English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

RegDwight АΑA

20:00

@simchona slander, slave, sleuthing, sleeve. Sky, skull, skillfully, skeleton.

At least someone finally posted booba/kiki.

simchona

@RegDwightАΑA The idea is cool.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightАΑA It's strikes me as unlikely that the sound symbolism thing is true. There are just so many counterexamples

simchona

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Agreed. There are groups of words which are similar, but it's not really supporting his premise I think

He's going for "always" instead of "sometimes"

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, I guess even if his premise is wrong, the phenomenon does have a name

simchona

He's going for wherever they appear though

Robusto

20:06

@simchona And he didn't expect it. Hmm.

simchona

@Robusto Not from you.

RegDwight АΑA

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 in fact sometimes it's the other way round, like with mama, which people around the globe consciously force themselves to take to mean "mother" even though the baby that utters it doesn't mean any such thing. It's a bias.

0

Q: Is it correct to say "much more easily"

I want to say that something is done in an easier way than something else, but not just more, much more Saying much easier is not exactly what I look for, as I'm not trying to say it's much easier I'm trying to say it can be done in a much easier way So I thought saying It can ...

grammaticality

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightАΑA Well... I always thought it was just used as a word for mother because it was easily said by a baby... however, that doesn't mean that it doesn't seed sound-symbolism for any baby taught that "mama = your mother"

RegDwight АΑA

I think we covered the "adverbs are allowed to modify other adverbs" thing before.

This is close but no cigar.

MetaEd

@simchona I'm taking the bullet for you.

simchona

20:17

@MetaEd I noticed. And I appreciate it :]

Hi @SonicTheHedgehog

Sonic The Hedgehog

@sim Shh. I'm hiding. and Hi.

simchona

@SonicTheHedgehog Hiding in plain sight.

Sonic The Hedgehog

@Sim Th-they are after me.

looks around with wild eyes

RegDwight АΑA

Looking at some questions that get posted it hurts to think of all the questions I have not posted myself after spending five minutes on Google...

Sonic The Hedgehog

@Reg post them now.

RegDwight АΑA

20:22

Ha.

Some of them are in the transcript, actually.

Teehee, Tim actually included EC's Facebook/Twitter in that meta post.

tchrist

@RegDwightАΑA Questions posted to ELU in general, or questions posed to our would-be overlords?

Robusto

@MetaEd How dare you laugh at Bozo the Clown! It's people like you who keep talented artists down.

RegDwight АΑA

@tchrist the main site.

MetaEd

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Right. The word "mother" basically means "want nipple".

RegDwight АΑA

As far as the THC is concerned, I managed to squeeze in everything I had.

tchrist

20:27

Oh well, I’ve just done my first part. Or tried.

MetaEd

I finally added 2 and 2 and got 4. Earlier I was wondering about all the discussion of tetrahydrocannabinol.

RegDwight АΑA

Glad to have been of help.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

time for me to get going.

MetaEd

You were the problem, mostly.

RegDwight АΑA

CU'aes.

MetaEd

20:29

And I love that about you.

RegDwight АΑA

@MetaEd That's what I meant.

There is enough straightforwardness in the world today. This here is a jungley island of thought. Bring a machete or you won't have fun.

Robusto

Commutin' time. byee.

RegDwight АΑA

BAI

tchrist

@Robusto hardly brisk or quick > hardly brisk nor quick

RegDwight АΑA

22 hours ago, by Robusto

@KronoS I'll be the judge of what sounds weird.

MetaEd

20:33

@tchrist Get. Out. Of. My. Head. You. Nuns.

tchrist

la-la-las

RegDwight АΑA

Hahaha. I wish I were allowed to share flags. Some things are just hysterical.

tchrist

You mean it is hysterical that it got flagged, or that the extra explanation supplied for the flagging reads humorously?

RegDwight АΑA

Actually, both.

tchrist

I infer that that means it isn’t going to mysteriously vaporize.

RegDwight АΑA

20:36

In terms of absurdity and hilariousness it's on par with MetaEd getting called a dick the other day.

tchrist

Hey, some of my best friends are dicks.

MetaEd

I resemble that remark.

simchona

@simchona The letter "s" is involved in a number of examples. Please, see what I have already suggested to MetaEd. And, please, do not make fun of issues that you have not, as it seems, the slightest knowledge. — Carlo_R. 31 secs ago

The gloves are off.

tchrist

@simchona You know this is just going to engender a hundred-comment chain of drivel from Carlito. Is that really appropriate on a closed question — or any, for that matter? He should take it to meta.

simchona

@tchrist I'm not going to answer him.

Sonic The Hedgehog

20:45

We could ask 4chan to track him down.

Than spam his number.

Or make his life miserable.

Etc. They are famous for it.

simchona

@MetaEd - In this way, you do not show a lot. Do not waste your time studying sociology on wikpedia. Study, if anything, the English language. — Carlo_R. 43 secs ago

MetaEd

@SonicTheHedgehog Let's not.

Sonic The Hedgehog

@Meta Why not?

simchona

Sorry you got pulled into this, Meta.

RegDwight АΑA

@simchona put the gloves back on.

Jul 27 at 10:59, by RegDwight АΑA

As my mother used to say to me and my brother, whoever's smarter will shut up first.

simchona

20:48

@RegDwightАΑA I'm not talking. Just following the conversation. Like ping pong.

MetaEd

@simchona I have thick skin.

RegDwight АΑA

@simchona Well, what do you think happens if you don't pong and just leave him with his ping?

MetaEd

@RegDwightАΑA Ayup.

tchrist

That question is going to end up with more flags than a rave.

simchona

@RegDwightАΑA I'm letting him ping. I stopped ponging. He's just ponging Meta now.

MetaEd

20:49

It's too bad. He's not going to learn anything as long as he perceives any disagreement as a personal attack.

RegDwight АΑA

Yes, a shame.

MetaEd

@simchona Not me. He tried to make it personal with me too, and that's where I stop playing.

RegDwight АΑA

Oops, I have actually answered a question about "much more" at one point! Silly me, I don't even remember.

simchona

I do know very well how flagging.

MetaEd

I'll argue a point all day, but I won't exchange insults.

tchrist

20:51

And if it’s just one way, not exchange?

RegDwight АΑA

We still have the stack part.

Some people stack, others exchange.

MetaEd

@tchrist Well once an insult has been flung the argument is over. There's no point in pursuing the argument, and there's certainly no point in replying in kind, so it's time to move on.

RegDwight АΑA

Speaking of which, I gotta finish the Harry Potter LEGO bus.

BBL

MetaEd

I suspect Carlo is quite young and fairly intelligent. Which are good traits; they just interfere with cultivating one's sense of humility.

KitFox

@MetaEd Whatever, dick. :-P

MetaEd

20:55

giggles

KitFox

See what I did there?

pounce

MetaEd

My workplace is uncomfortable.

KitFox

Try loosening your belt.

@tchrist You know I was just joshing you earlier, right?

RegDwight АΑA

@MetaEd tell your fine coworker lady to make it more comfortable. Like, plants, a chocolate fountain. Cushions. Stuff like that.

cornbread ninja

Someone please explain to me why Carlo doesn't just get banned.

4

MetaEd

21:03

Встретимся под столом!

cornbread ninja

Oh, well, okay then.

slut, sliver, slouch

Meysam

what's the meaning of "wind up" in: Any extras on here you might wind up needing?

cornbread ninja

end up

need after all

Cerberus

@SpareOom: Haha, that is horrible!

cornbread ninja

will turn out to need

Cerberus

21:09

I hate heat more than anything.

cornbread ninja

@Cerberus it's been ~40C here everyday for at least a month.

Cerberus

Ahhh!

Where are you?

Do you have air-conditioning everywhere?

tchrist

@Cerberus Humidity is worse. So long as the temperature plus humidity is under 100, you’re fine. Similarly if you’re driving without AC: just roll your windows down and drive faster than the temperature.

Cerberus

@tchrist Haha, nice math.

Meysam

@cornbreadninja Where?

cornbread ninja

21:13

:D

Cerberus

I know people talk about how dry heat is not so bad. I strongly disagree. It is true that high humidity makes it even worse, but the bulk of the problem is caused by 1.) air temperature and 2.) exposure to the sun.

tchrist

I learned this driving out on I-70 over the border into Utah one summer when it was well over 100. There’s a sign at the west end of Green River that reads "Next services 117 miles — AND WE MEAN IT!". This tells you two things.

First, that you probably won’t see any cops till you get to the other side.

Second, you’ll be there in about an hour.

Cerberus

As to driving with open windows: it is somewhat cooler than with windows closed, but it is still excruciatingly hot at anything over 25 °C if it's sunny. And the poisonous smoke/gases you will inhale are nasty.

KitFox

sighs

Robusto

@tchrist Panted the pedant.

KitFox

21:14

makes plan to raise children to be smarter and funnier than @tchrist, then put them head to head in chat room of the future

2

tchrist

@Cerberus I think you have to convert to English if you want my math magic to work for you.

Robusto

@KitFox What if tchrist is raising children of his own?

Cerberus

@tchrist What was this about?

@tchrist Never!

KitFox

@Robusto Damn it.

Well, maybe I am a better parent.

tchrist

@Cerberus Por dónde fueres, haz lo que vieres.

Cerberus

21:16

Vieres?

Live? See?

tchrist

Future subjunctive of ver < vedere.

Same tense as the previous clause.

Which is actually go not be; only context sets them apart, the forms are identical.

Cerberus

Ah OK.

tchrist

It works because of the ser/estar split. Can’t ser somewhere, so that can’t be ser.

Cerberus

I don't know the various stems of ver, so I guessed.

tchrist

Past and future subjunctive take their stems from 3p preterite.

Which are often irregular.

Cerberus

21:19

I don't know any stems.

MetaEd

@tchrist Is the ser/estar split something you just have to learn by rote for different situations, or is there a simple rule?

tchrist

Yes you do.

Cerberus

I just use my intuition, which is often enough in context.

Nope.

tchrist

It’s not by rote. It’s by understanding.

Cerberus

I couldn't name a single stem of ver.

cornbread ninja

21:19

@Meysam did I shed any light?

tchrist

The issue is that 3p inflexional ending is -ieron.

Cerberus

But I will recognize many forms when I see them, especially in context.

Meysam

@cornbreadninja You did! Thanks yo

MetaEd

@tchrist Help me understand.

cornbread ninja

@Meysam oh, good. You're welcome.

KitFox

21:21

1s1, 2s2, 3p6

tchrist

fuera comenzara hubiera quisiera dijera supiera viniera debiera estuviera &c

@MetaEd Estar is statist; it’s about qualities, usually transient ones. Position is a transient thing.

A person is/estar angry, but a person is/ser a redhead.

See the difference?

That man is/ser your father, and he is/estar close by right now.

KitFox

Cake.

tchrist

You are/estar in America, but you are/ser an American.

So you just get a feel for these things after a while.

There are occasional minimal pairs that mean different things. Estar listo is to be ready, while ser listo is to be clever.

Cerberus

This distinction and the parallel one in Italian only become an issue when you have to write or speak.

tchrist

As opposed to when, reading?

cornbread ninja

21:25

@KitFox lie.

Cerberus

Yes.

tchrist

It's also in Portuguese, which is not quite perfectly identical to Spanish in this regard, but quite close.

KitFox

@cornbreadninja But it wasn't, now, was it?

Cerberus

As usual.

tchrist

:)

cornbread ninja

21:26

@KitFox two-shay.

Cerberus

Some such distinction is no doubt also present in the French langues d'oc?

And estar comes from stare, not esse, I presume?

As in Eyetalian.

tchrist

@Cerberus Un dels errors que més es fan és a l'utilitzar el verb SER o el verb ESTAR. En català aquests verbs no segueixen la mateixa regla que en castellà. here

Cerberus

In what English dialect/accent do people say Eyetalian, by the way?

tchrist

Lots of America.

Eyeran. Eyeraq.

But Ittaly not Eyetally.

Cerberus

@tchrist Mateixa? Major/main?

tchrist

21:29

"shade"

I think. matiz.

Cerberus

Eyeran and Eyeraq are not as egregious.

@tchrist Shade?

tchrist

Ciutadants de Catalunya, ja sóc aquí: you can’t say that in Castilian.

Shade of meaning / distinction

Andrew Leach

@tchrist, Sorry to interrupt... I wasn't sure if your last comment on commas between subject and verb was for real (it contains a comma I would have removed): I have Aspergers and can't tell irony or sarcasm easily. [Nor can I tell when to interrupt here!]

Cerberus

Mateixa regla = shade of meaning? That sounds odd.

tchrist

Yo estoy aquí VS Yo soy de aquí

I know. Boink through google translate.

Cerberus

21:31

@AndrewLeach Interruption is allowed at all times!

@tchrist I refuse to use such tools!

tchrist

@AndrewLeach I was kinda teasing. But I am curious what the "rule" is.

Cerberus

@AndrewLeach I agree that one must have a VERY good reason to put a comma in between a subject and its verb in a normal sentence.

tchrist

So that page describes how Catalan has a ser/estar rule, but how it is different from the one in Castilian.

Cerberus

Latin's children are nice.

tchrist

Ok, mateixa is même/mismo/stesso. I wonder how that happened?

Cerberus

21:33

Ahh.

Andrew Leach

Right, okay: thanks. I think it's the product of a poor education. When I left school having had fourteen years of grammar drummed in, everything changed and it went out the window. There followed twenty years of not worrying about commas and apostrophes and the like. I'll add a comment.

Cerberus

I actually don't know where même comes from. Let's see if we can guess.

tchrist

I was doing an ear-cognate with the Portuguese version of matiz, which sounds more like mateix.

There are languages with mesmo. I forget which.

But that definitely looks like an s-substitution that leads to même.

cornbread ninja

wouldn't Akzidenz Grotesk as drawn by Miedinger & Hoffman pretty much just result in Helvetica?

Cerberus

@tchrist Yes, most probably.

I am trying to think of something, but nothing comes to mind.

No Latin word that could possibly have led to même.

tchrist

21:36

Apparently VL had *metipsĭmus.

Cerberus

Ahhh.

Then that's it.

tchrist

met- is an emphatic.

Leaving ipse.

Cerberus

Yes.

cornbread ninja

cornbread out.

Cerberus

For one moment I thought there might be an ipse in it.

But it seemed unlikely.

tchrist

21:36

It's hard to see.

Cerberus

An ugly formation.

tchrist

A lot got worn down over the years.

Cerberus

I think semet ipse could occur in literary texts, letters or such.

MetaEd

@tchrist Is there a conventional translation from ser/estar to English which makes the distinction clear? Maybe ser = is, estar = is currently?

tchrist

Not really.

You can’t use estar with noun complements, though.

Cerberus

21:38

And some confusion between "this man himself" and "the same man" already existed in literary ipse.

tchrist

"I am a man today, but tomorrow I shall be a woman" demand ser, because they take nouns.

The same thing happens with prefix-vs-postfix même/mismo.

La misma idea is the same idea, but la idea misma is the idea itself.

Spare Oom

@Cerberus Tell me about it! I remember having a flight delayed, because the temperature was 123 F and they had to wait until the air cooled later that evening before they'd leave the tarmac.

tchrist

Before they could become unglued from the tacmac.

MetaEd

@tchrist Well, that does still sort of make sense. Gender bending is a change of identity, not transient.

tchrist

It's not because it's gender.

It's because the complement is a noun.

You cannot estar a thing.

Where thing is a noun.

Because a noun is not a state.

Cerberus

21:42

@tchrist Happens? It must be the same phenomenon as in Antiquity.

@SpareOom Wahhh! plugs ears

tchrist

It is.

Spare Oom

@tchrist In the desert, you don't use air conditioners, because there's no moisture to take out of the air. Instead they use *swamp coolers*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaporative_cooler , which at some point make it humid as well as furnace like and you just have to lie down on the tile floor like the dog. (no offence @Cerberus)

Cerberus

The same phenomenon that also exists in Germanic, of course.

tchrist

♬ In the desert, you don’t remember your name...

Cerberus

@SpareOom I know, I don't like lying on the floor either.

tchrist

21:45

Better than lying on the stand.

Show me the Germanic.

Cerberus

Dezelfde man = the same man. De man zelf = the man himself.

German is similar.

tchrist

mmms

Cerberus

And it happens in Greek too.

So I have always thought of it as a pan-Indo-European phenomenon.

Spare Oom

@tchrist Names are unimportant, but you should remember your water bottle on the hike so you don't perish from dehydration. You may not even know you're getting dehydrated, because the sweat can't build up, since it evaporates instantaneously.

@tchrist The dog dug down a few inches where it was cooler sand, then moved to a new spot when it warmed up to much.

tchrist

I've drunk 14 liters of water on a 30-mile dayhike down to the bottom of the Grand Canyon and back before; I know when to drink.

Spare Oom

21:51

Speaking of heat, just 30 min ago the A/C finally got repaired after about 2 weeks of waiting for a part to come in.

@tchrist Good. I have a hard time. It makes me feel sloshy.

tchrist

40F at 9000 feet at 5:30am when I started down, 40C at 2500 feet at 10:30am when I started back up.

Spare Oom

30 miles!

tchrist

You'll have to convert the times to metric on your own.

You feel sloshy because your body can only assimilate about one liter of water per hour, but you can easily lose, and drink, more than twice that.

This is a problem.

Spare Oom

USA doesn't use metric yet, sadly.

tchrist

Yes we do.

We use it for metric things.

Medicine is in metric.

Milk is in English.

Not for English things.

Spare Oom

21:54

@tchrist Yes, I meant for normal everyday stuff, like they promised decades ago.

tchrist

That is out of order.

More than decades.

Doesn't matter.

No reason not to use whatever works for the thing you're doing.

Water boils at 100C minus 1C per 1,000 feet of altitude. Have a nice day.

Spare Oom

We didn't have any trouble going to 2L bottles of soda.

tchrist

Oh? Checked waistlines lately?

MetaEd

Romance copula

The copula or copulae (the verb or verbs meaning "to be") in all Romance languages largely derive from the Latin verbs "to be" (ultimately from Proto-Indo-European *h1es-, as in English is); "to stand" (ultimately from Proto-Indo-European *steh2-, as in English stand and German stehen); and "to sit" (ultimately from Proto-Indo-European *sed-, as in English sit). The verb was an irregular, suppletive verb, with some of its forms (e.g. fuī "I was") taken from the Proto-Indo-European verb *bhuH- (as in English be). A number of developments occurred in the Romance languages: *The irregul...

Spare Oom

@tchrist Yeah. I check mine often so I won't match with the people who have trouble sitting in airline seats.

MetaEd

21:56

So I've been looking at this.

Of course every damned Romance language has to do it differently.

But I do like "ser = essence" / "estar = state" since those are actually cognate.

tchrist

French mostly just uses one, although it is indeed an irregular suppletive one.

MetaEd

So I'll try to follow the "t".

tchrist

je vais / nous allons is as annoying as I go and you went.

And then there are the fut-ile pasts.

MetaEd

Yeah, go / went / gonad, or however it goes.

Well, hic / haec / hoc.

Have some more of this drink, whatever it calls itself.

"Romance copula" is pretty good on its own.

tchrist

Your article forgets that Spanish also uses quedar for some of that.

MetaEd

22:00

Nothing like a little romantic copulative.

@tchrist Well, edit the damned thing, already. You done yet?

tchrist

Where it is closer to the STABAT MATER thing.

MetaEd

I remember singing that.

tchrist

No me mosquees tanto, tonto.

MetaEd

The Pergolesi.

tchrist

It does have quedar, just further on down.

RegDwight АΑA

22:07

I'm afraid Yoichi-san has posted a gen-ref question.

tchrist

22:33

Wifman is a funny word. It summons up images of manwives and wifemen as sometimes-heard inventions for straight house-husbands and gay male spouses alike. Not very nice, though.

RegDwight АΑA

Werewif.

Where's everybody gone, anyway? Watching US vs. Nigeria?

tchrist

George Martin had weirwoods for like decades before anybody realized he was just respelling were-, and what all that implied.

RegDwight АΑA

Eww.

tchrist

Scott Card's Speaker for the Dead is a heck of a lot more EWWW in its treatment of the piggies getting turned into trees when they die.

That was not intentional.

RegDwight АΑA

►

tchrist

22:38

NOT a treat, that one.

RegDwight АΑA

I think that's the point of her complaints.

tchrist

We have an enthusiastic young man from England who thinks nobody in England actually drops their R's. Curious. Perhaps he's from Leeds.

RegDwight АΑA

A pine in the neck. What a lovely pun.

Wouldn't work in Australia, though.

tchrist

Roight, mite.

RegDwight АΑA

Some poor sod has just flagged a closed question as "i need somebody to helpe me with it".

It's kind of cute but there's nothing I can do.

tchrist

22:44

New to SE, new to English.

No, you can't just reopen it. That would be silly.

RegDwight АΑA

To their defense, I am silly.

tchrist

Silly for using "to" instead of "in". JUST KIDDING!

RegDwight АΑA

Oh I do that quite often. Especially on Tuesdays.

tchrist

Double international dateline, eh?

RegDwight АΑA

This is not a room for to care between prepositions.

tchrist

22:47

Nor one for scoring international dates, apparently.

RegDwight АΑA

True. It's more fun to score on an international date.

tchrist

First things first.

RegDwight АΑA

Why don't they just run clockwise? Then the third base would come first.

Well, well. Now it's time for me to check out US vs. Nigeria.

BBL

tchrist

Sounds like the Japanese version.

Spare Oom

23:30

@tchrist (That wasn't my downvote, btw, but I see someone voted your answer back up.)

tchrist

I didn't think it was yours. Carlo has been about of late, suddenly going non-idle as both my recent contributions were dinged.

Mine was the closing vote on one of his questions today. He takes these things very personally.

Spare Oom

@tchrist I wondered about that.

tchrist

I'm in the deadzone of the day, for 30 more minutes. It means upvotes count for nothing, and it takes a whole upvote to erase one downvote, not to erase five. Happens around noon my time every day or so. Check my recent rep graph to see what I mean.

It’s all very opportunistically timed.

BTW, the Dictionary of American Regional English only provides sample online entries for free. They want you to buy it.

N-grams can never reveal anything about speech. That’s why the Dictionary of American Regional English is so valuable: they actually sent out zillions of people asking scads of questions. So it is about actual speech.

Spare Oom

@tchrist But then how do I see the regional differences in DARE? I don't own a copy and it wouldn't make sense for me to buy one just for this question.

tchrist

You'll have to go to a library, the traditional place to do research. This is just like people who want to consult the OED.

Spare Oom

23:40

My town's library is under renovation and has been for 2 years. :(

tchrist

I know: it’s all very antebellum if not antediluvian. But so it goes.

Spare Oom

However, I did find that they OED was available online from my library. Is the DARE very popular? It may also be available in their online references, I guess.

tchrist

I imagine DARE will eventually sell online subscriptions like the OED does. DARE only recently finished and published its final volume. It has been fifty years in the making.

You can read an article about it here.

Yes, I’m a UW alum.

Spare Oom

I lived in Madison for 5 years and worked in the university system.

tchrist

Where did you live?

Spare Oom

23:46

Asking my address?

tchrist

Well, the area of town. Isthmus? Westtown? I was just at a conference at the Alumni Center down by the Red Gym. Amazing what has and has not changed since I graduated 25 years ago.

Spare Oom

Toward Fitchburg. Was that the south side?

West, maybe?

tchrist

Yes, Fitchburg is to the south.

Spare Oom

I avoided the Isthmus.

tchrist

It's on the other side of the highway.

I only ever lived on the Isthmus.

Spare Oom

23:48

@tchrist Yup. Was that called the beltway?

tchrist

Because I had no car, nor driver’s licence.

Yes, that’s right.

It’s 12/18.

Goes over the restored/moved wetlands project.

Spare Oom

Yeah, I used to go to work on the bus. Impressive public transport for that size city.

tchrist

At one point the #1 in the country for its size.

Oh drat. They’re doing a Volume 6 of DARE.

That's the one that will have the synset maps they've been showing off lately.

Expected early 2013.

I thought it was already out, because I’d seen the maps in the alumnorum magazine.

Volume 5 is "Sl" – "Z". Which has been recently published. So I thought it was done.

The Inland North (which Madison is part of) uses teetertotter.

Spare Oom

I'm originally from Kansas. I don't remember if I ever talked to anyone about teeter-totters in WI. Currently in the DC area, next to a playground where they have them. What should I call them here?

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