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5:00 PM
@TedShifrin the converse of mvt hold for all c in (a,b) such that f'(c) is not an extremum.
 
@TedShifrin Seems it
 
LOL, DogAteMy.
 
Determine the prime integers p, such that $\ mathbb F_p ^ *$ have 2 subgroups, one of order 17, G and order 19, H, such that there exists g in G with g + 1 in H.
 
Right, @NV-US. Pretty cool.
 
@user104729 It's interesting that tends to be how mathematicians learn advanced topics ("reading a little, finding something you lack, then correcting that - then returning to the text"). I think the biggest thing I need to unlearn is the expectation to go through a book linearly.
 
5:01 PM
So $p-1$ is a multiple of $17$ and $19$ then? @Dattier
 
yeah, the proof is here : math.stackexchange.com/questions/776693/… (for anyone interested).
 
if $x<d$, then the insurer pays nothing (z=0). so this won't contribute to the expectation value of $z$
 
@AkivaWeinberger : yes
 
what is the connection between boundary operators and loops? Why do they both give you the fundamental group?
 
@studrayght5 I usually go through my 'base' text linearly, and everything else is just a tool to keep that linearity.
 
5:02 PM
@NV-US: That particular proof requires second derivatives, which needn't enter the story, I believe.
 
but there are only 5 solutions, why @AkivaWeinberger
 
Please help me. please see my problem.
 
If you take $\Bbb Z \supset \Bbb Z/(83)$ and let $b = 10$ do you say that $b$ is "algebraic" over $\Bbb Z/(83)$, since it satisfies $X^2 - 17 \bmod 83$?
 
@TedShifrin i also found another proof that does not require second derivates, but it went over my head. here : jstor.org/stable/pdf/2974475.pdf
 
9291493935759704087, 15016271, 783599, 55740757,
four solutions
 
5:04 PM
oh. this is a different version, with that distorted distribution
 
I think there are not others @ÍgjøgnumMeg @AkivaWeinberger
 
@MatheinBoulomenos
 
what is the connection between boundary operators and loops? Why do they both give you the fundamental group?
 
I have a sneaking suspicion this'll be rather like computing expectation values for a fermionic partition function
 
5:06 PM
Boundary operators? they give you homology which can give you the abelianization of the fundamental group, but not the whole fundamental group
 
@NV-US: Right. I found that, too, but didn't want to hassle trying to get into JSTOR. I'd have to log in through the UGA library and it's too much hassle (if I can even still do it, not sure).
 
where there's a paywall, there's an excuse to not bother looking further :P
 
Well, students and faculty at colleges should be able to get in, @Semiclassic.
 
yeah
i more have in mind when I'm off campus and I'm trying to decide whether I actually need to read a given paper
 
You should still be able to get in, even off campus, but it's a bit more work.
 
5:09 PM
yep
 
i need your help in that proof. I can upload the pic of the proof (weak form). @TedShifrin
 
@MatheinBoulomenos what is homology?
 
@AkivaWeinberger I propose this exos, because it happens that they propose me a new trick for me.
 
 
and that little bit more work can be enough for me to say "eh, I don't really need to read this"
 
5:11 PM
Logging into anything annoys me, even checking my own email.
 
@Dattier I have no idea how to do this
 
Sure, @NV-US, you can ask :) It looks like it's got two basic ideas — the limit definition of the derivative and the intermediate value property for continuous functions. [Actually, without assuming the derivative is continuous, one can still prove it has the intermediate value property. Cool result.]
Oh, they're NOT assuming the derivative is continuous, @NV-US. That's good. They're using continuity of the secant slope.
 
@AkivaWeinberger Can you propose me an question, which you can answer with a short trick ?
 
@LeakyNun From an algebraic point of view, homology is a measure of how a chain complex fails to be exact, if you can associate a chain complex to topological spaces (or other objects), then homology gives you invariants. There's something to be said about holes and triangles, but I'm not really good at explaining geometry
 
@ALannister I think what you may want to do is not aim for the pdf right off the bat, but instead go for the cdf
...or maybe I need more coffee. I shouldn't volunteer advice when I'm not entirely awake.
 
5:14 PM
mumbles to Semiclassic that it's almost noon
 
yeah, I know
not a great sign
(11:15, but same difference)
I partly blame how gloomy it looks outside
 
@MatheinBoulomenos consider $f$ the automorphism of $\Bbb T^2 = \Bbb S^1 \times \Bbb S^1$ by swapping the two coordinates. It is not null-homotopic. How large must $n$ be such that if I embed the two tori into $\Bbb R^n$, $f$ becomes ambient-isotopic to the identity?
 
@cvsguimaraes yeah. to put it another way, the two circles only differ in their scale
 
@LeakyNun just imagine you want to somehow show that a space has hole, e.g. a solid torus. One way to show this is to show that there exists a tetrahedron embedded in that space (without interior) that is not the boundary of some tetrahedron with interior (because there's a hole in the middle). Does this make sense?
 
so if I was to plot the x^2+y^2=4 circle on a graph with bounds [-2,2]x[-2,2]
 
5:17 PM
Because both homology and fundamental groups count holes in some way or the other, it makes sene that there is some relation between them
 
i'll get the same graph as if i were to plot x^2+y^2=1 on a graph with bounds [-1,1]x[-1,1]
 
i read your message, and the properties you listed. i'll try on my own, and let you know if stuck :) @TedShifrin
 
@MatheinBoulomenos yes
 
Great, @NV-US.
 
5:18 PM
@user104729 A base text and the rest as tools to keep linearity sounds a very neat and effective way to learn! Makes total sense.
 
so the two circles are similar.
that's the same idea with the parametric case you cited. if I change b, i'll get a different graph but the only change is one of scale. the two curves will be similar
and since that's not that interest of a difference, you might as well pick b=1 (and so a=k) for convenience in plotting
 
@LeakyNun the precise relationship between fundamental groups and homology is called Hurewicz theorem
 
things are getting clearer now, thanks a lot for your time
from a programmer's perspective the notation really messes me up, sometimes they mention t sometimes don't, sometimes the actual dependency is expressed indirectly like the (k=a/b) case I mentioned at first
 
my favorite example for understanding $\pi_1$ vs. $H_1$
@cvsguimaraes well
 
5:22 PM
@LeakyNun I have no idea about that ambient isotopy question
 
I guess I can only think in terms of simple functions input -> output
need to work on that
 
@MatheinBoulomenos ok
 
note that, if you think of $a,b$ as being lengths, then $x,y$ will also be lengths
 
@Leaky: Here's a linear algebra question for you. What is the smallest $n\ge 3$ so that you can join the matrix $\begin{bmatrix} 1 & \\ & 1 \\ &&\ddots\end{bmatrix}$ to the matrix $\begin{bmatrix} & 1 \\ 1 & \\ && \ddots\end{bmatrix} in $SO(n)$? Presumably the first matrix is the identity. Can you fill in the second matrix and get a continuous path?
 
@TedShifrin wow
so we are embdding $\Bbb T^2$ in $\Bbb T^n$ and getting an ambient isotopy
 
5:24 PM
so therefore we've got a question of what units we're measuring $a,b,x,y$ in
 
but I don't know what continuous means in SO(n)
 
we could pick meters, feet, inches, nanometers, etc
and those would all be consistent
 
I know SO is a space, but I don't know anything about it
 
for that reason we should pick some reference length to set the scale of the problem
and the nicest one is b
 
@Leaky: No, in $\Bbb R^n$ is what I had in mind.
 
5:25 PM
@TedShifrin but the second matrix is swapping the two generators...
 
once we do that, it makes sense to divide everything by b to get the dimensionless ratios x/b,y/b,a/b
 
Basically you can vary the $2$-dimensional plane that you're living in and modding out by $\Bbb Z^2$ in. Hmm ... Might take a bit more.
 
or, in what's pretty much the same thing
we pick units where b=1.
 
@TedShifrin I imagine the answer is $n=3$ where you rotate around the axis $\langle(1,1,1)\rangle$
 
Precisely, Leaky. That was the point. But you're using normal directions to make everything stay orientation-preserving in the ambient space.
No, definitely won't work in 3.
 
5:27 PM
right, it doesn't work
rotation preserves orientation
 
$ \displaystyle \frac{24}{7\sqrt{7}} \int_{\pi/3}^{\pi/2} \log \left| \frac{\tan
t+\sqrt{7}}{\tan t-\sqrt{7}}\right| dt = \sum_{n\geq
1} \left(\frac n7\right)\frac{1}{n^2}$ --- where $\displaystyle \left(\frac n7\right)$ is the Legendre symbol.

I thought it was strange that this is unsolved until I tried to rewrite the RHS via Eisenstein representation of the Legendre symbol. It's a monstrosity!
 
Heya @Alessandro. Have you driven over my legs yet? :)
 
@TedShifrin how do show that $SO(n)$ is path-connected?
Hi @AlessandroCodenotti
 
@TedShifrin in S4, (12)(34) becomes an even permutation
 
5:28 PM
Aha, @Mathei. Let's not do Leaky's work for him.
 
this should be a step
 
but this is me thinking like a physics guy
 
Sorry @Ted
 
I've been trying to convince him he needs to learn linear algebra :P
 
I can imagine S4 to be a cube
 
5:29 PM
It's not a cube. It's the symmetries of a cube, but that's totally not relevant here.
You need to work with $SO(4)$ or higher.
 
actually, (1234) and (123) are rotations
 
@TedShifrin I did the driving exam but didn't pass it :P I'll try again in a month
 
@Leaky. That is irrelevant.
Whew, @Alessandro ... we're safe for another month. What did you do wrong?
 
if I can generate (12)(34) using them then I can just compose the matrices
 
Who was the person discussing unlinking/unknotting numbers a week ago?
 
5:30 PM
didn't stop at a crossing but I was supposed to
 
I can do both (1234) and (123) in SO(4) right @TedShifrin
 
Ooops ... You might have run over me, after all.
I don't know what you're talking about, @Leaky.
 
Oh it was Akiva
 
it means, id is path-connected to (1234) and also to (123)
 
5:31 PM
There's still time for that, you're never safe from an Italian driver :P
 
(1234) being the matrix $\begin{bmatrix} e_2 & e_3 & e_4 & e_1 \end{bmatrix}$
 
I do not know what you're talking about, @Leaky. We're trying to do rotation matrices in $\Bbb R^4$.
Oh, I see.
 
is this relevant now?
 
You started talking about cubes.
 
oh, sorry lol
 
5:32 PM
So we want to get from the identity to $(12)(34)$, for example?
 
@TedShifrin yes
 
OK, so can you do it? :)
 
I said, if I can generate (12)(34) from (1234) and (123) then I am done, right?
 
@TedShifrin wait, is $\begin{bmatrix} & 1 & \\ 1 & & \\ & & -1\end{bmatrix}$ not orientation-preserving? what am I missing?
 
No, we need a continuous path in the rotation group, Leaky. So I don't follow.
 
5:33 PM
@TedShifrin is there a path from id to (1234)?
 
the proof made sense to me. What i am stuck at is, after the limit definition of derivative, how can they say that there exists interval (x1,y1) and (x2,y2) such that the next inequality follows. I tried using epsilon-delta to no avail. @TedShifrin
 
Yeah, @Mathei, of course. But I was thinking about embeddings of the flat torus in $\Bbb R^n$ for $n\ge 4$. Not sure I know what to do in $\Bbb R^3$. In $\Bbb R^3$ you would have to turn it inside-out, and I don't like that.
 
$\begin{bmatrix} \cos t & & & \sin t \\ \sin t & \cos t & & \\ & \sin t & \cos t & \\ & & \sin t & \cos t \end{bmatrix}$, $t \in (0,\pi/2)$
 
OK, @NV-US. Let me look.
 
I see
That was a dumb question
 
5:35 PM
@TedShifrin am i right?
 
Certainly far from dumb, Mathei.
 
Whenever I see cycle notation my brain computes it from the "wrong" end even though it's been a while since I learned it from Herstein.
 
I doubt that's in $SO(4)$, @Leaky.
 
For that to be a rotation you'd need that to equal $\exp(t M)$ for some matrix $M$, wouldn't you?
 
Oh, @NV-US. He's using the sentence before the limit definition. Did you?
Yes, @Semiclassic. But it's pretty obvious the column vectors don't form an orthonormal set.
 
5:37 PM
oh, true
where I was going was that, if you work out what $M$ would have to be for that to work at linear order in $t$, you'd get something whose powers don't make the structure of that matrix
 
It's not very intuitive thinking about exponentiating skew-symmetric matrices, @Semiclassic.
 
Unless you are in a convenient normal form.
I personally like the Spectral Theorem. But Leaky needs to get to all that. :P
 
e1, e2, and e3 form a circle
 
in order for that to work to first-order in $t$, you'd need $M=\begin{pmatrix} 0 & 0 & 0 & 1 \\ 1 & 0 & 0 & 0 \\ 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 1 &0\end{pmatrix}$
 
5:40 PM
I don't believe that, @Semiclassic.
 
$\frac{f(x1)-f(y1)}{x1-y1}$ is the replacement for $f'(c1)$? @TedShifrin
 
What are the eigenvalues of that?
 
why? The matrix as written above is of the form $I\cos t+S\sin t$ where $S$ is the matrix I just wrote
 
Yes, @NV-US, but not exactly. By the limit definition, you can choose $x_1$ and $y_1$ close to $c_1$ so that that quotient is close to $f'(c_1)$, but, in particular, still close enough so that it's less than $f'(c)$.
So what, @Semiclassic? Am I being dopey?
You really need pure imaginary eigenvalues for this to work.
 
so if that's to equal $e^{Mt}$ one would need to have $$e^{Mt}=1+Mt+\cdots = I \cos t+S \sin t = I + S t +\cdots$$
So $M=S$
 
5:43 PM
But you're being too much of a physicist, ignoring higher order terms.
 
I'm only ignoring them momentarily.
I'm saying that, if that matrix is to be of the form $e^{M t}$, it would have to have $M=S$.
 
But you can't even get the diagonal terms to work, so why bother?
Anyhow, the damn matrix is not orthogonal, so this is stooopid.
You don't need Lie algebra anything.
 
@TedShifrin e1 e2 e3 form a circle. I need to move them continuously along the circle. then i shall have (123). right?
 
my next point is just that the higher order terms of $I\cos t+S \sin t$ would be multiples of I or S depending on even/odd order
 
5:46 PM
That's going to be a nontrivial computation, @Leaky, but I suppose you could do that.
 
but if M=S then M^2 = S^2 isn't going to be a multiple of I or S
so it's out
 
Semiclassic, I made a 0th-order observation and you're making 2nd order observations. I'm done.
 
@TedShifrin hard time, but I need to do this geometrical exercise regardless whether this is the most efficient approach
 
zeroth order it's just e^{t M}=I.
 
5:47 PM
I didn't mean that literally, geez.
 
Definition of orthogonal matrix. Done.
 
i figured not, but hey
 
$|x-c|<\delta 1, |y-c|<\delta 2$, and $|\frac{f(x)-f(y)}{x-y} - f'(c1)| < \epsilon$, are the inequalities i have (if correct). How does this show the existence of $(x1,y1)$? @TedShifrin
 
How does $(123)$ solve the problem of switching the two circles? you want something like $(13)(24)$ don't you?
 
5:48 PM
@MatheinBoulomenos if I can do (123) and (1234) then I am done
now I’m doing the first part
 
having to deal with matrix exponential computations is something I really can't afford to not have expertise at
 
So choose $\epsilon$ less than the distance from $f'(c_1)$ to $f'(c)$, first of all, @NV-US. Then pick any $x,y$ satisfying your inequalities. (You can actually have one single $\delta$, but you're fine.)
 
so I definitely default to a computational mindset when I see them
 
Not helpful for the learner, @Semiclassic.
 
meh
I'm not sure I agree with that, but it's a silly enough example that it seems not worth arguing about
 
5:50 PM
awesome @TedShifrin
 
the circle is z.(1 1 1) = 1
 
thank you
 
Sure, @NV-US ... Glad you were interested. :)
 
oh, geometry question for you @ted
suppose I've got a vector $n=(\cos \alpha,\cos\beta,\cos \gamma)$
 
the way you explain, i really want to study under your guidance :) @TedShifrin
 
5:52 PM
LOL, thanks, @NV-US. All I can offer is my 112 video lectures :P
 
and |z|=1
 
sup chat
 
Heya Eric :)
 
I'm not assuming $\|n\|^2=1$, to be clear
 
@TedShifrin right! thanks
 
5:53 PM
Sure, @Liad :)
 
Hi @Eric
 
I gathered that, @Semiclassic.
 
right.
suppose I've got $\gamma=\alpha+\beta$.
 
@TedShifrin By spectral theorem, do you mean using the fact that every orthogonal matrix is a product of an even number of reflections?
 
Is there an obvious geometric way to interpret the set of $n$ satisfying that?
 
5:55 PM
No, @Mathei. I mean the normal form you get from having a normal operator. :)
 
x+y+z=1, xy+yz+xz=0
 
what I came up with didn't seem as nice as I'd have hoped. one has $n_3 = \cos(\alpha+\beta)=\cos\alpha\cos \beta-\sin\alpha\sin \beta$
 
x^2 + y^2 + z^2 = 1
 
Right, @Semiclassic. That's all I know, too.
 
so therefore $\sin\alpha\sin\beta = \cos \alpha\cos\beta-\cos(\alpha+\beta)=n_1 n_2 -n_3$
 
5:57 PM
@user104729 Yeah
 
and then I can square both sides to get $\sin^2\alpha\sin^2\beta = (1-n_1^2)(1-n_2^2)=(n_1n_2-n_3)^2$
which rearranges to. 1-n1^2-n2^2+n1^2 n2^2 = n1^2 n2^2 +n3^2-2n1 n2 n3 -> $n_1^2+n_2^2+n_3^2 = 1+2n_1 n_2 n_3$
 
let X = x-1/3 etc, then X+Y+Z=0 and X^2+Y^2+Z^2 = 2/3
 
@TedShifrin can u explain in laymen terms the difference between the weak form and strong form of converse of mvt.
 
@Mathei: You get a $2\times 2$ block decomposition into rotations, so it's highly useful :P
 
Ah no, I need to use the spectral theorem in my approach as well, lol
 
5:58 PM
Hello
 
 
@Semiclassic: This doesn't look like geometry. It looks like yucky algebra/trig.
 
I tend to agree
but that last one isn't so bad
$n_1^2+n_2^2+n^3=1+2n_1 n_2n_3$
it's sufficiently nice that I'm wondering if there's a name for that surface, or at least how it behaves in the positive orthant
 
why am I struggling to parametrise a godforsaken circle
 

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