Vedanta and Philosophy

Seeker

4:00 PM

@TheDestroyer Don't you think we shouldn't accept any Adharma of Gods as Leela.

Tezz

@Seeker hmm..😀😀That's what I think...

@TheDestroyer Yes, i observe that too...

@Seeker Adharma of Gods?..
Any examples?...

Seeker

@TheDestroyer I think it happens when one starts preaching before complete realization. @

@Tezz I meant Lord Vishnu cheated his own devotee & started loving with here & broke her Pati Vrat.

@TheDestroyer was saying it was leela

😓😓😢

Her*

Living*

SwiftPushkar

@KeshavSrinivasan- haha missed that answer of yours before :)

Tezz

@Seeker Parvati tells that Jalandhara should face his own Karma (ie. His own Karma should boomerang him) . So, Lord Vishnu does the same...

Rakesh Joshi

@TheDestroyer "If any Guru gets populairity, automatically quality in content they preach is reduced. This is what i observed. . ""

i hope this is not applicable to Sri Chaganti garu

Seeker

4:04 PM

@Tezz I guess perfection in duality is impossible. 😐😯

Rakesh Joshi

@TheDestroyer i had posted in chat about swami vivekananda

Tezz

@Seeker Yeah... perfection in duality is impossible..That's why Brihadaranyaka Upanishad states:

VII-xxiv-1: ‘In which one sees nothing else, hears nothing else, understands nothing else, that is infinite. But that in which one sees something else, hears something else, understands something else, is the finite. That which is infinite, is alone immortal, and that which is finite, is mortal’. ‘Revered sir, in what is that infinite established ?’ ‘On its own greatness or not even on its own greatness’.

Seeker

👏👏great.

Tezz

@Seeker btw I have found answer about your Lord Shiva's Trishula question... I think I'll answer it tomorrow .. (I'm feeling lazy to type Sanskrit verses today😀😀)...

Seeker

😀😀😀Thanks. Would be waiting. What about Shivansh? Answer possible?

Tezz

4:13 PM

@Seeker In shortcut... Kashi is preserved in kalpantaka pralaya... again absorbed in Mahapralaya.. and again created by Shiva-Shakti in next universe... and nothing even nane form and space remains after Mahapralaya... so Trishula also gets absorbed... even the form of Shiva is absorbed...

Seeker

@Tezz oh. Got it. 👏👏

Rakesh Joshi

means whole earth is destroyed and kashi is isolated :)

Tezz

@Seeker I did research in Jalandhara... and it is justified... his immediate cause of birth was Insult of Shiva by Indra... also he punished Indra as he took property of sea (that Karma caused him to become son of Sea)... and also injustice by Gods while giving Amrita to Daityas...

Rakesh Joshi

@KeshavSrinivasan dont you think kashi death and liberation has deeper meaning and so as bathing in ganges.

Tezz

@RakeshJoshi In the Kalpantaka Pralaya... only upto heaven are destroyed... rest Lokas above heaven like Jnana Loka, Mahar loka etc... are preserved... in the same way Kashi is also preserved... I think Swayambhu idol of Gods may also be preserved for some Kalpas...

Rakesh Joshi

4:18 PM

what about maha pralaya :)

Seeker

@Tezz Yes. I too thought the same, he was assimilated into Shiva(moksha) after his so called death which clearly shows he did what was destined otherwise he would have been in Karmic debt

Tezz

@Seeker Yeah.. Jalandhar Merges on Rudra and Vrinda merges on Parvati...

Seeker

@Tezz Sir, please include Vrinda merging in Parvati as well in your answer. Didn't know that.

The Destroyer

@RakeshJoshi Chaganti is only Popular in telugu states but not across India or World.

Rakesh Joshi

still popularity is there na ..

Seeker

4:20 PM

@RakeshJoshi Sir, I think which is gross manifests into subtle and vice versa. It has both subtle meaning as well as real happening.

Tezz

@Seeker also the Jalandhara event sows seeds on happening of Ramayana... as Vrinda curses Lord Vishnu that 'You will suffer loss of wife and seperation from her.... "

@Seeker haha... you do not need to call me 'Sir'...

Rakesh Joshi

if at all simply dying in kashi would give mukti then it would be unfair to non kashi residents.

further if bathing in ganges phyically removes all sins then any tom dick and harry would get rid of sins

there are subtle inner meanings ...

Tezz

@Seeker Yeah.. Shiva Purana mentions Vrinda merging on Parvati...

Seeker

@Tezz means all were divine happenings, predestined. 😐 Not even Prarabdha Karma.

The Destroyer

@RakeshJoshi Who said anyone can get Moksha by simply dying at Kashi?

@RakeshJoshi There are rules again in that.

Rakesh Joshi

4:23 PM

then what is the process ? @TheDestroyer at kashi

Tezz

@Seeker Yes, .. the beauty of stories is stories are interconnected with each other...

Seeker

@RakeshJoshi May be bathing means "feeling every drop of water of ganges". Only a Sadhak can have such bath in actual, not Tom dick and Harry. 😯

Rakesh Joshi

theere is inner esoteric significance .. the ganges is not physical nor the kashi is physical place .

The Destroyer

@RakeshJoshi Shiva says specific rules to Parvati. He says one is elible for Moksha but need not be immediate. I think moreover, all these things of visiting Kashi and becoming eligible is in accordance with Sanchita and Prarabda Karma.

@RakeshJoshi Both Physical and Subtle.

Tezz

@TheDestroyer I think Mahabharata tells anyone who gives up his Prana in Avimukta kshetra gets liberation... but I think who deserve only can do that...

Rakesh Joshi

4:25 PM

@TheDestroyer not physical .

please explain the whole process so that i can put forward my points .

everyone is going to get moksha sooner or later.

The Destroyer

@RakeshJoshi I don't remember now. See Matsya Purana Kasi Kshetra mahatmya.

Rakesh Joshi

but i remember the esoteric meanings revealed by higher masters in their light to kasi and ganges

Seeker

In one incident, Lord Shiva asked Parvati to take a bath. She returned after following words, but lord Shiva repeatedly was asking her to bath. She couldn't knew, then she was told "real bathing is when you feel every droplet of water" , in that case if a Sadhak develops such concentration to bath actually & bath in Ganges ,he gets Moksha

Rakesh Joshi

just dyring in manikarnika does not ensure moksha. but it has bvecome custom now

Seeker

Same applies for visiting Kashi

Actually Visiting Kashi

Rakesh Joshi

4:28 PM

the same meaning also applies to baptism (internal) of the christians .. they too are stuck up in physical dip in water during external baptism

The Destroyer

@Tezz Yes. Not everyone will get that chance. It inturn depends on Prarabda and Sanchita Karmas and many previous births virtues. Like how, Asura Mahabali only got 1 hr and 12 minutes to rule Devaloka for accidental worship to Shiva. It obviously depends on Sincere Devotion and other factors. Law of Karma is really complex and logical.

Tezz

@Seeker but I think the story of Andhaka differs greatly in Kalpas to kalpa... for eg. Shiva Purana mentions him as having birth from his sweat... .... Kurma Purana mentions him as actual son on Hiranyakshya... Harivamsha states Andhaka is son of Kashyapa from Diti etc...

@TheDestroyer yeah.. law of Karma is complex...

Rakesh Joshi

@Seeker now physical banares and kashi , ujjain etc is a big place for criminals also.

The Destroyer

6

Q: What is the Yogic meaning of getting liberation by reaching Varanasi?

Varanasi which is also known by the name Kashi is one of the the most sacred place. It is also known as Avimukta which means which is never forsaken by Shiva. अविमुक्तं स्वयं लिङ्गं स्थापितं परमात्मना। न कदाचित्त्वया त्याज्यमिदं क्षेत्रं ममांशकम्॥ २१॥ Lord Shiva, the supreme soul, there...

@RakeshJoshi Yes. There's esoteric meaning too.

Seeker

@Tezz Poor Andhak, he must have to take birth in every Kalpa. 😐

Tezz

4:31 PM

@Seeker I think it is different Jeevas who are becoming Andhaka... and finally either they are destroyed by Shiva or become Gana of Shiva (like Bhringi)...

The Destroyer

@RakeshJoshi who said that? Ramakrsna Paramahasma saw Shiva liberating Jivas in Manikarnika Ghat.

Seeker

And one more thing sir @RakeshJoshi @TheDestroyer @Tezz we don't know what is actual Kashi , means what is real breadth & width of Kashi. If we start calling whole U.P as Kashi, it won't work. Original Kashi must be limited within the prsent so called Kashi.

The Destroyer

@Seeker city of five Koshas in diameter.

Chinmaya B

@Pandya I live in MP

Tezz

@Seeker Andhaka literally means who is blind.... and it has symbolic meaning too... it also means Lord Shiva is the destroyer of blindness within us...

Seeker

4:32 PM

@Tezz yes. Right.

Rakesh Joshi

@TheDestroyer if there is esoteric meaning then there cannot be both esoteric and physical

for example one is able to raise kundalini is only eligible for moksha as per the esoteric meaning

but not all visiting kashi are having kundalini risen so technically they cannot get moksa

on the other hand if soneone is awakened then he does not need to visit physical kashi as his chakras and jnana is already activated.

Seeker

@TheDestroyer around Jyotirlinga?

The Destroyer

@RakeshJoshi Lol. There are many paths of Moksha. It need not be Kundalini always. And Shiva Shakti union is another way of explaning Kundalini.

@Seeker Yes.

Rakesh Joshi

whatever it may be bot if there is inner way then there is no need to visit physical kashi
it will make no sense

Tezz

@Seeker In the Kashi also Avimukta Kshetra is the most imp. one which actually bestows salvation...

Rakesh Joshi

4:34 PM

if someone has unleashed the real kashi in his inner being what is the need to go to physical kashi ?

@Tezz has made right point about kashi meing the astral place perceived between the eye brows

Seeker

Yes. Got it @Tezz

Rakesh Joshi

by whatsoever method it is seen

The Destroyer

@RakeshJoshi why do you think it has no physical thing? I think that is your opinion. It may not make sense for you. Man is Microcosm. All Lokas are present in him as chakras and there are real Lokas too. Both ways.

@RakeshJoshi Skanda Purana clearly mentions this correlation.

Rakesh Joshi

ok if im able to witness kashi in inner being still why would i need to go to physical kashi for moksha ? how does it makes sense

Tezz

@TheDestroyer can you give me that chapter of Skandha Purana... ?..

Rakesh Joshi

4:37 PM

then please explain me the correlation . because there are many things said as metaphors

The Destroyer

@RakeshJoshi Yes. If you are able to see inner Kashi (light) in you, you need not go to Physical kashi.

Rakesh Joshi

so that is what i m seeing .
if you go kashi and dont have inner light then it will make no sense

and if you are able to see inner light in yourself in chennai then also going to physical kashi makes no sense cos already your liberated

अत्र हि जन्तोः प्राणेषूत्क्रममाणेषु रुद्रस्तारकं ब्रह्म व्याचष्टे येनासावमृती भूत्वा मोक्षी भवति तस्मादविमुक्तमेव निषेवेत अविमुक्तं न विमुञ्चेदेवमेवैतद्याज्ञवल्क्यः ॥ १॥

This is the spot where, when the vital airs depart from the living person, Rudra imparts the Taraka Brahman to him by which, becoming immortal, he attains liberation (final beatitude). Hence one shall resort to the Avimukta; shall not desert the Avimukta. (Brihaspati approved of the statement saying): ‘So it is, Yajnavalkya’, verily it is so, O, revered one ! ‘It is so Yajnavalkya’.

people have misunderstood it as physical so there is much rush for burning at manikarnika

The Destroyer

@RakeshJoshi If you don't believe in Puranas, don't believe. Many Hindus in india don't have time like you to find inner Kashi. They just go to Physical Kashi. Neither you nor me know what happens next to them. Let Shiva decide.

Rakesh Joshi

i m quoting verses which says inner kashi and does not speak of physical kashi still you are not accepting

this quote is from your jabala upanishad only of vedanta.. is it not superior to puranas sir ?

The Destroyer

@Tezz this answer has link of Skanda Purana.

6

A: What is the reason behind lokas in Hinduism?

Sri Swami Sivananda explains correlation between Lokas and Chakras in his book Kundalini Yoga and in this page. He says Lokas correspond to Chakras of human body. Man is a microcosm (Kshudra Brahmanda). Whatever exists in the outer universe exists in him. All the Tattvas and worlds are with...

Rakesh Joshi

4:44 PM

refute this verse from other vedic or upanishadic reference i will readily accept

The Destroyer

@RakeshJoshi Tell me context of both verses puranas and Upanishads. What is context of Upanishad verse? What is the context of Shiva Purana? Who said those verses?

Rakesh Joshi

further i can quote many higher souls including ramakrishna who DID not die in kashi but yet are considred to obtain merging with infinite

upanishadic verse is talking of inner kashi .. but if outer kashi is also important then it would talk of both not only inner.

The Destroyer

@RakeshJoshi I asked Context. Please tell me context. What are previous verses? And who are conversing? What is their state of enlightenment?

What they are discussing?

Rakesh Joshi

yajnavalkaya

Sree Charan

@KeshavSrinivasan What is the meaning of Satagopuram? Why is Satari called Satagopuram?[As in your answer]

Tezz

4:47 PM

@TheDestroyer Oh ok... Thank you... !

Rakesh Joshi

@TheDestroyer ok you say both contexts as per you.

my point is clear that if both inner and physical kashi is important then yajnavalkaya would have included in his words right ?

The Destroyer

@RakeshJoshi I haven't read Upanishads. So, can't say exact context.

Rakesh Joshi

i saw comment from tezz

9

A: What is the Yogic meaning of getting liberation by reaching Varanasi?

The term "Reaching the Varanasi" itself has a deep yogic significance. It is described in Vedas itself. Actually the term Varanasi means "beyond nose". Naasi = Nose in Sanskrit and it is implying to reach the area which is beyond nose (ie. Middle of the eyebrow) ie. Ajna Chakra. Hence Vedas State...

The Destroyer

@RakeshJoshi But Shiva Purana statement is very general. It doesn't mention specific details.

Rakesh Joshi

so how can we accept skanda purana where upanishad makes no mention of varanasi

Seeker

4:50 PM

But one can die there only by grace.

Rakesh Joshi

nothing like that many criminals are also dying there ..

Seeker

😂😂😂

Right

Rakesh Joshi

further such stories are there related to arunachala and many other pilgrim places

The Destroyer

@RakeshJoshi jaya and Vijaya did many bad things in their births but finally went to Vishnu's abode.

Rakesh Joshi

most famous saints in history did not die in kashi (at least majority of them)

Tezz

4:52 PM

It is not necessary that to get liberation one must die at Kashi...

Rakesh Joshi

all the demons did wrong things yet killed by god and attained salvation so should we start doing demonic ?

The Destroyer

@RakeshJoshi There are many ways. Not only Kashi.

Rakesh Joshi

i m just making the point that even after witnessing inner kashi in the ajna if its still mandaory to go to physical kashi also then most of the saints would have done that no?

The Destroyer

@RakeshJoshi How can you say that thief can't get moksha by dying there without knowing his Karma. How can you judge? Law of Karma is complex.

Rakesh Joshi

once you obtain the self knowledge then therer is no need of any pilgromage

i m saying demons also got moksha by doing wrong deeds whole life so shall we start doing ? (as per puranas)

Seeker

4:54 PM

He cant be said enlightened till Kundalini pierces Sahasrar. Right?

Tezz

@RakeshJoshi there is one question related to it...

5

Q: What is the reason behind Gita favoring the SAtvika way over others?

Usually people who have read Gita, would say that NishKAma Karma is the way of "Karma yoga". Numerous verses suggest that, NishkAma Karma is SAtvika way of life. SakAma karma is RAjasika way & Vikarma is TAmasika way. Even attempting to perform Akarma is also sometimes considered TAmasika way. N...

bhagavad-gita karma yoga moksha spiritual-level

Rakesh Joshi

@Tezz again vedantic scripture :(

Tezz

@RakeshJoshi haha..

Rakesh Joshi

so geeta says to do good deeds and do internal meditation . good karmas

not to follow demons who got killed by gods at the end of their lives :)

The Destroyer

@RakeshJoshi Use name of person in your chats. It's unclear to whom you are asking or saying.

Tezz

4:57 PM

sv. says

Simple reason is, if everyone behaves like Ravana, there would be no humans left on Earth :P By Ravana-like actions I mean vikarma ("actions that are performed through the misuse of one's freedom and that direct one to the lower life forms") — sv. Dec 3 '16 at 18:45

The Destroyer

@Seeker There are many ways. Not only Kundalini. You don't believe other ways. That's your personal opinion.

Sree Charan

@Seeker Living with her? IS it the case of Tulsi?

The Destroyer

@Tezz But it's very difficult be like Ravana. He got boons from Brahma and Shiva. And so did Vishnu come to kill him.

Rakesh Joshi

ok bathing is ganger has inner meaning

ida and pingala meets at ajna and it becomes triveni. when susumna is activated . this is real prayag

when yogi is establishjed here he hears the sound of astral chakra .. at ajna he hears sound of water or waterfalls which is the inner ganges. his karmas are washed away as he underatands his real self

Seeker

@TheDestroyer I believe other ways as well.

The Destroyer

4:59 PM

@Seeker Yes. There are many ways. Each person like a way depending on his temperament.

Tezz

@Seeker even some rites can give salvation.. for eg. Sri Vaishnavas believe that rite of Sharanagati guarantees salvation..

@Seeker similarly the Atharvasiras tells that rite of Pashupat Vrata bestows salvation...

Rakesh Joshi

i think rite means somekind of ceremony . sharanagati is not some ritual ? @Tezz

@Tezz as per vedanta is it possible to attain salvation by vrata ?

Seeker

Oh. Great @Tezz @TheDestroyer

@SreeCharan I read about Vrinda.

Tezz

@RakeshJoshi No, Sharanagati in (Vaishnavism) is like rite... it involves taking some Davya mantras and reciting it... it's ritualistic...

Rakesh Joshi

so there should be no feeling of surrender? whatsoever ?

@tezz

Tezz

5:02 PM

@RakeshJoshi it's possible that through Vrata Lord comes there and he bestows knowledge... then he is liberated...

The Destroyer

@RakeshJoshi It's grace of Vishnu to grant Moksha in Sharangati. He won't see logic. Afterall, logic is nothing to Him. He grants if his devotees are sincere.

Seeker

I read no rites can liberate us.

Tezz

@RakeshJoshi yes... ask with @KeshavSrinivasan or other Sri Vaishnavas here like (@SreeCharan) one can do Sharanagati with no feelings of surrender also...

Seeker

The continued repetition of ‘I am Self-Brahman’ constitutes the sole mantra-japa leading to Mukti (Liberation). All other mantra-japas connected with diverse gods should be firmly eschewed, as they aim at mundane objectives other than the Self. All other mantra-japas always entangle one inextricably in the bondage of worldly enjoyments. (Ch.6, v.37)

Rakesh Joshi

@Tezz only with sadhana chatusthaya real jnana is possible that is what sankara has done in his bhashya

he has criticized all INCLUDING pashupata and other sects

hence i accept that you do not agree to sankara on his views to pasupata @Tezz

@Tezz @TheDestroyer as per logic how can ceremonies give liberation ? this is why sankara did not prescribe vedic ceremonies for salvation seekers

Tezz

5:04 PM

@RakeshJoshi haha... Shankara disagrees with Pashupatas on Lord being only intelligent cause of universe (not material cause)...

Sree Charan

"one can do Sharanagati with no feelings of surrender also" means how? @Tezz

Seeker

It is difficult to accept if rituals can grant Moksha.( End of birth - death cycle. ) 😯 Can you give references?

Rakesh Joshi

then how pasupara vrata can give moksha when its principles itself are flawed ? @Tezz

Tezz

@RakeshJoshi Ceremonies can invoke God and God can give knowledge... hence it is ultimately knowledge of Brahman which gives salvation...

Sree Charan

Who shall give references @Seeker? One who has attained moksha? ;P

Rakesh Joshi

5:06 PM

no one can grant knowledge . its your own quest .

Tezz

@RakeshJoshi Pashupat Vrata not of Shaiva Aagams it's of Atharvasiras... name matches doesn't mean that they are same...

No, Guru can grant knowledge...

Seeker

@SreeCharan. 😀😀😂. Then, can't get for now.

Rakesh Joshi

@Tezz any vrata is not prescribed by sankara for moksha be it vedic it agama

@Tezz it sounds sweet to hear "no" from your mouth

The Destroyer

@RakeshJoshi A person filled with Bhakti (too much) sees with indifference. It's like doing Karma Yoga. All paths of Yoga mingle finally.

Rakesh Joshi

sees what @TheDestroyer

Tezz

5:08 PM

@RakeshJoshi it is not necessary that Shankara should talk of Everything... anyway Shankara in Kena Upanishad Bhasya states Indra getting Brahma Jnana from Parvati..

The Destroyer

@RakeshJoshi He behaves like enlightened person.

Rakesh Joshi

@Tezz you should refer again to concept of jnana of sankara

guru can guide you towards jnana but you have to your self follow the sadhana chatusthaya

The Destroyer

@RakeshJoshi A work can be done in many ways. Same is Moksha.

Rakesh Joshi

not that you just sit idle and someone grant you jnana .

Tezz

@SreeCharan:

Sep 18 '16 at 9:19, by Keshav Srinivasan

@TheDestroyer Sri Vaishnavas believe that even someone who starts out having no Bhakti to Vishnu will be rescued from all sins if they perform Sharanagati.

Rakesh Joshi

5:10 PM

@TheDestroyer if someone is filled with bhakti then he sees god which is fine to accept but this cant be some ritual which will guarantee you a ticket to vaikuntha or confirm your moksha :)

Tezz

@RakeshJoshi I agree with you that if he doesn't have sharanagati in his heart then rituals can't do that...

Rakesh Joshi

for inner awakening it cannot happen with rituals

guru can only instruct you in the path

real sadhana u have to do

The Destroyer

@RakeshJoshi yes. I agree with you. He should at least have Bhakti.

Rakesh Joshi

ah it sounds sweets as if somene pouring honey in ears ... @Tezz @TheDestroyer

Sree Charan

@Tezz @RakeshJoshi Saranagati menas complete surrender. If you surrender yourself to lord, he will take care of you in this life and after life too. This is saranagati. If someone for name sake says I surrender to you and he doesn't mean it by heart. It is not fruitful.

Tezz

5:13 PM

@RakeshJoshi haha...

Sree Charan

This happened in the case of Gajendra the elephant.

Rakesh Joshi

@SreeCharan but someone said that saranagati is some kind of rite or ceremony

Sree Charan

Vedanta Desikan surrendered to Lord and got the gnana from Lord Hayagriva. So Lord can give you knowledge.

Tezz

@SreeCharan No, Keshava tells that just performing Ritual is sufficient... you can ask him...

Sree Charan

@RakeshJoshi Along with ceremony, the surrender is also important. By that ceremony, he accepts Lord Vishnu as his lord.

That is the meaning.

Without bhakti, we cannot get liberation.

Tezz

5:18 PM

@SreeCharan for instance... if someone makes a Muslim perform Sharanagati ritual by keeping gun in his head.. made him complete Sharanagati ritual and utter Dravya mantras... then he will be liberated... (isn't it? @KeshavSrinivasan )

Sree Charan

BIG NO.

Tezz

@SreeCharan let's wait what Keshava says:.. 😀

Sree Charan

@KeshavSrinivasan Did any king who followed Vaishnavism forced his people to worship Vishnu? Like the chola king did?

The Destroyer

@Tezz One possible chance, in previous birth if a person was about to get Moksha but for some reason it was cancelled and Vishnu told him to get just ceremony done for Moksha and he was born (assume some random Sanchita Karma got selected as prarabda Karma or Custom karma (lol) destined by Vishnu which includes ceremony too) and he gets Moksha. But this possibility is very rare.

Tezz

@TheDestroyer yes... also it maybe also true that only ritualistic method also works... who knows... haha...

3

Sree Charan

5:23 PM

People who die in that way will get a better janma and will be able to worship the lord and they shall have devotion (forget about caste). @TheDestroyer

The Destroyer

@Tezz law of Karma is complex. We don't know Leela of Lord too.

@SreeCharan Yes. In many cases there are born as enlightened souls. One such example is Shiva's son Kartikeya.

3

Q: What scriptures describe Brahma's son Sanatkumara being reborn as Shiva's son Kartikeya?

As I discuss in this question, by far the most popular school of Hindu philosophy is the Vedanta school, which bases its tenets on the doctrines laid out in the Brahma Sutras, a work by the sage Vyasa that summarizes and systematizes the philosophical teachings of the Upanishads. You can read the...

mythology brahma-sutras adi-shankaracharya kartikeya chandogya-upanishad

Sree Charan

AFAIK Alwars did not perform panchasamskaras but they recognised Lord and did saranagati and got moksha. So bhakti in heart is important. If you get the samskaras the deed becomes easy. That's the way.

Tezz

@TheDestroyer yes, simple statements in our scriptures also might be of great significance.. and we might simply discard them...

The Destroyer

@Tezz Those statements are meaningful when we understand their Leela.

Tezz

@TheDestroyer Yes... exactly... simple methods like remembering Arunachala or performing Sharanagati, PashuPat vrata , dying at Kashi etc... may also work.. and we might be simply neglecting them...

The Destroyer

5:29 PM

@Tezz Yes. But behind the scenes everything is logical. We just can't know it.

Tezz

@TheDestroyer yes...these simple things which we think now might of great penances of our previous birth...

Sree Charan

@Tezz No one makes it that way.

Rakesh Joshi

@Tezz so i hope its clear now that sharanagati is not a ritual but its an inner longing for the god.

Tezz

@SreeCharan meaning?

@RakeshJoshi Sharanagati is an inner longing for God... but it can also be done through rituals...

Rakesh Joshi

@Tezz try to understand sree charan answer

Sree Charan

5:41 PM

@Tezz By putting a gun on someone's head and forcing him to accept Vishnu as supreme. Sharanagati is the best way because you need not to be a gnani. Lord will make you a gnani after you perform saranagati. Saranagati means leaving everything to god's will.

Rakesh Joshi

i dont know in which language to explain you @Tezz

Tezz

@RakeshJoshi haha.. I'm understanding Sree Charan answer.. but I'm waiting for answer of Keshava...

Rakesh Joshi

he will be telling same thing

if things were ought to be happening by rituals then life would be so easy

ritual is just an initiation you have to do the journey

Pandya

wow, the room is filled with 9 users!

Rakesh Joshi

i think controversies are bringing in more people

SwiftPushkar

5:44 PM

@Pandya - haha me inactive ,most of the time :)

Tezz

@RakeshJoshi I'm sure @KeshavSrinivasan believes just only rituals only also work... anyhow one performs rituals then it works...

The Destroyer

@Pandya But @SwiftPushkar only saying Hi and Bye messages 😛

SwiftPushkar

@RakeshJoshi This is not the first time we observed this :)

Rakesh Joshi

@TheDestroyer i think @SwiftPushkar is good observer

Pandya

@SwiftPushkar and I'm going to sleep; bye!

Tezz

5:46 PM

@RakeshJoshi and any crime you commit after performing Sharanagati.. you will get Moksha...

SwiftPushkar

@TheDestroyer oh nothing like this , but i honestly do not like much debate or Vaada , it confuses me , so not participating ..

Rakesh Joshi

you have to understand what is sharanagati is in real... its hard thing to achieve we can refer sri aurobindo for it

SwiftPushkar

@Pandya Bye GN , TC :)

Tezz

Sep 18 '16 at 9:13, by Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan are you sure who has performed Sharanagati will not become criminal latter... or will not think bad of others...?

Sep 18 '16 at 9:21, by Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz @TheDestroyer By the way, this is related to a difference between Thenkalais and Vadakalais. Thenkalais believe that once you've performed Sharanagati you are no longer required to follow Dharma, but you should do so anyway to set an example for others. Vadakalais believe that Dharma is still obligatory after Sharanagati, and if you violate it then you'll be punished for it in this birth itself, but you'll still attain Moksha anyway.

Rakesh Joshi

is there anyone here who is able to connect via facebook

The Destroyer

5:48 PM

@Tezz Even i'm waiting for Keshava answer. I think there are no other possibilities to make ritual correct or we have to say just Leela.

Rakesh Joshi

@TheDestroyer do u follow siddheshwarananda bharati ?

Tezz

@RakeshJoshi read the last statement of Keshava there "but you'll still attain Moksha anyway."

Seeker

Will there be any time in future when all will get moksha eventually? Then from where God will create beings again? If God is first to create fresh beings without any previous Karmas then why only Jeev is responsible for Moksha?

Rakesh Joshi

everyone is going to get moksha anyway during dissolution or pralaya

The Destroyer

@RakeshJoshi No.

Rakesh Joshi

5:50 PM

but its those who want to evolve or quicken the process with upasana.

Sree Charan

@RakeshJoshi I think you mistook me. After surrendering to Lord, our journey will taken care by Lord. So it is not our own journey.

The Destroyer

@RakeshJoshi that is not Moksha. We still have our Vasanas.

Sree Charan

पिता च रक्षकः शेषि भर्ता ज्ञेयो रमापतिः स्वम्याधारो ममात्माच भोक्ताचाद्य मनूदितः

Tezz

@TheDestroyer Yes... I'm also waiting for his answer...

Sree Charan

This is the shloka from Pillai Lokacharya he explains the nine relationships of jiva towards paramatma.

Rakesh Joshi

5:51 PM

@SreeCharan i m saying about journey until reaching god

Seeker

@RakeshJoshi then from where Jeevas came during creation? Means God is creating without any previous Karmas? Then God is responsible for bondage?

The Destroyer

@Seeker See this interesting question,

9

Q: What will happen if all souls inhabiting Earth attain Moksha?

What will happen if all souls inhabiting Earth attain Moksha? Would new souls be created? They also say that only a human is capable of attaining Moksha (in extremely rare cases, animals too). In that case, assuming that everyone attains Moksha expect one person, what will happen to him/her? I ...

scripture moksha atma

Rakesh Joshi

@TheDestroyer at dissolution all the jagat is absorbed back into its own souce.

Seeker

Oh @TheDestroyer thanks.

Rakesh Joshi

@Seeker you refer 36 tatvas and creation again about jagat

The Destroyer

5:53 PM

@RakeshJoshi But that is not Moksha. We are born again as per our karma.

Tezz

@RakeshJoshi jagat is absorbed back but along with the Karmas... so they play as seed in next creation...

Rakesh Joshi

when everyone is absorbed into ONE how come there be any WE

Sree Charan

@RakeshJoshi He will take care of that. That's the point in Saranagati.

Tezz

Moksha is only when all karmas are cancelled...

Sree Charan

I clarify Saranagati means surrendering to god. The ritual you are thinking is not called Saranagati. It is called panchasamskara. @Tezz @TheDestroyer @RakeshJoshi

Rakesh Joshi

5:54 PM

@SreeCharan let me rephrase. until one gets real sharanagati . (not just ritual) .

@SreeCharan only some members brought up this ritual , i didnt say about it :)

Tezz

@SreeCharan I'm not sure which terminology is used...Keshava is using the term Sharanagati ritual... and I'm using that...

The Destroyer

@RakeshJoshi Yogis will cancel all impressions (chitta) through Yoga. They are annihilating all karmas in this way. In Bhakti Yoga, lord will destroy all Sanchita karma.

Rakesh Joshi

yes but you must open up for grace and surrender to god this itself takes good amount of sadhana @TheDestroyer

Seeker

@RakeshJoshi Yes, What I mean to say there is no answer of these questions unless we admit enjoyer is God, one who suffers is God. World is neither real nor unreal theory perfectly answer this question.

Sree Charan

@RakeshJoshi When one gets surrendered the journey will be taken care by Lord Vishnu. The ritual recognises accepting Vishnu as Supreme and surrendering to His lotus feet.

Rakesh Joshi

5:56 PM

@Seeker you have posted some graphs and flowcharts about creation . why not have a look at it again to understand creation

Seeker

God itself become Jeevas and experience pain & pleasure, so it is not injustice. See non duality wins here.

@RakeshJoshi Actually, still trying to get 100% razor sharp answer of "Why creation?"

Rakesh Joshi

@Seeker yes right . god becomes many with his freewill. and at the end the whole creation is absored back into one.

The Destroyer

@Seeker haha. God is not experiencing. Our Soul or Atma is mere spectator.

Seeker

Even Trika says

Tezz

@Seeker also the Svetasvatara Upanishad says " Supreme Lord himself binds himself in his Maya to enjoy as being the attitude of Jeeva." Here is also great concept...

Seeker

5:58 PM

Free will of Lord or nature

Sree Charan

By performing this ritual, we are recognised as Sri Vaishnava= belonging to Vishnu.

Rakesh Joshi

@SreeCharan vedantins believe ishwara does not exist at absolute level .what you think ?

Seeker

@TheDestroyer Yes. More correct. :)

The Destroyer

@RakeshJoshi Not Vedantins Advaita Vedantins say that.

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