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5:00 PM
Adám's new ad gave me idea for the mobile app. What do you think? codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/a/13987/30525
@BetaDecay Yeah, the design is… Ugh!
IBM employees had a sense of humour back in the 70s, eh? Hahahahah
@Adám Mm, I'm afraid that's the best I can do
@Adám you were warned :p
(although a bit...late if I may say so)
5:03 PM
That APL Autumn Codegolf banner looks great
tfw you read "just 1 byte"
@EriktheOutgolfer What challenge?
a comment
although that's not important
I can understand why they say so, it's just the feeling you initially get a little bit
Also, if a language had the commands: add the inputs, prime test the inputs and given a starting configuration, simulate GoL, does that make it a) Turing-complete and b) able to be used here?
5:06 PM
what are the "inputs"?
@EriktheOutgolfer just wait. In a couple of weeks they'll be like OMFG I SAVED A FRIGGIN BYTE YEAH
also a) implies b)
@EriktheOutgolfer CLA's for instance
@J.Salle depends on situation
@EriktheOutgolfer Well, in case a) was "no", then I wanted to include b) as a follow-up question
5:07 PM
and if the byte save is clever or trivial
@cairdcoinheringaahing just sayin'
the way you phrased it seems like you're asking if both are true
@EriktheOutgolfer fair enough
also @cairdcoinheringaahing I think gol is turing-complete so yes a) will most probably be true
@EriktheOutgolfer Thanks. Brb, making that language :P
good luck simulating gol
btw you'd need arbitrary bounds
Yeah I'd love to see a language with a documentation like: Function X: Simulates GoL
5:09 PM
@EriktheOutgolfer I've done it on a non-infinite board size, which is the best that can be currently done
@cairdcoinheringaahing making it theoretically infinite is what makes it tc
@J.Salle HQ9++ says that the command ++ makes it tc. Doesn't say how though :P
@cairdcoinheringaahing ~magic~
@J.Salle s/magic/Jelly Oh, wait. They're the same thing :P
5:12 PM
> ++: Increment the accumulator twice, and instantiate an object of a new sub class of the generic super class. Due to the best principles of object hiding, this object cannot be accessed in any way.
Really, HQ9++? That's more useless than + in the original
tl;dr: nothing
it's really just HQ9 but + doesn't cause syntax error
Does a page on esolangs.org about esolangs count as a quine?
Depends on whether you consider quines only for programming languages or for anything, I guess?
what if "Text" was considered a programming language
it's only capable of producing quines
and it's output only, finite output
@EriktheOutgolfer That's a subset of Charcoal
5:16 PM
Willing to bet that someone would manage to use it to solve a challenge.
@cairdcoinheringaahing but some chars do different things in charcoal
it's neither a subset nor a superset imo
@EriktheOutgolfer it's not turing complete so i don't think it could compete on ppcg
@EriktheOutgolfer Yeah, but all ascii characters are outputted in charcoal, so literal quines are very easy, just like in "Text"
@Poke Languages don't have to be tc, just be able to add numbers and perform a prime test
on top of that I don't think that rule is effective anymore
(although some still do consider it to be)
@EriktheOutgolfer Some people have done that.
IMO, such answers are only worthy of downvotes.
5:19 PM
@Poke You don't need to be a language to compete
@cairdcoinheringaahing k well "Text" can't take input so this still doesn't work
@DJMcMayhem Not unless the solution is genuinely clever. But 99% of the time, downvote into oblivion
@FunkyComputerMan Most challenges ask for programs or functions. How do you answer without a language
It could take input if we build an interpreter I guess?
@cairdcoinheringaahing If you can show me an answer written in "text" that is actually genuinely clever, I'll eat my hat.
5:22 PM
@Poke Check his latest challenge :P
@cairdcoinheringaahing That would be why I said "most"
@DJMcMayhem Sorry, let me change that to "99.9999999...% of the time, downvote into oblivion" :P
well your "language" is the set of axioms
@cairdcoinheringaahing why not just 100%
@EriktheOutgolfer Just in case someone disproves me. Preparing for the corner cases :P
5:23 PM
that's nice
@Adám that's very nice
partial ninja
well it looks like the userscript
Q: Do submissions have to be answered with a programming language?

Nathan MerrillWe've got various answers strewn across meta that tell different stories: On the standard loopholes, we disallow answers that aren't programming languages. This appears to be the most definitive answer of the lot. It has a vote count of 16/-8. However, on a question that asks "Should answers ...

@FunkyComputerMan thanks I was looking for it
@EriktheOutgolfer That's because the PPCG app will look like the userscript.
5:24 PM
@Adám Mm that's nice. I'll add it now
@Adám umm...citation please? how can you be sure? :p
@cairdcoinheringaahing mathematically 99.9999999... = 100
@J.Salle I challenge you to prove this. :P
@EriktheOutgolfer special features as found in the graduation design userscript I read that as meaning the design too. Even if not, the app has a relationship to the userscript, and will look good with it turned on.
@ThomasWard if you transform it into a fraction you get 999-99/9 = 900/9 = 100
5:27 PM
@ThomasWard It's easy if you acknowledge that the notation ... means the previous digit or sequence of digits repeated an infinite number of times
@J.Salle 99.9 recurring != 100
Well (999-99)/9*
@cairdcoinheringaahing That is completely false.
$99.\overline9=100$ wat
@DJMcMayhem that's how I learned it hahah
5:29 PM
so is $0.\overline3=0.4$ true in the same sense as $99.\overline9=100$???
@ThomasWard x=99.9999..., 10x = 999.9999...., 10x = 900 + x, 9x = 900 => x = 100
ಠ_ಠ Why does C need a separate void to interpret Deadfish?
@EriktheOutgolfer No because 0.3¯¯¯ == 1/3 and 1/3 < 0.4
I have no idea how to draw that bar
i think i started hell...
@DJMcMayhem only in latex afaik
5:30 PM
@ThomasWard Hell is going into the Maths chatroom and saying the same thing :P
@J.Salle Mike Mingard made it after I wrote him: Maybe something like: "OPTIMA SYSTEM'S / CODEGOLF / ○ AN APL TOURNAMENT ○ / ○ WITH REAL LIFE PRICES ○" You could even just use your grass background with your existing logo, and just add two lines of text in the subtitle font.
also honestly how do you prove $99.\overline9=100$?
@cairdcoinheringaahing perhaps you should :P
@EriktheOutgolfer 0.9999... equals 9(1/10)^1 + 9(1/10)^2 + 9(1/10)^3 ... 9(1/10)^N as N approaches infinity. The limit of that sum is 1.
@ThomasWard I would, but you ninja'd me :P
Also, I hate OO based languages. C# needs a class to interpret a language with 4 commands
5:33 PM
@DJMcMayhem you could also argue that $0.\overline01=0$ so $99.\overline9=100-0.\overline01=100-0=100$...?
@cairdcoinheringaahing :P
Also, a more intuitive rather than algebraic proof is that if 0.999... < 1, then there exists an n such that 0.999... + n == 1. What is that n? Because it's going to be 0.000...1, but that 1 will only happen after an infinite number of 0's. You can't have something after an infinite sequence.
@EriktheOutgolfer Ha, ninja'd sort of
@ThomasWard Although... now you have to deal with them rather than me, so thanks :P
@cairdcoinheringaahing unless my internet dies
which is 100% likely
@ThomasWard RIP Lasereyes' internet.
5:34 PM
no, RIP Penn State Library internet connection due to maintenance
@DJMcMayhem hmm...it's just kinda unbelievable how $99.\overline9=100$ actually holds true isn't it
@cairdcoinheringaahing i think they're supernovas
not lasers
It's because your intuition of numbers breaks down once you start dealing with infinity.
@EriktheOutgolfer Calculus is ~magic~ I guess?
TBH, it's really the same thing as 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8... == 1
5:36 PM
@Poke Sacrilegious! They are widely known to be universe-destroying lasers!
Because as long as you actually do that and actually add them together, you'll never technically reach 1, but if you do it to infinity, the limit is 1, so for all intents and purposes, the infinite sum is 1.
And in binary, that's like saying 0.1111111 == 1, which is pretty equivalent to 0.99999 == 1 in decimal
@cairdcoinheringaahing so tempted to unstar...
@EriktheOutgolfer Have you studied any calculus?
Given that you have to add some number, x to 0.9999..., in order to make 1, 0.999... cannot equal 1
@DJMcMayhem Freedom of speech :P
@cairdcoinheringaahing So what is the value of x?
5 mins ago, by DJMcMayhem
Also, a more intuitive rather than algebraic proof is that if 0.999... < 1, then there exists an n such that 0.999... + n == 1. What is that n? Because it's going to be 0.000...1, but that 1 will only happen after an infinite number of 0's. You can't have something after an infinite sequence.
5:39 PM
@DJMcMayhem well, kinda although not that much yet I have school requirements and stuff and no time :(
@DJMcMayhem 0.000...1
I actually can't stand Calculus
But I like number theory so there's that
@cairdcoinheringaahing That value is by definition infinitely small.
The 1 does not exist
@DJMcMayhem But it is still a value. Ergo, there is a value between 0.999... and 1
@DJMcMayhem this should be argued over in the math room IMO xD
5:40 PM
@cairdcoinheringaahing No, it's not. Because if it comes after an infinite number of 0's, that implies that the infinite number of 0's ends. Otherwise nothing can come after it.
@DJMcMayhem 1E-∞
lim x->+inf 100-1/10**x = 100. It's wrong to say that 99.999... = 100, because it doesn't. You need to talk about it in the realm of limits for it to make any sense.
@DJMcMayhem ^^ What Adam said. Also, this is starting to get into discussions regarding infinity, which tend to break my brain :P
99.999... is infinitely close to 100. The difference is infinitesimal. But infinitesimal is not zero. Welcome to calculus :)
@Mego and that's why I can't stand calculus hahahahahahah
5:43 PM
Hey, I just realised that a dog and a cat are "fighting" over mathematics :P
@cairdcoinheringaahing And then the penguin with a minor in mathematics steps in to clear it up
@Mego Yep. That's penguins, the sensible ones :DDD
@cairdcoinheringaahing We're cool-headed
5:44 PM
Someone should code a bot that would randomly quote a comment from the APL/360 implementation. (Looking at you, @Adám)
@Mego at least penguins haven't formed any "alliance" with either dogs or cats afaik...yet
@EriktheOutgolfer The penguin-cat alliance is strong.
@Mego you mean the penguin-cat-deer alliance or something else??? if the latter, then I really have to start questioning my existence o_o
5:45 PM
That last one is gold
@Adám For some reason, I read that as airbending
@EriktheOutgolfer No, the penguin-cat alliance. I have a cat in my lap.
5:46 PM
...lap? are you sure you're really a penguin?
@Adám How can an assembly error be harmless?
Speaking of Avatar, I am so close to finally finishing season 3. (No spoilers plz)
It's so good
Does it just give the same result?
@Adám What are you reading these from?
5:49 PM
@DJMcMayhem APL\360 source code.
@DJMcMayhem Avatar is great. The last season is the best one IMO
I agree. The first half of season 1 was kinda meh, but then once they got to the north pole, everything got way better.
Although it is a little weird seeing both Aang and Zuko with hair xP
@DJMcMayhem How have you managed to miss out on A:tlA for so long?
Hahahah yeah I find the first season kinda slow. Season 2 picks up the pace very nicely though.
5:52 PM
@DJMcMayhem The writers found their groove towards the end of Season 1. Most of it was just introducing characters and showing off flaws for future character development.
@Mego idk. I never watched it growing up, so recently I've been watching it with my girlfriend because it's her favorite show of all time.
@Mego Character development is definitely the shows strongest point
@Adám At this point, your random source code quotes are becoming a disruption to other conversations
@Mego OK, I'll stop.
5:53 PM
@DJMcMayhem Agreed.
@Mego Disagreed.
@DJMcMayhem Korra (the show and the character) also has great character development
I should make a collection of "The best of APL\360 source code"
@DJMcMayhem I did the same. I only watched half of season 1 when it aired, which my then-girlfriend-now-wife promptly fixed when she found out.
@J.Salle Mego owns this room.
@Adám That sounds weird but is technically correct based off of the title...
5:56 PM
@Mego XD That's really funny.
TBH, I could put minecraft in the same category lol
I introduced my wife to Minecraft when we started dating. It still hasn't released its grip on her.
The Sims has that same grip on my gf
Also those goddamned idle games
@Mego Traitor. It seems I now have two RO's against me, not a good position :P
My wife has a terrible habit of downloading a ton of shovelware mobile "games" on her phone. She wonders why the battery dies so quickly.
@Mego I got my wife hooked on Civilization IV Colonization.
6:00 PM
@cairdcoinheringaahing My alliegiance has always been with calculus
@Adám My wife got me hooked on Civilization V
@Mego How long have you been married?
@cairdcoinheringaahing not that cat
@Mego my gf as well
@DJMcMayhem Just over a year
6:01 PM
@Mego Congrats.
Playing that game on the hardest difficulty will probably give me an aneurism some day
It's infuriating
@Adám THanks
@Mego that's a nice milestone
Overwatch is another game my gf got me hooked on, but it's a little hard for me to play cause I'm a) not good, and b) waaaay too competitive. So I mostly stick to bots
6:03 PM
means you haven't broken up for a whole year or more, needs significant "bonding" to do that imo
Presumably longer than that (since I assume they dated for a while too)
@J.Salle Somehow I managed to get the Flawless Strategy achievement last year, but I don't remember how
@DJMcMayhem Yep, 3 years of dating prior
wow 3 years?
If a husband subjects himself to lots of acceleration, will his wife then have been married to him longer than he to her?
6:04 PM
@Mego I'd be dead before I got that
Sounds like the plot of a weird sci-fi romance drama
3 years = you didn't pick your wife randomly at the very least
@Adám No. It's relative velocity that matters, not acceleration. So if you blast a family member out of a cannon, it works.
@Adám does that acceleration speed the husband up to ~86% of the speed of light?
6:05 PM
@Adám acceleration can be misleading, and one-way love isn't true love
Ooh, physics jokes? My turn!
more like metaphorical
inb4 someone links xkcd.com/514 (NSFW-ish?)
If you cool yourself to -273 degrees Celsius, will you be OK?
@Scrooble I thought of an answer and then... mind: blown.
6:07 PM
@DJMcMayhem well, a little bit, although it shows the bad consequences of one-way love
@Mego true love: $\upsilon_{husband}=\upsilon_{wife}$
and $\upsilon>0$
@Scrooble No, you're .15 degrees Celsius off.
@Scrooble In fact, you're at 0.15K.
@Mego also dead.
Ninjapenguins, I knew it.
6:09 PM
The penguin would know all about supercooled temperatures
@DJMcMayhem That's because penguins are... puts on sunglasses Super cool...
@J.Salle well, for the time being nobody has ever managed to freeze somebody to the far future :p
@Mego so cool that they become super conductive?
@EriktheOutgolfer Not true. I saw a documentary series about a pizza delivery guy who got cryogenically frozen.
@EriktheOutgolfer fair enough
6:11 PM
@Mego [citation-needed]
@Mego to 0K?
@EriktheOutgolfer imdb.com/title/tt0149460
Oh wait
@Mego goddamnit I knew that
I feel lonely now. Everyone here has a significant other :P
6:12 PM
@Mego is that proven true?
@EriktheOutgolfer I bet it's even peer-reviewed
gtg now bye
@J.Salle Yep, the other guys in the bathroom loved it
Bye o/
6:12 PM
@cairdcoinheringaahing Everybody save me :(
@Scrooble Loners unite!
@DJMcMayhem 5/10 not vector graphics
@Mego Change your avatar to that
CMC: Make an ASCII penguin in sunglasses.
:D Pavel shows up and the first thing he sees is a sunglasses-wearing version of Mego :P
6:14 PM
@Mego Where is the SVG version of your avatar? I just went off of gravatar.com/avatar/…
@DJMcMayhem Let me find it again...
@J.Salle VTC unclear
@DJMcMayhem I wish I could star more than once.
6:14 PM
Also, does GIMP support SVG?
@J.Salle c8^OY
@Pavel is it bad that I have no idea what is a VTC?
@J.Salle Vote To Close
@Adám definitely a winner.
@AlexKChen I don't think it is really makes sense to wrap things in classes as it is now.
6:15 PM
@cairdcoinheringaahing should've figured that.
Q: What are the PPCG specific abbreviations and terms?

AdámNewcomers to PPCG are often compelled to ask what many of our abbreviations and terms mean. Let us list them here so this information always will be easily available.

@Adám Great, thanks
@DJMcMayhem Don't know. Inkscape does.
@Adám I think that having your website be included on a list of abbreviations for an entire site, clearly shows that you are doing something right. (TIO to avoid confusion)
@cairdcoinheringaahing Uh, right, but you should tell Dennis that, not me.
6:18 PM
@Dennis ^^
@Adám Happy? :P
@cairdcoinheringaahing Sure.
So, how long should I wait to post my challenge from the sandbox to the main board?
@J.Salle I usually wait a week.
@Adám Yeah, I thought a week would suffice. Just asking 'cause I've never done that hahah
Maybe we could post a special question asking for a website to try out all programming languages. Then Dennis could answer "TIO" and we could all upvote that post to show our appreciation.
6:22 PM
@Adám Unfortunately, that would probably count as voting fraud, but you could just give him a bounty when TIO reaches a landmark (400 languages for instance)
@cairdcoinheringaahing Why would that be voting fraud?
Others could answer with other sites too, and get upvotes for that.
@J.Salle until you got seme feedback
@Adám Maybe not voting fraud, but if it were just to upvote Dennis because of TIO, then it wouldn't really be allowed. I don't think it actually violates any rules, just is frowned on
@flawr I've got some already, I just asked 'cause I didn't see anything on the sandbox post suggesting a time span
@cairdcoinheringaahing the question is: is there any other site to try all those sweet golfing languages in one place?
@Adám It would be a dupe of the meta question
6:26 PM
@Mego Oh, is there one?
Q: Where to find an online testing environment for specific programming languages?

dmckeeHere is my scenario. I pose a programming puzzle. It might be golf, or might be something else, but I don't specify the language. Some posts a answer that looks really good, but I don't have a working environment to test it. ??? Profit! Let us compile a list of free execution environments rea...

@J.Salle Yeah, EsostericIDE is one, repl.it is another. But TIO is undoubtedly the best
@J.Salle well if you think the flaws are ironed out you can post it, no one is holding you back. Some challenges can be sitting in the sandbox forever while others have some obvious flaws that can be fixed within minutes.
@cairdcoinheringaahing I see.
and you can always ask for feedback here
6:27 PM
@flawr yeah, like the 90 upvoted KoTh that's been there since 2014. I wonder when that'll be posted...
@flawr Yeah, I'll just wait a couple more days so people have a chance to actually read it
@J.Salle I'm just annoyed that it's not an easy Jelly program that I can FGITW it with :(
@cairdcoinheringaahing Hah! It's probably a walk in the park with any language with good string subs builtins, I guess.
@J.Salle Be prepared for a SOGL answer in the first 10 minutes of posting then
Well, it's not meant to be an extremely difficult challenge. I just thought of it when I passed a building on my way to work the other day, it had a sign written like that.
Well not a sign per se, but a bunch of A4 sheets taped to the windows making a sentence. Some words were too large to fit the windows so I guess they improvised
6:33 PM
That is the problem with challenges though. They can be extremely easy to think of, but close to impossible to solve glares at Tetris GoL
@cairdcoinheringaahing Nope. SOGLs n adds trailing characters by cycling previous ones. And then there'd be the problem that trailing spaces of the nified strings are ignored when adding the words together
Man, it took forever for my avatar to change
@cairdcoinheringaahing Puh-lease! Tetris GoL was solved so easily not
@Mego CIA penguin!
@J.Salle Well, we knew how to solve it. Actually building the pieces and putting them together was the hard part. Really hard challenges are the ones where you sit there and stare at them, not knowing how to begin.
@Mego Hell yeah! You changed it! We officially have the coolest RO of all rooms :P
Actually, I took a double take when you said "we", because you no longer look like Mego at the first glance :P
6:40 PM
I don't know how long I'll keep it like this, because I prefer the transparent background. I suppose it would be easy to add transparency but meh.
@Mego Weird... It should have had transparency since the original one did, and I didn't bother to change it
Just a sec
@Mego If (when) you do change it back, please add the current one to your profile :P
I can write detailedly the motivation behind, or I can completely skip it and write down with results... which should I choose
@DJMcMayhem I think the upload to my profile picture messed up the transparency
I've already written half a page worth of background
6:41 PM
@LeakyNun For what?
@cairdcoinheringaahing for my next challenge
@Mego Ah, yes. You uploaded it to imgur rather than using gravatar like your last one.
The transparency probably would've worked if I had uploaded it to Gravatar instead of SE
The one I have sitting on my desktop is transparent
@LeakyNun Write a brief motivation paragraph
6:41 PM
Ninja'd ;P
@cairdcoinheringaahing it can't be brief
There, it should work now, after it refreshes
@LeakyNun Then don't have a motivation part. That isn't really part of the challenge, and shouldn't take up a lot of space
Weird, they have the same URL, but the one in your profile has ?s=328&g=1 appended
I think it's because I uploaded it by URL instead of by image data
6:47 PM
OK, now I just need one more codegolf challenge for the APL tournament. Anyone have a good idea for something really array oriented?
@Adám What do you have so far?
@Adám I just posted an array oriented challenge yesterday. No APL answers yet
Feel free to use any of my challenges (with attribution, of course)
Technically today actually (silly UTC)
I'm sorry, I take it back
UTC isn't stupid.
@Mego Generate a bar chart with ten bars. Model disease spread. Chess knight moves. See if there are only two of each unique. GoL. Group elements by value. Find which interval things fall into. Isomorph subarray.
6:51 PM
hi all
@Adám GETS IT'S? Apostrophitis has reached APL\360?
@J.Salle Mostly.
@J.Salle 1 hour after IIRC
@Neil Not the only typo I've seen.
6:52 PM
20:00 GMT = 19:00 UTC (I think)
@Adám Ooh, modeling disease spread is one of my favorite problems. I should write a challenge about that :P
@J.Salle Depends on DST/BST/whatever iirc
@Neil It's been an issue since the 70s apparently
@Adám Wait, GoL? How long is a vanilla Life in APL?
Also, how do you make images smaller in posts?
@cairdcoinheringaahing Use HTML instead of Markdown
6:54 PM
I never learned UTC. The standard time here is GMT-2/3/4/5 depending on where on the country you are, so I think they never bothered teaching other time zones in school.
@cairdcoinheringaahing The classic one is 34.
@Adám Try running Tetris on it :P
@Mego I don't know HTML, what tag is used for images? waits for all the ninja's
@cairdcoinheringaahing img
@cairdcoinheringaahing <img src="whatever.png" width="x" height="y">
6:55 PM
@Mego Please use ... /> instead of ... >
or ...></img> but I don't know why would anyone do that
@cairdcoinheringaahing So far I've been able to golf that by over 40%
@flawr That's only necessary for XHTML, and so it adds no benefit in HTML
@J.Salle I think that's invalid HTML.
@Mego Why hasn't your profile updated yet?
6:57 PM
@DJMcMayhem Caching
@Adám is it? I don't think I've ever used it that way, I just assumed it would work
@Adám It's valid, but unnecessary for HTML.
@J.Salle Of course it will. The browsers swallow pretty much anything. They'll be happy with <img src=whatever.png width=x height=y too!
@Adám html is weird hahahahah
@J.Salle For most intents and purposes, yes. Note that UK is currently on BST before it goes back to UTC ~a month from now
6:58 PM
Actually I misspoke earlier - ... /> isn't valid XHTML. It does absolutely nothing in HTML except make it ever so slightly clearer. But omitting the slash is golfier.
@J.Salle No, the browsers are.
@Adám that too
At least we don't have to deal with IE7 compat anymore :P
@Neil yeah, we'll enter DST in ~a month from now here
@Mego: it's needed for embedded SVG and MathML

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