mar

we humans cannot consider all edge-cases. Yama and Bhagavan will take care of the rest. our only course is to follow shastras.

"We cannot just say due to someone's birth they are totally, immune to punishment in this realm and free to do as they please" - correct, and dharmashastras don't allow blanket immunity to brahmins. whatever leniency you are assuming to be overstepping the bounds is actually within the bounds, you just don't accept it personally that's all. the reason brahmins aren't awarded death for murder is that if a brahmin, who is generally extremely tolerant and patient actually had reason to kill someone, shastras wonder how bad a wrongdoing the victim must have committed to be killed by a brahmin

we're talking in circles.. yes, they are not free to do ANYTHING and get away. but that's not what we're talking about in your original question. whatever punishments (or lack thereof) mentioned in scriptures is within the bounds of moral/universal/karmic law. shastras know much more of the big picture than we do.

you already mentioned it - with greater power comes greater responsibility. the converse is also true. with greater responsibility comes greater power. have you ever seen kings / ultra-rich be punished for a crime in the same way lower people are ? it's because the balance of universe is such that punishing them causes greater harm to the universe than not punishing them. it's why arvind kejriwal is in AC jail, it's why donald trump got an extension. also, the king is of lower varna than brahmin, so he doesn't have right to punish him. it's like a company VP can't fire the CEO, only owner can

the laws of rishis and the laws of Manu are all based on gruhya sutras which are from 6th anga of vedas called kalpa sutra, which is part of Vedas which comes from Bhagavan who created the 4 varnas. they are all part of the same law/morality/karma/religion/metaphysics

"there is no proof of Karma" - believing in karma and rebirth is one the defining characteristic of a Hindu. without that, no point in debating on this website. the same laws of karma that determine birth also determine punishment and rewards. if you believe shastras, how can you choose which parts to believe and which parts to not believe based on your limited intellect's reasoning ?

no that punishment is prescribed in Manu Smriti - meaning it is for humans on earth. there may be additional/similar punishments in Naraka if they don't undergo it on earth. anyway, your assumption about unfairness is wrong. Smritis are absolutely 100% unbiased. mostly only the lower varnas whine and complain because they are unable to digest the fact that they are born in lower varna due to their own bad karma in previous lives, and want to blame others. As the Tamil proverb goes - theedum nandrum pirar thara vaara - one's suffering and pleasure are not the results of other's actions.

for the crime of drinking liquor, the punishment for lower varnas was... nothing, enjoy. for the same crime, the punishment for a brahmin was drinking boiling lead until his internals burned him to death. yeah, dharmashastras were really unfair to the lower varnas for sure.

also like i said earlier, lot of mixed caste professions are already mentioned. all modern jobs fall under one of these buckets.

Instead they give the only way out which will work in Kali Yug - nama sankirtan.

"if no one can take up a job if that caste doesn't exist" - are you looking for a rule in shastras that justifies any work done today? and if it doesn't exist, you assume shastras are outdated ? i'm saying shastras know about all types of work that will be done in future. and the point of shastras is to get people to follow rules to reach Bhagavan. and Shastras know that these people doing random work will not follow varna-ashrama rules. So it doesn't mention these random works/technologies

"So then no one should take up farming, business, military," - you are attacking some wild strawmen here. they can take up farming. and they will take it up. AND they will face the consequences of it too. Like i said earlier, just by being born in Kali, you are doomed to face pain. It's like hospice care. Shastras knows people will commit sin and suffer, so it gives them a pain-killer (nama sankirtan).

"Nama sankirtana" is not going to magically grow crops for you." - well, it might, but that wasn't Bhagavan's intention in making one chant. and I didn't say it will grow crops.

"Also, keep in mind that shastras don't mention the duties of mlecchas. The shastras are strictly for Indians. - yes. no point in enacting laws for dogs and cats. they just do what they please and face the consequences. similarly mlecchas have different religions (christianity, islam) to cater to their lowered morality.

"So you are saying that people should take up farming to run a civilization, but they should do nama sankirtana to counteract the sin? - yes.

@Ikshvaku - it doesn't mean shastras accept that anyone can take farming today. it just means that IF anyone takes up farming, and they don't happen to be vaishya, they will face the consequences of it. basically everyone in kali is doomed to suffer just by being born. shastras are not going to change just because we are unable to live up to its standards. but they do give an easy way out - nama sankirtan.

@Ikshvaku - this is deja vu - hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/45520/…. lack of mention of a particular name/place/animal/thing does not invalidate or reduce the might of shastras.

"Shastras don't explain what people should do when there is complete varna sankara in society" - correct, because at that point rules have already been broken. it's like asking why shastras don't write rules for how to navigate traffic when nobody stops at red light. the answer is - either follow the rules mentioned earlier, or crash and find out. btw, the duties for many mixed castes are already given in shastras. computer engineer would fit in one of those buckets even if not explicitly mentioned.

"because shastra doesn't explain how to solve every societal problem" - manu already solved all of them. you just don't know it. As the saying goes - whatever Manu advises, eat that like medicine

Computers are "adharmic"? - Shastras do not talk about iPhone or Teslas either. does not mean they are adharmik (or dharmik). It just means shastras do not care what people do, because people do not care what they do. As the answer in my first link aptly puts it - "All laws arose in the Krita age ; all have vanished in the Kali age.". It just means - do whatever your ancestors did, OR whatever you want, because that's what most people in kali yug are going to do anyway. and beware that it will inevitably lead to a breakneck speed crash. the only way out is nama sankirtan and/or surrender.

"Tell me which caste is "software developer" caste, "IT specialist", or "engineer"? - well, which caste was the stable boys in mahabharat ? how about the princess' companion girls ? the surnames 'reddy' or 'rayar' or 'nadar' or etc. are just clan names whose varna can be traced back to vaishya or kshatriya several hundred years ago, just as 'tripathi' or 'dwivedi' are brahmin clans denoting no. of vedas learned by ancestors. they have mixed now, so they do mixed professions. just as Suta drove chariots (mix of brahmin advice and kshatrya valor) for real kshatriyas.

"For example, if the sun gets destroyed, then we cannot do sandhyavandanam, even though the shastra says to do it." - correct, it means we are in the consequence stage of karma. the only thing to do is face it, until bhagavan resets yugas. it's like a car going full speed whose steering wheel we have purposely decided to throw away, or hide in the trunk. the best we can do is watch it coast until it crashes.. of course you can always raise your hand to let bhagavan lift you off before it does. of course, there are jagadgurus who can reinstall the steering wheel for a bit.

"So we can see that rules have changed to account for inevitable, irreversible, and impossible changes in society" - already dealt with this here. "This is why the dharma shastras have internal contradictions, such allowing dvija marriage with shudra women, but then later on saying it's prohibited" - there are different rules for each yuga. it doesn't mean the rules changed WITH time. the rules were set up AHEAD of time.

"How do we resolve this dilemma in modern times?" - where is the dilemma at all ? the so-called dilemma only occurs because you're trying to change the law to fit society than other way around. People are flawed, law is not. As Swami Vivekananda aptly put "don't try to reduce the ideal because you can't live up to it". There is no point in creating a new law to fit those who don't follow laws. Bhagavan just lets people do whatever they want and lets consequences of karma deal with transgressors. cos the consequences are seemingly less painful than following rules for most people nowadays.

rules never become obsolete. only societies that stop following them do. there is never a time when 100% people followed scriptural rules. Should we throw out rules because 1/100 people don't follow them ? should we throw them out if 50/100 people don't follow them? How about 99/100 ? where do you draw the line. The answer is - you don't. Even if 100 people don't follow the rule, the rule should exist. what happens is - slowly as the no. of people following it diminishes, as does no. of people enforcing it, so does quality of life - you can see people complaining about corruption, anarchy etc.

@Siddharth - obviously it does answer the question of how long ago Treta Yug happened. And Rama took birth in Treta Yug.

Does this answer your question? Which scripture mentions Yuga length?

narayan = vishnu = ram = krishna. a person is called father by son, husband by wife, son by father, employee at work, friend at gym, etc. they're the same person not 5 different persons.

@AnubrataBit - "But these wandering siddha-sadhakas failed to attract much following" - would YOU trust a wandering sadhak compared to a guru putra ? given that you and i don't have capability or right to test a guru thoroughly before accepting diksha ? i think kulaguru system is meant for choosing safe path. and if this system gets rotten/corrupted, it will have to change. but such massive changes are the responsibility of avatara purushas like jagadacharyas, not you and i.

"but a majority of Brahmins have unethically blocked women & shudras" - citation required. in all upanyasams i have seen, majority listeners / front benchers are women. and most shudras are simply not interested in puranas. there is no gatekeeper blocking shudras from entering pravachan hall. anycase blocking puranas from being read is different from blocking puranas from being listened to. former is dangerous if they start misinterpreting using limited intellect. @AnubrataBit

in all homes, girl children are told stories of ramayan and mahabharat, they're taught stotras of acharyas, they're taught household decorum and duties listed in Smritis. not just puranas, brahmins taught vedangas to shudras - including stapathyam (sculpture), ayurveda etc. did you know that ahobila mutt pitadhipathi appointed a shudra sthapathi to build the famed srirangam raja gopuram in 1980s, because modern 'engineers' gave up, but that stapathi knew sanskrit shlokas which determined ratios for structure ? i think you're buying into false librandu trope that brahmins oppressed everyone.

"For which they are paid, I might also add" - as donation, not as fees. @AnubrataBit. Everyone seems to be ignoring to address the root cause of the issue - WHY should Shudras not read Vedas/Puranas. Answer is simple - for same reason a non-army layman is not given a ak-47. for same reason a non-scientist layman is not given a bio chemical agent. they would at best misuse it, and at worst, abuse it. the necessary discipline required to wield knowledge is missing in shudras. of course i'm talking about shudras and brahmanas who have both birth and character matching their varna.

in all homes, girl children are told stories of ramayan and mahabharat, they're taught stotras of acharyas, they're taught household decorum and duties listed in Smritis. not just puranas, brahmins taught vedangas to shudras - including stapathyam (sculpture), ayurveda etc. did you know that ahobila mutt pitadhipathi appointed a shudra sthapathi to build the famed srirangam raja gopuram in 1980s, because modern 'engineers' gave up, but that stapathi knew sanskrit shlokas which determined ratios for structure ? i think you're buying into false librandu trope that brahmins oppressed everyone.

"but a majority of Brahmins have unethically blocked women & shudras" - citation required. in all upanyasams i have seen, majority listeners / front benchers are women. and most shudras are simply not interested in puranas. there is no gatekeeper blocking shudras from entering pravachan hall. anycase blocking puranas from being read is different from blocking puranas from being listened to. former is dangerous if they start misinterpreting using limited intellect. @AnubrataBit

"For which they are paid, I might also add" - as donation, not as fees. @AnubrataBit. Everyone seems to be ignoring to address the root cause of the issue - WHY should Shudras not read Vedas/Puranas. Answer is simple - for same reason a non-army layman is not given a ak-47. for same reason a non-scientist layman is not given a bio chemical agent. they would at best misuse it, and at worst, abuse it. the necessary discipline required to wield knowledge is missing in shudras. of course i'm talking about shudras and brahmanas who have both birth and character matching their varna.

yeah i know those troubles

congrats - this might be relevant in light of our recent discussion.

now what - simple - they incur sin or they go to jail. devil & deep sea. you might ask 'so we incur sin just by living' - yes. being born in kali yug means you/me did some sins earlier. so we don't yet have adhikaar to be born in a time when it will be easy for us to follow dharma 100%. with what we have, if we do our best, we may get a chance to be born again in another yug, where we can practice dharma better. also, why care about US law ? you can live in India in states in Rajasthan where child marriage is prevalent and accepted.

add to that list - celery, cabbage, cauliflower/broccoli, store-bought items like chips, soda & biscuits (I'm guilty of this). but these are Niyama (fine-grained) rules. Following these but transgressing Yamas (main rules) like alcohol, porn, gambling, meat - yields no results. cos it's useless to sprinkle your face with water after jumping into sewage.

offering raw grains after the annual harvest - yes, this rule is/was followed in all agricultural villages throughout India - the first padi (measure) is offered to Bhagavan. Even US organic milk doesn't follow Vedic dairy rules. - Correct, that's why i said "at least" avoid non-organic. Also vedic dairy rules are geared towards native breed cows (A2). Other/mixed breeds have relaxed rules. just because it's impractical, doesn't mean we shouldn't do - I didn't say we shouldn't do. I said if you want 100 marks do X, if you are want 90, do Y, if you're OK with 50, do Z.

The zeal with which you follow Ahara Niyam is directly proportional to the Satvik Buddhi you'll obtain. It's not binary. No religion/shastra on earth would be applicable then. The entire goal is to make bad people good, good people better, better people best. That's not to say none should try to follow it 100%. The spiritual sadhak's internal samskaras will determine how much he/she follows it.

so does this means Vaishnavas should go vegan? - Outside India, preferably yes. if you can find a goshala near you that follows those rules, then by all means that milk is accepted and recommended. Or go to goshalas when you visit India. At least, avoid packet milk in India, and non-organic milk in US. and other milk-related products taken for sake of enjoyment rather than nutrition (like cheese, cookies, cakes). Ghee obtained from desi cows/goshalas in India and exported outside, is allowed for parischena during daily food, or lamps etc.

Vaishnavas shouldn't drink tap water either? - Ideally No. That's why even today, staunch orthodox brahmins use well-water. Or they transfer the tap water back to ground in an artificially constructed well, and then take it from there. The rule is - rain water AFTER it has fallen on the ground, can be taken from the ground and drank within one day. After that one day, it's purity reduces, so it can go back into bhumi and taken again as a compromise. Nowadays this may not be practical, so store the water in an earthern pot/copper/silver vessel at home before drinking.

This means Vaishnavas should not eat grains - you're misinterpreting "grains" - grains doesn't mean "grains", it means food derived from grains. it means you have to offer anna (cooked rice) to God, or after whatever spices you add on top of it, as the final act of Neivedya before eating. Also, not everyone involved in the agricultural chain of seed to stomach has to offer it to Bhagavan. Only the final Bhokta (eater) has to. So Vaishnavas can eat (cooked) grains after they offer it.

@Savdy - that upanishad is either not authentic or it is not accepted for commentary by any of the 3 acharyas - shankara, ramanuja, madhwa. it is generally used by buddhists/liberals/atheists/charvakas

@Savdy - birth is necessary, but not sufficient. the presence of statements like "do upanayana to a brahmin at age7, a kshatriya at age 8" in gruhya sutras is proof that varna is determined at birth. but it is possible for a person to refuse to follow his birth varna and thus fall down.

@Savdy - that is wrong. in vedic period, caste was definitely dependent on birth. but birth alone was not sufficient. samskara, rituals, study, work and character according to that varna's rules all were necessary to be respected as a member of a particular varna.

Let us continue this discussion in chat.