« first day (3166 days earlier)      last day (1661 days later) » 

1:36 AM
@UnrelatedString Yeah the code for Axtell is still floating around on GitHub. There's no setup instructions for a server because a) we were kinda flying by the seat of our pants there, and b) there's not many strict requirements for how the server has to be set up, other than using Redis and Celery (but those could also be removed/replaced). If someone else wants to take over the development and hosting, I'd be happy to help them get set up, but I simply don't have the time now to develop it anymore.
As much as I would love to be able to answer all of the questions that you folks have about the situation with Monica being demodded and other mods stepping down, I can't, because a) I signed the moderator agreement, which means that I can't talk about the confidential conversations that led to all of this, and b) I didn't actively take part in the conversations; what I know about the situation mainly comes from reading transcripts, which means I don't have all of the information or context.
Spreading incomplete or inaccurate information is often harmful, so I'd rather not do that. Instead, what I want to do is share my thoughts on public things SE has done (and hasn't done), which will neither violate the moderator agreement nor involve stating incomplete information as fact. For starters - I'm not going to step down and hand in my diamond right now. I respect Dennis's decision to step down, and I do not disagree with the sentiments he expressed.
However, I do not think that stepping down is the right choice for me. To me, stepping down would feel more like abandoning this community than taking a stand against SE, and I'm not willing to do that to this site and community that I love. Instead, I'm going to air my grievances here. This may sound like navel-gazing, but the reality is that SE (and specifically CG&CC) are important to me, and I don't want it to seem like I don't care about what's happening in these tumultuous times.
1:51 AM
First off, since this site was first created, we've always felt like a second-class citizen to the rest of the network. SE is a network of (mostly) Q&A sites, but we (mostly) don't do Q&A here. We have different needs from the rest of the network. When the Area 51 proposal for PPCG was accepted, it sent an implicit message that we would be supported on the network, despite being a different kind of site. In my eyes, that is a promise that SE has failed to fulfill.
Not only have we been unable to get any customizations other than minor text changes and a flag set to allow meta posting at 1 rep, but we've been ignored a lot, too. It took us repeatedly poking staff to be moved out of beta, long after we had reached the milestones set by SE for a successful beta. It took another year to become fully graduated and get our own design.
We've been more or less left to our own devices to figure out how to make our weird little site work within the SE framework. And to our credit, we've got it mostly figured out. But the issues we have remaining are complicated issues - the voting system, the reputation system, the sandbox, etc. I don't think those issues are going to get resolved while we are still hosted on the SE software.
And then there are the network-wide actions of SE that are a whole different problem. First there was the half-baked idea of applying the MIT license to code contributions, while keeping non-code contributions licensed under CC-BY-SA 3.0. That fizzled out, because the community pointed out just how stupid of an idea it was, because it's very hard to distinguish code contributions from non-code contributions.
Then SE changed the Terms of Service to include a non-arbitration clause, and had to backpedal and offer a way to opt out when it was pointed out that the change was illegal in the EU. The fact that it was another decision made without consideration of the legality of the change was worrying. A few weeks ago, SE announced that they were changing the Terms of Service yet again, to license content under CC-BY-SA 4.0 now.
2:07 AM
Many users pointed out that this too was illegal, because content licensed under CC-BY-SA 3.0 could not be retroactively changed to be licensed under CC-BY-SA 4.0 without express permission from the contributors. SE has yet to respond and offer an explanation from legal counsel about how this change is not a gross violation of copyright law. This all left me with very little trust in SE's ability to do what is best for the network.
And now, this whole demodding situation has exploded (to put it lightly). Like I said before; I'm not at liberty to share details, but my opinion is that SE vastly overreacted, and it feels a lot like tyranny to me. I feel as though SE has broken the contract between users (especially moderators) and staff. I feel that SE no longer represents the best interests of the userbase.
I hope that these issues can be resolved, and that all of this doesn't continue to worsen and cause a deeper divide between users and SE staff. A lot of people are unhappy right now. I'm unhappy right now. But I'm choosing to be optimistic, and believe that things will get better. And in the interest of optimism, I'm choosing not to make a stand right now by turning in my diamond. However, if things do not get better, I don't think I'll be left with a choice.
@Mego what's your opinion on moving CGCC off of SE?
I'm curious, would that change your opinion on turning in your badge? (I have no real opinion one way or another, but I am curious)
I hope that the wall of text I just typed comes together into cohesive thoughts like I want, and not just the ramblings of an unhappy penguin. In my eyes, remaining silent when terrible things are happening is not productive. I wanted to get my thoughts out so that hopefully that huge block of words can help inspire a positive change.
@Riker If CG&CC moved off of SE, then I would turn in my diamond. I'm only a mod here, and that's by choice - CG&CC is the only community I care enough about to volunteer to improve by being a moderator. That's not to say that I don't care about the rest of the network - this place is just super special to me. Without CG&CC here, I'd have no reason to remain a moderator.
2:18 AM
@Mego okay, that's what I was assuming, but thanks for clarifying :)
I'm a big fan of baseball, specifically MLB. In baseball, when a team believes that the officials are not applying the rules of the game correctly, they can choose to file a formal protest, and continue playing the game under protest. The MLB head office will then review the protest, determine if any wrongdoing occurred by the officials, and take action to right the wrongs, if any.
As an analogy, you could say that I'm moderating under protest (as opposed to resigning under protest, like many other moderators are choosing). I'm still going to act as a moderator for the foreseeable future, because that's how I feel I can best serve the needs and interests of this community, but I'm not happy about the way the network is being run right now, and I hope that SE will take note of these protests and right the wrongs that they have done.
@Mego This idea of "moderating under protest" actually applies pretty well to my own stance too. I want to continue serving my community on Christianity.SE, so I'll stay for now, but I'm doing this in spite of SE.
And now that I've poured my heart out onto my keyboard, I'm going to fill the empty space with ice cream. See you all tomorrow. If anyone here wants to talk about this stuff (in a civil and productive manner, and without me violating the moderator agreement, naturally), I'm here for you.
@El'endiaStarman I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one feeling the way that I am, and that what I've said resonates with someone else in a similar position as myself.
2:30 AM
<3 you all from the bottom of my penguin heart
@Mego what flavor?
that's the really important question here
3:06 AM
@Riker Mint chocolate chip and alcohol
:/ not cookie dough?
3:48 AM
Do people think PPCG could actually survive outside of the SE network?
Might not grow as much but it ought to do fine
of course we don't know whether or not that might be necessary since the situation hasn't had much time to evolve
@Mego What are you mixing in?
1 hour later…
5:17 AM
@DJMcMayhem Kahlua and chocolate cream liqueur
6:55 AM
SE has stopped sending merch to top contributors of graduating sites for quite some time now. Another example of how they mostly don’t give a shit about their community
I'm like a toddler in this community as I've been here only for about 1 year. But I was always wondering if a combination of PPCG (which is now CGCC) and code-golf.io could work better. Something which is specifically structured for code golf/challenge (like code-golf.io) and still has a community around it where people can comment, chat, joke and have fun too (like PPCG).
7:16 AM
@Night2 code-golf.io requires login with github (that alone means i ain't gonna use it) and reads your private email address from there
7:29 AM
anarchy golf is better in that regard
it also looks like it's severely language restricted, so i think the point of bringing it up is just as an example ofa dedicated platform for golf
1 hour later…
8:37 AM
@ngn It is just about the general idea/example as @UnrelatedString better said it. I have only seen that website, so it is my only example apart from PPCG. How you are going to login is just a minor detail here.
In a structured platform there can be better categorizations for challenges (we have only tags in PPCG) and answers (for example each answer can have language and score fields so shortest answers for each language can be shown automatically or user statistics based on languages can be extracted).
There can also be other scoring systems apart from votes and so different score boards too. It doesn't need to be a platform where you have to run the code and get results inside it, but can have that feature too (like having a TIO alongside or withing).
Generally this is just something I have been wondering about, I'm not even sure if it would work or not. My experience with PPCG is very limited, so I'm not the right person to give out opinions as I cannot see everything!
But I have enjoyed both code-golf.io and PPCG, of course the joy in code-golf.io has been limited due to lack of a connected community, while PPCG can be enjoyable every new day.
8:59 AM
@Night2 i see ppcg (or cgcc) first and foremost as a community that just happens to use SE as a platform - both in the tenchical (a db+ui for challenges and answers) and in the social sense (moderation etc). SE has been doing a tolerable job so far, despite not being designed for the specific needs of codegolf; that's why most people never bothered with pushing for alternatives and a project like axtell didn't get a critical mass. is there room for improvement? - definitely.
will it work? - well, it depends. now that the social side of SE experiences troubles, it might be a good time to consider alternatives. there's enough brainpower around to help with the making of a dedicated golf site. it's a question of motivation and coordination, and of course a question of what you mean by "will it work".
for any alternative golfing site, there should be enough motivation to maintain it and keep it running in the long term. maybe that could be done with enthusiasm alone. or maybe it should make some money too.
@ngn I would say here, by "will it work" I mean if it can keep the positive sides and combine the benefits and have a successful community around it. This is kind of too general and probably has aspects that I cannot think about it. I'm not considering or wondering about who will own it, who will run it, what will be the policies and other things like that. But these are also some important points.
9:17 AM
@Night2 if you can formulate it as a specific question, a chat mini-poll might be a good way to reveal what the majority thinks
2 hours later…
11:20 AM
For reference for the money aspect - we were running Axtell on a $10/mo droplet from DigitalOcean with no issues during the height of development, and that was with some choices that probably weren't as efficient as they could have been. Granted, that won't be enough as a site grows, but it requires very little monetary investment to get hosting started.
1:10 PM
Q: Should we consider planning a move off StackExchange?

xnorShould we consider planning to move Code Golf to our own site off outside the Stack Exchange network? Reasons to consider leaving This post was spurred by recent events, but it's been in my mind for a while. Stack Exchange has been losing community trust for years. If you haven't followed main ...

1:48 PM
@NewMetaPosts Man, I apparently missed a lot of shit going down over the weekend
@Veskah TMR is still raging on
2 hours later…
3:34 PM
man, why do people have to be not good!
2 hours later…
5:46 PM
i have the impression it is rare that someone is consciously trying to be not good. Sometimes it is a matter of perspective and many times it is a matter of ignorance.
(This does obviously not apply to me, but to everyone else.)
6:13 PM
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

GammaFunctionSurjection from one string to two strings This is the inverse of negative seven's question. Write a program or function which, given a single string of printable ASCII (codes \$[32,127]\$) outputs or returns two strings of printable ASCII. For any two ordered, possibly empty strings \$s_1\$ an...

@JohnDvorak Ha ha, when you meme so hard, you get TMR frozen
SE's darkest hour
6:56 PM
@Veskah unfrozen now
must be global warming
@Dennis haven't been here for awhile but thanks for all you've done for PPCG. hoping stackexchange gets their feet out from their backsides and you'll come back when they do
SE has been surviving for years, i'd be surprised if it died now, even if they do a bunch of stupid shit
it won't die, it will just become something in which I will have no desire to participate
I don't even understand what is happening.
But it does seem entertaining.
7:10 PM
TLDR is that SE is (1) trying to assert that they have the right to change licenses on content, and (2) remove their mods willy nilly
at least as far as i understand
@musicman523 there's more than that
I saw the mods post about getting removed but it was very very vague so I didn't know what to make of it.
(3) when called out on 1 and 2, maintained basically radio silence or posted vague responses that answered little
If we go by Caleb's resignation ... SOinc has decided to require moderators to respect gender pronouns requested by the users; Monica asked for a clarification about the new rule; SOinc descended harshly on her; that made quite a few mods rather upset, which helped made the whole MSx community rather upset.
7:15 PM
So the issue with the CoC, is pronouns?
@SriotchilismO'Zaic it seems to be the more general concept of.. opinions, from what we seem to know now
What is "The general concept of opinions"?
@SriotchilismO'Zaic the c.se post linked above, while mentioning pronouns, also mentioned other cases of "people want X => you must do X"
personally i'd like to not make assumptions currently until clearer information in a non-side-note-y way is available though, my message above can very well be very overstated from all i know
I guess I don't get their reasoning at all then.
@SriotchilismO'Zaic if i understood correctly, the new CoC will require mods to refer to people with their pronouns of choice, and not try to be evasive by using just their username
this is just my interpretation of the information i've been able to collect. i could be wrong. we'll know for sure if/when the new CoC becomes public.
7:23 PM
Does it say that somewhere in Caleb's post and I just missed it? Or is there something else I have not read too?
To me, it looks like, and I could be wrong, that this is just an explicit extension of the be nice policy to cover trans people.
It's in Caleb's post
"If person A comes along and demands that I refer to them by their "preferred pronoun" (even if it is a mismatch for their genetic sex or the grammar of the language being spoken) and I refuse, that's considered an insult. Now if I avoid pronouns altogether by sticking to proper names or disengaging from the individual, that's being considered an insult too."
Ah ok. I see. How would you even notice someone avoiding 3rd person pronouns though? It seems like you would only notice it if that person were trying to be mean.
hm, I guess I might have extrapolated "The new unforgivable offense is not playing along with people that disagree." a bit more than it was meant to, but who knows
I suspect that consistently avoiding third person pronouns would lead to quite a bit of unnatural speech and quickly be noticed
7:28 PM
Well then it is kind of mean isn't it?
which I suspect was the point of the new CoC
Ok, so are people more mad about the demodding thing than the CoC changes?
I know I am
I'd like to make clear that I have resigned exclusively because of how Monica was treated by SE. The proposed changes to the CoC have nothing to do with my resignation.
it's a thing to soft request from people to accomodate other folks pronouns, it's another to dismiss Monica on the basis of inclusion
7:30 PM
Yes, especially since people got mad at demodding before the topic of the CoC changes became known to non-mods
I suppose. But how the demodding happened is unclear to me.
Are you at liberty to share?
@SriotchilismO'Zaic people are mad about both, but most people agree the demodding was handled poorly whereas people are very divided on whether it should have happened at all / the CoC changes
@JohnDvorak Not beyond what she wrote on the topic.
OK, thanks.
@SriotchilismO'Zaic what annoys me most is the attempt to hide information (by both sides) and stifle discussions (by staff)
7:33 PM
@ngn Yeah I do feel like I don't really have enough info rn. Maybe in a little while we will.
@ngn did that really happen though, or did they just want to reduce the number of speculation and flaming until they can assemble a consistent message to the public in the middle of the night?
@JohnDvorak that's a terrible way to handle a crisis like this
@ngn i'd like to assume that's without malice, though now somewhere it was said that at some point some (hopefully) proper info will be given
I do suppose, and most notably I believe Sara's message was ... causing more harm than it solved
mods claim they can't talk because they're under an NDA, yet so many of them are leaving and still keeping quiet...
7:36 PM
Maybe they're keeping quiet because they feel enough has been said already or because they don't want to burn bridges in case their grievance is resolved?
not enough had been said. it took me (and probably many others) a long time to connect the dots.
True, but perhaps more would have been said if the community just waited
@dzaima first there was talk about info that would be released in a week or two, but then Sara Chipps said in her template posts: "We aren’t going to share specifics out of respect for all individuals involved"
Yeah, that's an issue...
@JohnDvorak fwiw I once went a whole day without using third-person pronouns as an experiment; nobody noticed (although it did require extra care in working out how to write sentences so that the lack of pronoun wouldn't be obvious)
7:45 PM
I tend to avoid them as a matter of course anyway, because I normally don't know what the correct pronoun to use is, don't want to use an incorrect pronoun, and think that finding out would be over the top in terms of the actual benefit
It's much harder in Czech because it bars you from using past tense entirely because the suffix relies on the subject gender
(this is third-person pronouns for singular people: "it" for objects, "them" for plurals are uncontroversial)
there are three linguistic genders in Czech, but using the neutral one is asserting the subject isn't a human, and highly offensive (except for kids and younger)
7:48 PM
right, calling people "it" in English is also frowned upon
I have been avoiding he/she pretty consistently for the last couple of months both in person and in writing. I do slip up sometimes but I am getting pretty good at it and it has only been commented on once.
fwiw, I'd lost faith in Stack Exchange well before the current issues started, it was one of the reasons behind causing me to disappear from the site
heh, my only mention of "he" in TNB this year is as the 2-letter prefix of "Hello, World!" :D
It would be nice if this caused us to move away from stack-exchange, but it doesn't seem like the conditions are right.
network effects are huge
Stack Exchange was never really an appropriate site for golf competitions, but being able to advertise on the HNQ bar of Stack Overflow is a better way to get views/users for a golf site than almost anything else you could do
7:55 PM
@SriotchilismO'Zaic i'm not sure. they mishandled the PR crisis today really badly.
I'm not against switching to different platform (except that SE is a great source of new souls), but switching due to ongoing drama would leave a permanent scar.
@ngn I mean more that, we don't have anywhere to go. If we had an up and running alternative that we could all jump over to then we might be able to survive a collapse.
@SriotchilismO'Zaic ah, i see
@SriotchilismO'Zaic This is why I'm trying to get people planning for a place to go in advance.
CGCC is linked from a large proportion of Stack Overflow pages, and Stack Overflow is the Internet's 37th most popular site (probably much higher among programmers, who are the people you want for a golfing site)
7:57 PM
Visibility is a good reason to stay with the network
I'd say something stronger: it's the only reason to stay within the network
This site would likely stick around to some extent anyway, it seems unlikely SE would just shut it down. Providing some visibility to the alternative.
huh, apparently out of the Internet's 50 most popular sites, Stack Overflow has the highest proportion of traffic that arrived on it via a search rather than visiting the site directly, at 72%
fwiw, I've been involved in the migration of a site from a large provider to a community provider before now (NetHack's wiki from Wikia to nethackwiki.com)
the original site still technically exists, but nobody is moderating it, so it gets gradually less and less accurate over time (everyone who knows what they're doing has moved to the new site)
and the original site still often beats the new site in search results, even though we got almost all the incoming links we could find changed
(Wikia also has an HNQ-equivalent, although it's mostly there to provide search engine rank rather than attract readers)
8:01 PM
I feel like wikis have it better than our site in terms of migration.
I frequenly google X-Wiki to find the site (and then scroll down to see if there is a link to a non-wikia site)
well, we're using the same software, and forked from the same data, so the actual migration was trivial except in the sense of needing someone to host it; migrating the community is of course harder
@ais523 interesting, i never noticed that because i've always just used the site search directly
I don't feel like there is nearly the impetus to search for a code-golf site directly.
whereas I don't think SE's software is open source, and we wouldn't want to use the same software anyway
however, i don't know how relevant that would be for a site like code golf, which i suspect gets significantly less traffic directly from search engines
8:03 PM
(it's even hard to figure out what license the existing content on CGCC is, due to the recent licensing issues)
@Doorknob i think it gets most of its traffic indirectly via people searching for something on SO and then seeing CGCC in HQ
when IPS was removed from HNQ, it lost 80% of its traffic, I'd expect a similar ratio to exist with CGCC (although am not sure)
Man I wish they would remove us from the HNQ
HNQ is negative in almost all senses other than recruiting members
fwiw, I didn't find this site via HNQ (I found it via people linking popcons on Reddit)
popcons are good for linking to because the answers are by definition optimised for popularity
As if reddit traffic is any better. Popularity to a site always has its negatives
I feel like the HNQ could be good, I think the influx of new members is good, but it promotes questions in a very questionable way.
I resisted joining here for years because I hated Stack Exchange so much, but eventually the questions became too good to resist
8:13 PM
@dzaima they could have come up with some quick statement, not necessarily revealing spicy details, just something honest to calm down the crowd. they could have waited for the storm to pass, then dealt with the offensive posts. instead, they started deleting posts and freezing rooms willy-nilly.
when more than a few of the most respected members of the community - the mods - resigned, it was already clear that this is an unusual situation and 4 employees can't cope with it through the usual methods.
it was definitely handled poorly, but i don't think it's fair to expect anyone to act perfectly rationally in such a charged situation, nor will focusing on people's numerous mistakes do anything to help
(fwiw, a significant amount of information is also being withheld from the moderators, which i agree agitates things)
@ngn I saw one room freeze, and it was because the offensiveness went off the charts.
i found this stack in addition to others through hnq
personally i'm a fan of it
@Doorknob indeed, it must have been stressful for them. perfect rationality is not required, though. they could have stopped and apologized at any point.
i sometimes use stackexchange like other people use reddit... i just browse fun questions or ones i find interesting
hnq is great for that
8:26 PM
@JohnDvorak after the freeze, a meta entry was created. they answered, got -16 before they could even vote-freeze the question, and the chat continued in the comments. they froze them too.
Clarification: I saw the freezing of TMR and of the meta answer explaining it.
some of the questions/answers on this site really pulled me in but what got me to join was really the community. I came into this chatroom and interacted with people like geobits, dennis, and martin
@ngn i don't doubt they're already regretting things they have done already in hurry of trying to get something out, and learning to not makes sense, but the damage control does seem a bit (much?) overboard
I'm willing to believe Sara's response was well-intended ... even though the reception was quite the opposite and for very good reasons.
@JohnDvorak btw, the "meme" post about sara mysteriously disappeared, i don't even remember what it said, it wasn't particularly funny, but i remember it got deleted in front of my eyes and that attracted my attention
8:35 PM
@ngn tl;dr: Sara's response got used on Spanish.se as a basis of a translation golf challenge; I linked it in not-sure-where stating that Sara's response achieved memetic status; somebody went on and updated the meme database.
i hope they find a way to earn back at least some of the trust they lost today... i'm not sure it's possible, i just hope.
even if it is, the cycle of "we did a bad thing but you should trust us" has repeated one too many times for some people (and in such an egregious way, too)
Think the change of a CEO could help?
8:56 PM
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

AviMirror, Mirror, on the wall. Who's the fairest of them all? Well, you know it's Snow White, and the evil Queen is at it again. Will Snow White be saved? Will she fall asleep once again? Will the Prince find her? Challenge: Given an arbitrary number (>= 2) of possibly duplicated hexadecimal col...

@JohnDvorak idk, but a change of the userbase certainly could :)
@ngn Mods are mods in part because they take their duties seriously – no longer being mods doesn't suddenly mean they'll stop doing their duties.
an (obfuscated) method of writing xor (assuming sane precedence)
9:12 PM
@ConorO'Brien how dare you to assume anything is sane here?
@ConorO'Brien That's horrible. +1
Could be shorter, though.
no ternary nesting gore but it might be worth it just to have ?!
@flawr there's two kinds of insanity: esolang-insane, and PHP-insane. there is also a correct kind of insanity, but I'll leave that one to you.
@UnrelatedString I like this
In some languages x+y==1 might work
9:18 PM
@UnrelatedString I tried to interpret the ? as an operator, but I can't think of a meaning for ? where that would type
second one was punctuation... and wow it really is hard to tell apart from the monospaced code
you could do something like x?!y?:y? in a language with a Rust-like ?, although it's probably impossible to have both ? … : and suffix ? in a sane language
...to make the original worse, it could be x?!y?!y:!x:y
@ngn The moderator agreement does not end when someone turns in their diamond. All confidential moderator discussion stays confidential even when a user isn't a moderator anymore. I really wish we were at liberty to talk about the circumstances, because there is a lot of guessing and misinformation going around, but because it happened in a confidential manner, we can't, lest we get demodded and probably banned.
And given that this whole fiasco centers around demodding, I'm being especially careful with what I say, because I don't want to give SE a reason to silence my criticism.
9:28 PM
@JohnDvorak or could worsen things, or could be the cause, or a different symptom of the same cause... but there's no use speculating
@flawr might as well use x!=y in that case?
@Mego someone should make a stackileaks.org :)
a while back Reddit made a number of unpopular changes; they hired an interim CEO just beforehand, a common theory being that it was so that they had someone to fire to take the heat
@ngn I prefer to believe that the community moderators are respectable enough to not do that.
9:55 PM
@Mego are you allowed to comment on what's already publicly known? i'd be interested to know a mod's assessment of how true and how complete is the picture we (ordinary users) have puzzled together. i wouldn't mind if you just say "no comment".
1 hour later…
11:07 PM
@ngn I can probably answer some of your questions if you're curious as well, but it would mostly be correcting anything that's incorrect
11:28 PM
@ngn There's not much that's been publicly stated that I can comment on, because I'm being really cautious about what information I share (due to confidentiality and a lack of trust in SE to treat its mods correctly). Even simply confirming or denying rumors could be taken as a violation of the moderator agreement. The fact that all of this went down in private makes it really hard to be able to talk about it publicly.
If you have specific questions, I'll be happy to answer them - either now if I can, or eventually when SE decides to release more information.
I'm really not happy about the fact that all this went down in private - the paranoid part of me wonders if that was intentional so that SE could control the public narrative.
11:52 PM
O.o My computer just made a ping noise at me (as in @cairdcoinheringaahing), but I haven't been pinged anywhere on chat

« first day (3166 days earlier)      last day (1661 days later) »