The Frying Pan

Faheem Mitha

12:31 AM

@ElendilTheTall Hey. Thanks for replying. I was asleep; woke up a little while ago.

@ElendilTheTall How do pork chops and loin steaks differ?

Or tenderloin/fillet, that is? Time for Google, perhaps.

I was able to find entries in WP for pork chops and pork tenderloin, but not specifically for loin steak.

Faheem Mitha

12:55 AM

Can you elaborate on what loin steak is, and how it differs from the other two?

Jolenealaska

2:40 AM

The loin is a primal cut:

The loin and tenderloin are the leanest cut of pork, the tenderloin has about the same amount of fat as chicken breast.

Sliced, the loin becomes "loin chops".

Personally, my favorite cut is the shoulder (oddly called butt in the US), but butt (haha) is much fattier than loin. I find loin and tenderloin a bit dry.

google.com/…

Faheem Mitha

@Jolenealaska That's very comprehensive, thanks.

Jolenealaska

You're very welcome.

Faheem Mitha

@Jolenealaska I don't recognize the "primal cut" terminology.

Jolenealaska

It means the big cuts that smaller cuts are made of.

Faheem Mitha

@Jolenealaska Oh. So the loin and the tenderloin are from the side of the pig? The flank, so to speak?

Jolenealaska

2:52 AM

"Canadian bacon" is loin.

@FaheemMitha Almost. Look closely at the second picure.

It's more the "back" than the side.

Faheem Mitha

@Jolenealaska If you say so. It's not that clear from the image.

So, up a bit, in other words.

Jolenealaska

The tenderloin isn't a part of the loin, but right next to it.

Faheem Mitha

@Jolenealaska ok

Jolenealaska

Tenderloin is often sold as a roast, loin is more often sold as chops (steaks).

Faheem Mitha

@Jolenealaska Ok. I'll print out your diagram, I guess. Hopefully the shop people will know what is what. Thanks.

Jolenealaska

2:58 AM

Commonly, chops are sold mixed. That's a terrible way to buy them because different types of chops are best cooked differently.

Faheem Mitha

Is there a lot of difference between the loin and the tenderloin?

And is a pork chop usually very fatty then?

Jolenealaska

Yes. The tenderloin is even leaner than the loin. It's also much smaller.

Faheem Mitha

@Jolenealaska Oh. Hmm. Probably more expensive too.

Jolenealaska

It depends on the primal cut. Loin should have a perimeter of fat, but the interior should be lean.

Yes, tenderloin is more expensive, but not astronomically so.

Faheem Mitha

From the diagram, it looks like full loin and pork loin are different.

The diagram printed well.

Jolenealaska

3:02 AM

"Pork loin" means loin, tenderloin is different.

Faheem Mitha

@Jolenealaska and full loin?

Jolenealaska

The most expensive cut of beef is also called tenderloin, or fillet if cut into steaks.

"Full loin" just means that it hasn't been cut into smaller pieces.

Faheem Mitha

@Jolenealaska Oh. Ok.

Thanks for the education. Time to go back to sleep, I think.

Jolenealaska

Your butcher should have every primal cut plus smaller pieces of each.

CYA!

Faheem Mitha

@Jolenealaska Take care.

Jolenealaska

3:12 AM

Different countries cut meat differently, I've been speaking of cuts found in the US.

@CrazyNinja That sounds like something I'd do!

Jolenealaska

4:23 AM

Dragon rocks!!

Jolenealaska

4:51 AM

Up until now I've only said what the tutorial told me to say.

Jolenealaska

5:01 AM

what the flying fuck now

LOL!

It does not appear to handle Shakespeare well :)

My big monolog from Othello makes very little sense :)

Jolenealaska

6:29 AM

Microphone on one that optimal with the shoulder. The docks of months has tested to the end by the Debbie being in speech to quarter but for chewing engendered is the fuel and the present with us what the product but are talked about the crop

It's not very good at Middle English either!

Mark Bird and his producer were waiting for us at the office the producer gasped when Brenda walked through the door how did it go she asked her attention caught on Brenda's hair the bounty Hunter thing is getting harder than I thought I ladies room there is the powder room straight back,"

That's almost legible!

I need to get used to saying punctuation.

It's not hard, just weird.

Jolenealaska

6:45 AM

Mark Bird and his producer were waiting for us at the office. The producer gasped when Brenda walked through the door. "How did it go?", she asked, her attention caught on Brenda's hair. "This bounty Hunter thing is getting harder than I thought."

Getting there

Damn thing took three hours to download over DSL.

It's a steep learning curve, but relatively intuitive.

It's definitely a better typist than I am.

ElendilTheTall

7:56 AM

This is just crazy:wcnc.com/story/news/local/2015/05/26/…

What has happened to everyone's sense of humour? The world needs to chill the fuck out.

Jolenealaska

FFS

A felony.

Any minute now the final episode of the Chopped All-Stars Tourney will be available an Amazon. Go Anne!!

I was rooting for Madison, but he was eliminated in the entree round of the first episode.

Go Anne!

There was an all Brit episode of Chopped a couple of years ago.

I had never heard of bubble and squeak. That was also my first glimpse of a spotted dick.

In Iowa a driver can get a ticket for allowing a child to sit in the front seat. It's up until 16 I think. The same age that he or she can get a drivers license.

It's a wonder any of my peers survived.

Crazy Ninja

8:19 AM

Hi everyone!

Jolenealaska

The winner of tonight's Chopped wins $75K to their pet charity.

Hey Jude!

Crazy Ninja

@Jolenealaska how is your health? Hope you are better

Jolenealaska

I am fine. I went a little nuts for a while, but that always happens this time of year.

The sunlight thing here is very extreme.

Crazy Ninja

what does actually matters is 'I am fine. '

^_^

Jolenealaska

I am fine :)

I'm even sleeping most nights!

Crazy Ninja

8:23 AM

hey, would you be able to find out a good image which i asked you yesterday.... ?

Jolenealaska

I haven't actually looked... Do you know the term "selfie"?

Crazy Ninja

yes. people take a photo of themselves using mobile phones

Jolenealaska

appamatix.com/327-good-selfie-quotes-funny-captions

I assume from your telling of the story that the photo wasn't a selfie, but the funny/embarrassing stuff applies.

I changed all my passwords to Incorrect HA!~

Crazy Ninja

of course... it was a video of my friend's girl friend ----- totally nude one :P

Jolenealaska

Trying clothes on, do you like it?

I’ll do me

What do you think of the view?

Crazy Ninja

8:29 AM

what do you mean? I don't get what you are talking about

Jolenealaska

They are captions, not images.

Like this:

Crazy Ninja

ahh yes. I want something like this.. (caption)

Jolenealaska

memegenerator.net

Crazy Ninja

looks like many are there.... wanna swim in it to grab the one that i'm looking for

Jolenealaska

Nope! :)

You've seen the video, you know your friend!

me? not so much

Crazy Ninja

8:39 AM

whatever...

Jolenealaska

I just mean that you are much more qualified than me to pick a caption.

I'm at a loss for images, but the internet isn't big enough for all the memes.

Crazy Ninja

hmm.. but the one you just showed me, might have a suitable one for me

Jolenealaska

The link I posted just does the artwork. Writing the caption(s) is up to you.

Crazy Ninja

hmm... so can you just give me a help to build really hilarious one ?

Jolenealaska

I really think I've done all I can. You know your friend, I don't.

Besides, you don't want it to sound like me, you want it to sound like you.

Crazy Ninja

8:45 AM

umm.. yes. you are correct. i'll try to built a one

thanks for the memegenerator link.. appreciate that help :D

Jolenealaska

I doubt you will find it hard, it's just cracking a joke.

And the subject is already funny.

Crazy Ninja

yeap. totally

Jolenealaska

9:02 AM

Hmmm...American curry powder (not masala, but that weird American stuff) coating (really, really coating) a rare duck breast over a giant, piped, phallic looking sweet potato mash. Hmmmm... I don't think I'd like that.

ElendilTheTall

9:15 AM

@jolenealaska who's offering?

Jolenealaska

That is Anne's foil on Worst Cooks in America (which is not nearly as bad as it sounds). Robert Ervine

Anne Burrell. She's a Food Network regular I really like.

A lot of people who like cooking shows don't like her, but I always have.

She has a few shows and she's a sous chef to Iron Chef Mario Batali.

She has been on Chopped every season, and she hasn't won yet.

You know Ervine, right?

Even though he's a Brit, he does an American version of Gordon Ramsey's restaurant saving show.

From Worst Cooks..."Why would anybody even invent a pan that isn't non-stick?"

There is a non-chef winner, kind of a "most improved" award, but the big competition is between the celebrity chefs as mentors.

The problem is that a few times it has been obvious that one of the contestants cheated. They already knew how to cook.

But they get eliminated.

They never come out and say that the contestant is cheating...but...If someone claims to have no clue but within 5 minutes are going through tasting spoons like crazy... she's lying.

ElendilTheTall

9:37 AM

Never heard of Ervine, no

Jolenealaska

That surprises me. I don't know long he has been on the American scene, but he's definitely from your neck of the woods.

ElendilTheTall

There are 65 million people in my neck of the woods...

Jolenealaska

He had a scandal of some kind a few years ago and almost didn't reappear. Something about padding his resume or something.

Sure, but he's a pretty big celebrity chef name.

It may be that he's just been here longer than I thought.

ElendilTheTall

Not big enough to have made it back over here I'm afraid

Jolenealaska

That reminds me, I'm digging Jamie Oliver.

Yay YouTube!

ElendilTheTall

9:43 AM

Yeah I like him. I've never made a recipe of his I didn't like

Jolenealaska

And he is charming!

ElendilTheTall

And his recipes are always well balanced, tasty and pretty simple

Jolenealaska

Paul Hollywood too.

That grating frozen butter thing is just ingenious.

ElendilTheTall

Yup, he knows his stuff

Jolenealaska

I enjoyed all of the judges on The British Baking Show thing, but I didn't know the other two.

ElendilTheTall

9:46 AM

His blueberry muffin recipe is the best

There's only one other judge

2 presenters, 2 judges

Mary Berry is the other judge

Jolenealaska

You've mentioned that before. There was Hollywood and two women.

She's the dark haired one, right?

OK, I thought she was a judge, but apparently not.

ElendilTheTall

No, she's the old lady

The dark haired one is Sue Perkins

Jolenealaska

Gotcha.

Sue Perkins is the one I was thinking of.

I got a kick out of, "Baaaaaayeeke"

ElendilTheTall

Loo

Jolenealaska

And I will never forget the moment that I realized they were making filo for Baklava.

They had like 2 hours!

ElendilTheTall

9:56 AM

I know... Far too lenient

Jolenealaska

:)

ElendilTheTall

Who can't knock together filo in 2 hours?

Jolenealaska

I didn't even know you could make filo. I thought it was like Panko - don't even try.

That's what freezer sections are for.

The 2 hours included the Baklava! It would take me longer than that to choose a recipe.

jamieoliver.com/recipes/recipe/mixed-nut-honey-baklava/…

Alton Brown did a really good Good Eats about baklava too.

I followed along with him the first time I made it.

I made quite a bit of headway learning Dragon today.

I should be using it right now, but I've had enough for one day.

MBE is like a junior knight, right?

I just noticed that Jamie Oliver has the title.

ElendilTheTall

10:11 AM

no, it's not a knighthood

Member of the Order of the British Empire

Jolenealaska

Is it bestowed, or born into?

ElendilTheTall

bestowed

only ranks of nobility are hereditary

Knighthoods aren't

nor are MBEs etc

Jolenealaska

Americans enjoy giving Sir Patrick Stewart flack :)

ElendilTheTall

do they? why?

Jolenealaska

Have you seen Brent Spiner imitate him? Just because it befuddles us :) Honorary Doctorate, OK, but kneeling in front of the Queen thing is just bizarre.

ElendilTheTall

10:16 AM

Yes, I've seen it. Uncanny.

Personally I would refuse one if I was offered it

Jolenealaska

Do you have any idea how often that has happened?

ElendilTheTall

Declining a British honour

The following is a partial list of people who have declined a British honour, such as a knighthood or another grade of honour. In recent times most refusals have been for appointment to the Order of the British Empire. In most cases, the offer of an honour was rejected privately; others were rejected publicly, or accepted and then returned later based upon future events, as with John Lennon and Rabindranath Tagore. Nowadays, potential recipients are contacted by government officials, well before any public announcement is made, to confirm in writing whether they wish to be put forward for an honour...

quite a lot

Jolenealaska

I see.

ElendilTheTall

However, as I am an ornery old git I am unlikely to do anything 'worthy' of one anyway

Jolenealaska

I'm a bit lost on Prince Charles declining a barony in 1999.

ElendilTheTall

10:23 AM

> As a part of the House of Lords reform in 1999, relevant members of the Royal Family were offered Life Peerages, which would have given them the automatic right to sit in the House of Lords, but all declined

he has enough titles as it is anyway

> His Royal Highness Prince Charles Philip Arthur George, Prince of Wales, Royal Knight Companion of the Most Noble Order of the Garter, Extra Knight of the Most Ancient and Most Noble Order of the Thistle, Grand Master and Principal Knight Grand Cross of the Most Honourable Order of the Bath, Member of the Order of Merit, Knight of the Order of Australia, Companion of the Queen's Service Order

> Member of Her Majesty's Most Honourable Privy Council, Aide-de-Camp, Earl of Chester, Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Earl of Carrick, Baron of Renfrew, Lord of the Isles, Prince and Great Steward of Scotland.

Jolenealaska

Is being in the House of Lords too much like a real job?

Noble Order of the Thistle!

ElendilTheTall

@Jolenealaska no, but it gives you a vote with regards to legislature

Jolenealaska

Charles is an artichoke!

ElendilTheTall

those are just his British titles

> Manitoba
2001 –: Leading Star[5]

> Nunavut
2001 –:
In Inuktitut: Attaniout Ikeneego
In English: The Son of the Big Boss (loosely translates to heir apparent)

> Tanzania
2011 –:
In Maasai: Oloishiru Ingishi
In English: The Helper of the Cows (literally he whom the cows love so much they call for him when they are in times of distress)

Jolenealaska

How old do you suppose you'd have to be to realize that your life isn't normal?

ElendilTheTall

10:27 AM

He's also a Marshal of the Royal Air Force, a Fleet Admiral in the Royal Navy, and a Field Marshal in the Army

Fun Fact: the Army isn't called the 'Royal Army' because it was established in the interregnum (the gap between Charles I and Charles II when England was essentially a republic)

Jolenealaska

I wondered about that with the princes. Wouldn't it be a big time security issue if they got captured or something?

Are they sharing barracks?

ElendilTheTall

No. Harry isn't in the Army any more (AFAIK) and William flies an air ambulance in Norfolk

Jolenealaska

But he was.

Harry, I guess, not William.

ElendilTheTall

oh, I tell a lie

he is still in the Army, the Air Corps (he flies Apaches)

Jolenealaska

And flying an Air Ambulance is not exactly cushy.

ElendilTheTall

10:32 AM

he's on detachment with the Australian Defence Force at the moment... not much chance of being captured there, unless the kangaroos have smartened up some

@Jolenealaska no, but it's unlikely to result in capture by islamist militants, even in Norfolk

Jolenealaska

Well! You couldn't be the child of a sitting president and have a job like that.

ElendilTheTall

that's because you are far too precious about your presidents

they are essentially elected monarchs

Jolenealaska

The Secret Service would get really pissed off!

True.

ElendilTheTall

I'm pretty sure that Harry was surrounded by some rather serious chaps from a certain... special regiment at all times

Jolenealaska

Slimy bunch, too.

(presidents)

ElendilTheTall

10:34 AM

indeed

almost elected dictators... at least our monarchs lack any actual power

Jolenealaska

Making him more of a liability than anything.

ElendilTheTall

¯_(ツ)_/¯

Jolenealaska

Yep, that is a point.

ElendilTheTall

I think they are keen to contribute

or at least, be seen to contribute

Jolenealaska

It seems that way (to Yanks who don't know any better)

ElendilTheTall

10:36 AM

I have the least quarrel with those two as it happens. They at least make an effort to be halfway normal and contribute to society

whereas Andrew and Fergie's daughter (i forget the name) has had 14 vacations this year alone, by all accounts

Jolenealaska

I actually kind of like them.

Shit! That's more than Obama!

This is MY recipe!

jamieoliver.com/recipes/chicken-recipes/…

Bisquick, not self rising flour, but other than that...

ElendilTheTall

boo, never put mushrooms in to stew

they go all slimy

fry them and add them before serving

Jolenealaska

And just try to find someone in an American grocery store that can point you to the celeriac.

ElendilTheTall

philistines

:)

Jolenealaska

I saute them until good and brown.

(shrooms)

ElendilTheTall

10:43 AM

is his chilli recipe there? Because with a couple of tweaks it's brilliant

jamieoliver.com/recipes/beef-recipes/chilli-con-jamie

use beef stock instead of coffee, don't use the optional beans

Jolenealaska

I found it just as you linked to it.

ElendilTheTall

also, any recipe from this series... oh, why did we start slimming as it came on TV?

jamieoliver.com/recipes/category/books/jamie-s-comfort-food/…

the steak sandwich

the chicken kiev

Jolenealaska

Chicken Kiev is a fave of mine.

This looks really good jamieoliver.com/recipes/beef-recipes/…

ElendilTheTall

oh christ, I need that chicken tikka now

@Jolenealaska yeah!

Jolenealaska

I have veggie soup for dinner. nooooooooooooo

Luckily, I have no car, so there is no good way to cheat right now!

I could make cocoa!

I still have some cocoa that I didn't send to rumi!

I have never used brisket for chili or stew.

ElendilTheTall

10:51 AM

It's fantastic

it breaks up into thick, meaty strands

Jolenealaska

I do like brisket, but I've never used it for anything like that. Corned beef, Reubens, New England boiled dinner, Corned Beef and Cabbage, and as a roast. Never as a stew.

ElendilTheTall

try it now, thank me (and Jamie) later

Jolenealaska

Have you ever heard of the Southern US brisket recipe with Dr Pepper?

ElendilTheTall

yes

Jolenealaska

How it is so good I have no idea :)

it just is.

brb

My show has arrived!

WooHoo!

ElendilTheTall

11:03 AM

?

Jolenealaska

Go Anne! Juvenile Diabetes Research! (Chopped, Anne Burrell is who I am rooting for)

It showed on TV several hours ago, it just arrived on Amazon.

75K to their charity is the grand prize.

ElendilTheTall

ah

Jolenealaska

16, down to last 4.

You can tell that this is not just another day at the office for these chefs.

And it's weird, because they are being judged by their peers... but the judges are really good at it.

Do you know of Ted Allen?

ElendilTheTall

nope

Jolenealaska

He's written a few cookbooks, but I've never actually seen him cook. He's a foodie and a charmer. He's the host, there are 10 or so judges that rotate. 3 per episode.

Very distinct personalities, and very polarizing. I like them all, but that puts me in a tiny minority.

"I'm Chef Anne Burell, I'm a bad ass girl chef!" :)

foodnetwork.com/chefs/anne-burrell.html

ElendilTheTall

11:17 AM

the video won't play, but she has funky hair

I may be biased, but it seems our female chefs are all considerably better looking than yours

Jolenealaska

Yes...she and Guy Fieri hit it off the moment they met.

guyfieri.com

ElendilTheTall

He's a monumental dickhole if ever there was one

I've seen Diners, Drive-Ins etc

Jolenealaska

He has had his moments, but he is low on my list too.

ElendilTheTall

i still chuckle at the NYT review of his Times Square place

Jolenealaska

Diners, Drive ins and Dives was enjoyable at first, but way overplayed.

YES!!!

HA!

He won a season of The Next Food Network Star, and he appeals to quite a few people, but I have never learned a thing from him.

He had a instructional show for a while, but it was lame.

Anne, on the other hand, knows her stuff.

ElendilTheTall

11:23 AM

douse everything in garlic powder! bam! flavour town!

Jolenealaska

:)

She has a show called Secrets of a Restaurant Chef which is among the best I've seen.

It's in a league with Good Eats.

ElendilTheTall

@Cindy howdy

Jolenealaska

The one I don't care for in this group of 4 is the long-time personal chef to Oprah Winfrey.

ElendilTheTall

@Jolenealaska she still looks like a soccer mom, as all female American TV chefs do

cooking is only half the appeal of cookery shows for me

:D

Jolenealaska

Yes, even with the spiky hair!

She's a force too.

ElendilTheTall

11:29 AM

those are TV chefs!

Jolenealaska

I like her!

I know the middle one a little...

I don't know the first one at all.

ElendilTheTall

Rachel Khoo at the top runs a restaurant in her tiny Paris apartment

her kitchen is virtually a closet - she has one power outlet

Jolenealaska

jeez

ElendilTheTall

Chicken Dumpling Soup - Little Paris Kitchen - BBC Food

►

Jolenealaska

I had a bigger kitchen in my dorm room!

ElendilTheTall

11:33 AM

welcome to Europe

Jolenealaska

That is one thing about this move that I can't stand. My new kitchen will be 1/3 the size of this one.

ElendilTheTall

I always smirk at reviews for London hotels on Trip Advisor - you can spot the Americans because they always whine about the size of the room

Faheem Mitha

@ElendilTheTall An American in Paris, by the sound of it. Though Gene Kelly is absent.

ElendilTheTall

many London hotel rooms have about a foot either side of the bed, 5 feet at the end, and an en-suite

Jolenealaska

Now imagine Americans used to 1 square mile per person!

ElendilTheTall

11:35 AM

when we went to NYC, we were amazed at the size of the room. It was almost the same size as our then-apartment floor plan

and that was just a Holiday Inn

Faheem Mitha

I've spent enough time in the US that American voices sound "normal" to me.

Jolenealaska

How much time have you spent here?

Faheem Mitha

@Jolenealaska From 1996 to 2009. 14-15 years, approximately.

Jolenealaska

If I didn't know better, I would think from your writing style that you were born and raised here.

Faheem Mitha

On second thoughts, that woman might be British. I'm having difficulty telling.

ElendilTheTall

11:37 AM

she is British, ya nut

lol

Jolenealaska

Slightly less time than I have been in Alaska.

ElendilTheTall

'I've spent enough time in the US for the accent to sound almost British'

Jolenealaska

LOL

Faheem Mitha

@Jolenealaska Well, I acclimatized.

It helped that my home life (in India) sucked.

Jolenealaska

Don't look at me, I only looked at the pictures :)

Faheem Mitha

11:39 AM

@ElendilTheTall You should know.

ElendilTheTall

@FaheemMitha I should and do

Jolenealaska

What is her name in the red dress? She's well known here too.

ElendilTheTall

@Jolenealaska Nigella Lawson

Jolenealaska

Yes!

She is fun to watch.

Faheem Mitha

Yes, she does sound English, actually. But sometimes I get confused. Especially when they talk loudly.

ElendilTheTall

11:41 AM

@Jolenealaska you're not wrong

LOL!

I wonder what is takes to become a TV chef. Being photogenic probably helps. Also, being able to cook.

Jolenealaska

Voluptuous and naughty!

Being able to cook is a bonus.

ElendilTheTall

@FaheemMitha the former apparently applies only to British female TV chefs

Faheem Mitha

@ElendilTheTall Someone went to a lot of trouble to piece that together.

ElendilTheTall

11:46 AM

in my experience American female TV chefs look like your mother in law

@FaheemMitha yes indeed

Jolenealaska

Actually, there are only a handfuls of celebrity chefs that I don't really like.

Faheem Mitha

Well, there is Julia Child. Who wasn't especially, um, voluptuous.

Jolenealaska

She was special.

Faheem Mitha

Or is that was?

Yes, it's was.

Jolenealaska

Yes, she is no longer with us.

Faheem Mitha

11:47 AM

There was a weird film called "Julia and Julia".

Jolenealaska

Yes

Faheem Mitha

Two Julia chefs. My mother was watching it.

Jolenealaska

I liked it

One chef, one blogger.

ElendilTheTall

it was about Julia Child and a woman who blogged her way through her recipe books @FaheemMitha

Jolenealaska

Here's a sad little bit of trivia.

Child was not amused.

Never mind that the move probably sold tens of thousands of her cookbooks.

And that it was complimentary.

Child died shortly after the movie came out.

ElendilTheTall

11:53 AM

I believe there should be some kind of reward (preferably financial) for having the top 5 starred comments

Jolenealaska

Yeah....

ElendilTheTall

somewhat involved eh?

how involved can it be? marinate meat in wine and herbs

transfer to pot, stew, add mushrooms and shallots

or thereabouts

Jolenealaska

tablespoon.com/recipes/julia-child39s-beef-bourguignon/…

0 servings :)

Funny thing about the starred comments...in every one of them you're talking to me!

Faheem Mitha

@ElendilTheTall Yes, I vaguely remember something about that. Based on a book, possibly.

Yoga time.

Jolenealaska

And I starred 3 of them!

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