English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

8:00 PM

It is because in olden days, people really did say Jesus' and Moses' with only two syllables, not three as is prevalent today.

Even the Greeks like Menelaus’, Odysseus’, Theseus’, Aeneas’. (Ok, Trojan). But people usually say those with an extra syllable now.

user19161

Actually @andrew I think version 1 of your question is already OK to me. :-)

tchrist

You can listen to old movies where they say "In Jesus' name, amen."

But today, you are more apt to hear "In Jesus's name, amen."

The problem is that people have forgotten that speech and writing are connected.

Andrew Stacey

Anyway, it's getting late here so I'm going to leave you to it. If I may leave with a gentle nudge: communication helps. I'm much less annoyed now than I was when I first saw the edit and read the related chat transcript. If you want to check something with me, leave a comment on the question and I'll take a look.

RegDwight АΑA

@tchrist you have to admit, English is not the best language to remind them of that.

user19161

@AndrewStacey Or you can just ping me too!

tchrist

8:04 PM

@RegDwightАΑA It works better if it’s Chaucer. :) But not much afterwards. I blame him for all our ills. Why did people have to write things down anyway? Maybe it's Gutenberg's fault.

@RegDwightАΑA I can provide any number of translations if you would prefer. :)

Robusto

@RegDwightАΑA Sweet. Thanks.

KitFox

OK, so how do I get the background image on this button to go away?

tchrist

Where by any number I am thinking of a non-negative integer such as the prenumerate typically count on their fingers.

RegDwight АΑA

@KitFox by viewing it in Netscape 4.4.

KitFox

@RegDwightАΑA Oh, that's got it. Thanks!

RegDwight АΑA

8:06 PM

I'm here to help. And superliminally promote NS 4.4.

tchrist

@RegDwightАΑA No tachyons in this chat.

RegDwight АΑA

Tachyons is an anagram for Sony chat. So much for superliminal promotion.

Robusto

I'll handle the anagrams around here. When a dabbler tries, you get tachyons all over the place.

I, plus mineral => superliminal. See? No tachyons.

KitFox

OK, I need a little CSS help.

RegDwight АΑA

"When a dabbler tries, you get tachyons all over the place." is an anagram of the first verse of the anthem of the USSR.

Robusto

8:11 PM

@RegDwightАΑA The first verse is radioactive. I'd advise you not to even touch it.

RegDwight АΑA

I heard good things about these goggles right here.

0

Q: 'to' / 'rather than' / 'but' [part of speech]

I prefer walking to taking the bus I prefer walking rather than taking the bus I prefer walking but taking the bus Wikipedia reads: "In grammar, a part of speech (also a word class, a lexical class, or a lexical category) is a linguistic category of words (or more precisely lexical...

This is a dupe.

9

A: Which is correct: "prefer X to Y" or "prefer X over Y"?

The Merriam-Webster Dictionary of English Usage (MDEU) suggests that to is the ordinary word used to construct comparisons using prefer: “when it is used to compare two things in the same sentence, the second […] is usually introduced by to.” They note that over (“Nine out of ten dentists prefer ...

tchrist

Aye,

RegDwight АΑA

Well almost.

No mention of but that I can see...

tchrist

I find but agrammatical.

I don’t where he pulled it out of.

RegDwight АΑA

So do I, but that's meaningless.

tchrist

8:15 PM

That we should find the but version to be anti-grammatical is meaningless?

Or the version itself is without meaning?

user19161

@RegDwightАΑA Oh you threw that one at me before.

RegDwight АΑA

@tchrist For all I know, the KGB, I mean the KJB, I mean teh KJV of teh B is chock-full of, with, and on "prefer X but Y"'s.

user19161

@tchrist So now there are ungrammatical, agrammatical and antigrammatical? Amazing.

tchrist

Add one more and you too can share in the tetragrammaticon!

RegDwight АΑA

Embrace the Time Cube.

user19161

8:18 PM

Actually when were you guys talking about Andrew's question? I cannot find it in the transcript.

RegDwight АΑA

@Robusto I usually prefer to read those a week after the fact, when all the questions have been asked, and most have been answered. But here I thought you might want to ask a question yourself.

ΜετάEd

@RegDwightАΑA Suggest you NAB a NIV or something.

tchrist

@RegDwightАΑA Actually, that is quite unlikely, given how carefully the KJV has been picked over by the Three Clerics of Oxenbridge.

user19161

@RegDwightАΑA The Cube were some of the worst movies.

Robusto

@RegDwightАΑA Nah. I didn't have anything particularly interesting to ask him that hadn't already been asked by the time I saw it.

KitFox

8:21 PM

OK, why is my CSS not replacing the style on my inputs like I've asked it to?

RegDwight АΑA

@Robusto oh. Then just check back in three days or something. Because it's only an hour old right now. That's nothing.

ΜετάEd

@KitFox It's just not !important.

user19161

Who watched The Cube and understands the movie? I don't get it at all.

tchrist

@RegDwightАΑA Notice carefully that my answer did not pretend that but was ungrammatical in any absolute sense.

RegDwight АΑA

@JasperLoy the first one was okay. Original.

Robusto

8:21 PM

@KitFox What kind of IE browser are you using?

KitFox

@Robusto It's FF.

tchrist

@Robusto A broken one, of course.

KitFox

!important works.

RegDwight АΑA

@tchrist when you say it didn't pretend, do you mean it instead bluntly stated outright?

ΜετάEd

@KitFox We'll just keep sprayin' and prayin'.

KitFox

8:22 PM

@RegDwightАΑA I liked it.

@ΜετάEd Thank you.

Robusto

@KitFox Then the issue is weight. Use a heavier combinator selector. Don't use the !important directive except for testing.

RegDwight АΑA

KitFox

OK. I have .pagebar input where .pagebar is a div class.

Robusto

12

A: Managing CSS Explosion

You should also understand the cascade, and weight, and how they work. I notice you are using only class identifiers (div.title). Did you know that you can use IDs as well, and that an ID carries more weight than a class? For example, #page1 div.title, #page1 ul, #page1 span { // rules } ...

Learn about weight.

tchrist

@RegDwightАΑA Compare and contrast: "This construct is ungrammatical in the English language" vs. "This construct is ungrammatical to me". Much though it pains me to recall this to you, I am not the English language.

RegDwight АΑA

8:24 PM

@tchrist lies, damn lies, and tchrist.

KitFox

@Robusto Yeah, I know. We've gone over it, and for some reason, I can't get it to stick.

Robusto

Well, then stick your ass in the spanking machine. Again.

RegDwight АΑA

@Robusto you're assuming that it has been unsticked in the mean time. For what reason would that possibly be?

KitFox

hangs head in shame

But I don't understand why it works fine for the nested div that is right next to it.

RegDwight АΑA

Well what does that div do differently?

Robusto

8:26 PM

@KitFox Cascades flow from the top down, not from side to side.

KitFox

Oh FFS, now I've loused that up. You know what? I shouldn't be trying to do this right now.

RegDwight АΑA

That's my job in a nutshell.

ΜετάEd

@Robusto Dammit. DAMMIT. I can't find the perfect illustration for this, from Mistress Masham's Repose.

KitFox

carefully puts buttons back

tchrist

@RegDwightАΑA When like mine, yours is a life of meticulous life-and-death negotiations with compilers bent upon your personal destruction and eternal damnation, you cannot but develop a certain knack for saying exactly what you mean, no more and no less, lest your pet genie should consign you to hell for an infelicitous turn of phrase or a misplaced semicolon.

RegDwight АΑA

8:28 PM

@tchrist TLD;R.

2

Robusto

@ΜετάEd You're supposed to post only things you can find. Read the rules again.

KitFox

Later my peeps.

user19161

@RegDwightАΑA Not funny at all.

tchrist

When like mine . . .

. . . yours is a life of meticulous life-and-death negotiations . . .

RegDwight АΑA

zzzzzzzzzzzz

tchrist

8:30 PM

with compilers

bent upon your personal destruction and eternal damnation . . .

. . . you cannot but develop a certain knack for saying exactly what you mean . . .

user19161

Reg says things that are not funny but they get starred very quickly...

tchrist

. . . no more and no less . . .

Robusto

Stop making Reg snore in chat. He drools when he snores and it gets all over everything.

tchrist

. . . lest your pet genie should consign you to hell . . .

. . . for an infelicitous turn of phrase or a misplaced semicolon. EOF

RegDwight АΑA

imdb.com/title/tt0163651/quotes?qt=qt0350937

Robusto

8:31 PM

Also, doling it out piecemeal doesn't make a bunch of boring stuff less boring. In case you wanted to know. Which you obviously didn't.

tchrist

I can run it again for the logic-impaired.

RegDwight АΑA

Please compile it first.

ΜετάEd

@tchrist I think I missed a packet. Can you retransmit using uucico?

"g" protocol preferred.

Robusto

Logic got nothin' to do with it.

tchrist

????H@

`I
??8__PAGEZERO__TEXT__text__TEXT????__cstring__TEXT\N\__const__TEXT?T?H__DATA __data__DATA __dyld__DATA __bss__DATA0__common__DATA8  ?__IMPORT0 __poin8__LINKEDIT@ 0@0#T2|p_table__IMPORT@0?@
                    P"?1,
                         /┤⎽⎼/┌␋␉/␍≤┌␍??Q߸?W┴?[?IPP?
                                                    4/┤⎽⎼/┌␋␉/┌␋␉±␌␌ ⎽.1.␍≤┌␋␉
                                                                              4⎺/┤⎽⎼/┌␋␉/┌␋␉S≤⎽├␊└.B.␍≤┌␋␉?3⎻┘??????]?\$??L$????ˉ\?????┤?\$
                                                                                                   …

RegDwight АΑA

8:33 PM

I only accept input in MoscowML.

tchrist

Done.

ΜετάEd

@tchrist Now you have two problems.

tchrist

Yes, Jamie?

RegDwight АΑA

@tchrist while that could pass for a cow, certainly not for a Mos one.

ΜετάEd

Screw the Moscow. The Dogcow is the only true Xxxcow.

user19161

8:35 PM

@tchrist Who is Jamie?

tchrist

@JasperLoy JWZ. Famous asshole response about regexes.

RegDwight АΑA

@ΜετάEd Screw, XXX, and dog all in one line. You're testing some filters?

tchrist

When someone has a problem, and think to use a regular expression to solve it, now they have two problems. --jwz

user19161

Guys, we now have 18,000 questions!

RegDwight АΑA

@JasperLoy zawinski. Or whatever he's spolen.

ΜετάEd

8:38 PM

؟?

That is ugly.

tchrist

@ΜετάEd \N{ARABIC QUESTION MARK}?

ΜετάEd

?¿

Robusto

@ΜετάEd What about La Vache Qui Rit?

tchrist

et qui parle espagnol, bien sûr?

Mahnax

@Robusto That cheese is pretty good.

ΜετάEd

8:39 PM

Fetchez la vache.

Robusto

@Mahnax Ha! That's a laugh!

tchrist

Je l’ai déjà fetchée. That’s what she has such a fetching look about her.

ΜετάEd

Moj lebdjelice je pun jegulja.

tchrist

Tu puns res.

@ΜετάEd Have you considered the erotimatiko here?

 ;  037E        GREEK QUESTION MARK
        = erotimatiko
        * sentence-final punctuation
        * 003B is the preferred character
        x (question mark - 003F)
        : 003B semicolon

Robusto

Media verba in mortua sumus.

Thanks, you've been great. But I have to go now.

tchrist

8:43 PM

What does erotimatiko look erotimechanical to me?

@Robusto You’re late on your res.

Best be offer.

ΜετάEd

@tchrist The erotimatiko is probably useful with romantic copulatives.

So the Greek question mark looks like a semicolon?

tchrist

@ΜετάEd Yup.

It's a singleton that normalizes to a semicolon.

ΜετάEd

Nice. And of course there's a separate codepoint for it. Yuck.

tchrist

Singletons are codepoints with NFD/NFC decomposition to another single codepoint.

So no matter which form a normalization you apply to it, all four produce a semicolon out at the end.

Cerberus

No, no.

tchrist

8:49 PM

There are others like that, too.

ΜετάEd

@tchrist You mean poop a semicolon out of a colon?

Cerberus

A singleton is a suit of only one card.

tchrist

U+0374 ‭ ʹ  GREEK NUMERAL SIGN
U+037E ‭ ;  GREEK QUESTION MARK
U+0387 ‭ ·  GREEK ANO TELEIA
U+1F71 ‭ ά  GREEK SMALL LETTER ALPHA WITH OXIA
U+1F73 ‭ έ  GREEK SMALL LETTER EPSILON WITH OXIA

For some reason, there are lots of Greek singletons.

The only non-Greek ones anyone is apt to see are probably:

U+2126 ‭ Ω OHM SIGN
U+212A ‭ K KELVIN SIGN
U+212B ‭ Å ANGSTROM SIGN

user19161

1

Q: Best word for "unable to change"

I'm looking for a word that is the opposite of "adaptable." I would like to say "unadaptable," but that's not a real word according to my dictionary. So, what's the best word out there for not-able-to-change? Update: I'm embarrassed to admit I was accidentally searching the Mac's built-in thesa...

word-choice

tchrist

@JasperLoy Dead.

user19161

8:51 PM

OK guys. Throw stones at me for answering this question.

tchrist

Biologists have a special word for stable: they use "dead".

ΜετάEd

throws stones

user19161

I did look up some dictionaries and it was not there. So that is an excuse for me to answer.

tchrist

Is there a special word for execution by being stoned to death?

Something lapid-?

RegDwight АΑA

@tchrist dead is not very stable. Wikipedia has a series of images on that.

ΜετάEd

8:52 PM

There is probably a word for a fear of execution by stoning.

user19161

@andrew To be fair, the word is not listed in smaller dictionaries, which is why I did not closevote as general reference. — Jasper Loy 47 secs ago

Mahnax

@tchrist Lapidation, IIRC.

cornbread ninja

@tchrist ask Shirley Jackson.

Cerberus

@tchrist Greek has words for stoning, yes.

Mainly leuô.

ΜετάEd

So lapidatophobia.

Cerberus

8:57 PM

You could say someone died a leusmic death...

Mitch

@ΜετάEd fear of quarries

ΜετάEd

@Cerberus Could you say someone died a stoner?

Mitch

someone living in a glass house?

ΜετάEd

※

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stoners.

tchrist

lapidation /læpɪˈdeɪʃən/.
Etymology: ad. L. lapidātiōn-em, n. of action f. lapidāre: see prec.
1. spec. The punishment of stoning to death.
2. gen. The action or process of throwing stones; pelting with stones.

@Mahnax You were right. Good show!

Cerberus

8:58 PM

@ΜετάEd You could use a word for hemp?

So … "' or '"?

@tchrist bows

@ΜετάEd Where?

Lapidation sounds OK, I have no objections.

Mitch

gives signal to start stoning

ΜετάEd

9:02 PM

@tchrist Vim digraphs vs. RFC 1345.

tchrist

looks around for the bong

cornbread ninja

@tchrist @Mitch is bogarting.

tchrist

@cornbreadninja BYOBud.

Mitch

dude...uh...

..my bad.

cornbread ninja

puts on Pink Floyd

Mitch

9:04 PM

did you know if you record the end of that album and then follow with the start...

it says...

tchrist

DOROTHY!

Mitch

'this is...

...where we began'

cornbread ninja

TOTO! (Zappa)

ΜετάEd

㈠㈦㈢㈨㈡㈤㈧㈥㈩㈣

Mitch

or something like that. It was kinda late when we did it.

ΜετάEd

9:05 PM

Does it make any sense that this is the sort order?

tchrist

@ΜετάEd I will give you one and only one opportunity to retract your question.

Mitch

@ΜετάEd That's Ji ni's number

cornbread ninja

@Mitch ha!

tchrist

3

2

1

0

Mitch

OK then so I was wrong.

cornbread ninja

9:06 PM

contact

867-5309

tchrist

THAT IT IS NOT THE BLOODY SORT ORDER YOUR MORIC!

Mitch

someone else's number.

cornbread ninja

@ΜετάEd yi, qiu, san, si, er, wu, jiu, shi--I've forgotten

Mitch

@ΜετάEd no...no sense at all. not pinyin, stroke, radical order or anything. yet.

where do you see that order?

ΜετάEd

@Mitch That's the order I get when I sort with Google Spreadsheet. And it seems to have done a great job of sorting just about any Unicode characters ... until now.

tchrist

9:13 PM

The sort order of ㈠㈦㈢㈨㈡㈤㈧㈥㈩㈣ is of course ㈠㈦㈢㈨㈡㈤㈧㈥㈩㈣ under the default UCA. It is ㈠㈦㈢㈨㈡㈤㈧㈥㈩㈣ under the Chinese (ideographs: big5 order) locale.

Mitch

so the question is why would big5 order them like that.

tchrist

It is ㈠㈦㈨㈡㈧㈩㈢㈤㈥㈣ by stroke.

And it is ㈧㈡㈨㈥㈦㈢㈩㈣㈤㈠ in Pinyin.

None of those is what you would think of "numerically ascending by referenced numeric value".

For example, in Pinyin:

$ ucsort --locale=zh__pinyin /tmp/id | unifmt | uniquote -v
\N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH EIGHT} \N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH TWO} \N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH NINE} \N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH SIX} \N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH SEVEN} \N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH THREE} \N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH TEN} \N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH FOUR} \N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH FIVE} \N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH ONE}

I checked all five Chinese collations, plus the default Unicode Collation Algorithm, and not a single one of them gives ONE ... TWO ... THREE ... ...

It is somewhat nontrivial to sort on their referenced numeric values, but possible.

ΜετάEd

The ordering I'm getting is "PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH ONE
()"
"PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH SEVEN
()"
"PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH THREE
()"
"PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH NINE
()"
"PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH TWO
()"
"PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH FIVE
()"
"PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH EIGHT
()"
"PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH SIX
()"
"PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH TEN
()"
"PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH FOUR
()"

tchrist

big5 order is

$ ucsort --locale=zh__big5han /tmp/id | unifmt | uniquote -v
\N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH ONE} \N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH SEVEN} \N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH THREE} \N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH NINE} \N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH TWO} \N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH FIVE} \N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH EIGHT} \N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH SIX} \N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH TEN} \N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH FOUR}

ΜετάEd

Ok then your big5 order is looking very close to the order I'm getting.

It's exactly on.

tchrist

9:18 PM

Ed, you are using the untailored default UCA, right?

$ ucsort /tmp/id | unifmt | uniquote -v
\N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH ONE} \N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH SEVEN} \N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH THREE} \N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH NINE} \N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH TWO} \N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH FIVE} \N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH EIGHT} \N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH SIX} \N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH TEN} \N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH FOUR}

ΜετάEd

@tchrist Good deity, you think I know what Google's doing under the covers in that?

tchrist

That is the normal Unicode algorithm, untailored to locale.

That is what you show as getting for output.

ΜετάEd

All I can do is report the output. The Google Spreadsheet sort algorithm is a black box.

tchrist

Well, then the answer is clear.

It is because that is the default ordering in the DUCET.

And you have not tailored your DUCET per any specific locale.

Although I've not found one yet that does what I presume you would like.

Holy cow, code point order is actually right for once!

U+3220 ‭ ㈠      1=NV  PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH ONE
U+3221 ‭ ㈡      2=NV  PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH TWO
U+3222 ‭ ㈢      3=NV  PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH THREE
U+3223 ‭ ㈣      4=NV  PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH FOUR
U+3224 ‭ ㈤      5=NV  PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH FIVE
U+3225 ‭ ㈥      6=NV  PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH SIX
U+3226 ‭ ㈦      7=NV  PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH SEVEN
U+3227 ‭ ㈧      8=NV  PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH EIGHT
U+3228 ‭ ㈨      9=NV  PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH NINE
U+3229 ‭ ㈩     10=NV  PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH TEN

So the DUCET does something else than that. I have no idea why.

ΜετάEd

Big 5 is apparently "arranged in two levels by total number of strokes then radical". I know nothing about ideographs; I presume this means the ordering I see has nothing to do with the semantics of the codepoints and everything to do with the number of strokes.

tchrist

9:22 PM

This is what you want, right? Code point order?

macbook# sort /tmp/id | uniquote -v
\N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH ONE}
\N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH TWO}
\N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH THREE}
\N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH FOUR}
\N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH FIVE}
\N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH SIX}
\N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH SEVEN}
\N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH EIGHT}
\N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH NINE}
\N{PARENTHESIZED IDEOGRAPH TEN}

That is also according to their numeric values (NV), although this is "accidental".

ΜετάEd

No, codepoint order is easy. Google Spreadsheet's sort is smart enough to sort together most symbols which mean the quantity 2. Except these ideographs.

tchrist

What are you using these for?

ΜετάEd

@tchrist I have no use for them except for completeness in a table I produced of codepoints and their associated compose sequences.

tchrist

There are 54 codepoints in the BMP whose NV=2.

I am pretty sure that the UCA does not sort by NV, ever.

In fact, it is in the spec that this outside its purview.

ΜετάEd

These codepoints have RFC 1345 character sequences, hence they are on my reference table.

tchrist

9:25 PM

I am afraid you are going to have to use a program.

ΜετάEd

Codepoint turns out to be a pretty poor ordering for such a table, as codepoints are arbitrary. So I'm looking for a better ordering. And of course I have very few sort options: I'm using Google Spreadsheet, so whatever it does is what I get.

tchrist

Because your Google Overloads did not think of it.

ΜετάEd

Exactly.

tchrist

No, codepoint order is pessimal in almost all possible cases.

This being an exception.

cornbread ninja

Protip: don't try to delete more than a few hundred lines of a Google spreadsheet at a time.

ΜετάEd

9:27 PM

@tchrist Right. Funny. Sort of.

tchrist

This is the sort order of the 54 BMP codepoints whose NV=2:

2 ² ٢ ۲ ߂ २ ২ ੨ ૨ ୨ ௨ ౨ ౺ ౽ ೨ ൨ ๒ ໒ ༢ ၂ ႒ ፪ ២ ៲ ᠒ ᥈ ᧒ ᪂ ᪒ ᭒ ᮲ ᱂ ᱒ ₂ ② ⑵ ⒉ ⓶ ❷ ➁ ➋ ꘢ ꣒ ꤂ ꧒ ꩒ ꯲ ２ Ⅱ ⅱ ꛧ ㆓ ㈡㊁

The UCA does not do things as you might like between scripts, either, although the newest revision is trying to address that.

If you want both NV=2 and NV=3, they sort this way:

2 ² ٢ ۲ ߂ २ ২ ੨ ૨ ୨ ௨ ౨ ౺ ౽ ೨ ൨ ๒ ໒ ༢ ၂ ႒ ፪ ២ ៲ ᠒ ᥈ ᧒ ᪂ ᪒ ᭒ ᮲ ᱂ ᱒ ₂ ② ⑵ ⒉ ⓶ ❷ ➁ ➋ ꘢ ꣒ ꤂ ꧒ ꩒ ꯲ ２ 3 ³ ٣ ۳ ߃ ३ ৩ ੩ ૩ ୩ ௩ ౩ ౻ ౾ ೩ ൩ ๓ ໓ ༣ ၃ ႓ ፫ ៣ ៳ ᠓ ᥉ ᧓ ᪃ ᪓ ᭓ ᮳ ᱃ ᱓ ₃ ③ ⑶ ⒊ ⓷ ❸ ➂ ➌ ꘣ ꣓ ꤃ ꧓ ꩓ ꯳ ３ Ⅲ ⅲ Ⅱ ⅱ ꛧ ꛨ ㆔ ㈢㊂ ㆓ ㈡㊁

The Romans are especially troubling.

Cerberus

The problem solved itself when the Empire fell.

Haven't you read the news?

user19161

@mahnax Today here is my birthday. I will have some wine later...

Spare Oom

@JasperLoy Happy birthday. You're old enough to drink now, or were you already allowed?

ΜετάEd

@tchrist What you often want in a spreadsheet is a sort that recognizes numeric order. I suppose I could bug report it to Google.

cornbread ninja

9:34 PM

@JasperLoy hooray!

ΜετάEd

I should also look and see if they provide sort options in their macro language.

Mahnax

@JasperLoy Oh, happy birthday! I hadn't noticed because it's only the 22nd of August here.

cornbread ninja

7 hours ago, by cornbread ninja

@Gigili you're older than you've ever been / and now you're even older

Mahnax

@SpareOom He was already allowed.

Cerberus

@JasperLoy Happy birthday!!

user19161

9:35 PM

@SpareOom I am quite old actually. :-)

Cerberus

@Mahnax I plead the same reason.

Spare Oom

@JasperLoy What do you mean by quite old?

Cerberus

Over 20.

user19161

@SpareOom Well, that's a secret! :-)

Mahnax

@Cerberus That's fair.

Spare Oom

9:36 PM

@JasperLoy Understood. :D

Cerberus

@Mahnax phew

@JasperLoy I'm making pancakes, want one?

Mahnax

Woo, the audit's cancelled!

dances

Cerberus

Of your work place?

user19161

@Mahnax What audit?

Spare Oom

@Cerberus That makes most of us quite old!

Cerberus

9:38 PM

Yes.

'Tis so.

Mahnax

4 hours ago, by Mahnax

Speaking of work, we're having an audit at work today.

Spare Oom

That'll work.

user19161

@spare I noticed you have zero posts on your other 8 accounts! I actually recently deleted mine with little activity...

Spare Oom

@JasperLoy I just added them recently (sort of like bookmarks) so I could go look at questions and answers.

ΜετάEd

Looks like the best I can do is put the table into a GAS database and sort by "numeric" or "lexical". However those might be defined.

user19161

9:42 PM

@SpareOom LOL.

Spare Oom

@JasperLoy I know I asked a question in Ask different, but I must not have been logged in.

@JasperLoy I'm kind of backwards, I guess.

user19161

@SpareOom Oh dear. If you have an account there you may ask a moderator to merge it for you if you want.

Spare Oom

@JasperLoy It's not important, is it?

Mahnax

Interesting read.

cornbread ninja

@Mahnax yeesh.

makes sandwich

Mahnax

9:46 PM

Oh, food. I should eat something before I go to work. Bye!

ΜετάEd

@Mahnax "You should not buy it." Except of course that you'll be forced to buy it, if you need a Windows PC.

Spare Oom

@ΜετάEd We're supposed to be getting a new computer at work. I think I'll let my assistant have the new one.

user19161

@Mahnax Every OS is being modified to be suitable for mobile devices and touch interfaces. The new Windows reminds me of the new Linux interface.

user19161

If I were to spend money on a new computer with OS installed, I would definitely want Windows 8.

user19161

It's good to have a fresh look sometimes.

Robusto

9:50 PM

@Cerberus There you go with that "empire fell" nonsense again. Everyone knows it was canceled due to poor ratings.

tchrist

@ΜετάEd Talk to me about this later. Send me email to tchrist@perl.com if you would like. If you are amenable to a custom sort, if you give me the flat text files, or CSV or whatever, I could easily make it do anything you might like. I have to run now, though, not back for hours.

RegDwight АΑA

CU

Cerberus

@Robusto But it got good ratings.

And look what came afterwards.

Robusto

@Cerberus From whom? Not from the Christians, who took over the empire afterwards.

ΜετάEd

@tchrist That's a very generous offer. But I am going to stay "off the shelf".

Cerberus

9:51 PM

@Robusto No, they took over the Empire while it existed.

Robusto

@Cerberus Well, sorta. But you'll have to admit there was a hiatus while the Vandals and Visigoths did a tap-dance on what was formerly most of the empire. Oh, and the Huns. And anyone else who wanted a piece.

user19161

@RegDwightАΑA Good night. You have been sleeping earlier it seems, which is good.

Cerberus

An hiatus in what sense?

Robusto

As soon as Constantine got hold of the empire he skedaddled to the east, leaving Rome to its own devices. Meanwhile, all the former possessions fell away.

Cerberus

The West was Christianized long before it fell.

Robusto

9:55 PM

Not all of it.

Cerberus

Never was all of Europe Christianized.

In any case, Christians did not wish for the Empire to fall at all.

> Apple has apparently removed videos of its series of three divisive "Genius" ads from both its website and its YouTube channel. The move, first noticed by MacRumors, suggests that Apple wasn't happy with the overall reaction to the ads, which was largely critical of the fact that the ads appeared to paint Mac users as "clueless."

arstechnica.com/apple/2012/08/…

Mac users clueless?

Shocking.

Robusto

Stop. We're not all clueless.

Some of us, like me, happen to know everything worth knowing.

Cerberus

No doubt.

I can't say you are generally sheep like.

Robusto

I used a Mac when to do so labeled one as a heretic, a pariah.

Cerberus

But many of my friends are clueless Mac sheeple, alas.

Robusto

10:00 PM

But I also used a PC then too.

Cerberus

In the old days, Mac users were perhaps less sheepish.

Although I had no idea about prices back then.

Spare Oom

@Cerberus I'm a longtime Mac user, and yes, I'm clueless, but I like my Mac.

Cerberus

Haha.

I like your honesty.

But I bet you would have liked your PC too, if you had owned one.

Spare Oom

I'm clueless about Windows too, which I use at work.

Cerberus

You don't know how to operate Windows?

Spare Oom

10:03 PM

PC yeah, clueless about all computers, actually.

Cerberus

Ah OK.

Spare Oom

I use windows, but I didn't have to set it up myself.

Am I the lone non-programer in this English room?

Cerberus

No.

I am no such animal either.

Mitch

What is your nonprogrammer state?

user19161

What's so nice about a Mac other than the apple logo?

Spare Oom

10:06 PM

It's supposed to be intuitive.

user19161

And a Mac defaults to red. I prefer Windows which defaults to blue.

Spare Oom

They didn't used to get viruses either.

user19161

And yes, I know you can change the colour easily.

user19161

@SpareOom Reminds me of the question here on "didn't used to".

Spare Oom

@Mitch I'm not sure I understand the question. I took a programming class in college, but have forgotten everything and never had to use it.

user19161

10:08 PM

22

Q: What's the negation of "I used to be"? Surely not "I didn't used to be"?

What is the negative form of "I used to be"? I often hear "I didn't used to be" but that sounds awfully wrong in my ears.

grammar past-tense negation

user19161

I would not use "didn't used to" myself in writing, and I don't think I have used it in speaking either.

Cerberus

@Mitch Whose? And what states are there?

Spare Oom

It's natural to me to speak thus, but I don't know that I write it much. I had to say it to myself to see if it was right after I typed it.

Dinner time. Bye y'all.

Cerberus

Bya.

user19161

@SpareOom Bye!

ΜετάEd

10:37 PM

Shhhhhhh. Nobody wake the Balrog.

3

Cerberus

10:54 PM

woosh

Look what you've done.

There it is.

ΜετάEd

sSⓈⓢśŚṥṤŝŜšŠṧṦṡṠşŞṣṢṩṨſ℠ßﬆﬅ.

Cerberus

That worked.

It didn't hear us.

cornbread ninja

puts Balrog's paw in a glass of warm water

ΜετάEd

11:12 PM

@cornbreadninja MORGOTH: You cursed brat! Look what you've done! I'm melting! melting! Oh, what a world! What a world! Who would have thought a good little girl like you could destroy my beautiful wickedness? Oooooh, look out! I'm going! Oooooh! Ooooooh!

user19161

@ΜετάEd Now you are engaging in the art of typography as well!

ΜετάEd

@JasperLoy The abuse of typography, maybe.

Robusto

11:29 PM

@Cerberus You are a fake such animal. You use AHK.

KitFox

11:42 PM

@ΜετάEd Actually it is a dupe.

4

Q: City names with articles

Typically we don't use articles with city names, e.g. "Seattle" and not "the Seattle." I know at least one exception though which is The Hague. Are there any other city names which we use with the article?

articles proper-nouns list-request

14

Q: Using the definite article before a country/state name

The Punjab is a rich state. Is it correct to use the before Punjab?

definite-article

Well, I suppose the dupeish doesn't specify city, but same thing really.

user19161

@Robusto I thought you mean you are such a fake animal at first.

Robusto

"I thought you mean ..."?

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