdon should be fine.

terdon

Cool. And I'm right that having the strings loose is good, correct?

Jacob Vlijm

@terdon well, leaving it on won't hurt, as long as the temperature isn't too high.

terdon

@JacobVlijm They're on, but loosened. I had read somewhere that you don't want to store a guitar with the strings tightened to their normal level since that puts strain on the neck. And you also don't want to remove them completely because you need a little tension to keep the shape. I had understood that the best thing to do is leave the strings there, but relatively loose. Not completely loose, but not tight either.

Jacob Vlijm

11:21 AM

I have no scientific explanation for it, but instruments also get stiff (sound) when not played for a long time. Similarly, the same guitars, in the hands of players with a good sound, become better sounding ones over time. In the beginning, I thought it was crap, but it isn't.
Well yes, leaving them on is all right, but guitars should be able to stand normal tension for many years.

terdon

OK, thanks.

Jacob Vlijm

12:18 PM

^ you smoke too much.