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12:15 AM
@RydwolfPrograms Whoops, thanks.
@OldSandboxPosts hey, that's one of mine! :p
1:51 AM
2:23 AM
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

l4m2Pushing boxes away but fastest-algorithm I'll accept first fastest algorithm and then this challenge turns into restricted-complexity code-golf. Sandbox Notes Some options are listed in comment

2 hours later…
4:14 AM
@lyxal lmao
1 hour later…
5:37 AM
@emanresuA is there a link? I can't find it
2 hours later…
7:34 AM
A: "Hello, World!"

BubblerAheui (esotope), 117 bytes 박밤밝발밞받밝밝밦밞밦발받박타받발따발밯밦밞밞받밞받밤받발따밞뱧희밣댜몋땨뎌벎 Try it online! Aheui (esotope), 123 bytes 박박발타밝받발밞밝발밣받밣바받받밣타받밯밣받발밞발밞밦발밝뱧희밣댜몋땨뎌뱔텨뱔벽떠 Try it online! Previous record: 144 by Sait2000 Since Aheui cannot push 10 or higher number at once, these programs try to minimize the cost of ...

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

mousetailOutput code to sort a list without looping code-golfrestricted-source Given a integer n, output the source code for a program or function that can sort a list of n elements without looping. For any n there are a finite number of possible orderings so this has to be possible. Looping includes any ...

8:50 AM
LDQ For a practlang, should you be allowed to directly access transitive dependencies?
9:14 AM
my vote is no
it's pointless/confusing at best and could complicate the very idea of the user-facing api at worst
like, fundamentally, dependencies aren't anything different from your own library's guts
so there's no reason to expose them when you don't want to
9:36 AM
@mousetail I also feel like the answer should be no. By using library imported by something else, there's nowhere in the code that explicitly mentions that library is being used. Also, if the library you've explicitly imported stops using the library you're using transitively, you all of a sudden have a whole bunch of namespace errors
Like all good design practices aside, dependency management is already messy. No need to make it even more complicated by having quasi-dependencies
LDQ If a library is used via 2 different dependencies, should both versions share any mutable globals and statics?
Example syntax?
(just so I can see what you mean)
I've never seen a library with mutable globals. It's just not how libraries work
Many libraries do, most famously react
Basically if you have something like this:
int a(b) {
   static int c;
   if (b) c=b else b=c;
Specifically in React you can have issues since many libraries rely on the global state to match other libraries. But this creates problems since sometimes libraries can get their own react versions with their own static and everything breaks
I thought you could just not allow static sharing even if the versions match, so you'd be forced to explicitly pass references to them to everything that needs it, to avoid this issue
Flask is also a library that makes a lot of use of global statics
Though in python you can't really install 2 versions of the same library so the program would just break instead of these hard to track down bugs
9:52 AM
That doesn't sound like a good idea then
i feel like if you have a library that has mutable globals you need to somehow encapsulate it into something you can make distinct instances of before doing literally anything else with it
because that's fundamentally not a library
that's a god object you can treat like a library
Then you'd need someObject.useState everywhere in react
(presumably you'd also have some way to put stuff from the library-object in scope like with a normal sane library :P)
The issue is not so much with the syntax as with needing to pass the object around everywhere
Though flutter works something like that already so I guess it's possible
3 hours later…
1:01 PM
Does an n-sum challenge exist? Like 2sum and 3sum but n.
1:15 PM
@mathcat the heck is 2sum and 3sum?
Given a list of numbers and an integer, find two different numbers that sum to the integer.
^ that but with n integers and some other extra rules
which isn't what you're after but somewhat related
@mathcat Vyxal, 9 bytes: Ṅ'L⁰=nÞu∧
1:29 PM
lmao I'll think of something else
2:22 PM
@UnrelatedString This is how Rust makes you handle it
@RydwolfPrograms Rust can have static shared globals
I thought those were unsafe or something
You can wrap them in a RefCell to make them safe
And even if it was unsafe major frameworks would, and do, use it
2:48 PM
@UnrelatedString I mean, given that the DOM is basically a giant piece of mutable state, frameworks kinda get a pass for doing that
A: Why does the "dc" command exit(1) when it finishes?

don_crisstiThis appears to be a bug in dc code, go to the bottom of dc/eval.c, line 817: reset_and_exit_quit: reset_and_exit_fail: signal(SIGINT, sigint_default); return DC_FAIL; reset_and_exit_success: signal(SIGINT, sigint_default); return DC_SUCCESS; the label reset_and_exit_quit should ...

I sure do love how all of our software is written with such good practices
Honestly we need to delete all computers and start over. No more backwards compatibility
Delete x86, delete HTTP, delete Bash, delete Unix, delete email
I would support that if we go back and take care of the electrical grid too
240v with UK or possibly EU plugs for everyone
US plugs suck
For sure, I've destroyed more american electronics that I can count
Go back even further and free up more radio frequencies for civilian use. Stuffing everything in 2.4 band is madness
Yeah definitely
2:56 PM
yall are thinking too small, why not just rewind time back to the Middle Ages?
Well 'cause nobody wants to go back to porridge drawers and feudalism
We just want consistent, functional technology
No, the point is not to rewind time. I want all the technology to stay just designed together to all fit together nicely
We need a better OS than the existing offerings
I think POSTIX is good in principle, the main issue is every OS messes it just enough to make it useless.
3:00 PM
@Ginger That's why I want to delete every standard
I also propose to change the global language to Spanish, or at least something even a little more consistant than English
what? no
English is a great language
I have a whole book on why
...but it's not with me right now :\
3:21 PM
Katlani, and I am 100% serious
I absolutely love its grammar
And the vocabulary already felt pretty natlangy because of our way of adding words
vis si katlani su shor vi vodl, shi si niny su rak id fos do niny nila
I haven't spoken Katlani in a year wtf does this mean
"If katlani was the language of the world, it would be better than it is now"
@Ginger Maybe for speaking but not as the basis of every technical language
3:30 PM
yg fy nosi pat valka, nosi pat iakra su maki nyn, nosi pat shinpai
("and thus there would be no war, no hate of other people, no fear")
Hm, vocab.md's super out of date
All five words for love are missing and I swear we'd changed the way you say something isn't occuring
Also delete the imperial system
No, redefine customary volume measurements in terms of liters!
Cups, tablespoons, etc. have a charm that I really like, they're easy to visualize, and cups are basically just 250ml
Plus they're imprecise, which is good
It emphasizes the lack of need for precision
Sure but make them reasonable memorable constant fractions
not like 2.3555 but 0.2
Yeah that's what I'm saying, make cups 250ml
I'd be ok with that
3:35 PM
I've been arguing for this in full seriousness for like a year, it would barely affect recipes (most of which would just get slightly different serving sizes since all the measurements are in customary), and it would also mean gallons can stick around, as exactly four liters
Which would ease the transition to metric
I'm ok with highly specialized units like hands or karats
Or parsecs I guess
@RydwolfPrograms start a petition /srs
katlani would be a really great language for poetry and songs and art and stuff, due to the flexibility its grammar allows
4:10 PM
@Ginger Sure, but please implement per-user rate limiting (≈1 req per second, ≈1000 per day)
4:29 PM
Woah that‘s generous
I mean, ATO has already been set up, the limits are probably just to avoid the tubes getting clogged
@pxeger cool, thanks!
@mathcat I mean it's not like anyone uses OLIMAR
@mousetail give the nontransitive dependency a choice (like gradle)
4:32 PM
Quick update: Our site proposal for Programming Language Design and Implementation is doing great. However, we really need votes on questions. If you haven't followed yet, or if you've followed but haven't voted, we'd really appreciate some upvotes on questions currently between +1 and +9!
Isn't there like 3 days left?
For the 3 months limit
@mousetail russian would be great (no bias at all). the one thing i dont like abt russian is that you have to write и instead of ы after ж and ш
What 3 month limit
4:35 PM
For the definition phase
That exists?
I haven't heard anything about that
oh shit yeah that
I thought I heared it somewhere not sure
4:36 PM
@Seggan That would be great, since you can confuse variables named ж with*
oh, we're fine lol
there is a timeout, but it's 2 years, not 3 months
Ok sorry for the unnececairy panic then
@mousetail what?
4:41 PM
@RydwolfPrograms bold of you to assume I won't LIVE FOREVER
@RydwolfPrograms But is it a mossy rock?
Yes but the moss is unbelievably thin
We are all going to die.
Remember, the mortality rate for code golfers is 100%
4:47 PM
@RydwolfPrograms Just 50?
Well, 50 usable years
Still I'd prefer we finish our deadline sooner than later, with some momentum
idk, some people remain not senile until their 90s
@RydwolfPrograms uh did we suddenly go from needing 11 more to 16 more???
4:49 PM
in Programming Language Design and Implementation, 41 mins ago, by Rydwolf Programs
Also, I've reallocated my five votes to questions in the 3-6 vote range
oh lol
I wanna take those extra 9 votes and move them so bad
Also all the votes on questions with scores of 1 and 2
@user ikr
Why is the requirement so high? (compared to the measly 5 votes we get)
4:53 PM
@user your site must be worthy of SE :p
@user but I kinda agree, 5 is a bit less
7 would‘ve been manageable
Nah, it should just be 20 questions instead of 40
10 votes is reasonable, it's just that a whole page of them is insane
We're doing pretty good tho, despite it feeling impossible. We've got 85% of the productive votes we need
We need 13 people who actually know what they're doing to come along and vote. We get one every few days. It's going to be slow, but we've gotten a pretty steady trickle, no signs of too much of a slowdown
let's throw a party once we hit commitment
5:01 PM
Your place?
And we also have 164 minions followers
I'll bring the pizza
Make sure we can eat it in 19 bytes or less
I‘ll bring some rocks … oh wait
5:05 PM
That's not the kind of stoning you usually do at a party
"to get stoned": to smoke weed
"to do stoning": medieval torture
Make sure you read the fine print, kids
@Ginger Hey, stoning is a time-honored tradition that started well before medieval times
@RydwolfPrograms se nitro or not?
5:19 PM
whens more nitro
Altho that would be a pretty funny way to start P4
5:52 PM
@mousetail My semi-serious vote for world language is Indonesian. 1) It's already spoken by hundreds of millions of people; 2) its spelling system uses printable ASCII characters; 3) the sound system is relatively simple; 4) it doesn't have grammatical gender, including pronouns.
printable ascii is obviously a must have when considering which language will be used universally among all humans in all circumstances
Not a must have, but convenient
has anyone come up with a way to store all of unicode into 1 byte each
If you're storing a character set in 1 byte each, the character set can have at most 256 characters
@Jacob that's kinda like asking "has anyone come up with a way to make 1 equal 0": it's impossible by definition
6:00 PM
has anyone come up with a way to make 1 equal 0 yet
Sure: If a*b = c*b, then you can divide both sides by b and get a = c. So since 1*0 = 0*0, we can divide both sides by 0 and get 1 = 0. ;)
in Off-Topic TNB, 6 mins ago, by Ginger
get disproven lol
6:25 PM
@Jacob yep, it was called having a zillion codepages each with small subsets of it, and we hated that :p
imagine a language where every command was influenced both by it's code point and its position in the source tho. it would be impossible to use but could have way more potential commands lol
Sort of exists already
E.g., Risky overloads unary vs. binary functions based on index in source code
hm ok
6:27 PM
1+1 has + as addition, while +1 has + as...idk, some other operator
And +++ has the first and third + as a constant for the number 8
jeez sounds confusing
It is, but it manages to pack 208 operators into 4 bits each
at the cost of needing lots of NOPs to pad things to the right positions
it's called risky because if the position of a nop is evenly divisible by 32 it wipes your hard drive
At this point do we need to just extend the Best Of deadline?
probably :|
6:54 PM
Whoa we've got a lot of categories don't we
Oh I guess that's normal
A: Best of CGCC 2022 - Now Accepting Nominations!

caird coinheringaahingMost helpful Sandbox commenter Repost from 2021. The Sandbox is a very useful tool to help improve people's challenges, and functions best when users provide helpful advice and feedback on the drafts. This category should reward the users who helped the most in the Sandbox during 2022.

"sandbox commenters" don't really exist anymore...
We kinda just get feedback from TNB
I might be able to find some worthy of SGITE (and piss off ais523 in the process)
Writing explanations is harder than I thought I was like "ooh maybe I can self-nominate for the Trianguish explanations I wrote, those took ages" then went back and they're like three paragraphs :|
suggestion: merge best math insight and kansas city shuffle
and most diverse and most original challenge
7:10 PM
I've ranted about best tip before
7:36 PM
For 2023 let's do worst of CGCC: the inverse of every popular category from prior Best ofs :p
"Least Helpful Sandbox Comment", "Most Unoriginal Challenge", "Most Derivative Answer", "Complete and Utter Noob of the Year", "Least Useful Tip", etc. :p
7:48 PM
@RydwolfPrograms "D:< Y U NO CRITERIA"
@RydwolfPrograms And we can have negative bounties for the winners: the person who posted the Worst answer/question/whatever has to give a bounty to the person who proposed the category =P
8:35 PM
@RydwolfPrograms "Kansas Shitty Shuffle"
@RydwolfPrograms This would honestly be pretty fun if it weren't so rude to the people getting nominated
And I don't really want a -500 bounty
8:54 PM
CMQ: What's the best styling change to make to a user's name in a user list to indicate that they are not in the room you are in?
Make it completely hidden until you hover on it
besides that?
Slightly grayed out until you hover on it?
8:55 PM
Depends on what the usual names look like
@user they can be any color, which is why I said "hmmm"
If they look like the names you see on this page, next to messages, it won't work because the normal messages are already super thin
@Ginger People can set their color? Might be too colorful
too late, it's a feature
maybe I will just hide them
yeah that works
9:04 PM
not a fan
Just gray them out, italic could mean all sorts of stuff and doesn't really communicate "not here" to me
Oh wait they can be any color
Hm, maybe bold ones who are in the room?
Yeah, maybe
But I would’ve thought mods will be in bold
nah, mods have their own list bullet
9:37 PM
@DLosc Since we are reinventing standards, ASCII isn't a factor. Whatever language we pick will become the ASCII equivalent
I'll just gray out their list number! don't know why I didn't think of that earlier
Otherwise good points
1 hour later…
10:54 PM
i want to learn thunno but i cant wrap my brain around stack stuff :(
could someone unfreeze thunno chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/141759/thunno
@Jacob Done.
@mousetail Ah, I didn't see the full context.
@Jacob Come learn vyxal, it better
@forest thanks
In that case, I think Spanish is also a good option. The main drawback, compared to my list of advantages for Indonesian, is that it has at least as many problems with gender as English does. But it also has more people who already speak it.
@emanresuA VTC as dupe :P
11:02 PM
@emanresuA vyxal has more competition tho -.-
Fair point
i've been using japt but i want to learn a lang w more builtins and less annoying syntax stuff
11:16 PM
If you're talking about the shortcuts, you don't have to memorize them, you can just hit the auto-golf button
i don't mean the shortcuts
Just the whole transpile to JS thing? Yeah, that's annoying
that and dealing with a few other things
i don't like how inconsistent the shortcuts are, they only exist for certain functions which aren't always the most common
It's not being updated anymore right?
11:21 PM
If the author (ETHProductions?) is still active on GitHub, you could maybe make a PR
i mean yeah but i really don't want to write javascript at all
the japt source looks like it's golfed lol
i'm pretty sure it isn't maintained anyway
the fact that it isn't maintained anymore tempts me to make a similar language with fewer annoyances but there are already enough and japt is basically fine as is
11:49 PM
@Jacob then Fig
its basically a lisp without parentheses (less of the philosophy tho)
iev recently started workin on it again
LDQ: should "this string matches the regex" return the string or true?
there should be something for both
i mean, the nonempty string is already truthy
(this is for fig)
usually testing a regex against a string returns a boolean, and matching it returns a list of matches or something like that. so both
11:59 PM

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