English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

00:24

Greetings.

Martha

Aloha.

Or maybe Salutations?

kiamlaluno

Would waving my hand work too?

Martha

Unless they've invented the Stack Exchange Video Chat while I wasn't looking, no.

kiamlaluno

"Live long and prosper."

Oh, to whom was I sending the video, then?

Martha

That's more of a goodbye than a greeting, @kiamlaluno.

Was it a nekkid video at least?

kiamlaluno

00:33

Does it count if I am wearing a shirt with short sleeves?

Martha

Oh, my, short sleeves, how risqué!

Almost as good as showing your ankles!

kiamlaluno

I know; I should have cut them completely.

Martha

Nah, don't go cutting off your arms, it'd make it hard to type.

kiamlaluno

That is a part of my body I have never named.

Martha

@Cerberus, so, are you going to reply to our replies to your greeting? Or were you just tantalizing us with the prospect of conversation?

kiamlaluno

00:37

Maybe the greetings were not good.

Cerberus

Avete!

How is that?

Chairete!

kiamlaluno

How about an"Augh?"

Martha

Jó estét?

Cerberus

Hmm... what language is that?

That sounds HUngarian?

kiamlaluno

Bonan vesperon!

Martha

00:37

Well, duh.

Cerberus

Speaking of which... I am a bit peckish.

I bet that is Esperanto, @Kiam?

Martha

Eh, now you've gone and reminded me.

Cerberus

Sowwy.

kiamlaluno

Wait, this is not the chat for esperanto.stackexchange.com.

Cerberus

You started it.

Martha

00:38

I've already consumed all the food-like objects to be found in the office.

Cerberus

Not quite, no...

Martha

Who started what?

kiamlaluno

Mi estas tre contenta!

Cerberus

@Kiam: It all sounds like a mixture of Italian and French!

Martha

THWACK!!!! THWACK THWACK THWACK THWACK THWACK!!!!!

kiamlaluno

00:40

What about Hungarian sausages?

Martha

You. Shall. Not. Make. That. "Joke". In. My. Presence. EVER.

Hmph.

Cerberus

Oh dear! I am sorry, it was too easy. That is what hunger does to a person.

I mean–what joke?

I see only "(removed)"?

Did anything happen?

kiamlaluno

(I should add a little of German by saying fraulo.)

Cerberus

Fraulo? Haha that sounds ridiculous.

Martha

Besides, can I help it that you furrinners can't pronounce Magyarország and have thus come up with your own name for the country?

kiamlaluno

00:42

Wait I say there is also fraulino.

Martha

Too late to sweep things under the rug, @Cerberus. Hide the evidence all you want, I know what happened.

Sniff.

kiamlaluno

Now I know from where the magiari come from.

(I always wondered about that.)

Cerberus

I thought that shame and suffering were all relative to that of others...

I know Hungarian stamps always have Magyar on them. And that the Asian tribe that bothered the Romans were called the Magyars.

Martha

Romans? Not so much. Maybe you're thinking Huns? The Magyars settled in the Carpathian basin in the 9th century, by which times the Romans were but a memory.

Well, Holy Roman Empire notwithstanding.

kiamlaluno

Also the Lombards bothered the Romans (or not?).

Cerberus

00:48

Oh! I was mistaken. Yes, they came at the same time as the Vikings, of course.

Martha

I think it's more like the Romans bothered the Lombards, isn't it?

Cerberus

I just drank a few beers, you see.

kiamlaluno

(History is not my best.)

Martha

Fine, blame it on the alcohol.

Cerberus

No! The Lombards bothered the Romans. In fact, everybody was busy bothering the Romans.

Poor guys.

Martha

00:50

I'm not actually sure about the Lombards, @kiamlaluno. I've heard the name, naturally, but I can't quite place it.

kiamlaluno

(I should know more about Lombards, as my region is called Lombardy.)

Cerberus

They were a Germanic tribe that settled in northern Italy, probably around the 6th or 7th century.

kiamlaluno

I remember King Desire, and his daughter.

Cerberus

Oh? I don't remember him.

kiamlaluno

There was also his son, Adelchi.

Cerberus

00:51

Lombards, Byzantines, and the Pope were usually vying for power in the Italian early Middle Ages.

kiamlaluno

Longobards founded Padua.

Actually, I think they should be Longobards.

Cerberus

Huh, really? I thought Virgil came from Padua?

Both names should be equivalent...

kiamlaluno

Uhmmm… In English is Lombards.

Cerberus

Oh it was Mantua.

kiamlaluno

In Italian, it would be longobardi.

Cerberus

00:53

In Dutch, we use both names.

kiamlaluno

Virgil was born in Mantua.

Cerberus

Right.

kiamlaluno

Dante was born in… Ravenna? No, his tomb is in Ravenna.

Cerberus

Hmm I thought it was Inferno?

kiamlaluno

Longobards is better, as it avoid confusion with the Lombard spoken nowadays.

Cerberus

00:56

I don't know... any differentiation would feel artificial to me I think.

kiamlaluno

He decided to take another place; he said Inferno was too hot.

Cerberus

Aww poor guy. I suppose he had a point.

kiamlaluno

Well, how would you call the inhabitants of Lombardy?

You know, he liked to run after the skirts of… what's her name?

Cerberus

Actually I have no idea: the Lombards of yore were historically more important.

kiamlaluno

I am a Lombard too.

Cerberus

00:58

Wikipedia calls you all Lombards, past and present.

It also mentions Longobards and Langobards as synonyms.

As right it should!

Martha

Dante's love was Beatrice, btw.

kiamlaluno

Yes, but Wikipedia says "were." It is not referring to the inhabitants of Lombardy.

Right. I confuse Dante with Petrarca.

"Chiari e fresche dolci acque, ove pose le membra colei che solo a me par donna."

Cerberus

It is referring to present-day Lombards.

> According to Istat, almost 27% of Lombards are bilingual with Lombard and Italian languages; 9.1% are monolingual in Lombard and 57.6% are monolingual in Italian.[3]

kiamlaluno

Well, not here.

Lombards

The Lombards (), also referred to as Langobards and Longobards, were a Germanic people originally from Northern Europe who settled in the valley of the Danube and from there invaded Byzantine Italy in 568 under the leadership of Alboin. They established a Lombard Kingdom, later named Kingdom of Italy, which lasted until 774, when it was conquered by the Franks. Their influence on Italian political geography is apparent in the regional appellation Lombardy. Early history Legendary origins and name The fullest account of Lombard origins, history, and practices is the Historia Langobardoru...

Cerberus

Lombardy

Lombardy ( , Western Lombard: Lumbardìa, Eastern Lombard: Lombardia) is one of the 20 regions of Italy. The capital is Milan. One-sixth of Italy's population lives in Lombardy and about one fifth of Italy's GDP is produced in this region, making it the most populous and richest region in the country and one of the richest in the whole of Europe. Major tourist destinations in the region include the historic, cultural and artistic cities of Milan (which is Italy's second top tourist destination), Brescia, Mantua, Pavia, Como, Cremona, Bergamo, Sondrio, Lecco, Lodi, Varese, Monza and Bria...

kiamlaluno

01:03

Brescia!

Augusta Brixia!

OK; you will say I drank something, but it is not so.

Cerberus

sigh I remember how much fun it was to conquer Brescia in Europa Universalis... a rich prize she was!

kiamlaluno

By the way, I live in Brescia.

That must be why my name is Alberto.

Cerberus

Oh? Is that Bresciano?

kiamlaluno

Bresciano? "Noalter som de Brèsa!"

It's a shame I don't find the right diacritics.

Cerberus

Is that Brescian dialect? (I was just taking a guess at what the name of the adjective would be...)

kiamlaluno

01:09

It's Brescian. At least that is what Wiki uses when says "Brescian language."

Martha

e-acute = Alt + 130. (Well, on Windows.)

kiamlaluno

Yes, that is Brescian language, which is a dialect of Eastern Lombard.

Nöalter.

I was looking for the ¨.

Martha

On which vowel?

kiamlaluno

It's easier on the Mac. It's enough I find the key for the diacritic, and then I press the key for the letter I want to put the diacritic on.

On the ö.

Martha

0228 = ä

kiamlaluno

01:14

It would work, if I would be using Windows. :-)

Martha

0246 = ö

kiamlaluno

ä, Ä, ë, Ë.

Martha

Oh. Ooops. Well, now you can just copy & paste.

kiamlaluno

It's faster on the Mac.

I am not sure where to actually place those diacritics. :-)

Brescian is mostly spoken.

Cerberus

I have written my own little program for accents. ç = c,, é = e// ö = o``

Martha

01:16

Well, on my windows machines, it's Alt+Shift, then éáőúűüóí are all a single keystroke away.

Cerberus

@Kiam: I meant the Italian name for Brescian...

kiamlaluno

Oh, that is bresciano; it's easy. :-)

Cerberus

Hah! That's what I said.

kiamlaluno

In Brescian, it's bresà, which should not be confused with Brèsa (Brescia).

Cerberus

Ahh I see.

kiamlaluno

01:18

When the accent counts… :-)

Martha

szár = stem, szar = crap.

(Beat that for "accent counts".)

kiamlaluno

I imagine saying "this stem craps, and this crap stems."

Venti = twenty, vènti = winds.

Martha

Also, I laugh and/or cringe at some people's pronunciation of Sárközy.

kiamlaluno

I try to not say it; I am still wondering how he can be French, and have that last name.

Martha

His father was Hungarian.

kiamlaluno

01:23

That explains all.

Martha

I don't think he actually speaks the language or anything.

kiamlaluno

I have heard his name pronounced in two different ways; one was the French way, I am sure.

The other one sounded like "Sàrco-osi."

I know one was the French way because they put the accent on the last vowel.

Milan becomes Milanò.

Martha

The Hungarian pronunciation should be something like /'showr-kew-zee/... ew. Lemme look up the IPA.

/ˈʃaːr-køz-i/

Wikipedia:IPA for Hungarian

The charts below show the way in which the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA) represents Hungarian language pronunciations in Wikipedia articles. See Hungarian phonology for a more thorough look at the sounds of Hungarian. {| style="background: none" |----- | valign="top" | {| class="wikitable" ! !! Examples !! English approximation |- ! colspan=3| Consonants |- |align="center"| | bot, képzés | boat |- |align="center"| | tyúk, ágytól, látja, átnyúlik | Tuesday |- |align="center"| | dob, hétből | duck |- |align="center"| | dzéta, ketrecben | lads |- |align="center"| | dzsessz, ácsbó...

Cerberus

Intellestingk.

Yitzchak

Martha, in what language does szar mean crap? I know several people who are fond of singing a Hungarian song called Szar Kosol or something similar despite not knowing a word of Hungarian.

Martha

01:31

@Yitzchak, in Hungarian. "Kosol" doesn't look or sound like a Hungarian word; is this a phonetic rendering of something?

Well, maybe koszol "he/she/it dirties"? But that really doesn't sound like a song title.

Yitzchak

Apparently it becomes one when sung by people who haven't spoken Hungarian conversationally in three generations but develop a serious case of patriotism after some drinks.

Thanks for the info.

Martha

The other thing I can think of is zárkózol "you close [yourself] off", which I can sorta imagine occurring in a song, but it can't really start a sentence.

Or, wait, if I reverse the consonants to their Polish versions, there's sarkozol "you corner [something]" or maybe "you clap your heels together", but that's really contrived.

Robusto

What up, dawgz?

Martha

And of course that's getting close to Sárközy, so maybe it's not a patriotic song at all but a play on the current French president's name?

What's up is that I really need to go home. Maybe the rain has let up enough to make that feasible. (Umbrella = dinky.)

Yitzchak

Nah, they sang it before he was elected and claim it was a folk song though neither they nor their parents can translate it.

Raining where you are too? Too bad.

Martha

01:43

Well, Sárköz is an ethnographic region of Hungary. (Literally means "between the mud".)

But I don't know of any folk songs about ethnographic regions. (At one point I knew something like 200+ Hungarian folk songs.)

Robusto

Argh, I stumbled into Ungaria. Please pardon the interruption.

Martha

Hey, if we can be in Russia half the time, what's wrong with Magyarország?

Yitzchak

Between the mud. I like that, especially since Hungarian Jews are notorious for their superiority complex towards other ones.

Martha

Hungarians with a superiority complex? How refreshing.

All the Hungarians I know suffer from a national inferiority complex. As in, "we're so much better than everyone but nobody recognizes it and they just love to keep us down and damn those [insert favorite scapegoat here] anyway."

kiamlaluno

(May I insert lamb chops?)

Martha

01:50

Only if you give me some.

kiamlaluno

With mint jelly?

Martha

Oh, wait. They'd be all fuzzy and icky by the time they got here. Nevermind.

And I don't like mint.

So, are you having lamb chops for... what is it, early breakfast?

kiamlaluno

Nor do I, but I was counting on you not liking it too.

Cerberus

I think I made an Hungarian friend, called something like Ferens? Ferenc?

Martha

My boss is named Ferenc.

kiamlaluno

01:51

No; I wish I would be eating lamb chops with my girlfriend.

Cerberus

Ah! Then that must be the correct spelling.

Martha

(So yes, Ferenc is Hungarian for Frank. Sorta.)

Cerberus

That's what I thought.

He is quite smart.

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus: Uh… I see troubles. :-)

Cerberus

@Kiam: Oh dear! Do you?

Martha

01:53

I saw that, @Cerberus.

Sweeping things under the rug again, are you?

Cerberus

My name is Cerberus Eat-your-evidence The Language Freak.

And I haven't the faintest idea what you might be talking of.

kiamlaluno

I would not mind her putting mint jelly on the chops too. :-)

Martha

Aw, @kiamlaluno misses his girlfriend. Or something.

Why are either of you awake, anyway?

Cerberus

Haha... did he just add in "her putting"?

kiamlaluno

It's "her, putting."

Cerberus

01:55

Oh, we don't sleep in the Old World. You should know, as an Hungarian...

Haha the comma is really the finishing touch!

The icing on on the cake.

kiamlaluno

Yeah, we are too old too sleep.

Martha

I saw that, too. Icon on the cake, indeed.

kiamlaluno

Isn't the cherry on the cake?

Cerberus

Yeah that was a weird typo.

Martha

Too old, too sleep?

Cerberus

01:56

Yes I am too sleep.

Martha

No, cherries just go on top of a request. "Pretty please with a cherry on top."

Cerberus

Sounds logical.

Hey I have a question.

kiamlaluno

Damn… that is why I have never got one on the cake.

Martha

You should be happy, it tends to be one of them icky plastic maraschino cherries.

Aw. We chased off @Robusto.

kiamlaluno

I wonder why we say "the cherry on the cake," instead of "the icy on the cake."

Cerberus

01:58

Scientific research has provided evidence that Dutch people with less education tend to make more jokes that are separate jokes, whereas those with higher education rather mix their jokes subtly into conversation. Any evidence of this in English?

Martha

Zero clue, sorry.

Cerberus

Oh.

When I thought about this research for a little bit, it struck with my intuitions.

Martha

I have noticed a tendency for those with a full set of chromosomal material (namely, females) to stick to actually funny jokes, while those with defective chromosomes (namely, males) to always go for the most painful pun possible.

Yitzchak

@Martha Yeah, superiority complex. To hear them tell it, the food is better, the women are prettier, the men are smarter, the grass is greener, the wool is whiter, the sky is bluer etc. They're mostly joking, but only mostly.

Cerberus

I have a new hypothesis, that more proverbs are also a sign of less education.

Yitzchak

02:00

@kiamluno *icing

Cerberus

Define "funny" and "painful".

Martha

funny = ha ha ha, painful = ow THWACK! ow.

Pretty simple, really.

Yitzchak

Those of us with a variety of chromosomes make funny jokes. Those of us with monotonously shaped chromosomes don't get the joys of simple humor

Cerberus

Oh, dear... is every thwack a painful thwack?

Let me look up which gender has which chromosomes again... I keep forgetting these things...

Oh. So females have XX.

And one in a thousand have XXX...

kiamlaluno

Wasn't that XYY?

Cerberus

02:04

Wiki says XXX with some number.

Martha

@Yitzchak It's a proven fact that people respond to puns with painful noises. They may laugh afterwards, but the first reaction is always an expression of pain. I ask you, is that really humor?

Cerberus

I only really like brilliant puns; the rest are just making conversation.

Yitzchak

What Cerberus said. It is humor

Cerberus

It may be.

Martha

XYY, XXX, and I think XXY are all possible chromosomal aberrations.

Cerberus

02:05

And XY?

Yitzchak

We aren't aberrations

Cerberus

I presume that is an aberration as well?

Martha

No, not by a strict definition of aberration.

Yitzchak

night

Cerberus

A very, very strict one.

Bye Yitz!

kiamlaluno

02:06

@Yitzchak: Good night.

Martha

See, the Y chromosome is also X shaped, but one of the arms is defective. Hence the male inability to find stuff, and various other defects.

4

kiamlaluno

(I was not sure if he wrote "right," or "night.")

Martha

Good night, @Yitzchak.

Cerberus

Hah and you were questioning male puns!

Martha

Eh?

Cerberus

02:08

But it is still pretty funny and deserving of a star.

I think your use of "arms" and "defective" might be thwack-worthy...

Martha

I repeat, Eh?

Cerberus

Well, that was punnish... one might almost say Punic.

If the latter weren't a meaningless pun.

Martha

I think I'll take this as a sign to give up on y'all and go home. You're not making any sense.

Good night!

(Or almost-good-morning, really.)

Cerberus

I know. I am slightly tipsy and tired... going to bed myself too. Night!

Bye Kiam!

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus: Good night! :-)

psmears

05:57

Not sure if this has been pointed out already, but... dupetastic:

0

Q: Where "it's" "it is" question.

Why is it that the following sounds incorrect: "Would she know where it's?" But this sounds fine: "Would she know where it is?"

grammar

4

Q: When is it gramatically correct to create a contraction of words followed by "is"

For instance is "who's" as correct short form of "who is"?

grammaticality short-form

10

Q: Is there some rule against ending a sentence with the contraction "it's"?

I heard this lyric in a song the other day and it just sounded so wrong that I assumed it must be incorrect grammar, but I can't find any specific prohibition that applies. That's what it's. That rolls off your tongue with the grace of a moose in a tutu, but I can't figure out why. There ...

grammaticality syntax contractions

Not 100% identical dupes - because there are situations other than the end of the sentence where "it is" can't be contracted - but not really enough to justify two (let alone three) questions, since the answer is essentially the same

Martha

06:29

The new question is a subset of the oldest question (by JohnFx). I've voted as such.

RegDwight

10:00

@Martha I can pronounce Magyarország just fine. It's not exactly a shibboleth.

Now let me hear you pronounce Союз Советских Социалистических Республик, and we can call it quits.

F'x

10:21

easy: Союз Советских Социалистических Республик

satisfied?

RegDwight

So you are Armenian?

Cerberus

12:19

Morning. Ish.

Robusto

12:30

Morning. Definitely.

kiamlaluno

Good afternoon.

Robusto

@RegDwight — Союз Советских Социалистических Республик, eh? Still pining for the old Stalinist regime, I see. I guess I would pronounce that ess ess ess ep ...

kiamlaluno

By the way, when you greet, should you say what is correct for the person you are greeting, or for you?

Robusto

If you are greeting someone on the phone, I would greet them by their time of day. If on the web, it doesn't matter. But if you wake someone up at 3:00 a.m. on the phone, make sure you note the time and apologize profusely.

kiamlaluno

Well, in that case saying "good afternoon" would be an excuse.

"Oh, I am sorry; I keep to forget you are in a different timezone."

Robusto

12:34

No, it would not be an excuse. It would be an announcement that you are an insensitive dolt who thinks the world revolves around you.

kiamlaluno

That reminds of a commercial: All around you.

I guess that is because many people start to think that all is really around them.

Robusto

@Martha — Well, with all the space available to you on your HUGE 2nd X chromosome, could you not find some space for a little driving/parking skill?

@kiamlaluno — The very definition of solipsism.

kiamlaluno

I asked because on IM, I am usually greeted by the time of the day of who is greeting.

Is there anybody who uses Mac OS 10.7?

Cerberus

Hai.

No Macs.

Microsoft is the new Good™ corporation.

Google has started spiralling towards Evil™.

Apple went Evil™ with the release of the Ipod.

So new research has pointed out.

Robusto

@kiamlaluno — Lion? Is it released yet?

RegDwight

12:48

@Robusto WTH is an SSSP?

kiamlaluno

@Robusto: There is a beta that is released for developers.

Robusto

I was told it was a slang way to pronounce CCCP. Of course, the P is an "r" in Cyrillic, but anyway that's what I was told.

RegDwight

@Robusto I thought it was only them Italians who pronounced it "chi-chi-chi-pee".

Robusto

So ... is that correct, or was I an unwitting dupe of the dictatorship of the proletariat once again.

kiamlaluno

@RegDwight: We say ci ci ci pi.

RegDwight

12:50

See what Berlusconi regime will do to you?

kiamlaluno

@RegDwight: Is that an antonym?

RegDwight

Berlusconi of will or regime of see?

Robusto

@RegDwight — Are you going to give me a straight answer on this question?

kiamlaluno

The right doesn't know what the left does.

RegDwight

Sometimes I have no idea what kiamlaluno is talking about. And by "sometimes" I mean "always". And by "kiamlaluno" I mean "everyone".

@Robusto Which question?

kiamlaluno

12:52

@RegDwight: It is an Italian joke. Berlusca is against Communists.

Cerberus

Berlusca...

Robusto

You know which question.

4 mins ago, by Robusto

So ... is that correct, or was I an unwitting dupe of the dictatorship of the proletariat once again.

RegDwight

No I don't.

Ah.

Uh.

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus: Yes, Berlusconi.

RegDwight

What is the question, then?

Р is R in Cyrillic, yes.

But you know that already.

Robusto

12:54

Is ess ess ess ep the slang way Russians pronounce CCCP?

RegDwight

No.

Cerberus

Is CCCP ever pronounced like ess ess ess pee by Russians, as a slangy joke?

Oh.

Why ep anyway?

Robusto

He's trying hard to figure out a way to give another evasive answer ...

RegDwight

Because Robusto got told so by some Mexicans working in his backyard.

How is "no" evasive?

No. No. No. NO.

Robusto

Didn't see the "no" because Kerberos intervened.

Cerberus

12:56

No is probably Russian "iyo" and means something like "your ass"?

RegDwight

Honestly, we should be bashing Martha instead.

kiamlaluno

Niet.

Cerberus

Hey what has poor Martha done?

RegDwight

@kiamlaluno That is the most incorrect way ever to spell or pronounce that word.

Cerberus

What is wrong with it?

I always spell it like that.

I didn't know Dutch spelling authorities could be so wrong...

RegDwight

12:57

10 hours ago, by Martha

I have noticed a tendency for those with a full set of chromosomal material (namely, females) to stick to actually funny jokes, while those with defective chromosomes (namely, males) to always go for the most painful pun possible.

Cerberus

Ik ben niet gek, ik ben niet gek...

RegDwight

10 hours ago, by Martha

See, the Y chromosome is also X shaped, but one of the arms is defective. Hence the male inability to find stuff, and various other defects.

Cerberus

Right. Her first remark deserves some rebuttal; the second one was just pretty good.

RegDwight

Dude will not stand this aggression!

Robusto

22 mins ago, by Robusto

@Martha — Well, with all the space available to you on your HUGE 2nd X chromosome, could you not find some space for a little driving/parking skill?

RegDwight

12:58

@Cerberus The second one is soooo old that I just groaned.

Robusto

See? Some of us are doing something about this matter.

Cerberus

@Rob: That was a decent rebuttal.

RegDwight

@Robusto My point exactly. That was not enough. Do continue.

Robusto

@RegDwight Well, we could all chip in ...

Cerberus

I made the "I am Hungary" joke?

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…