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6:00 PM
Could someone explain why we define continuity in terms of open sets being mapped to open sets in analysis?
 
@TedShifrin nevermind, there are numerous examples at the end of pdf
 
*preimages of open sets being open
 
that isnt right @maimslap
 
You need to use change-of-basis and rotate to make your plane a standard coordinate plane where you know how to parametrize a circle. Either that, or you need an orthonormal basis for the plane (through the origin), @Leaky. Either way, you need some linear algebra.
 
yeah preimages of open sets being open
sorry
 
6:01 PM
if I plot it, it just seems to be a double cone along the n1=n2=n3 direction
though only half of the cone is meaningful, since cosines can't exceed 1
 
@TedShifrin you mean of the plane x+y+z=0?
 
@maimslap cause it makes proving general theorems easy
 
where is the motivation for that? I don't ask for too much motivation (Rudin...), but that seems too specific
 
Yes, @Leaky.
Sorry, @Semiclassic. I can't engage.
 
6:02 PM
fair enough
 
lets say 1 -1 0 and 0 1 -1, normalized
 
now I'm trying to figure out what a cone along the x=y=z direction would look like
 
nope
 
@EricSilva that's the only reason? There's no other motivation?
 
You need orthonormal, @Leaky.
 
6:04 PM
idk if I have a good justification, but it took a long time to come up with the right generalizations that captured how continuity behaved, it wasnt easy to come up with @maimslap so I don't know if we should be able to armchair reason why it is the right definition
 
@TedShifrin the examples for strong form of converse of mvt are very advanced. I'l leave them for another time. Thank you for the help.
good night
 
the post-hoc reason is that when you start doing proofs everything works exactly how you'd want
 
Night, @NV-US. :)
 
yeah once you use that, proofs become a lot simpler if you're using point set topology I suppose.
 
Well the USA was nice while it lasted.
 
6:07 PM
@PVAL are you referring to the tax thing
 
@PVAL: I haven't checked the news this morning.
 
rip
 
was it?
 
@TedShifrin (1 -1 0)/sqrt(2) and (1 1 -2)/sqrt(6)
 
6:08 PM
I am hoping that there will be enough Republican objection. Several people are making loud noises.
OK, @Leaky.
 
yeah
I mean, health care passed in the House as well
 
@Mike solid no from me
 
but it never managed to get through in the Senate
so it getting this far doesn't guarantee anything.
that said...
counting the GOP out when it comes to ways to make the world worse
seems like a bad option
 
tax cut for billionaires but gotta tax them broke grad students !
 
so $(\cos t + \sqrt 3 \sin t, \cos t - \sqrt 3 \sin t, -2\cos t)/3$
add 1 to each coordinate
 
6:11 PM
tax cuts for some, miniature american flags for others!
 
@TedShifrin offset t by 60° in the first column, 180° in the second, 300° in the third.
then we have (123)
 
I don't understand that comment.
 
now, (123)(234)=(12)(34) so we are done
 
@Leaky: Mike and PVAL are the people to whom you should pose this ambient isotopy question.
 
I'm all but convinced that x^2 + y^2 + z^2 = 1 + 2 x y z is a cone
 
6:15 PM
@TedShifrin I’m describing the columns of my matrix
 
with vertex at (1,1,1) and axis along the line x=y=z
 
Well, @Semiclassic, translate by the $(1,1,1)$ and is it homogeneous?
 
lesse
 
@TedShifrin t from 60° to 180° in the first column, 180° to 300° in the second, 300° to 60° in the third
 
hrm
if I replace (x,y,z)->(1+x,1+y,1+z), the above becomes x^2 + y^2 + z^2 = 2 (x y z + x y + y z + z x)
 
6:18 PM
@PVAL @MikeM: Leaky is asking an interesting question. What is the least $n$ for which we can embed the torus in $\Bbb R^n$ and get an ambient isotopy from the identity to the map that switches the orientation on (any) tangent space?
 
ie let my vector there be r(t) then my path is [r(t-60°) r(t-180°) r(t-300°)] where t ranges from 0° to 120°
this gives me a path from id to (123)
now compose it with (234) and we are done
 
@Leaky, you shouldn't be changing $t$ by different amounts in different slots. That makes no sense.
 
@TedShifrin it’s by the same amount
 
which isn't homogeneous :/
 
so we can do it in T^4
 
6:19 PM
@Semiclassic: Not homogeneous. Therefore, not cone.
 
that seems to sink it, yeah
hmm
 
I think you can do this without parametrizing anything
 
Actually, for small x,y,z the xyz term vanishes fastest
 
Well, of course, @Semiclassic, but so what?
 
And if we drop that then it’s homogeneous of degree 2
 
6:22 PM
Um ... you're just talking about the tangent cone of this thing at the origin when you do that.
 
You can complete the square in the quadratic stuff and see what it is. But you can't just throw away the third-order stuff unless you're a physicist and are lying.
12
 
lmao
 
Well, I agree that it’s not going to be a cone
 
take that physicists lol
 
6:23 PM
Hey, at least I didn't call him a Repugnican. :P
 
But I think what I’m seeing from my plot is that it does have a conical singularity there
 
lol. I hope the graduate students in here are stoked for that new era taxation
taxation of tuition waivers :thinking:
 
Physicists engaging in the highest levels of deception
 
so I need 4 dimensions to visualize the automorphism of $\Bbb T^2$ @_@
 
Hi @Daminark
 
6:26 PM
@Antonios-AlexandrosRobotis yeah grad school is gonna be a fun time
 
So I guess I’m arguing that, near (1,1,1) it behaves like x^2 + y^2 + z^2 = 2 ( x y + y z + z x)
And that can be a cone
 
It is. And you can see the rank by linear algebra or high school algebra.
 
Mmkay
 
The quadratic form is the matrix with all $1$'s ... so this is a very degenerate cone (rank $1$).
 
Oh. One obvious manifestation of it not being a cone
 
6:29 PM
Honestly I just hope they decide on whether they'll do this or not soon since that'll really influence my decision
 
Is that the z=0 cross section of x^2+y^2+z^2 =1+2xyz is x^2+y^2 = 1
 
I'm not sure if it'll pass.
But, it could. Right in time for me to start a PhD.
To Europe I go... !
 
But z=0 isn’t normal to the axis x=y=z so the cross section shouldn’t be a circle
 
Things are going to get bloody, and there are enough republicans who won't vote for it, I think.
@Semiclassic, where did the $xy, yz, xz$ terms go?
 
This is back for the original surface, before shifting by (1,1,1)
 
6:32 PM
if it ends up passing brazil for grad school looks like more of an option
 
@TedShifrin bonsoir, s'il vous plait comment trouver l'équation de la droite tangente à un cercle de rayon 2 et de centre 0=(0,0) et passe par le point $A=(3,0)$
 
So the surface is x^2+y^2+z^2=1+2xyz
 
$$A(t) = \begin{bmatrix} \dfrac {1 + 2 \cos t} 3 & \dfrac {1 - \cos t - \sqrt 3 \sin t} 3 & \dfrac {1 - \cos t + \sqrt 3 \sin t} 3 \\ \dfrac {1 - \cos t + \sqrt 3 \sin t} 3 & \dfrac {1 + 2 \cos t} 3 & \dfrac {1 - \cos t - \sqrt 3 \sin t} 3 \\ \dfrac {1 - \cos t - \sqrt 3 \sin t} 3 & \dfrac {1 - \cos t + \sqrt 3 \sin t} 3 & \dfrac {1 + 2 \cos t} 3 \end{bmatrix}$$
@TedShifrin $t$ from $0$ to $2\pi/3$ gives you (123)
 
Oh, I messed up my matrix, @Semiclassic. Hold on.
 
then $\begin{bmatrix}1\\&A\end{bmatrix}$ gives you (234)
composing them gives you (123)(234)=(12)(34)
 
6:34 PM
@Leaky: OK, I'm not checking you. Now you have to see how this helps you. I just posed the linear algebra question.
 
And if this were a cone whose axis is x=y=z then the z=0 cross-section should be some non-circular conic
 
9 mins ago, by Leaky Nun
so I need 4 dimensions to visualize the automorphism of $\Bbb T^2$ @_@
 
No one says it's a circular cone, Semiclassic.
 
actually it's 5 dimensions, since $\Bbb T^4 \hookrightarrow \Bbb R^5$ (am i right?)
 
Symmetry does
Oh, wait
Hm, okay
 
6:36 PM
@Leaky: No, I am suggesting doing this in $\Bbb R^4$, not $\Bbb T^4$.
 
So all that does is rule out it being a circular cone
 
@TedShifrin my automorphism is (12), but taking basis as the fundamental group of $\Bbb T^2$
 
To rule out being a cone entirely, one needs the homogeneity argument
 
So $x^2+y^2+z^2=(x-y-z)^2 - 2yz$, so we get coefficients of $1, -2, 0$. Eigenvalues will have the same signs. So you get a cone over a hyperbola.
 
if I embed it in $\Bbb T^4$, then I can use the other two dimensions to have (12)(34), which is (12) inside the torus
 
6:37 PM
Cone over a hyperbola?
Haven’t seen that phrase before
I’m also not seeing where the surface you just gave cane from
 
Oh, I typo'ed. There should have been $-2(xy+xz+yz)$ on the LHS.
That was your equation with the shift.
 
I’ve probably made things confusing by using x,y,z in both coordinate systems
Kk
Yeah, that I’ll buy
 
You have in (non-orthogonal) coordinates $x'^2 - y'^2 = 0$.
Not sure where your circle cross-section comes from.
 
So (x-y-z)^2-2yz =0 is the form you wanted?
@TedShifrin z=0 in the non-shifted coordinates
So z=-1 in the shifted coordinates
 
Oh, crap. Still wrong.
 
6:43 PM
Yeah
I’m getting mixed up
 
@Semiclassical what kind of expectation is that that you said it was like calculating?
 
@ALannister not sure in retrospect, I think I wasn’t thinking clearly
 
I'm trying to do too many things at once.
 
@TedShifrin so what's the faster way to go from id to (12)(34) in SO(4)?
 
I think the first part is like a Radon-Nikodym derivative thingy.
 
6:46 PM
@Leaky: Rotate simultaneously in the $x_1x_2$- and $x_3x_4$-planes. But now you have to think about how you change embeddings of the torus, regardless.
 
@TedShifrin as I said, I'm doing it in $\Bbb T^4$, where the matrices correspond to differomorphisms directly
they literally act on the generators of the fundamental group
 
@Ted I think Smale-Hirsch says you can do it in R^3 if you're allowed immersions
 
Not if the $\Bbb Z$-lattice isn't preserved, Leaky.
 
I did most of the calculation but I don't have paper
 
@TedShifrin hmm, right
 
6:47 PM
@MikeM: I wondered if it would be an eversion, then.
 
@ted: in the shifted system, the surface can be written as (x+y-z)^2-4xy = 2xyz
 
@MikeMiller is there any youtube link?
@TedShifrin you can evert T^2 in R^3
 
@Semiclassic: Yeah, the correct matrix has maximal rank. Eigenvalues are $2$, $2$, $-1$. So we can rotate to get $2x'^2+2y'^2 - z'^2 = 0$.
 
6:49 PM
@Leaky: Then that answers your question.
 
So that’s a conical singularity?
 
Well, ignoring the higher-order terms, it's a cone, sure. You can see your circular cross-section, but you can also see hyperbolas.
 
I think any torus can be everted in sufficiently high dimension
You'd need parallelizability
 
It looks like a familiar cone if we write $z'^2 = 2(x'^2+y'^2)$.
 
which torii automatically have
 
6:51 PM
Hi @Balarka.
 
Hi @Ted
 
Yeah, I started with the whole parallelizability to reduce the question (I think) to linear algebra at a point.
 
@TedShifrin torus eversion is $E=\begin{bmatrix}-1&0\\0&1\end{bmatrix}$ while $f=\begin{bmatrix}0&1\\1&0\end{bmatrix}$
they have the same eigenvalues
 
why are you calling the automorphism that switches the meridian/longitude an eversion?
 
We're changing orientation, Balarka.
I was trying to execute that with ambient isotopies by simultaneously changing orientation on the normal bundle.
 
6:56 PM
how do you get $f$ from $E$ though
change of basis sure, but what does this mean geometrically
 
$a<b,c<d$ whether $|a-c|+|b-d|<|a-d|+|b-c|$?
 
@Leaky: I'm not sure. I think that's what Balarka's asking.
I don't see why $E$ is the right matrix, though.
 
I am just confused. I don't see how a statement about immersiotopies can be reduced to linear algebra
when I say eversion, i am isotoping two embeddings by a family of immersions
 
Problem: Let $X = \prod_{n \in \Bbb{N}} X_i$. If each $X_i$ has a countable subset $A_i$, then so does $X$. Observations (sadly no proof yet): First, $\prod A_i$ doesn't work, since the countable product of countable sets is uncountable. Second, letting $A \subseteq X$ denote a dense subset, it's clear that writing $A$ as some cartesian $\prod D_i$ won't work, since $\prod \overline{D}_i = \overline{A} = \prod X_i$ and therefore the $D_i$ are dense; but this won't work because
the only dense sets we are given are the $A_i$, and their product is uncountable. At this point, I am not sure what to do. I was thinking maybe the canonical projections $\{\pi_k \}$ might help, since they are open maps and therefore $\overline{\pi^{-1}_k(D_k)} = \pi_k^{-1}(\overline{D}_k)$
 
Oh, well, I'm not 100% sure about that. I was trying to do a path in $SO(n)$ and then argue that we could look at the $2$-plane path of our original tangent frame (and normal frame) and induce embeddings of the tori by modding out those $2$-planes. I didn't think it through carefully, @Balarka. That's why we need you.
@Balarka: I was definitely using triviality of the tangent bundle to reduce to pointwise considerations.
@user193319: You need the Cantor diagonalization trick.
 
7:00 PM
@TedShifrin if you cut the torus open to form a square, and then glue it back to the emmersion state, you find that you inverted one loop and preserved the other
 
@LeakyNun You're cutting the torus. The whole point of doing a family of immersion is to not do that.
 
I just thought an eversion reversed orientation, regardless of how. I dunno.
 
@BalarkaSen I'm only tracking how the loops go when you evert the torus
 
It's easy to puncture the sphere and evert it and cap the puncture back up :P
 
I want to know which automorphism it corresponds to. I don't see how I can't cut it open
 
7:02 PM
What automorphism? The isotopy doesn't need to give any automorphism. The identity map is isotopic to the antipodal map through immersions S^2 --> R^3. The identity and the antipodal map are NOT isotopic as maps S^2 --> S^2
 
@TedShifrin Really? I need that to construct a countable dense subset of $\prod X_i$?
 
WE started with that point, @Balarka ...
Yup, @user193319.
 
All right. Thanks for the hint; let me think it over.
 
Do we know these are Baire spaces?
I don't think so.
 
yeah, I should stick to algebra
 
7:05 PM
ROFL
Your contribution on Stokes yesterday was very insightful and I do thank you for that! :)
 
hello, anyone knows how to generate bernoulli numbers algorithmically ?
i swear i know this but it's deep archived in my brain that i can't recall.
 
@Idle gf :P
 
@LeakyNun i don't understand.
 
@Ted Holonomic approximation theorem says exactly that the space of immersions $M^2 \to \Bbb R^3$ is weak homotopy equivalent to $\hom(TM, T\Bbb R^3)$ I believe.
 
7:10 PM
@Idle generating function
 
Given by sending an immersion to it's derivative
 
oh lol
dunno where my stupid mind pulled me.
 
@Idle the generating function is $\dfrac{t}{1-e^{-t}}$
use division to generate the numbers
polynomial time
 
@LeakyNun yes but does it give exact results?
 
@Idle of course
it's a generating function
 
7:11 PM
k i thought it's an asymptotic form
 
so that's the space of maps $M \to SO(3)$, I guess, by using the classifying map
 
@Idle do you know generating function?
 
i know recursive generating functions
 
So yeah for the torus this is obvious because the tangent bundle is trivial (hence the classifying map is nullhomotopic); I can homotope the derivatives of the two immersions
 
$\dfrac{t}{1-e^{-t}} = \dfrac{t}{1-1+t-\frac{1}{2}t^2+\frac16t^3-\cdots}=\dfrac1{1-\frac12t^2+\frac16t^‌​3+\cdots}$
 
7:13 PM
By producing those wild corrugations, you can "integrate" that to an isotopy of the immersions
 
grr i don't have latex.
 
so the torus does evert
 
@Idle if you have a sequence $a_n$, then $\displaystyle \sum_{n=0}^{\infty} a_n x^n$ is its generating function
that's sum(n=0, infty, a_n x^n)
if you know a closed form of that function, then you can generate the coefficients
in this case, you know how to generate coefficients of e^-t, so you can essentially do polynomial division, t over 1-e^-t
if you want to calculate 10 terms, you generate 10 terms of 1-e^-t and then do polynomial division
 
hold on, let me render this latex remotedly.
i can't see it obviously.
 
@Ted @Leaky Ah, what is nice about this is that my thing immediately says any embedding of $S^{n-1}$ everts in $\Bbb R^n$ if and only if $\pi_{n-1} SO(n)$ is zero. That forces $n = 1, 3, 7$
So the next guy that always everts is $S^6$
 
7:23 PM
@Idle Just write out the Taylor series around t=0 for the function is what it amounts to
 
@LeakyNun well, the exponential form is deployed using limited expansion. but you made a wrong step
 
where?
 
@KevinDriscoll yes taylor expansion, or limited expansion
in french (developments limités)
here =$\dfrac1{t-\frac12t^2+\frac16t^‌​3+\cdots}$
not big deal.
is there a python integrated function for bernoulli numbers ?
just to check my calculations.
 
wolfram alpha probably knows them
also the OEIS has them Im sure
 
ok, thanks.
 
7:34 PM
Finally hit the residue theorem
 
right
$\dfrac1{1-\frac12t+ \frac16 t^2+\cdots}$
 
@TedShifrin about showing that $SO(4)$ is path connected (regardless of the topology problem). I tried it like this: any matrix in $SO(4)$ is the product of an even number of hyperplane reflections (and the number is uniformly bounded by some integer $2n$) The map which sends a nonzero vector $v \in \Bbb R^4$ to the reflection through the orthogonal complement of $v$ is continuous (there's some formula in terms of the dot product. )
Thus the subset $R$ of $O(4)$ consisting of all hyperplane reflections is path-connected. Continuity of matrix multiplication gives that $SO(4)$ is path-connected as the image of the map $R^{2n} \to SO(4), (R_1, \dots, R_{2n}) \mapsto R_1 \cdot \dots \cdot R_{2n}$
 
the standard, one line proof is by Gram-Schmidt
by joining matrices by a path in GL^+(n), then pushing that path inside SO(n)
by orthogonalizing it pointwise
 
I can see how Gram-Schmidt gives a homotopy equivalence $GL_n(\Bbb R)^+ \simeq SO(n)$
 
yeah that's stronger
in fact it's a deformation retract
 
7:42 PM
right
 
the point is deformation retract of a path connected space is path connected
and GL^+(n) is "obviously" path connected
 
"obviously"
 
Dat obviousness tho
 
the proof is "juggling juggling linear homotopy juggling juggling"
 
What does the $+$ in $\text{GL}^+(n)$ indicate?
 
7:47 PM
+ve determinant
yeah but I think it's just elementary row decomposition
if A and B is related by a row operation, they can be joined by a path
 
but can you always do row composition without switching rows?
 
I mean any +ve det matrix can be decomposed into elementary matrices of the first and second kind
and those can be joined off to the identity matrix
(just a stupid linear homotopy)
so the product can be joined off to the identity matrix too
I think that works?
 
Even when we have negative eigenvalues?
 
Oh wait
Yeah that fails hard
 
@MatheinBoulomenos What do you mean?
 
7:54 PM
Plus my linear homotopy doesn't work
well rip me
let me know if someone can work this idea out. I need to leave now
 
If you weren't just working with the positive determinant, then this would be an obvious place to consider the Bruhat decomposition.
 
is SO(n) homeomorphic to S^n?
 
$SO(n)$ is not simply connected for $n>2$, so no
 
1
Q: Let $G$ be a group of order $p^nq$. Show that it's p-Sylow subgroup is isomorphic to the factor group $\frac{G}{G^{p^m}}$

ghthorpeSay I have a group $G$ of order $p^nq$. By the first Sylow theorem there is a subgroup of $G$, let's call it $S$, of order $p^n$. Furthermore let $f: G \to G, g \mapsto g^{p^m}$ and let $G^{p^m}$ be the image of $f$. I want to show that for every $m > n, S \cong \frac{G}{G^{p^m}}$. My guess is ...

im was trying to answer this q
 
@LeakyNun I think both of us are wrong, the fraction equals $\dfrac1{1-\frac12t+\frac16t^2+\cdots}$ , ( just a cursory notice )
 
8:06 PM
but i cant
so it got me really interested
 
30 mins ago, by Leaky Nun
$\dfrac1{1-\frac12t+ \frac16 t^2+\cdots}$
 
oh did't say that
i was implementing this right now in python, haven't seen your followup, sorry.
 
8:20 PM
@Mike Hi
I really wish there wasn't a conference this weekend.
 
@Idle it's the wrong formula
it should be $\dfrac{t}{e^t-1} = \dfrac{1}{1+\frac12t+\frac16t^2+\cdots}$
and this is the exponential generating function
 
@Mr.Xcoder hi
 
8:36 PM
@PVAL I'm in retrospect glad I didn't go.
 
What conference?
 
Looks really cool
 
My right shoulder feels like its the size of a minivan.
and I need to spend the next 2.5 days horizontal.
I'm almost supposed to "help out", and I don't know what I can physically even do.
 
What happened
 
8:44 PM
Idk it built up over a lot of time.
I didn't have some sort of accident or anything which caused it.
 
@LeakyNun you used fractions in their symbolic forms (fractions module)
i recall a solution like that in ppcg
 
9:04 PM
Hope you feel better @PVAL
 
eg. imdb.com
 
9:43 PM
0
Q: Let $G$ be a group of order $p^nq$. Show that it's p-Sylow subgroup is isomorphic to the factor group $\frac{G}{G^{p^m}}$

ghthorpeSay I have a group $G$ of order $p^nq$. By the first Sylow theorem there is a subgroup of $G$, let's call it $S$, of order $p^n$. Furthermore let $f: G \to G, g \mapsto g^{p^m}$ and let $G^{p^m}$ be the image of $f$. I want to show that for every $m > n, S \cong \frac{G}{G^{p^m}}$. My guess is ...

 
Holomorphic injections must have non-zero derivative, right? My heuristic reason for believing is that if you have non-zero derivative, then you write $f(z) = f(z_0) + (z-z_0)^ng(z)$ where $g(z_0) \ne 0$, but this $(z-z_0)^n$ business is not injective
 

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