Is he the same person?

Henri Menke in this site, I meant.

@MoneySetsYouFree No idea, but boy will this make a great meme!

@MoneySetsYouFree But is seems highly unlikely: henrimenke.com :)

@AlanMunn The future of drawing with TeX is at stake!

@PhelypeOleinik oh no

@AlanMunn OK. Thanks.

> This Soap Bottle Is Made of Soap and Also Dispenses Soap

ooh

@PhelypeOleinik 2nd division though.

@DavidCarlisle quack

insert previous comment here

@DavidCarlisle :)

oh

@DavidCarlisle All looking great on LearnLaTeX - can I convince you to write a TUGboat about texlive.net? (@barbarabeeton)

@DavidCarlisle Joseph is mean

@JosephWright got the local \diff working (not online yet) and mhchem,music,chess all more or less working so just really forest and pgfplots defeated me, I suspect I may need some make4ht assistance:-)

@DavidCarlisle Pretty good

@PauloCereda :(

@JosephWright /hugs

@DavidCarlisle ^^ duck hug

> Triangular USB connectors were soon abandoned after some users complained of needing to rotate them up to six times before successful insertion.

@PauloCereda :)

@JosephWright ooh engineers :)

@PauloCereda github.com/josephwright/siunitx/commit/… ;)

@JosephWright ooh more engineers

@AlanMunn HERRRENBERG???

@PauloCereda Seen Carla's question?

@UlrikeFischer no...

@UlrikeFischer found it, working on it.

@PauloCereda Thank you!

@CarLaTeX my pleasure, sorry for not spotting it earlier! The fix is very, very easy, I am just writing a more detailed answer to explain what happens. :)

@UlrikeFischer A very, very strong R sound, like in Spanish perr(rr)o ;-P

@PauloCereda @CarLaTeX answer: Paulo's programs are full of features?

@DavidCarlisle It's a good race (I don't know if in English this expression has the same meaning as in Italian)

@CarLaTeX posted. :)

@DavidCarlisle rule that always applies

@PauloCereda Works, thanks!

@CarLaTeX Yay <3

@PauloCereda Nice use of the new tables :)

@samcarter_looks_forward_TUG'21 <3

@TeXnician Thank you! You're right, Paulo's already answered.

@CarLaTeX Yeah, deleted my comment in favor of that. I think the blog post detailing the breaking changes is not well known, so users won't be aware of easy fixes .

@JosephWright @UlrikeFischer local definitions of \diff get passed to mathjax...

@DavidCarlisle Wow

@TeXnician So it's @PauloCereda's fault :)

@DavidCarlisle you will have to write a second paper about how to configure make4ht ...

grrrr.... don't you hate when hitting "post answer" and discover that the user deleted the question?

@CarLaTeX oh no

@UlrikeFischer I had a quick look at Michal's make4ht manual and I understood nothing except "I think I have done this all wrong" the bit about configuring image generation just starts off by saying it is't very intuitive...

@CarLaTeX Well, probably. He's also still working on getting arara's documentation onto that web page :D

@DavidCarlisle YOU READ THE DOCUMENTATION?!

@PauloCereda it confirmed my suspicions.

@DavidCarlisle <3

@PauloCereda this worked better: $ export KPATHSEA_DEBUG=127

@PauloCereda Ducks are very good at documentation

@DavidCarlisle LOL

@TeXnician wait what

oh no

OH NO

/ducks

/finds a cookie

ooh a cookie

@PauloCereda You are assigned to this issue, aren't you? ;)

@CarLaTeX also duckmentation :)

@TeXnician nah version 7, there's a lot of time :)

@PauloCereda Like … 1 year?

@PauloCereda They are very good at duckmentation!

@TeXnician hm technically less than an year

Oh no

@TeXnician there was a time when he just had to finish the arara documentation before returning to finishing his thesis (or was it the other way round?)

@DavidCarlisle Speaking of that, this time I really am going to finish siunitx v3 - I think other than complex numbers I can be done by the end of next month, so perhaps beta-1 is coming

@JosephWright good then you can do longtable 5:-)

@DavidCarlisle :)

@DavidCarlisle and a new url handling

(hopefully the video can be played outside Brazil) Two birds were caught in the highway traffic monitoring system, globoplay.globo.com/v/9410009 a woodpecker and a toucan!

There are a lot of choices offered here, which is confusing.

So, is there a preferred option? I don't really know which one to choose.

@FaheemMitha they are not really alternatives, some are suggesting defining the command so it isnt an issue, and some are saying what to do if you have such a command. Given \LaTeX I'd probably most often use \LaTeX{} but it doesn't come up often in practice.

@DavidCarlisle It doesn't?

@FaheemMitha By default latex has very few commands used in inline text that do not take an argument. The logo commands like \LaTeX are just about the only example

@DavidCarlisle Sure, but I had user defined commands in mind.

@DavidCarlisle My preference too

@FaheemMitha I'd stick with \foo{}

@JosephWright OK. Will do. Thank you @DavidCarlisle and @JosephWright.

@FaheemMitha how many text mode user commands without argument does a typical document define? My documents would average less than 1.

@JosephWright boo

@DavidCarlisle Well, I just defined one.

@PauloCereda boo?

@FaheemMitha I just prefer `\foo\`, that's all :)

So, this isn't an issue for macros with arguments?

ah escaping woes, but you got the idea. :)

@FaheemMitha no

@PauloCereda Hmm. That's not mentioned in that list. And can't one use ~ as well? That's not mentioned either.

@PauloCereda \ is tricky though, and if you originally forgot you can globally replace \foo by \foo{} but you can't globally replace \foo by \foo\ in case it comes at end of sentence.

@DavidCarlisle Exactly, one needs to know where to use it, agreed.

@FaheemMitha but that is different because ~ isn't the same as a space.

@PauloCereda but if you knew where to use it you wouldn't be asking the question, so it's not so good as an answer.

By the way, today is Carbonara Day: twitter.com/Markus70/status/1379340381813374977

@DavidCarlisle Oh. But it does separate text, though. Presumably it behaves differently from a space.

@DavidCarlisle I am not questioning if should be added as an answer, I just told what I prefer to use.

@FaheemMitha you have been using latex for years:-) ~ is a non breakable space.

@FaheemMitha It prevents line breaking (non-breaking space).

@PauloCereda I know but that's no reason not to argue. (whould you prefer the full 10 minutes)

@DavidCarlisle I have indeed.

@TeXnician Thank you.

@DavidCarlisle pardon?

@PauloCereda Assuming you've come here for an argument (and not, say, being hit on the head lesson :p)

@Plergux ooh

@DavidCarlisle ooh

@DavidCarlisle I never wanted to be a researcher

@PauloCereda lol

@Plergux <3

@Plergux great, the lumberjack song is now stuck inside my head

@PauloCereda Could be worse. Could be the Macarena :p

@Plergux oh no

@Plergux or this one

@CarLaTeX ooh

@PauloCereda Oh, that is so much better than the Macarena. I'd listen to ten hours of Nyan Cat or Leek Spin just to avoid the Macarena XD

@PauloCereda An extremely good explanation, like only a genius can do!

@Plergux same :)

@CarLaTeX True!

@DavidCarlisle quack

@PauloCereda Did you have this one everywhere back in the day? :p youtube.com/watch?v=V0PisGe66mY

@Plergux What's wrong with the Macarena?

@Plergux Oh my, I know this song. And there was a Portuguese version indeed, modulo the chorus gibberish. :)

@FaheemMitha It was played everywhere and I just got sick of it. Same as Stairway to Heaven, Livin on a Prayer, Achy Breaky Heart and several others that make me sick. :p

@JosephWright Akira found the source of the problem with the nul ...

@UlrikeFischer I'd seen - so Not Our Fault

@UlrikeFischer interesting thread overnight:-)

@PauloCereda Yeah, that one makes it to my nostalgia list (and stays out of the "never play ever again ever" list :p) because it's slightly less annoying and slightly more "attractive" :p

@PauloCereda \vomit

@Plergux hear it please :)

@PauloCereda hmmm.... are you RickRolling me? :p

@JosephWright I never assumed that it is our fault ;-)

@Plergux Never <3 I just find it very funny to hear it. :D

@DavidCarlisle That's not an argument. It's just contradiction.

@PauloCereda AAH! I missed the "polka" bit :D So much better XD

@Plergux LOL

@DavidCarlisle yes ;-)

@Plergux I like the BOING sound before the chorus!

@PauloCereda Very Weird Al :p

@Plergux I am hearing to him right now! :D

Pizza, party at your house

@PauloCereda Well, you can't have a polka party and not invite Weird Al!

@Plergux Definitely!

It's snowing!

@UlrikeFischer Yay

@UlrikeFischer we had some yesterday

@UlrikeFischer oh

@DavidCarlisle we have quite a lot currently with large flakes. But they probably won't stay, the ground is too warm.

@UlrikeFischer @JosephWright github.com/davidcarlisle/latexcgi/commit/…

@Plergux ooh twitter.com/SatisfyingDaily/status/1379396470143651840

I tried to have a look at stackoverflow.com/questions/66899174/… and now I'm curious why in the following example the font of "2" gets changed, but not the font of "x":

\documentclass{article}

\renewcommand{\familydefault}{\sfdefault}
\usepackage[italic]{mathastext}

\DeclareSymbolFont{myletters}{T1}{cmr}{m}{n}
\DeclareMathSymbol{x}\mathalpha{myletters}{"78}%
\DeclareMathSymbol{2}\mathalpha{myletters}{"32}

\begin{document}
$x y z 2$

xyz2
\end{document}

@PauloCereda that does not look like social distancing :)

@samcarter_looks_forward_TUG'21 nope :)

@samcarter_looks_forward_TUG'21 because mathastext resets the letter in \everymath.

\documentclass{article}

\renewcommand{\familydefault}{\sfdefault}
\usepackage[italic]{mathastext}

\DeclareSymbolFont{myletters}{T1}{cmr}{m}{n}
\AtBeginDocument{\DeclareMathSymbol{x}\mathalpha{myletters}{"78}}%
\DeclareMathSymbol{2}\mathalpha{myletters}{"32}
\begin{document}

$x2$

\MTmathstandardletters
$x2$


\end{document}

@UlrikeFischer Ahh, thanks a lot for the explanation!

@DavidCarlisle If you do locally \def\textsymfigsymbol#1{#1}\def\xskakmovehyphen{-} then the \xskakget{lan} will be expandable too.

gutenberg.eu.org/Journee-GUTenberg-2021

> 11h15-12h15 : Nouvelle gestion du format PDF par LaTeX (Ulrike Fischer, Allemagne)

@UlrikeFischer ^^ ooh

> 14h00-14h45 : Une courte introduction aux packages TikZducks et TikZlings (samcarter, Italie)

@samcarter_looks_forward_TUG'21 ^^ Italy? :)

I want to talk too

About stuff

@PauloCereda Oh, I did not notice that I moved to another country over the weekend :)

@samcarter_looks_forward_TUG'21 ooh pizza affairs :)

@PauloCereda I did eat pasta on Saturday, may it is true :)

@samcarter_looks_forward_TUG'21 aha! :)

@PauloCereda wrote a mail, let's if I can move back to Germany :)

@samcarter_looks_forward_TUG'21 :)

@samcarter_looks_forward_TUG'21 see if you can watch it globoplay.globo.com/v/9410588 Peter decided to visit the region :)

Patching TeX code

@PauloCereda Oh, I love Peter's hair cut :)

@samcarter_looks_forward_TUG'21 :)

@PauloCereda I hope that's a drain water pipe and not one with pressure

@samcarter_looks_forward_TUG'21 I hope as well :)

@PauloCereda Looks very engineery :)

@PhelypeOleinik woo

@PauloCereda I would give up waiting for that damn dog and just do it myself XD

@Plergux LOL

@UlrikeFischer Im confused the chess example was working yesterday but is failing now at davidcarlisle.github.io/latexcgi/test2-make4ht can't look now, will look later

@DavidCarlisle it says \diff is undefined. That's not my fault:

! Undefined control sequence.
\a:@BODY ...ring {\detokenize \expandafter {\diff
                                                  }\string }

@UlrikeFischer yes just saw that, I wonder who could have added that.... I blame @PauloCereda

@DavidCarlisle oh no

@UlrikeFischer fixed

@UlrikeFischer do you mean for the alt text?

@DavidCarlisle yes, it will then expand to a sensible text (Ng1-f3 or whatever is the move). Actually this is a bit part of the "how to expand in which context" question: I could rather easily define the commands so that they are safe in alt texts or pdf strings, but how should one detect the context?

@UlrikeFischer pass it to the l3 text normalize function and blame Joseph if it fails? I will adjust later but meanwhile I added some words to davidcarlisle.github.io/latexcgi/test2-make4ht

@DavidCarlisle that doesn't resolve the problem that one needs to know if and which normalization is needed in which context. I mean hyperref sets a boolean for texorpdfstring, but that isn't really general yet. The comments are nice ;-)

@UlrikeFischer yes but somewhere like here you know you are writing the alt text at the point you are writing the alt text

@DavidCarlisle yes, but I'm thinking from the xskak package view (and also thinking about tagging and pdfstrings). Currently you have to patch/overwrite the commands in the 4ht-files so that they don't break in the alt text. But you don't know much about chess and so can't really create a sensible replacement. I could do it in xskak, but I'm missing an "official" interface I can use to define which code path to use. Something like \contextchoice{text version}{alt version}{write to file version}.

@UlrikeFischer that depends how agressive the l3 text normalisation ends up being (@JosephWright) if you need some kind of switch to use in pakage definitions for "string or typeset" version that is the equivalent of texorpdfstring as you say but the alternative is you just do the typeset version and the string normalisation manages to figure something out.

@DavidCarlisle well string normalisation can handle quite a lot as one can see also from pdfstringdef, but imho there will be quite a number of cases where help à la texorpdfstring is needed. I don't see e.g how string normalisation could ever give some sensible output from a biblatex \cite command without some support from the biblatex side.

@JosephWright Thanks for asnwering the tweet

twitter.com/aalear/status/1378860504035303426

@samcarter_looks_forward_TUG'21 ooh

@samcarter_looks_forward_TUG'21 circuitikz.github.io/circuitikz/circuitikzmanualgit.pdf#d8 ;-P

@Rmano :D

@samcarter_looks_forward_TUG'21 ooh mynintendonews.com/2021/04/06/…

@PauloCereda oh, cute!

@JosephWright and @DavidCarlisle -- Good idea (as long as David writes it). Promptly, please. And it might be a good idea to reference the two items in TUGboat 41:2 -- the intro and review.

@DavidCarlisle I think something is missing in the online section of (latex-project.org/get/#tex-distributions) ^^

@CarLaTeX You think you have problems with pineapple on pizza. Try getting a real carbonara in the US. :)

@PabloGonzálezL oh and it lists sharelatex and overleaf separately still

@DavidCarlisle This is a first: @PauloCereda failed to get a Monty Python reference!

@AlanMunn He was being angry at me :(

@PabloGonzálezL datazar link hangs, does it work for you?

Portable stool twitter.com/scale_banana/status/1379454432337879041 more like portable Dalek

Hi --- is it possible to do a "last time update" of a TL2020 distro I have in a computer that has been off during the last 10 days? If I try now it says that it's frozen, do that means that I already have the last update?

@Rmano you can use the historic repo.

@DavidCarlisle No, but I'm on the work network so I don't know if it's because of the firewall.

@DavidCarlisle Server not found

@JosephWright I suspect it's gone

@DavidCarlisle -- You don't edit TUGboat. (But logos are indeed the most frequent.)

@barbarabeeton :)

@UlrikeFischer thanks, googling it

@DavidCarlisle And maybe you could add something missing to (latex-project.org/help/links) ^^

@PabloGonzálezL Frank has a post from me in draft form

@JosephWright Cool :D

IoT is now building TL2021 Docker images, as we speak!

@PauloCereda Yay

@JosephWright yay!

...ok, I'll install TL2021. ;-)

@Rmano yay

@barbarabeeton and logos are perhaps more reasonable in tugboat, most cases of space disapearing after tex logos in other documents could be fixed by not using the logo...

@DavidCarlisle Yes indeed. Logos in running text are an affectation IMO.

@DavidCarlisle -- Well, it was an agreement with Honeywell that either \TeX or "TeX" would be used consistently that was a part of the agreement to be able to use that name at all. In TUGboat, which would you prefer? No logo?

@barbarabeeton ooh honey

@PauloCereda -- Not edible honey. Actually, electronic controls and related stuff, no longer computers.

@barbarabeeton oh no

@barbarabeeton sure in tugboat, but most documents that say "this document was made with \LaTeX" could simply not say that.

Jonathan P. Spratte submitted an update to the expkv-opt package.

Version:  0.2 2021-04-04
License:  lppl1.3c

@Skillmon <3

@PauloCereda :) Thanks for the carrot!

@PauloCereda <3

@PauloCereda (I forgot to update the copyright notices...)

@Skillmon Hopefully CTAN won't catch it. :)

@AlanMunn A good Carbonara is very difficult to cook, no surprise you can't find it out of Italy

@CarLaTeX Yes, and apart from having a source for guanciale, even my own attempts are not always consistent.

@AlanMunn Ooohhh, do you cook?

@AlanMunn ooh bacon

@CarLaTeX Yes, a lot.

@AlanMunn Wow!

@CarLaTeX -- If you say it's difficult to cook, I guess I've done it wrong. The way I learned is that, the eggs should be cooked by the hot pasta. They just have to be beaten smooth enough so that they don't get lumpy. (But certainly no cream.) Admittedly, what I cook isn't gourmet level, but it tastes awfully good.

@barbarabeeton It's tricky to get the sauce the perfect consistency, mainly.

@AlanMunn adding pineapple helps.

@AlanMunn -- Yes, and once it gets lumps, it can't be repaired.

@PauloCereda of course they did :) But they said I should just adapt it for the next release and this release is fine.

@barbarabeeton What you say is correct, but there are people who add cream (Carbonara with cream is like pineapple on pizza for us)

@Skillmon Phew!

@barbarabeeton correct. It's easier to have a creamy sauce if you use the following trick: when draining the pasta, keep a bit of the cooking water. Mix the pasta in the pan where you rendered the fact (best "guanciale", but I am not taliban on a good beacon), stir furiously adding a bit of water. As soon as it starts becoming creamy, remove from the heat and mix with the egg (that were very well beaten in a lukewarm bowl).

I preached the "correct" carbonara in my neighborhood here in Spain since I moved here --- 20+ years ago

@CarLaTeX well, you can't really do sauce without cream. :p (or soup, come to think of it :p)

@Plergux You're not Italian, are you? :)

@Plergux Prepare for the wrath of Italy raining down on you. :)

@CarLaTeX well, no. but I would have no qualms about making food and calling it italian. like my lasagna that has no pasta or bechamel in it (just a lot of cheese and cream XD)

@Plergux lasagna without pasta is not a lasagna

@AlanMunn meh... I'll just sing Occidentalis Karma at them. :p

@Plergux Update yourself, this year these won the festival: youtube.com/watch?v=_2OAle0yIGw

@CarLaTeX Exactly. :p

@CarLaTeX way! edgy twelve year olds! and no porno stash. I'll pass. :p

@Plergux You may like the most listened to: youtube.com/watch?v=Q7NjUxGMv7Y or youtube.com/watch?v=cFAtUbi7a8w

@michal.h21 on learnlatex, just using 2,mathjax did surprisingly well, just around a dozen examples in the course have issues. I am not sure if you will laugh or cry at my attempt at adding tex4ht settings for them, I have documented the attempts so far at davidcarlisle.github.io/latexcgi/test2-make4ht

Any R wizards around?

@CarLaTeX THe first one is epic. Love it. Allt the beards! Second one too much autotune and too much drama.

@Plergux I agree :)

@AlanMunn I have used it but not recently and don't have it installed. I suspect that makes me sub-wizard status.

@DavidCarlisle :) Yes, probably. But it seems that updating to the latest version fixed things, so no wizard required.

@Plergux -- Minority opinion here. Crab soup (starting with dismantled steamed blue crabs) has tomatoes and fresh vegetables. Different from crab bisque (which does have cream) and is mostly smooth. Fresh vegetable soup, with peas, cut green beans, corn kernels, tomatoes, onion, ... No cream. And Rhode Island clear (actually sort of gray) chowder; Boston has cream; Manhattan has tomatoes; and there's even a pink variety with both tomato and cream. But Rhode Island (if made properly) is best.

A bit of train music: youtube.com/watch?v=aBNHmUT3GPg

@AlanMunn I'll take the credit for fixing your issue.

@barbarabeeton I'm not really a fan of soup that is just "water" (broth?). I'll forgive it if it's the packet stuff, but otherwise I want some substance to it. :p

@DavidCarlisle Your help is deeply appreciated.

@Plergux -- So you consider fish or shellfish or beef or pork or vegetables to be insubstantial? Or chicken; can't forget chicken. I guess you wouldn't like nabeyaki udon or ramen bowls either. Very sad.

@barbarabeeton Well, I like fish and shellfish, beef and pork and vegetables and chicken and everything. I just don't see the point of drowning them in water. And no, I'm not a big fan of udon or ramen (occasionally package stuff in desperation).

@Plergux -- Ah, too bad. One of the best parts of a roast chicken dinner is the opportunity to make bone soup from the carcass. Never start by putting raw chicken, or even cooked chicken pieces without the bones, in water! Perish the thought! I guess noodles are subjective, so okay. What about matzo balls?

@DavidCarlisle ah, I see. I think for TikZ examples you definitely want the alternative driver: github.com/michal-h21/dvisvgm4ht. It needs explicit definition in the TeX file unfortunately :/

@barbarabeeton We very seldom eat roast chicken. Usually we buy breasts and I make indian style gloop or just some nuggets. :p (we are not very sophisticated eaters :p) I've never had matzo balls but reading the recipe it doesn't sound very appetising :|

commands not supported by MathJax can be declared in the configuration file: kodymirus.cz/tex4ht-doc/Configurations.html#x8-770007.19.3

@michal.h21 thanks for the link, I'll look....

I made some configuration for xskak long time ago, but never put it to TeX4ht sources, which I should do: tex.stackexchange.com/a/307277/2891

@samcarter_looks_forward_TUG'21 That's epic! :D

@DavidCarlisle in a cfg file

@michal.h21 oh in anything.cfg which I specify on the commandline, Ok I see I already have learnlatex4ht.cfg so I should be able to use that....

Yes. if you have existing .cfg file, then use just \Configure{MathJaxConfig}. Is that cfg file accessible somewhere? I can take a look later

@michal.h21 yes its linked from the top of that test page github.com/davidcarlisle/latexcgi/tree/main/make4ht it is learnlatex4ht.cfg and used to add local definition of \diff but I was aware it failed to use any proper tex4ht configuration commands:-)

@michal.h21 can I put that in a central place, currently I am copying it in to the working directory each time, which seems wrong.

@DavidCarlisle ah, OK. it is already midnight, so I am bit tired :)

@michal.h21 sorry, sleep well, ignore me. There is no rush here at all, thanks for the help

@DavidCarlisle mak4ht -c ../learnlatex4ht.cfg filename.tex "..." should work. relative paths don't work in the options string :(

@michal.h21 ah OK

@DavidCarlisle Is there a reason why a zero byte file fails when inserted by \includegraphics? The file was created by touch foo.png

@DavidCarlisle I mean the error says "reading image file failed", but I'm curious if it would have to be that way. (I'm trying to trick it deliberately, but clearly I can't.)

@AlanMunn in the beginning tex itself wouldn't touch the image file just check if it exits (which a zero byte file does) then what happens after that depended on the dvi driver in use. Now how pdftex/luatex/xetex treat that (and whether it's the same for all file types) I honestly couldn't say

@AlanMunn I could check file size and treat it as not existing, but really is an existing zero byte fiel conceptually any different from any other random invalid byte stream claiming to be an image, that I can't test for?

@DavidCarlisle Yeah, maybe not. There's no good way to distinguish them, and you do want it to fail in the second case rather than just fail to insert silently.

@DavidCarlisle I had a bunch of numbered images being inserted with a loop and I discovered I had a duplicate, so I thought I could trick the system into ignoring the duplicate if I made it zero bytes.

@AlanMunn there is the \(pdf)filesize primitive these days so I could detect a zero byte file and do something but a 1-byte file is also most likely not an image either so at some point you just have to assume it's an image and if it fails, it fails

@DavidCarlisle Yes, it's certainly not worth doing anything. I was just curious to see if I could do it.

@AlanMunn \ifnum\pdffilesize{foo.png}>0 \includegraphics{foo.png}\fi

@DavidCarlisle Thanks. I'll remember that for next time.

@AlanMunn terribly modern using such things, @JosephWright will be proud of me

@DavidCarlisle :)

@AlanMunn What about making the duplicate a symlink?

@FaheemMitha the answer is easy. DEK tells us in chapter 3 to use a control space (\ ), and if we can't live with that suggests the slash in chapter 20 (as in \def\TeX/{<stuff>}, such that one needs to use \TeX/). DEK has spoken (or written?).