English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

ΜετάEd

9:02 PM

gotcha.

user19161

9:15 PM

@cornbreadninja Which pineapple?

cornbread ninja

@JasperLoy the pineapple! Paul.

haircut time!

user19161

@cornbreadninja OK! This will go nicely with the braces removal!

cornbread ninja

@JasperLoy :D

user19161

They deleted my unwanted accounts finally. Yay!

Jez

52

Q: When is it appropriate to use 'that' as opposed to 'which'?

When is it appropriate to use 'that' as opposed to 'which'?

Yuk @ accepted answer

"that and which are basically the same when introducing integrated relative clauses"??

fuck's sake.

user19161

9:21 PM

@Jez So what's wrong with it?

Jez

that is restrictive, which is not.

consider:

> We sold the car that was red.

> We sold the car which was red.

in the former, there may be many cars, one of them red. in the latter, only one car, and it was red.

the latter can be rephrased into two sentences, one of which is "We sold the car.", without losing meaning. the former cannot.

user19161

@Jez The second sentence then has two meanings. One of them is the same meaning as the first, which is what the answerer intends.

Jez

I disagree. people who think the meanings can be the same are just being lazy.

i always consider them different.

user19161

"We sold the car, which was red" is the alternative meaning. But the comma may be omitted though that introduces ambiguity.

Jez

don't agree.

user19161

9:25 PM

What I am saying is, the first has one meaning and the second has two meanings.

user19161

One of the meanings of the second is the same as that of the first.

Jez

i know you're saying that, i don't agree

user19161

The other meaning can be written in two ways, one of which is the second sentence.

user19161

@Jez So you are saying that the second sentence can never mean the first?

Jez

it can, if you redefine English

i don't see the point; in fact, i see utility in having a difference

user19161

9:27 PM

Well, then I disagree with you. If I have many cars and wanted to sell only the red one, I would still say "I sold the car which was red".

Jez

well don't. :-)

start saying "that is red"

user19161

In fact, if you check dictionaries, you will see that that is essentially what they say as well.

user19161

Let me give you a British dictionary then.

ΜετάEd

young friends and old whiskey

Jez

dictionaries describe how some people use the language, and aren't generally prescriptive

user19161

9:29 PM

oald8.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/dictionary/which

Jez

some people use the language crappily

user19161

But who is one individual to say his is the correct version?

user19161

Language is possessed by the society, not any individual.

user19161

When enough people start doing things differently, this is picked up and the grammar books are rewritten.

Jez

well, thanks to my votes, the highest-voted answer there now says that there is a difference. :-)

user19161

9:32 PM

@Jez OK, I +1 since you -1.

ΜετάEd

9:44 PM

Hmm.

tchrist

@Jez You’re making this crud up.

Don't do that.

Don’t make me go all Fowler on you.

@JasperLoy No, you’re right and he’s wrong. He’s the one who has redefined English to make crap up.

Jez

@tchrist I'm not making it up. the answers to the question itself contain people stating this usage, and dictionaries that describe it. I'm saying this usage is useful and superior IMHO.

tchrist

@Jez Superior is an awfully high-falutin’ word for better.

And you speak nonsense. I can see I do have go all Fowler on your ass.

Moment.

ΜετάEd

10:00 PM

@Jez Well sure. At least at that moment.

Mitch

@simchona not sure. the question itself is just unfathomable. Even if for a list, what list? Even if for discussion, what discussion?

tchrist

@Jez “Relations between that and which. What grammarians say should be has perhaps less influence on what shall be than even the more modest of them realize; usage evolves itself little disturbed by their likes and dislikes.”

Jez

i fail to see why you wish to celebrate sloppiness and ambiguity in English, but all i can say is that I don't share your passion

tchrist

@Jez Upon Fowler advising which only and ever as a descriptive relative clause and using that only and ever as a restrictive relative: “Some there are who follow this practice now; but it would be idle to pretend that it is the practice either of the most or of the best writers.”

Jez

eh?

tchrist

10:11 PM

Your idle pretensions — in the words of Fowler, not me — are worth nothing to the most or the best of our writers.

Amongst whom you clearly by Fowler’s words do not number.

Jez

and ur speling iz worfliss to mi. when i spel lyk i want 2 i am just as smrt as u, who r u to say otherwize

lol, how is that offensive?

tchrist

So get off your prescriptivist high horse and return to describing how people actually speak, so that you will do the community far less harm.

KitFox

What's all this then?

ΜετάEd

I was wondering too.

tchrist

Or I will be forced to cite from the most and the best of our writers who show that what you write is not what they write.

KitFox

10:15 PM

Is everything OK in here?

tchrist

Jez was telling Jasper ridiculous things.

And then he started becoming insulting.

Jez

i was telling Jasper what the highest rated answer said

KitFox

@tchrist Who? Jasper or Jez?

Jez

then i used lolspeek

KitFox

Oh. Was it your lolspeek that got flagged? I missed it.

ΜετάEd

10:16 PM

Mommy! Brother hit me back!

tchrist

You were telling him that it required redefining English to use which restrictively.

KitFox

So are we all sorted, or do y'all need intervention?

tchrist

Fowler says that the best of our writers do so. So who is redefining English?

ΜετάEd

@KitFox It all strikes me as heated, but not offensive.

tchrist

Jasper is not always on sound and certain ground with English, although he is very very good.

ΜετάEd

10:17 PM

They'll sort it, I think.

tchrist

It is not right for a native speaker to go all prescriptivist on him in a way that does not match up with how people speak and write.

Lest he should believe you.

Jez

im saying that the way I, and many others, speak and write, does draw a distinction

tchrist

You have to be careful what you say.

That's nice.

KitFox

I'm confused. Jasper isn't even here.

tchrist

You've redefined English then, you’re saying?

Jez

10:19 PM

i don't know whether there was originally a difference or not

they're different words, so i suspect there was

tchrist

@KitFox I suggest you begin reading here:

58 mins ago, by Jez

fuck's sake.

KitFox

An hour's worth of transcript?

tchrist

No

59 mins ago, by Jez

fuck's sake.

KitFox

59 minutes of transcript?

tchrist

57 mins ago, by Jasper Loy

@Jez The second sentence then has two meanings. One of them is the same meaning as the first, which is what the answerer intends.

57 mins ago, by Jez

I disagree. people who think the meanings can be the same are just being lazy.

Jez was spouting nonsense to Jasper, and not even doing so nicely.

KitFox

10:21 PM

@tchrist @Jez Is this your first interaction with each other?

Jez

i believe so

tchrist

I stepped in with quotes from Fowler saying that what Jez is mouthing is not the practice of the most, nor the best, of our writers.

KitFox

OK then. I would kindly advise that you both drop it. Take a walk for a bit maybe.

tchrist

I do not think he should mislead a non-native speaker with his own agenda. It is not fair.

KitFox

Jasper is not a NNS.

tchrist

10:23 PM

Hm, I asked him and he said he didn't know.

If he is a NS, then it's even worse to tell him he is wrong in this way.

Since it's his language, too.

It just wasn't nice, Kit.

KitFox

It is inconsequential in the scheme of things.

tchrist

55 mins ago, by Jasper Loy

In fact, if you check dictionaries, you will see that that is essentially what they say as well.

KitFox

I like that you are concerned about it.

tchrist

55 mins ago, by Jez

some people use the language crappily

KitFox

But the two of them know each other.

tchrist

10:24 PM

I started out for fuck's sake.

KitFox

As do I.

If Jasper felt upset, he could have flagged it himself.

I think it is kind of you to try to defend him, but I think it is unwarranted.

You should, by all means, present your perspective in contrast to Jez's.

But everyone is entitled to his own opinion.

tchrist

Jasper had stepped out for a breather.

That wasn't what was flagged.

& thn he strtd n on me wth hz txtspk n a wy tht it wld B hrd 4 me nt 2 fnd prsnly nsltng, whch wz hz fl ntnt & prps.

KitFox

@Jez, don't antagonize @tchrist please.

Jez

didn't intend to

tchrist

I mean, come on, look at this:

14 mins ago, by Jez

and ur speling iz worfliss to mi. when i spel lyk i want 2 i am just as smrt as u, who r u to say otherwize

That wasn’t meant to antagonize?

Luke

10:27 PM

-1

Q: What is the plural of motto?

Should I say my mottoes are...? Is there a better way of saying this?

grammatical-number british-english

tchrist

How is that possible?

Luke

Completely general reference.

KitFox

@tchrist I think he was trying to make a point.

ΜετάEd

@tchrist I took it as making a point about where things lead if nothing is prescribed.

I am not saying I agree or disagree with the point, but it didn't strike me as an attempt to antagonize.

tchrist

Ok, let me try.

Jez, what you are saying is completely worthless.

You are not so smart.

And you can't spell.

So I don't have to listen to you.

KitFox

10:30 PM

Good. Now how do you feel?

Better?

tchrist

No, it's a shitty thing to say.

KitFox

Well, then why did you say it?

tchrist

To show you how nasty it is.

To see whether you thought it was something that I should have said.

Perhaps you did.

Jez

i found it funny

tchrist

If you think that was the right way to be, then I will withdrawal my object.

And I will start being the same complete asshole as Jez is being.

KitFox

10:31 PM

Jez can take a lot of pushback. He gives as well as he can take it.

tchrist

And won't the world be a better place?

No, he never gives.

He is overrighteous and pushy, and an asshole.

KitFox

His expressions are honest, and he doesn't balk if you give it back to him.

So @Jez, please don't be an asshole to @tchrist.

tchrist

I cannot live that way.

KitFox

I have to put my son to bed, so please play nice while I am gone.

tchrist

And I should not be forced to stoop to his scurrilous level just to communicate.

ΜετάEd

10:33 PM

35 mins ago, by tchrist

And you speak nonsense. I can see I do have go all Fowler on your ass.

tchrist

Please, please put your son to bed.

ΜετάEd

@tchrist You were kind of modeling that behavior for him, you know.

KitFox

@tchrist You are not so compelled.

I had better not come back to an argument. looks stern

5

tchrist

I thought people were expected to be respectful of others.

This goes nowhere good.

ΜετάEd

@tchrist My general rules for myself are like the general rules for Internet protocols. I am careful what I send and generous about what I accept.

And when that doesn't work, there's always Bunnahabhain.

tchrist

10:38 PM

@ΜετάEd So you don’t think Milton will do much to justify Jez’s ways to Man, you’re saying?

user19161

Wait, are you guys quarrelling over the discussion just now? There wasn't any argument though. It was just a discussion, the way I see it.

ΜετάEd

@tchrist I have to admit I do not know my Milton.

user19161

So relax everyone, you are all too tensed!

ΜετάEd

I am given to understand that he wrote Paradise Lost after he got married. When his wife died, he wrote Paradise Regained.

2

tchrist

@ΜετάEd It’s famous quote. Oh you don’t know it. Just a sec.

> Malt does more than Milton can to justify God’s ways to man.

When our Overlords move in mysterious ways, there are days that reasoned erudition fails, and our only refuge is the bottle.

Or so I take it to mean.

And you were — completely nicely!!! — saying something that brought the old quote to mind.

ΜετάEd

10:43 PM

@tchrist I might as well say that malt is proof that God exists and wants us to be happy.

tchrist

@ΜετάEd Would you stop being so exquisitely witty!

Single malt? mmmm

Proof.

Wort.

“Please, take my Wharf!”

user19161

10:46 PM

-1

Q: What is the plural of motto?

Should I say my mottoes are...? Is there a better way of saying this?

grammatical-number british-english

user19161

GR

tchrist

GRR

ΜετάEd

@JasperLoy I used up my close votes hours ago.

I used up my downvotes hours ago.

user19161

@ΜετάEd Well done! Which probably means you used up your votes since I believe there is no separate count for up and down.

ΜετάEd

@JasperLoy Sadly, yes.

I am starting to really regret the Greek letters in my name. Apparently I cannot search for my own past posts.

user19161

10:48 PM

@ΜετάEd You should try to vote on 10 questions first and then answers to get the maximum of 40 votes.

tchrist

I wonder why he thinks there might be something fancier than mottos (as Dickens used) or mottoes (as Gilbert used).

ΜετάEd

@JasperLoy What does that get me?

(he asks, selfishly)

user19161

@ΜετάEd You can change in 30 days, or shorter if you create a new account, edit from there and copy to all.

tchrist

@ΜετάEd Are you sure?

Can you search for mine?

I can't fill anything in to the said-by-whom field.

user19161

@ΜετάEd It gets you higher ranking in the voters list.

ΜετάEd

10:49 PM

@tchrist yes.

The autocomplete in the search box doesn't like my name. Oh. I bet I can paste my user number.

user19161

@ΜετάEd It's OK. 30 days will pass soon.

ΜετάEd

@JasperLoy I didn't know there was a 30 day minimum.

tchrist

Try this.

ΜετάEd

But it does turn out I can paste my user number. So I am no longer regretful.

user19161

@ΜετάEd And many don't know the method to change it before 30 days, what I wrote above.

tchrist

10:51 PM

You should be able to type the user number, too, I should think.

I can't type any users.

I mean, I do.

But then it brings me results as though I didn't, and clears the field.

Is that normal?

user19161

0

Q: What, if any, and if not, how much?

I guess what I'm trying to say is, "How much, and if not, when?"

questions

user19161

NR

ΜετάEd

@JasperLoy thanks.

The real kicker was I couldn't search for the text I wanted to find, either.

Aug 2 at 21:03, by MetaEd

Встретимся под столом!

Which is so late it's not funny anymore.

tchrist

Why couldn’t you search for it?

I’ve searched for non-ASCII before.

I just can’t search by who-said-it.

ΜετάEd

@tchrist Because I couldn't remember it.

tchrist

10:57 PM

There is that.

0

Q: Using 'very' with a noun

Are these the correct ways to use very with a noun? She is the very girl I want. On the very year of 2012, come the end of the world. This is the very company everyone want to work for. What I understand is that very can be used to emphasize the importance of a noun.