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6:00 AM
do you get this?
 
all of it tbh, well i understand that G_G/H is isomorphic to S_n
that part is very clear
 
kernels are normal subgroups, so if G is simple the kernel must be trivial
(the other case, the kernel being all of G, is not possible ... because?)
 
@anon really?
 
well G acting on G/H is transitive action
it cant have kernel just 1
 
@LeakyNun I think we're using G=A_5 here
 
6:01 AM
i mean ><
it cant have kernel all of G
yes anon
A_5
 
indeed, the only way ker(f)=G is if H=G
anyway, so f:G->S_n is one-to-one since the kernel is trivial
so G embeds as a subgroup of S_n
(the image of the homomorphism is an isomorphic copy of G sitting inside S_n)
 
okay that part is clear now, but i Think where am lost is , where we switched from G acting on G/H to the permutation representation of that
 
so by Lagrange's theorem, |G| divides |S_n|=n!
 
embeds means injective hom ?
 
yes
 
6:04 AM
please give me a moment to read that
 
@KasmirKhaan what do you mean "switched"? the phrase "permutation action" is literally just talking about G acting on G/H, no? there's no switch.
 
@TedShifrin The Villarceau circle is an invariant of the non-trivial automorphism of $\Bbb T^2$
which is very trivial if you think of it algebraically
 
@LeakyNun the nontrivial automorphism?
 
but has fundamental meanings if you think of it geometrically
@anon by swapping the two coordinates
($\Bbb T^2 := \Bbb S^1 \times \Bbb S^1$)
 
GL(2,Z) acts on it by group automorphisms
 
6:06 AM
1 min ago, by Leaky Nun
which is very trivial if you think of it algebraically
 
dunno what your reposting that is supposed to mean
 
never mind
 
@anon ok so far makes sense
the embedding of G into S_n
 
I guess by nontrivial you might mean orientation-swapping, mod orientation-preserving ones
 
@anon you can interpret it that way
whereas when I said it, "trivial" just meant "easy"
 
6:08 AM
why does it emply |G| divides |S_n|
i feel it is simple argument but
 
here's a fun fact
the trefoil knot foliates the torus
 
@LeakyNun I was responding to the phrase "the nontrivial automorphism"
 
so in a way the torus is trefoil cross circle
alright
 
@KasmirKhaan I just said why: Lagrange's theorem
 
yes i know that
 
6:09 AM
@KasmirKhaan the image of G is a subgroup of S_n
 
but why that injective hom
 
because it is nontrivial
is that the right word?
or it is faithful?
 
because it's kernel is nontrivial
 
we have G is "inside" S_n element by element paring
why does that make it a subgroup of S_n
to use lagrange?
 
(the homomorphism itself being nontrivial would not imply injective. calling it faithful would be the same as calling it injective)
@KasmirKhaan G is isomorphic to a subgroup G' of S_n. the isomorphism theorems are really, really important. you need to have them burned into memory.
 
6:11 AM
@anon well he said "embedding"
so annulus with the inner ring glued is a disc
 
mobius loop with the central circle glued is a disc
does that mean annulus = mobius @_@
they are both quotients of annulus of index 2 (whatever that means)
 
@anon just last thing , how using iso theorems here was crutual ?
 
G being isomorphic to a subgroup G' of S_n
 
@anon is there only one villarceau circle? I mean, is there left and right?
 
6:14 AM
is this from the map G--> S_n being injective?
injective hom
 
@LeakyNun they are two distinct homotopy classes of unbased loops I think
@KasmirKhaan yes
 
but the isomorphism theorem talks about surjective hom
which one did we use here?
G/ker f isomorphic to im(f)
that one i was referring to
 
yes, G/ker(f) is isomorphic to img(f)
 
ah
by the chain it makes sense
im(f) has some order has G/kerf in our case
since im(f) is a subgroup of s_n
 
is a solid torus the same as a ball? @anon yet two solid tori with boundary glued is the same as two balls wth boundary glued...
 
6:17 AM
forces order of G to divide n!
by lagrange
@anon I Think I got it :D
@anon thanks anon ! :)
 
although the gluing in the first case is "the" nontrivial automorphism
 
not sure if you're being rhetorical or actually asking me
 
15 mins ago, by Leaky Nun
@TedShifrin The Villarceau circle is an invariant of the non-trivial automorphism of $\Bbb T^2$
 
what do you mean anon ?
 
did I say "an" invariant? no, it's "the" invariant. in a sense I have found "the" invariant of the nontrivial automorphism
 
6:20 AM
I did not ask you, i said thanks :
 
@anon both, really
@KasmirKhaan he was responding me
 
oh ><
that was embarasing <<
okay kasmir will keep Reading ! thanks again guys,
 
a huge step towards visualizing the automorphism
12 hours ago, by Leaky Nun
How do you visualize the non-trivial diffeomorphism between the torus and itself by swapping the two coordinates?
I mean, you can't really visualize it, but I essentially characterised it, right
it's the automorphism that fixes the Villarceau circle
 
yes, the only nontrivial matrix in GL(2,Z) that fixes (1,1) is {{0,1},{1,0}}
 
how many subgroups does GL(n,R) have?
 
6:26 AM
uncountably many. do you mean conjugacy classes of discrete subgroups?
 
sure, whatever makes my question works
 
not sure
 
I mean, apart from SL and Z, can you point out other subgroups?
 
@LeakyNun you can visualize it by pulling the torus out to an infinite cylinder, then expanding the ends of the cylinder until they come back together. it kind of turns the torus inside out, and ends up swapping inside and outside.
@LeakyNun are you sure you mean GL(n,R) and not GL(n,Z)?
 
@anon actually, I meant GL(n,F)
and Z meant the centre
 
6:29 AM
it's got the heisenberg subgroup
diagonal subgroup
unipotent matrices
 
interesting
 
you can use subfields or even subrings of F to get other matrix subgroups
 
oh, and I meant normal subgroup
 
....
 
sorry
then is SL and Z all of them?
@anon but those aren't interesting
 
6:32 AM
according to Derek Holt, the normal subgroups of GL(n,F) are all subgroups of Z(GL(n,F)) and all subgroups containing SL(n,F), except in the case of GL(2,2) and GL(2,3)
 
interesting
 
this is basically because $PSL$ is simple except for those two cases
 
in the representation of RP3 as R3 with a north pole, how does it work?
 
R^3 with a point at infinity
are you talking about turning T^2 inside-out again?
 
when I said "work", I mean do I treat the north pole as living in another dimension? i.e. should I ignore it for things that don't involve it?
i.e. if I have a loop through the north pole, is it null-homotopic?
@anon isn't it amazing that the complement of solid T^2 is still solid T^2 in RP3
in a sense, the Hopf map gives you $\Bbb Z^2/\langle1,1\rangle$...
 
6:38 AM
point at infinity, and yes a loop would be null-homotopic. it may help to use R^2 as a model for S^2 as a visual aid. (also you're talking about S^3, not RP^3, methinks/mehopes)
 
which isn't exactly easy to imagine
@anon they're the same
 
not quite
 
how so
 
RP^3 has a nontrivial loop, S^3 doesn't, for instance
 
does it?
you can always pick another point to be the infinity, can you not
 
6:39 AM
I mean, if you look at RP^2 embedded in 3-space you can see how crazy weird it is compared to S^2. just as a taste.
 
i.e. fractional transform!
 
dunno what you're saying. yes RP^3 has a nontrivial loop.
 
@anon I thought RP^n = S^n
 
nope
 
which loop?
 
6:40 AM
take any great circle in S^n, then its image under the double cover RP^n->S^n will be a nontrivial loop
 
@LeakyNun RP^n is a quotient of S^n but they are not homeomorphic
 
@AlessandroCodenotti hmm
 
better to talk a great semicircle between antipodal points in RP^n actually
 
RP^3 is homeomorphic (even diffeomorphic iirc) to SO(3) if the latter makes more sense to you intuitevely
 
you can visualize essentially the same nontrivial loop in RP^2, viewing it as D^2/~ with antipodal points on the boundary identified.
 
6:42 AM
Is RP^n the same as R^n U {infty}?
 
no, R^n U {inf} is a way of thinking about S^n via stereographic pojection / one-point compactification
it is not the same as RP^n
 
interesting
 
No, RP^n is homeomorphic to the Alexandroff compactification of R^n only for n=1
 
but RP^n is still just R^n plus a point at infinity is it not?
 
no it isn't
 
6:44 AM
The intuitive idea is that in RP^2 you have a projective line at infinity
And so on in higher dimensions
 
but CP^n is C^n plus a point at infinity?
 
no
 
what
hmm
I have always been thinking about $n=1$
never mind
apparently there's n-1 dimensional infinity in RP^n?
because you're dividing by the (n+1)-th coordinate
 
there's a schubert cell decomposition $\mathbb{RP}^n = \mathbb{R}^n \sqcup \mathbb{R}^{n-1}\sqcup\cdots\sqcup\mathbb{R}^1\sqcup\mathbb{R}^0$, but they are not the same as topological spaces if one treats the disjoint union as an operation on topological spaces
 
hmm
 
6:47 AM
RP^n is nonzero vectors in R^(n+1) mod the action of R*
S^n is nonzero vectors in R^(n+1) mod the action of positive reals
 
right
 
7:01 AM
@anon why does it seem to me that the infinity is connected to other points here?
Isn't it supposed to be geometrically distinct from the other points?
 
No, any point is a valid point at infinity. Think about projective space as a quotient of a sphere
you can just rotate it
 
@MatheinBoulomenos I know, I'm talking about how it's presented in the video
 
7:28 AM
Help. I need to stay awake.
 
[Some plans for an event in Mathworks]
I am figuring to hold a panel like discussion involving some regulars of the chat. However a couple of challenges have to be overcame first:
1. I'd like to have a topic on the history of mathematics, but as far I know, no regulars are particularly well versed on that field, and I am not very qualified either as the host because my knowledge on maths history is haphazard
2. Even if we managed to find some, how should it be done, and what is the best date
 
8:07 AM
(Of course I can easily read up a bit to start the topic, but the topic will die if there are not enough people that contribute relevant information. Hmm, I guess I need to think about this more...)
 
8:44 AM
Not out of your hair yet.
0
Q: Insurance premiums -probability density and expectation

ALannisterConsider for one car owner the insurance policy with the following clauses: Deductible: If the loss $X>d$, then the insurer pays only for loss above $d>0$. Coverage Limit: If the loss $X>l$, then the insurer pays only for loss below $l>d$. Distorted Distribution: The insurer may base the premiu...

Once I figure this out, no more probability for a while.
 
8:56 AM
@TedShifrin Hi , got a question for when you're back:
Remember the function we talked about the other day $f(w) = \int_{\gamma} 1/(z-w) dz$ ? we saw that $f'(w) =\int_{\gamma} 1/(z-w) \ ^ 2dz $ and we saw that $g(z) = 1/(z-w) \ ^ 2 $ has a primitive , $G(z) = -1 / (z-w)$ so we wanted to conclude that $\int_{\gamma} g(z) dz = 0$ , the problem with it that i see is that $G$ is not a primitive on the ball $B(z_0 , R) $ since $G(w)$ is not defined and cant be continuously defined. how to overcome this?
 
Let $T : R^n -> R^m$ be a linear transformation, then show that $T$ is continously differentiable and in fact $T'(x) = T$ for every $x$.
I was able to prove that it is continous
help please
 
What's the definition of differentiability? @NV-US
 
9:12 AM
@NV-US How can $T'(x) = T$ make sense? On one side you have a vector and on the other a function.
 
i am doing this in analysis, where its $lim_{x->x_{0}} \frac{||(f(x)-f(x_{0})-f'(x_{0})(x-x_{0}))||}{||x-x_{0}||}=0$, @Daminark
@TobiasKildetoft this is given in my book
 
@Tobias $T'$ is interpreted here as a map from the point $x$ to the derivative of $T$ at $x$, which is a linear map
This is a thing I often see done
 
@Daminark Ahh, I see
 
Hi Tobias :D
 
Okay @NV-US, so we're trying to postulate the existence of some linear map $f'(x_0):\mathbb{R}^n\to\mathbb{R}^m$, right?
Now, what's the suspect?
 
9:19 AM
I wonder if you can give me some tips on how to do representation theory for finite groups
ie,if you know of online lectures
 
I dont get the meaning of T'(x) = T @Daminark
 
or books or what is needed to take that course
that would be great :D
 
So, $T'(x)$ is the derivative of $T$ at $x$
The derivative of a function at a point is a linear map, correct?
 
what is up dramalertnation
 
Interrupting cow @Balarka
 
9:20 AM
it's your boy shrek allstar
 
yes
@Daminark
 
@Daminark That sounds like something from a 50's comic. "Holy interrupting cow, Batman!"
 
slaps Robin
 
I hope Tobias seen what i asked him ._.
 
@NV-US so thinking about this in general, if you have a function $f:\mathbb{R}^n\to\mathbb{R}^m$ (also for an open subset but don't worry about that now), we have that $f'$ should be a function that tells you what the derivative of $f$ is at a point $x$
Formally, this means $f':\mathbb{R}^n\to \mathcal{L}(\mathbb{R}^n,\mathbb{R}^n)$
@Tobias it comes from a knock knock joke actually
"Knock knock" "Who's there?" "Interrupting cow" "Interrupting cow wh- MOOOOOO"
 
9:23 AM
@KasmirKhaan I can link you the notes I wrote to teach from this semester, though they are structured slightly unusually since I needed to stay within the topics covered previously and had a particular goal in mind
 
ok @daminark
so what am i supposed to prove here?
 
@TobiasKildetoft that would be great :D thanks :D
 
Well, do you understand why that expression makes sense?
 
$T'$ should take each point to some linear map, and you're trying to prove that this linear map is $T$
Well, I guess because they said so in the question, I may as well spill it: this is the suspect for the derivative
 
9:25 AM
whaaaaaaaattttt
 
So now what you need to do is prove that it is a derivative
 
@TobiasKildetoft thanks :D
@TobiasKildetoft how much of the linear algebra does one need?
 
i am sorry, i dont get it. $f' : R^n - > L(R^n,R^n)$, why?
 
@Kasmir approximately 47%
 
@KasmirKhaan Surprisingly little. Mainly basics of vector spaces and linear maps as well as eigenvectors and eigenvalues
 
9:27 AM
@TobiasKildetoft okay ill focus on those :D mathein told me you are the rep theory expert =p
just to be clear ._.
rep theory for finite group
those note you sent me were about right?
 
@NV-US just unpack that statement. $f'$ should take a point $x$ in the domain of $f$ and send it to the derivative of $f$ at $x$. So it takes a point and spits out a linear map from $\mathbb{R}^n$ to $\mathbb{R}^n$
 
I dont know if they is more Courses with that name ._.
@Daminark -.-
 
@KasmirKhaan Yes, finite groups, and only over the complex numbers to keep everything simple
 
I Think that is what we are going to do :D
Is there some good lectures you know of about that?
i have the month of december to prepare for this course
 
@KasmirKhaan about what?
 
9:30 AM
i will take it on january
and i want to be as prepared as possible
well about rep theory :D
Ill do some Review of linear algebra ,mostly the topics you mentioned
 
not sure what sort of lectures you mean
 
but f was from R^n to R^m, so f ', should it not be a map from R^n to R^m? @Daminark
 
well like Courses on class but they are online
you know >< Courses on youtube and stuff
 
@NV-US I fear you may be making the wrong analogy with single variable calculus
 
:'(
 
9:32 AM
If you think about what the derivative is there, it sounds a lot like a map from $\mathbb{R}$ to $\mathbb{R}$
What I'm saying does specialize to that context
You know how to prove that any linear map $\mathbb{R}\to\mathbb{R}$ is of the form $f(x) = ax$, right?
 
no
trying
 
Have you had a linear algebra course yet? One that talked about vector spaces and linear maps?
 
i did
how can i prove this?
 
This should be a very easy exercise, it follows immediately from the definition
 
ok, i'll try again
 
9:40 AM
Normally I'd hint you through this, but it's short, and if I remember right you're a graduate student. If this is the case, you really want to learn how to execute these sorts of linear algebra arguments independently before it really bites you
 
Hey Martin, I am figuring to organise some kind of mathematical history open discussion, any idea on the best way to set it up?
 
you are right. My basics are weak.
 
@PyRulez As I see the sentence "Category theory is cool." in your profile, maybe it's worth mentioning that category theory chatroom has been created recently. Let's hope some users interested in the topic start visiting this room and the activity in the room will increase.
@Secret You mean in chat? Or in real life?
 
Chat (cannot do it in real life obviously as I don't even have a maths degree)
 
9:44 AM
I can say that T(x) = Ax, where A is a 1x1 matrix (a scalar), from the fact that if T: R^n -> R^m then T(x) = Ax where A is a mxn matrix. I can prove this fact. Will this do? @Daminark
 
I don't really have much advice. (As you can see I was not very successful with the stuf I've attempted to start in chat.)
 
That is valid, though it still is good practice to prove this straight from the definition. If you know the proof of the latter fact already, it specializes immediately
If not, it still can be done (and you should try to tackle the general fact as well)
 
@Secret Why don't we continue in another chat room, so that we do not have here several conversations going on at the same time.
 
sure
 
@NV-US if you are feeling like your linear algebra needs some brushing up, I would recommend finding a book on that and reading it before trying to continue in multivariable calculus
 
9:48 AM
how will you prove it by definition? @Daminark
 
Multi tends to want you to have your linear algebra down like it's nobody's business
Well, what's the definition of linearity?
 
i will find a good book, but my exams are close, so i dont have the time right now.
T(cx + dy) = cT(x) + dT(y)
@Daminark
this is correct, right?
 
Yes, and note that this must hold for all $x,y,c$, and $d$, right?
 
yes
 
Okay, so general rule in math that you'll want to keep in mind (at least at the level I've worked with it, it's been quite useful)
If you know that a fact holds for all values of some variable, you can often gain information by plugging in a specific, well-chosen value
 
9:54 AM
like T(0) = 0
 
Exactly. So what happens if we let $y = 0$?
 
T(cx) = cT(x)
 
Perfect. Now, let's specialize to the case we were talking about earlier, if $T:\mathbb{R}\to\mathbb{R}$
We want to find $T(a)$, and we know that for any $x$ and $c$, we have that $T(cx) = cT(x)$. What would be a natural choice for $x$ and $c$ here that could help us?
 
x=1, then T(c) = cT(1) for all c in R. Nice
 
Perfect! :D
 
9:58 AM
tysm, you are awesome
but i still dont understand my original question :(
 
Now let's return to the analysis situation. I want you to take me on faith for now that $f':\mathbb{R}^n\to \mathcal{L}(\mathbb{R}^n,\mathbb{R}^m)$, and let's plug in $m=n=1$
 
ok
 
So $f':\mathbb{R}\to \mathcal{L}(\mathbb{R},\mathbb{R})$
But remember that a linear transformation from $\mathbb{R}$ to $\mathbb{R}$ is defined by a single number, namely $T(1)$, as you just proved
So $\mathcal{L}(\mathbb{R},\mathbb{R})$ is in fact isomorphic to $\mathbb{R}$
That's why you can think of it in this way
"it in this way" meaning that $f':\mathbb{R}\to\mathbb{R}$
This is why I said that you seem to be making the wrong generalization from single variable to multi, since if you look at that, you may read it off as "okay $f'$ has the same domain/target space that $f$ does", which isn't the case
Geometrically, you say that at a given point, $f'$ tells you what the slope of the tangent line to the curve at $x_0$ is. The slope of the tangent line determines the tangent line because of your argument above
 
i was not thinking of it this way
whatever i was thinking was wring
wrong*
 
Well, hopefully you now have a better idea
 
10:12 AM
one question
if $f: R^n -> R^M$, so does it not follow that $f' : R^n -> R^m$, it follows in single variable, but not in multi variable? this is what u meant to say? do u have any example?
it follows in single variable
 
In essence, but the way I would like to phrase it is that $f':\mathbb{R}^n\to\mathcal{L}(\mathbb{R}^n,\mathbb{R}^m)$ is the generally correct fact
 
any contradiction example you have for multi variable?
it follows in multi variable too?
 
Yes, that's true always. The reason is because of what I said some time back: the derivative should take in a point and spit out the derivative of $f$ at that point, which is a linear map
 
ohk
 
It's just a freak accident that if the dimension of everything is $1$, the two correspond, but in general it's not the case, and literally any derivative in higher dimensions will be your example
 
10:18 AM
ok, i get your point. So i need to prove that the linear transformation to which f' is mapping is f itself
yes?
 
Yes
So now you go the definition of the derivative
(at a point)
 
the one i posted above?
using the definition above and substituting f' = f, i was able to prove it
but that seemed forceful
 
That's precisely how you do it
 
how did u get the fact that T' is indeed T
 
So the idea behind trying to find it comes from intuition
The derivative is a linear approximation to a function near a point. So a linear approximation of a linear function should be linear
This is one of those proofs where you want to reason for a bit and try to find a suspect for the derivative
Once you have a suspect, try it to see if it works. In this case it was relatively simple, and it was stated in the question, but in general it may not work, in which case you try to find what failed, look back at your reasoning, etc
 
10:23 AM
oooh
 
It's another general principle that I'd recommend adopting, at least at this stage. If you're trying to prove an existence statement, see if a natural suspect just jumps out at you, either immediately or after having reasoned about the problem for a while
 
the approximation of a linear function should be linear, why?
ok got it
 
A function approximates itself, right?
 
yes, if you are in a close neighbourhood, very close, and still inside the domain
 
Not even that
 
10:26 AM
then?
 
To say that $f$ approximates $g$ near a point $x$, and I am speaking in the vaguest of terms, is to say that $|f(x)-g(x)|$ is small, right?
 
yes
 
Right now nothing is rigorous, my explanation of the above was a heuristic that one would use to inspire the guess that the derivative of a linear function is linear, not a rigorous proof (which is what you did)
Well, $f$ obviously approximates $f$ in that case, since $|f(x)-f(x)| = 0$
 
yes, it does
 
And if $f$ is linear, it is a linear approximation of itself. That's the heuristic/intuition/whatever you wanna call it
So that's why we should guess that $f'(x) = f$ (or, in the previous notation, $T'(x) = T$)
And lo and behold, it works
 
10:29 AM
nice line
i get your point
 
Awesome!
Also, one thing I never got to respond to earlier was when you said that eventually you'll get a linear algebra book but that you have exams in the short run
I realize the temptation to engage crisis-management mode, and be focusing on the most urgent matter at hand, but I'd strongly encourage breaking out of it
 
how do u mean?
 
I'm not sure if you'll be able to handle exams in multivariable calculus without a strong working knowledge of linear algebra. If you don't have the time to get both up to par, then you may be screwed one way or another, I'd consult your professor
The level of mastery required may vary from place to place
 
you are right
my basics are weak
 
But on general principle, people should have a good understanding of linear algebra and be able to work with it easily before trying to approach calculus, since the latter seriously relies on the former
I don't know the details of your situation and how your exams will look like, maybe there is a way to get around it temporarily
 
10:36 AM
i started reading linear algebra book by hoffman, but it was tough and i gave in half-way
to tell u the truth, i have dropped my linear algebra course this semester
i was not able to understand
in this december break, i plan to study linear algebra and modern algebra, so that i know atleast basic stuff
 
But, and I do not say this with any intention to offend, the fact that you had some difficulty with the linear algebra question I asked above is somewhat worrying, in multivariable calculus, especially in a grad class, they won't likely forgive this lack of understanding
 
:'(
 
Ah, that's a bit of a problem. I'd recommend consulting your multi teacher as soon as possible to let him/her know of the situation, and take whatever advice you're given to heart
I used Hoffman and Kunze and liked it for the most part, but it can be a bit tricky since it requires being approached with a certain mindset that isn't shared by all
I don't usually recommend this book, but it may be helpful in your case: Look up linear algebra done right
Author is Sheldon Axler
 
written down
ted also recommended me a book, by artin for modern algebra
i'll look into these books
you were a great help :)
thank you
 
Artin is good for an integrated treatment of the two, so you wouldn't need to get two different books for groups/rings/fields and standard-fare linear algebra
No problem!
 
11:07 AM
Look at #3 and #4 in the list
passed all the competition man pewdiepie is next
 
Lolol, nice
 
The video with the highest percentage of dislikes is by the youtube team
Ouch, that's got to hurt
 
BBBBuuuuurrrreeeeeaaauuucccrraaccyyyy = youtube team lol
Actually conjecture:
Given anything that is tied to Bureaucracy, it will always receive the most dislikes
 
11:22 AM
Oof
 
Hello! Are there anybody here who would like to help me with a problem I've got problems with? It is about a first order differential equation.
0
Q: Find the first order differential equation describing how the amount of poison changes, by interpreting this text

Andreas Almgren Translation: A pond has $500000$ liters of water in it. The pond contains $y$ liters of poison after $t$ years. Assume that the poison is evenly distributed throughout the pond. The water flows out of the pond with the speed of one tenth per year of the actual amount of water, and new water ...

 

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