English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Also the Lombards bothered the Romans (or not?).

12:48 AM

Oh! I was mistaken. Yes, they came at the same time as the Vikings, of course.

I think it's more like the Romans bothered the Lombards, isn't it?

I just drank a few beers, you see.

(History is not my best.)

Fine, blame it on the alcohol.

No! The Lombards bothered the Romans. In fact, everybody was busy bothering the Romans.

Poor guys.

12:50 AM

I'm not actually sure about the Lombards, @kiamlaluno. I've heard the name, naturally, but I can't quite place it.

(I should know more about Lombards, as my region is called Lombardy.)

They were a Germanic tribe that settled in northern Italy, probably around the 6th or 7th century.

I remember King Desire, and his daughter.

Oh? I don't remember him.

There was also his son, Adelchi.

12:51 AM

Lombards, Byzantines, and the Pope were usually vying for power in the Italian early Middle Ages.

Longobards founded Padua.

Actually, I think they should be Longobards.

Huh, really? I thought Virgil came from Padua?

Both names should be equivalent...

Uhmmm… In English is Lombards.

Oh it was Mantua.

In Italian, it would be longobardi.

12:53 AM

In Dutch, we use both names.

Virgil was born in Mantua.

Right.

Dante was born in… Ravenna? No, his tomb is in Ravenna.

Hmm I thought it was Inferno?

Longobards is better, as it avoid confusion with the Lombard spoken nowadays.

12:56 AM

I don't know... any differentiation would feel artificial to me I think.

He decided to take another place; he said Inferno was too hot.

Aww poor guy. I suppose he had a point.

Well, how would you call the inhabitants of Lombardy?

You know, he liked to run after the skirts of… what's her name?

Actually I have no idea: the Lombards of yore were historically more important.

I am a Lombard too.

12:58 AM

Wikipedia calls you all Lombards, past and present.

It also mentions Longobards and Langobards as synonyms.

As right it should!

Dante's love was Beatrice, btw.

Yes, but Wikipedia says "were." It is not referring to the inhabitants of Lombardy.

Right. I confuse Dante with Petrarca.

"Chiari e fresche dolci acque, ove pose le membra colei che solo a me par donna."

It is referring to present-day Lombards.

> According to Istat, almost 27% of Lombards are bilingual with Lombard and Italian languages; 9.1% are monolingual in Lombard and 57.6% are monolingual in Italian.[3]

Well, not here.

Lombards

The Lombards (), also referred to as Langobards and Longobards, were a Germanic people originally from Northern Europe who settled in the valley of the Danube and from there invaded Byzantine Italy in 568 under the leadership of Alboin. They established a Lombard Kingdom, later named Kingdom of Italy, which lasted until 774, when it was conquered by the Franks. Their influence on Italian political geography is apparent in the regional appellation Lombardy. Early history Legendary origins and name The fullest account of Lombard origins, history, and practices is the Historia Langobardoru...

Lombardy

Lombardy ( , Western Lombard: Lumbardìa, Eastern Lombard: Lombardia) is one of the 20 regions of Italy. The capital is Milan. One-sixth of Italy's population lives in Lombardy and about one fifth of Italy's GDP is produced in this region, making it the most populous and richest region in the country and one of the richest in the whole of Europe. Major tourist destinations in the region include the historic, cultural and artistic cities of Milan (which is Italy's second top tourist destination), Brescia, Mantua, Pavia, Como, Cremona, Bergamo, Sondrio, Lecco, Lodi, Varese, Monza and Bria...

1:03 AM

Brescia!

Augusta Brixia!

OK; you will say I drank something, but it is not so.

sigh I remember how much fun it was to conquer Brescia in Europa Universalis... a rich prize she was!

By the way, I live in Brescia.

That must be why my name is Alberto.

Oh? Is that Bresciano?

Bresciano? "Noalter som de Brèsa!"

It's a shame I don't find the right diacritics.

Is that Brescian dialect? (I was just taking a guess at what the name of the adjective would be...)

1:09 AM

It's Brescian. At least that is what Wiki uses when says "Brescian language."

e-acute = Alt + 130. (Well, on Windows.)

Yes, that is Brescian language, which is a dialect of Eastern Lombard.

Nöalter.

I was looking for the ¨.

On which vowel?

It's easier on the Mac. It's enough I find the key for the diacritic, and then I press the key for the letter I want to put the diacritic on.

On the ö.

0228 = ä

1:14 AM

It would work, if I would be using Windows. :-)

0246 = ö

ä, Ä, ë, Ë.

Oh. Ooops. Well, now you can just copy & paste.

It's faster on the Mac.

I am not sure where to actually place those diacritics. :-)

Brescian is mostly spoken.

I have written my own little program for accents. ç = c,, é = e// ö = o``

1:16 AM

Well, on my windows machines, it's Alt+Shift, then éáőúűüóí are all a single keystroke away.

@Kiam: I meant the Italian name for Brescian...

Oh, that is bresciano; it's easy. :-)

Hah! That's what I said.

In Brescian, it's bresà, which should not be confused with Brèsa (Brescia).

Ahh I see.

1:18 AM

When the accent counts… :-)

szár = stem, szar = crap.

(Beat that for "accent counts".)

I imagine saying "this stem craps, and this crap stems."

Venti = twenty, vènti = winds.

Also, I laugh and/or cringe at some people's pronunciation of Sárközy.

I try to not say it; I am still wondering how he can be French, and have that last name.

His father was Hungarian.

1:23 AM

That explains all.

I don't think he actually speaks the language or anything.

I have heard his name pronounced in two different ways; one was the French way, I am sure.

The other one sounded like "Sàrco-osi."

I know one was the French way because they put the accent on the last vowel.

Milan becomes Milanò.

Wikipedia:IPA for Hungarian

The Hungarian pronunciation should be something like /'showr-kew-zee/... ew. Lemme look up the IPA.

/ˈʃaːr-køz-i/

The charts below show the way in which the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA) represents Hungarian language pronunciations in Wikipedia articles. See Hungarian phonology for a more thorough look at the sounds of Hungarian. {| style="background: none" |----- | valign="top" | {| class="wikitable" ! !! Examples !! English approximation |- ! colspan=3| Consonants |- |align="center"| | bot, képzés | boat |- |align="center"| | tyúk, ágytól, látja, átnyúlik | Tuesday |- |align="center"| | dob, hétből | duck |- |align="center"| | dzéta, ketrecben | lads |- |align="center"| | dzsessz, ácsbó...

Intellestingk.

Martha, in what language does szar mean crap? I know several people who are fond of singing a Hungarian song called Szar Kosol or something similar despite not knowing a word of Hungarian.

1:31 AM

@Yitzchak, in Hungarian. "Kosol" doesn't look or sound like a Hungarian word; is this a phonetic rendering of something?

Well, maybe koszol "he/she/it dirties"? But that really doesn't sound like a song title.

Apparently it becomes one when sung by people who haven't spoken Hungarian conversationally in three generations but develop a serious case of patriotism after some drinks.

Thanks for the info.

The other thing I can think of is zárkózol "you close [yourself] off", which I can sorta imagine occurring in a song, but it can't really start a sentence.

Or, wait, if I reverse the consonants to their Polish versions, there's sarkozol "you corner [something]" or maybe "you clap your heels together", but that's really contrived.

What up, dawgz?

And of course that's getting close to Sárközy, so maybe it's not a patriotic song at all but a play on the current French president's name?

What's up is that I really need to go home. Maybe the rain has let up enough to make that feasible. (Umbrella = dinky.)

Nah, they sang it before he was elected and claim it was a folk song though neither they nor their parents can translate it.

Raining where you are too? Too bad.

1:43 AM

Well, Sárköz is an ethnographic region of Hungary. (Literally means "between the mud".)

But I don't know of any folk songs about ethnographic regions. (At one point I knew something like 200+ Hungarian folk songs.)

Argh, I stumbled into Ungaria. Please pardon the interruption.

Hey, if we can be in Russia half the time, what's wrong with Magyarország?

Between the mud. I like that, especially since Hungarian Jews are notorious for their superiority complex towards other ones.

Hungarians with a superiority complex? How refreshing.

All the Hungarians I know suffer from a national inferiority complex. As in, "we're so much better than everyone but nobody recognizes it and they just love to keep us down and damn those [insert favorite scapegoat here] anyway."

(May I insert lamb chops?)

1:50 AM

Only if you give me some.

With mint jelly?

Oh, wait. They'd be all fuzzy and icky by the time they got here. Nevermind.

And I don't like mint.

So, are you having lamb chops for... what is it, early breakfast?

Nor do I, but I was counting on you not liking it too.

I think I made an Hungarian friend, called something like Ferens? Ferenc?

My boss is named Ferenc.

1:51 AM

No; I wish I would be eating lamb chops with my girlfriend.

Ah! Then that must be the correct spelling.

(So yes, Ferenc is Hungarian for Frank. Sorta.)

That's what I thought.

He is quite smart.

@Cerberus: Uh… I see troubles. :-)

@Kiam: Oh dear! Do you?

1:53 AM

I saw that, @Cerberus.

Sweeping things under the rug again, are you?

My name is Cerberus Eat-your-evidence The Language Freak.

And I haven't the faintest idea what you might be talking of.

I would not mind her putting mint jelly on the chops too. :-)

Aw, @kiamlaluno misses his girlfriend. Or something.

Why are either of you awake, anyway?

Haha... did he just add in "her putting"?

It's "her, putting."

1:55 AM

Oh, we don't sleep in the Old World. You should know, as an Hungarian...

Haha the comma is really the finishing touch!

The icing on on the cake.

Yeah, we are too old too sleep.

I saw that, too. Icon on the cake, indeed.

Isn't the cherry on the cake?

Yeah that was a weird typo.

Too old, too sleep?

1:56 AM

Yes I am too sleep.

No, cherries just go on top of a request. "Pretty please with a cherry on top."

Sounds logical.

Hey I have a question.

Damn… that is why I have never got one on the cake.

You should be happy, it tends to be one of them icky plastic maraschino cherries.

Aw. We chased off @Robusto.

I wonder why we say "the cherry on the cake," instead of "the icy on the cake."

1:58 AM

Scientific research has provided evidence that Dutch people with less education tend to make more jokes that are separate jokes, whereas those with higher education rather mix their jokes subtly into conversation. Any evidence of this in English?

Zero clue, sorry.

Oh.

When I thought about this research for a little bit, it struck with my intuitions.

I have noticed a tendency for those with a full set of chromosomal material (namely, females) to stick to actually funny jokes, while those with defective chromosomes (namely, males) to always go for the most painful pun possible.

@Martha Yeah, superiority complex. To hear them tell it, the food is better, the women are prettier, the men are smarter, the grass is greener, the wool is whiter, the sky is bluer etc. They're mostly joking, but only mostly.

I have a new hypothesis, that more proverbs are also a sign of less education.

2:00 AM

@kiamluno *icing

Define "funny" and "painful".

funny = ha ha ha, painful = ow THWACK! ow.

Pretty simple, really.

Those of us with a variety of chromosomes make funny jokes. Those of us with monotonously shaped chromosomes don't get the joys of simple humor

Oh, dear... is every thwack a painful thwack?

Let me look up which gender has which chromosomes again... I keep forgetting these things...

Oh. So females have XX.

And one in a thousand have XXX...

Wasn't that XYY?

2:04 AM

Wiki says XXX with some number.

@Yitzchak It's a proven fact that people respond to puns with painful noises. They may laugh afterwards, but the first reaction is always an expression of pain. I ask you, is that really humor?

I only really like brilliant puns; the rest are just making conversation.

What Cerberus said. It is humor

It may be.

XYY, XXX, and I think XXY are all possible chromosomal aberrations.

2:05 AM

And XY?

We aren't aberrations

I presume that is an aberration as well?

No, not by a strict definition of aberration.

night

A very, very strict one.

Bye Yitz!

2:06 AM

@Yitzchak: Good night.

See, the Y chromosome is also X shaped, but one of the arms is defective. Hence the male inability to find stuff, and various other defects.

4

(I was not sure if he wrote "right," or "night.")

Good night, @Yitzchak.

Hah and you were questioning male puns!

Eh?

2:08 AM

But it is still pretty funny and deserving of a star.

I think your use of "arms" and "defective" might be thwack-worthy...

I repeat, Eh?

Well, that was punnish... one might almost say Punic.

If the latter weren't a meaningless pun.

I think I'll take this as a sign to give up on y'all and go home. You're not making any sense.

Good night!

(Or almost-good-morning, really.)

I know. I am slightly tipsy and tired... going to bed myself too. Night!

Bye Kiam!

Q: Where "it's" "it is" question.

@Cerberus: Good night! :-)

psmears

5:57 AM

Not sure if this has been pointed out already, but... dupetastic:

0

Why is it that the following sounds incorrect: "Would she know where it's?" But this sounds fine: "Would she know where it is?"

grammar

4

Q: When is it gramatically correct to create a contraction of words followed by "is"

For instance is "who's" as correct short form of "who is"?

grammaticality short-form

10

Q: Is there some rule against ending a sentence with the contraction "it's"?

I heard this lyric in a song the other day and it just sounded so wrong that I assumed it must be incorrect grammar, but I can't find any specific prohibition that applies. That's what it's. That rolls off your tongue with the grace of a moose in a tutu, but I can't figure out why. There ...

grammaticality syntax contractions

Not 100% identical dupes - because there are situations other than the end of the sentence where "it is" can't be contracted - but not really enough to justify two (let alone three) questions, since the answer is essentially the same

6:29 AM

The new question is a subset of the oldest question (by JohnFx). I've voted as such.

10:00 AM

@Martha I can pronounce Magyarország just fine. It's not exactly a shibboleth.

Now let me hear you pronounce Союз Советских Социалистических Республик, and we can call it quits.

F'x

10:21 AM

easy: Союз Советских Социалистических Республик

satisfied?

So you are Armenian?

12:19 PM

Morning. Ish.

12:30 PM

Morning. Definitely.

Good afternoon.

@RegDwight — Союз Советских Социалистических Республик, eh? Still pining for the old Stalinist regime, I see. I guess I would pronounce that ess ess ess ep ...

By the way, when you greet, should you say what is correct for the person you are greeting, or for you?

If you are greeting someone on the phone, I would greet them by their time of day. If on the web, it doesn't matter. But if you wake someone up at 3:00 a.m. on the phone, make sure you note the time and apologize profusely.

Well, in that case saying "good afternoon" would be an excuse.

"Oh, I am sorry; I keep to forget you are in a different timezone."

12:34 PM

No, it would not be an excuse. It would be an announcement that you are an insensitive dolt who thinks the world revolves around you.

That reminds of a commercial: All around you.

I guess that is because many people start to think that all is really around them.

@Martha — Well, with all the space available to you on your HUGE 2nd X chromosome, could you not find some space for a little driving/parking skill?

@kiamlaluno — The very definition of solipsism.

I asked because on IM, I am usually greeted by the time of the day of who is greeting.

Is there anybody who uses Mac OS 10.7?

Hai.

No Macs.

Microsoft is the new Good™ corporation.

Google has started spiralling towards Evil™.

Apple went Evil™ with the release of the Ipod.

So new research has pointed out.

@kiamlaluno — Lion? Is it released yet?

12:48 PM

@Robusto WTH is an SSSP?

@Robusto: There is a beta that is released for developers.

I was told it was a slang way to pronounce CCCP. Of course, the P is an "r" in Cyrillic, but anyway that's what I was told.

@Robusto I thought it was only them Italians who pronounced it "chi-chi-chi-pee".

So ... is that correct, or was I an unwitting dupe of the dictatorship of the proletariat once again.

@RegDwight: We say ci ci ci pi.

12:50 PM

See what Berlusconi regime will do to you?

@RegDwight: Is that an antonym?

Berlusconi of will or regime of see?

@RegDwight — Are you going to give me a straight answer on this question?

The right doesn't know what the left does.

Sometimes I have no idea what kiamlaluno is talking about. And by "sometimes" I mean "always". And by "kiamlaluno" I mean "everyone".

@Robusto Which question?

12:52 PM

@RegDwight: It is an Italian joke. Berlusca is against Communists.

Berlusca...

You know which question.

4 mins ago, by Robusto

So ... is that correct, or was I an unwitting dupe of the dictatorship of the proletariat once again.

No I don't.

Ah.

Uh.

@Cerberus: Yes, Berlusconi.

What is the question, then?

Р is R in Cyrillic, yes.

But you know that already.

12:54 PM

Is ess ess ess ep the slang way Russians pronounce CCCP?

No.

Is CCCP ever pronounced like ess ess ess pee by Russians, as a slangy joke?

Oh.

Why ep anyway?

He's trying hard to figure out a way to give another evasive answer ...

Because Robusto got told so by some Mexicans working in his backyard.

How is "no" evasive?

No. No. No. NO.

Didn't see the "no" because Kerberos intervened.

12:56 PM

No is probably Russian "iyo" and means something like "your ass"?

Honestly, we should be bashing Martha instead.

Niet.

Hey what has poor Martha done?

@kiamlaluno That is the most incorrect way ever to spell or pronounce that word.

What is wrong with it?

I always spell it like that.

I didn't know Dutch spelling authorities could be so wrong...

12:57 PM

10 hours ago, by Martha

I have noticed a tendency for those with a full set of chromosomal material (namely, females) to stick to actually funny jokes, while those with defective chromosomes (namely, males) to always go for the most painful pun possible.

Ik ben niet gek, ik ben niet gek...

10 hours ago, by Martha

See, the Y chromosome is also X shaped, but one of the arms is defective. Hence the male inability to find stuff, and various other defects.

Right. Her first remark deserves some rebuttal; the second one was just pretty good.

Dude will not stand this aggression!