The Nineteenth Byte

forest

00:15

@RydwolfPrograms Whoops, thanks.

OldSandboxPosts

01:00

Sandbox posts last active a week ago: Knook to Mate... With Portals!, Borders of a Rectangular Matrix, Sudoku as a SAT problem

lyxal

@OldSandboxPosts hey, that's one of mine! :p

lyxal

01:51

Guthib

Sandbox Posts

02:23

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Pushing boxes away but fastest-algorithm I'll accept first fastest algorithm and then this challenge turns into restricted-complexity code-golf. Sandbox Notes Some options are listed in comment

PyGamer0

04:14

@lyxal lmao

lyxal

any feedback on knook to mate?

thinking of posting

Number Basher

05:37

@emanresuA is there a link? I can't find it

Hello, World!

07:34

0

A: "Hello, World!"

Aheui (esotope), 117 bytes 박밤밝발밞받밝밝밦밞밦발받박타받발따발밯밦밞밞받밞받밤받발따밞뱧희밣댜몋땨뎌벎 Try it online! Aheui (esotope), 123 bytes 박박발타밝받발밞밝발밣받밣바받받밣타받밯밣받발밞발밞밦발밝뱧희밣댜몋땨뎌뱔텨뱔벽떠 Try it online! Previous record: 144 by Sait2000 Since Aheui cannot push 10 or higher number at once, these programs try to minimize the cost of ...

emanresu A

08:19

But how does bitcoin actually work?

►

Sandbox Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Output code to sort a list without looping code-golfrestricted-source Given a integer n, output the source code for a program or function that can sort a list of n elements without looping. For any n there are a finite number of possible orderings so this has to be possible. Looping includes any ...

mousetail

08:50

LDQ For a practlang, should you be allowed to directly access transitive dependencies?

Unrelated String

09:14

my vote is no

it's pointless/confusing at best and could complicate the very idea of the user-facing api at worst

like, fundamentally, dependencies aren't anything different from your own library's guts

so there's no reason to expose them when you don't want to

lyxal

09:36

@mousetail I also feel like the answer should be no. By using library imported by something else, there's nowhere in the code that explicitly mentions that library is being used. Also, if the library you've explicitly imported stops using the library you're using transitively, you all of a sudden have a whole bunch of namespace errors

Like all good design practices aside, dependency management is already messy. No need to make it even more complicated by having quasi-dependencies

mousetail

LDQ If a library is used via 2 different dependencies, should both versions share any mutable globals and statics?

lyxal

Example syntax?

(just so I can see what you mean)

emanresu A

I've never seen a library with mutable globals. It's just not how libraries work

mousetail

Many libraries do, most famously react

Basically if you have something like this:

int a(b) {
   static int c;
   if (b) c=b else b=c;
   f(b)
}

Specifically in React you can have issues since many libraries rely on the global state to match other libraries. But this creates problems since sometimes libraries can get their own react versions with their own static and everything breaks

I thought you could just not allow static sharing even if the versions match, so you'd be forced to explicitly pass references to them to everything that needs it, to avoid this issue

Flask is also a library that makes a lot of use of global statics

Though in python you can't really install 2 versions of the same library so the program would just break instead of these hard to track down bugs

lyxal

09:52

That doesn't sound like a good idea then

Unrelated String

i feel like if you have a library that has mutable globals you need to somehow encapsulate it into something you can make distinct instances of before doing literally anything else with it

because that's fundamentally not a library

that's a god object you can treat like a library

mousetail

Then you'd need someObject.useState everywhere in react

Unrelated String

good.

(presumably you'd also have some way to put stuff from the library-object in scope like with a normal sane library :P)

mousetail

The issue is not so much with the syntax as with needing to pass the object around everywhere

Though flutter works something like that already so I guess it's possible

mathcat

13:01

Does an n-sum challenge exist? Like 2sum and 3sum but n.

Adám

13:15

@cairdcoinheringaahing Can you give chat.stackexchange.com/users/568611/user14747991 explicit write access to chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/52405/the-apl-orchard?

lyxal

@mathcat the heck is 2sum and 3sum?

mathcat

Given a list of numbers and an integer, find two different numbers that sum to the integer.

^ that but with n integers and some other extra rules

lyxal

there's this challenge which tells you the minimum n needed

which isn't what you're after but somewhat related

mathcat

hmm

lyxal

@mathcat Vyxal, 9 bytes: Ṅ'L⁰=nÞu∧

mathcat

13:29

lmao I'll think of something else

Rydwolf Programs

14:22

@UnrelatedString This is how Rust makes you handle it

mousetail

@RydwolfPrograms Rust can have static shared globals

Rydwolf Programs

I thought those were unsafe or something

mousetail

You can wrap them in a RefCell to make them safe

And even if it was unsafe major frameworks would, and do, use it

Rydwolf Programs

14:48

@UnrelatedString I mean, given that the DOM is basically a giant piece of mutable state, frameworks kinda get a pass for doing that

6

A: Why does the "dc" command exit(1) when it finishes?

This appears to be a bug in dc code, go to the bottom of dc/eval.c, line 817: reset_and_exit_quit: reset_and_exit_fail: signal(SIGINT, sigint_default); return DC_FAIL; reset_and_exit_success: signal(SIGINT, sigint_default); return DC_SUCCESS; the label reset_and_exit_quit should ...

I sure do love how all of our software is written with such good practices

Ginger

lol

mousetail

Honestly we need to delete all computers and start over. No more backwards compatibility

Delete x86, delete HTTP, delete Bash, delete Unix, delete email

Rydwolf Programs

I would support that if we go back and take care of the electrical grid too

240v with UK or possibly EU plugs for everyone

US plugs suck

mousetail

For sure, I've destroyed more american electronics that I can count

Go back even further and free up more radio frequencies for civilian use. Stuffing everything in 2.4 band is madness

Rydwolf Programs

Yeah definitely

Ginger

14:56

yall are thinking too small, why not just rewind time back to the Middle Ages?

Rydwolf Programs

Well 'cause nobody wants to go back to porridge drawers and feudalism

We just want consistent, functional technology

mousetail

No, the point is not to rewind time. I want all the technology to stay just designed together to all fit together nicely

Rydwolf Programs

We need a better OS than the existing offerings

mousetail

I think POSTIX is good in principle, the main issue is every OS messes it just enough to make it useless.

Ginger

Fortunately, the charging one has been solved now that we've all standardized on mini-USB. Or is it micro-USB? Shit.

mousetail

15:00

@Ginger That's why I want to delete every standard

I also propose to change the global language to Spanish, or at least something even a little more consistant than English

Ginger

what? no

English is a great language

I have a whole book on why

...but it's not with me right now :\

Rydwolf Programs

15:21

Katlani, and I am 100% serious

I absolutely love its grammar

And the vocabulary already felt pretty natlangy because of our way of adding words

Ginger

lol

Rydwolf Programs

vis si katlani su shor vi vodl, shi si niny su rak id fos do niny nila

Ginger

I haven't spoken Katlani in a year wtf does this mean

Rydwolf Programs

"If katlani was the language of the world, it would be better than it is now"

mousetail

@Ginger Maybe for speaking but not as the basis of every technical language

Rydwolf Programs

15:30

yg fy nosi pat valka, nosi pat iakra su maki nyn, nosi pat shinpai

("and thus there would be no war, no hate of other people, no fear")

Hm, vocab.md's super out of date

All five words for love are missing and I swear we'd changed the way you say something isn't occuring

mousetail

Also delete the imperial system

Rydwolf Programs

No, redefine customary volume measurements in terms of liters!

Cups, tablespoons, etc. have a charm that I really like, they're easy to visualize, and cups are basically just 250ml

Plus they're imprecise, which is good

It emphasizes the lack of need for precision

mousetail

Sure but make them reasonable memorable constant fractions

not like 2.3555 but 0.2

Rydwolf Programs

Yeah that's what I'm saying, make cups 250ml

mousetail

I'd be ok with that

Rydwolf Programs

15:35

I've been arguing for this in full seriousness for like a year, it would barely affect recipes (most of which would just get slightly different serving sizes since all the measurements are in customary), and it would also mean gallons can stick around, as exactly four liters

Which would ease the transition to metric

mousetail

I'm ok with highly specialized units like hands or karats

Or parsecs I guess

mathcat

@RydwolfPrograms start a petition /srs

Rydwolf Programs

katlani would be a really great language for poetry and songs and art and stuff, due to the flexibility its grammar allows

pxeger

16:10

@Ginger Sure, but please implement per-user rate limiting (≈1 req per second, ≈1000 per day)

mathcat

16:29

Woah that‘s generous

user

I mean, ATO has already been set up, the limits are probably just to avoid the tubes getting clogged

Ginger

@pxeger cool, thanks!

Rydwolf Programs

@mathcat ~~I mean it's not like anyone uses OLIMAR~~

Ginger

;-;

Seggan

@mousetail give the nontransitive dependency a choice (like gradle)

Rydwolf Programs

16:32

Quick update: Our site proposal for Programming Language Design and Implementation is doing great. However, we really need votes on questions. If you haven't followed yet, or if you've followed but haven't voted, we'd really appreciate some upvotes on questions currently between +1 and +9!

7

mousetail

Isn't there like 3 days left?

Rydwolf Programs

Wdym?

mousetail

For the 3 months limit

Seggan

@mousetail russian would be great (no bias at all). the one thing i dont like abt russian is that you have to write и instead of ы after ж and ш

Rydwolf Programs

What 3 month limit

mousetail

16:35

For the definition phase

Rydwolf Programs

That exists?

I haven't heard anything about that

Ginger

oh shit yeah that

Rydwolf Programs

Link pls?

mousetail

I thought I heared it somewhere not sure

Ginger

checking...

mathcat

16:36

gosh

mousetail

@Seggan That would be great, since you can confuse variables named ж with*

Ginger

oh, we're fine lol

there is a timeout, but it's 2 years, not 3 months

mousetail

Ok sorry for the unnececairy panic then

Rydwolf Programs

3

Seggan

@mousetail what?

Ginger

16:41

@RydwolfPrograms bold of you to assume I won't LIVE FOREVER

mathcat

@RydwolfPrograms But is it a mossy rock?

Rydwolf Programs

Yes but the moss is unbelievably thin

Ginger

nooooo

mathcat

We are all going to die.

Ginger

Remember, the mortality rate for code golfers is 100%

user

16:47

@RydwolfPrograms Just 50?

Rydwolf Programs

Well, 50 usable years

mousetail

Still I'd prefer we finish our deadline sooner than later, with some momentum

user

idk, some people remain not senile until their 90s

Ginger

@RydwolfPrograms uh did we suddenly go from needing 11 more to 16 more???

Rydwolf Programs

Yes

user

16:49

Redistribution

Rydwolf Programs

in Programming Language Design and Implementation, 41 mins ago, by Rydwolf Programs

Also, I've reallocated my five votes to questions in the 3-6 vote range

Ginger

oh lol

user

I wanna take those extra 9 votes and move them so bad

Also all the votes on questions with scores of 1 and 2

Seggan

@user ikr

user

Why is the requirement so high? (compared to the measly 5 votes we get)

Ginger

16:53

@user your site must be worthy of SE :p

mathcat

@user but I kinda agree, 5 is a bit less

7 would‘ve been manageable

Rydwolf Programs

Nah, it should just be 20 questions instead of 40

10 votes is reasonable, it's just that a whole page of them is insane

We're doing pretty good tho, despite it feeling impossible. We've got 85% of the productive votes we need

Seggan

^

Rydwolf Programs

We need 13 people who actually know what they're doing to come along and vote. We get one every few days. It's going to be slow, but we've gotten a pretty steady trickle, no signs of too much of a slowdown

Ginger

let's throw a party once we hit commitment

mousetail

17:01

Your place?

mathcat

And we also have 164 ~~minions~~ followers

Rydwolf Programs

I'll bring the pizza

mousetail

Make sure we can eat it in 19 bytes or less

7

Ginger

lmao

mathcat

I‘ll bring some rocks … oh wait

user

17:05

That's not the kind of stoning you usually do at a party

Ginger

"to get stoned": to smoke weed
"to do stoning": medieval torture
Make sure you read the fine print, kids

mathcat

lmao

Rydwolf Programs

user

@Ginger Hey, stoning is a time-honored tradition that started well before medieval times

Seggan

@RydwolfPrograms se nitro or not?

Rydwolf Programs

17:19

No

Seggan

aww

whens more nitro

Rydwolf Programs

Altho that would be a pretty funny way to start P4

DLosc

17:52

@mousetail My semi-serious vote for world language is Indonesian. 1) It's already spoken by hundreds of millions of people; 2) its spelling system uses printable ASCII characters; 3) the sound system is relatively simple; 4) it doesn't have grammatical gender, including pronouns.

Jacob

printable ascii is obviously a must have when considering which language will be used universally among all humans in all circumstances

DLosc

Not a must have, but convenient

Jacob

has anyone come up with a way to store all of unicode into 1 byte each

DLosc

If you're storing a character set in 1 byte each, the character set can have at most 256 characters

Ginger

@Jacob that's kinda like asking "has anyone come up with a way to make 1 equal 0": it's impossible by definition

Jacob

18:00

has anyone come up with a way to make 1 equal 0 yet

DLosc

Sure: If a*b = c*b, then you can divide both sides by b and get a = c. So since 1*0 = 0*0, we can divide both sides by 0 and get 1 = 0. ;)

mathcat

in Off-Topic TNB, 6 mins ago, by Ginger

get disproven lol

Ginger

Rydwolf Programs

18:25

@Jacob yep, it was called having a zillion codepages each with small subsets of it, and we hated that :p

Jacob

imagine a language where every command was influenced both by it's code point and its position in the source tho. it would be impossible to use but could have way more potential commands lol

Rydwolf Programs

Sort of exists already

Jacob

what?

Rydwolf Programs

E.g., Risky overloads unary vs. binary functions based on index in source code

Jacob

hm ok

Rydwolf Programs

18:27

1+1 has + as addition, while +1 has + as...idk, some other operator

And +++ has the first and third + as a constant for the number 8

Jacob

jeez sounds confusing

Rydwolf Programs

It is, but it manages to pack 208 operators into 4 bits each

at the cost of needing lots of NOPs to pad things to the right positions

Ginger

~~it's called risky because if the position of a nop is evenly divisible by 32 it wipes your hard drive~~

emanresu A

At this point do we need to just extend the Best Of deadline?

Ginger

probably :|

Rydwolf Programs

18:54

Whoa we've got a lot of categories don't we

Oh I guess that's normal

3

A: Best of CGCC 2022 - Now Accepting Nominations!

Most helpful Sandbox commenter Repost from 2021. The Sandbox is a very useful tool to help improve people's challenges, and functions best when users provide helpful advice and feedback on the drafts. This category should reward the users who helped the most in the Sandbox during 2022.

"sandbox commenters" don't really exist anymore...

We kinda just get feedback from TNB

emanresu A

Yeahhhh

I might be able to find some worthy of SGITE (and piss off ais523 in the process)

Rydwolf Programs

Writing explanations is harder than I thought I was like "ooh maybe I can self-nominate for the Trianguish explanations I wrote, those took ages" then went back and they're like three paragraphs :|

Seggan

suggestion: merge best math insight and kansas city shuffle

and most diverse and most original challenge

emanresu A

19:10

I've ranted about best tip before

Rydwolf Programs

19:36

For 2023 let's do worst of CGCC: the inverse of every popular category from prior Best ofs :p

"Least Helpful Sandbox Comment", "Most Unoriginal Challenge", "Most Derivative Answer", "Complete and Utter Noob of the Year", "Least Useful Tip", etc. :p

DLosc

19:48

@RydwolfPrograms "D:< Y U NO CRITERIA"

@RydwolfPrograms And we can have negative bounties for the winners: the person who posted the Worst answer/question/whatever has to give a bounty to the person who proposed the category =P

Ginger

20:35

@RydwolfPrograms "Kansas Shitty Shuffle"

user

@RydwolfPrograms This would honestly be pretty fun if it weren't so rude to the people getting nominated

And I don't really want a -500 bounty

Ginger

20:54

CMQ: What's the best styling change to make to a user's name in a user list to indicate that they are not in the room you are in?

user

Make it completely hidden until you hover on it

Ginger

besides that?

user

Slightly grayed out until you hover on it?

Ginger

hmmm

mathcat

^^

user

20:55

Depends on what the usual names look like

Ginger

@user they can be any color, which is why I said "hmmm"

user

If they look like the names you see on this page, next to messages, it won't work because the normal messages are already super thin

@Ginger People can set their color? Might be too colorful

Ginger

too late, it's a feature

maybe I will just hide them

mathcat

Italic?

Ginger

ooh

yeah that works

Rydwolf Programs

21:04

not a fan

Just gray them out, italic could mean all sorts of stuff and doesn't really communicate "not here" to me

Oh wait they can be any color

Hm, maybe bold ones who are in the room?

Ginger

perhaps

mathcat

Yeah, maybe

But I would’ve thought mods will be in bold

Ginger

nah, mods have their own list bullet

Ginger

21:37

OOH I KNOW WHAT TO DO

mousetail

@DLosc Since we are reinventing standards, ASCII isn't a factor. Whatever language we pick will become the ASCII equivalent

Ginger

I'll just gray out their list number! don't know why I didn't think of that earlier

mousetail

Otherwise good points

Jacob

22:54

i want to learn thunno but i cant wrap my brain around stack stuff :(

could someone unfreeze thunno chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/141759/thunno

forest

@Jacob Done.

DLosc

@mousetail Ah, I didn't see the full context.

emanresu A

@Jacob Come learn vyxal, it better

Jacob

@forest thanks

DLosc

In that case, I think Spanish is also a good option. The main drawback, compared to my list of advantages for Indonesian, is that it has at least as many problems with gender as English does. But it also has more people who already speak it.

@emanresuA VTC as dupe :P

Jacob

23:02

@emanresuA vyxal has more competition tho -.-

emanresu A

Fair point

Jacob

i've been using japt but i want to learn a lang w more builtins and less annoying syntax stuff

user

23:16

If you're talking about the shortcuts, you don't have to memorize them, you can just hit the auto-golf button

Jacob

i don't mean the shortcuts

user

Just the whole transpile to JS thing? Yeah, that's annoying

Jacob

that and dealing with a few other things

i don't like how inconsistent the shortcuts are, they only exist for certain functions which aren't always the most common

user

It's not being updated anymore right?

Jacob

nah

user

23:21

If the author (ETHProductions?) is still active on GitHub, you could maybe make a PR

Jacob

i mean yeah but i really don't want to write javascript at all

the japt source looks like it's golfed lol

user

lol

Jacob

i'm pretty sure it isn't maintained anyway

the fact that it isn't maintained anymore tempts me to make a similar language with fewer annoyances but there are already enough and japt is basically fine as is

Seggan

23:49

@Jacob then Fig

lyxal

^

Seggan

its basically a lisp without parentheses (less of the philosophy tho)

iev recently started workin on it again

LDQ: should "this string matches the regex" return the string or true?

lyxal

there should be something for both

Seggan

i mean, the nonempty string is already truthy

(this is for fig)

Jacob

usually testing a regex against a string returns a boolean, and matching it returns a list of matches or something like that. so both

Seggan

23:59

mhm

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