TRPG General Chat

12:00 AM

In reality, (without evocations) they know a number of spells <= what sorcerers of the same level do, and sorcerers are known for their limited spell known count.

Karelzarath

Warlocks always felt strongly OP to me, but I never got to play one to see how the table experience differs from just reading the class.

Miniman

The thing is, 2 levels of warlock on any Cha-based caster sort of gets you the core of warlock.

CTWind

Yeah, I think if anything about them is OP it's their frontloading for multiclassing.

Karelzarath

That fistful of d6s every round all day long makes me wince a little.

CTWind

As someone currently playing a level 12 (only) warlock in a campaign, I more or less feel like an archer fighter who's traded off side features for invocations and a few spell slots per rest. I always have to reserve one/day for Hex (more if it gets interrupted), and often the other two go to utility rather than combat power.

(My GM also isn't great about short rests)

Miniman

12:06 AM

I suspect that the "cantrips progress with character level not class level" was a fairly spur-of-the-moment response to people asking, and I really don't think they thought about Eldritch blast at all.

The Oracle

4

Q: What should be done when there is an incorrect common answer that keeps getting deleted when the answerer realizes his mistake?

For a mild example of what I'm talking about, see this 5e question. There have now been three answers (two deleted, one (currently) undeleted) pointing out that by 5th level, a Fiend patron warlock would have Fireball on their patron's Expanded Spells list and, therefore, there is no scenario i...

discussion

CTWind

Days where my hex gets concentration broken or I specifically need a different concentration spell are rough days.

Miniman

@CTWind This seems to be a consistent thing - most tables (including mine) don't really seem to use short rests.

I think it's mostly a case of forgetting about them, like inspiration.

trogdor

this is 5e short rests?

Miniman

Yep.

trogdor

12:09 AM

it's so weird, hearing about the strange way those work compared to 4e short rests

CTWind

Yeah. I've had very few adventuring days that go "by the books"- usually we're saving a town from a raid, have only a couple major encounters in the day, or are doing an infiltration into a dangerous area and don't really have an hour to wait around and get discovered.

trogdor

if you go two battles without a short rest in 4e it's bad, if you go more than that you are in serious troubles

Miniman

Actually, thinking about it further, it's possible that short rests get ignored because players with long rest based resources burn through them too, and the party ends up looking for long rests most of the time rather than short.

CTWind

@trogdor I've mentioned this in here before, but my first 4e session where we actually had more or less the intended adventuring day was eye opening after playing it for, like, a year, with far, far fewer encounters per day.

trogdor

in 4e there was a decent balance of not needing extended rests too often

as long as you got enough short ones in between fights

CTWind

12:11 AM

Made me go "Oh, that's how 4e is supposed to work" as my resources finally got drained.

trogdor

@CTWind were you not counting encounter/daily powers as used up when you used them?

cause I could see that being an issue

CTWind

It's more along the lines of we did 2-3 fights per extended rest, so daily powers were often available and we rarely started feeling the pressure of low healing surges

trogdor

oh ok

yeah, extended rests are supposed to be scarce to get to

CTWind

Then I did a dungeon crawl with 8-10 encounters in it and one of us just legitimately died.

Karelzarath

Yeah, as a GM, I try hard to avoid 1-encounter days for that reason. Even experienced players can fall into the habit of ignoring resource conservation.

trogdor

12:13 AM

basically, the dynamic is that you are supposed to need a reaaaaly safe place to extended rest

and in the middle of a dungeon is not a really safe place to do that

CTWind

Part of it is we tended to have GMs that do globetrotting adventures with very few actual dungeon delves

trogdor

in our group, BESW had a really good sense for when the rests needed to happen

CTWind

so it tended to be isolated/random encounters or small skirmishes of 2-3 fights when we hit a plot point

Adeptus

@BlackVegetable Fun fact: the memory-wipe drug in Torchwood is called Retcon

trogdor

and we PC's. at least mostly, knew how to hold on to our daily resources pretty well, conserve em till they were needed in an important fight

Karelzarath

12:15 AM

@CTWind Yeah, that would do it.

trogdor

yeah you need certainly more than 2, possibly often more than 3, fights before an extended rest happens

otherwise you just walk into most fights with no worries about daily powers, and all fights with no worries about healing surges, even for those who probably should every once in a while

CTWind

@Miniman I think its a combination of this and hesitance to push onwards when people start noticing they're low on any resources, so they take their long rest early when they can.

trogdor

@CTWind that is when the GM should know to stop them, if it happens to actually be too early

CTWind

Yep, countering it requires a less gentle hearted GM than I tend to have :-P

Karelzarath

Yep. Not a fan of the 10-minute workday, myself.

trogdor

12:20 AM

@CTWind to be fair, our group put up with not being able to extended rest all the time pretty well

I think most of us bought into the resource conservation aspect of the game

Miniman

@trogdor The problem with that is that D&D is about solving obstacles. So when the DM makes it difficult for the party to rest, that actually focuses the party more on resting, not less.

I've been on both sides of that particular equation.

CTWind

Heh, I'm playing a Rogue in 5e with the Healer feat (as the only healer in the party) and it mildly reminds me of trying to be a 4e healer when the party's low on surges.

trogdor

@Miniman that is fair, see what I mentioned above about buying in

if the group doesn't buy into the concept itself, that is already it's own separate problem

@CTWind I liked being a pally healer when I was in 4e, because I could give my surges to heal people instead of using theirs

so there was a work around there

Miniman

@trogdor Yep, I think the smart thing to do is probably just say "guys, how about we keep going instead of resting every 2 encounters?"

CTWind

Ah, that's how Lay on Hands worked in 4e, right? Or was that a different power?

trogdor

12:23 AM

@CTWind as I recall Lay on Hands was it, yeah

CTWind

My only memory of 4e paladins was my nova round paladin, who I loved.

trogdor

it was a little tricky in some ways, because Lay on Hands was a daily power with charges (at least as I recall)

so I could use it multiple times, but the only way to refresh it was an extended rest

though I think I also had some other healing powers to complement it

optional stuff that I picked up and so forth because I was usually the main healer at the time

CTWind

My main healer experience was with Shaman, which was a ton of fun.

(for 4e, that is)

trogdor

we had a hybrid Shaman Warlord

early on

and so he did most of our healing at heroic level

and his version of healing was flavored as shouting at people who went down until they listened to him

Karelzarath

Met a grisly end?

trogdor

12:27 AM

like an aggressive drill sergeant XD

@Karelzarath he did actually die

my brother was playing him, and he was leaving, so the character got killed off and we had a funeral for him

Karelzarath

I didn't think you could die in 4e. ;)

trogdor

@Karelzarath well, it was a scripted death, sooo

Karelzarath

lol

trogdor

but yeah, dying in 4e isn't easy

Adeptus

@nitsua60 I found a list of FR stories in chronological order (in-universe)

CTWind

12:32 AM

@trogdor I have very little memory of how much of this was by the book, but I do remember someone throwing a javelin at my unconscious body, getting forced to make a new death save as a result, and standing up because I nat 20'd the save.

trogdor

well, I mean, not everyone is going to roll nat 20 on that

XD

CTWind

Yeah, but we did have an in-party story of the legend of the healing javelin after that point. :-P

Karelzarath

Javelined back to health?

I mean, there's the Final Fantasy IV cure staff that healed someone when you hit them with it. So, there's some sort of precedent...

paulodiovani

Any DFRPG player here?

CTWind

Not a player, but I am reading the new DF accelerated PDF

Karelzarath

12:37 AM

I had no idea there was a Dwarf Fortress RPG!

paulodiovani

hehe, it's Dresden Files :'D

trogdor

he means the Dresden files one XD

paulodiovani

@CTWind Is it good? I expect simpler rules for powers too.

CTWind

I'm enjoying the fluff, but admittedly I'm coming at it as a DF fan, not someone who played the prior Fate game.

I mostly just enjoy the in-world conversation around the content that the dresden file sourcebooks have had.

paulodiovani

Did you read the former DFRPG books?

And are you familiar with FATE System?

Miniman

12:41 AM

@Adeptus That is worryingly comprehensive. Also, weirdly, it appears FR authors put their big timeskips within series rather than between them.

CTWind

@paulodiovani I read them a long time ago and haven't played FATE since, so sadly my knowledge has more or less completely atrophied

Sorry >_<

paulodiovani

I see

Karelzarath

/me takes CTWind off the Xmas card list.

paulodiovani

I like FAE, but I miss the skills, that's why I always prefer FATE Core,

But I use FAE for fast games, in conventions, for example

Anyway, @CTWind, I was about to ask on the community about Blocks, do you fairly remember how to resolve them?

CTWind

Unfortunately not, sorry. Hopefully someone who's played FATE more recently is around soon!

trogdor

12:45 AM

blocks?

paulodiovani

I've just found an old question that may suffice. Reading though it...

trogdor

DFRPG blocks?

paulodiovani

yeah @trogdor

trogdor

I am pretty sure those are rolled, and then before anyone can do the thing you are blocking, they have to roll overcome to remove it

paulodiovani

yeah, that's it

trogdor

12:46 AM

and both parties can still add in any relevant fate point spends on aspects, or free invokes (including on the block itself)

paulodiovani

But the books examples about rolling defense within a block. But it's not clear if the defense must be against only the shifts that surpass the block it the full attack roll

trogdor

pretty sure the block absorbs the number of shifts it is worth

but anything after that needs to be rolled against

so if you have a block of four, and someone rolls 6 against it, I think you need to roll for defence against the remaining 2

paulodiovani

makes sense

and makes blocks really helpful

trogdor

of course, not all blocks are relevant to all defense rolls, but when they are I am pretty sure it works that way

@paulodiovani yeah they are, and the beautiful thing about them, to me, is that they are really useful to stop people from doing one specific thing, but it doesn't stop them from doing something else

paulodiovani

I see. So the idea is that no block can stop an opponent entirely

trogdor

12:53 AM

you can block them from leaving, but then they can roll for a cheap shot to attack you when you didn't shield yourself, or you can use it to preemptively defend, but then they can hit someone who isn't protected, or leave, or grab what they came for

@paulodiovani well, if you like, grapple them or something, you can make it so they can't run off right? but then they can start hitting you, or try to break out or something like that

the way I see it is that blocks are there to let you prepare to stop someone from doing a very specific narrow set of things, but they still get to do anything not covered by the block

I think a good block is supposed to leave some options open, but take away some sort of option that the person blocking doesn't want them to take

and they can even still take that option, but they would need to either roll overcome or brute force the roll to do it

paulodiovani

Got a good explanation on rpg.stackexchange.com/a/41921/32860

Specially this:
> In general, it's Block or Dodge but in certain circumstances a GM might allow both. However, you still don't get to add the two together.

trogdor

fair enough

but the rest of how I remember it working still seems correct

and I think the key there is the discernment of when dodging and blocking could both work

no one expects you to actually dodge a bullet

so that makes sense to me that only the block would work there, and shifts beyond that hit you

but if it's like, a guy punching you, I would assume the GM could be convinced to also allow a dodge roll

paulodiovani

1:08 AM

Yes

thanks @trogdor

trogdor

no problem, seems I was off a little about the roll for defense in every instance, but I think the rest of it works

BESW

1:45 AM

Want to playtest for the Hat? We are seeking groups to test out our upcoming RPG: == Fate of Cthulhu == Apply here: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdHmdmrmgdqtNIBrnPBo0WMSg9hvRTDOUsHgwOnpEf61-nsGQ/viewform

Tweeted by EvilHatOfficial on February 15, 2017 at 9:31 PM

nitsua60

1:56 AM

@Adeptus ty. Interesting that there's a 1396 --> 1462 skip in there... Guess that was 3.75 =)

Oblivious Sage

@doppelgreener Oh nice, more magic links for comments!

Shalvenay

hey there @nitsua60 and @ObliviousSage

nitsua60

hiya

Shalvenay

how're things going?

nitsua60

's'alright

you?

Shalvenay

2:06 AM

OK here

nitsua60

I got dragooned into one of these fit/active teams at work. (Groups of 4-6, competing on steps taken, minutes of activity, &c. All vs. goals you set, personally.) This... may not be good. I'm intensely competitive, and not in shape.

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 oh dear. do you think that will impinge on our upcoming game?

nitsua60

No. But it may mean that I'm walking at a treadmill-desk while we play. Let's see just how deep down this hole I fall!

BESW

...I need to get more exercise in my routine...

I just bought a bunch of nice shirts and if I gain much weight at all they won't be nice anymore.

trogdor

same here, I got some new shirts relatively recently, and I need to lose a bit of weight, not just not gain any honestly

BESW

2:19 AM

I could definitely stand to lose a bit, yeah. I'm at the very upper end of what I'm comfortable with.

trogdor

I have a habit of staying in, and I love to eat, so I need to make some changes to my overall lifestyle for sure

at the very least some regimented excercise, even inside my home, is both needed, and I think, entirely possible

Miniman

I know that feeling - I've been stable for about 4 years at "mildly overweight".

trogdor

I just need to actually like,... create the good habit

BESW

My only saving graces are that I don't like beef and I cook healthy vegan dinners for my family most nights.

trogdor

and then my habit of maintaining a daily routine should eventually make it easier

Miniman

2:24 AM

I have real difficulty motivating myself to exercise. When I was riding to uni, it was easy, but ever since then I haven't managed to maintain any exercise since.

Adeptus

@nitsua60 Interestingly, the books either side of that gap were both written in 2010...

trogdor

I used to have Tap lessons, and also even Karate classes where there was an emphasis on fitness, and then learning actual moves

BESW

I try to find something I want to do but have no time, and tie it to the idea that I need to make time for exercise.

eg: listening to podcasts or audiobooks. I can't do that while I drive or work because I get distracted, but I can walk or run while listening to them.

trogdor

I have time at the very start of the day,... but my free time at the end of work tends to get chopped up by other people

it doesn't mean I have no time to get excercise in, but it does mean it is a bit harder for me when I get stressed out by obligations

Adeptus

Before my office was relocated, I worked next door to a shopping centre. So, I'd spend 30-60 minutes most lunchtimes walking down the hill, all over the place in the centre (while eating junkfood...) then back up the hill to the office. Now it's a 5-10 minute drive to the nearest centre, so I sit & read instead...

Shalvenay

2:59 AM

hey there @Ash

user15026

Hey :)

Shalvenay

would you be interested in joining our 5e game starting in a week or so? this'd be with Nitsua and I, and hopefully BESW and VI as well

nitsua60

(one-shot, intended to showcase what 5e's all about)

user15026

@Shalvenay Possibly, but I know my terrible schedule kinda screwed things last time

nitsua60

this seems an exact duplicate of this, right?

BESW

3:05 AM

@nitsua60 They're more specific about game/edition in the second one, and generally more coherent.

Shalvenay

@Ash yeah...do you just not have the ability to open up a regular time slot for a few weeks?

nitsua60

In any case @Ash, just pop into Discord if you're interested. We're starting to slowly move toward forming up.... Lurk if you like, and there's a seat if you'd like.

user15026

I will poke my schedule with a stick and see how it goes ;) Same discord as before?

Shalvenay

@Ash indeed :)

BESW

Fate of the Inquisitor: Play materials for a Fate hack of Dark Heresy.

user15026

3:11 AM

Can I grab another link to it? I don't have it in my list for some reason as far as I can see

BESW

I think we can just ping you in the chat?

user15026

Ash#9401 is me

nitsua60

@SevenSidedDie can I ask: the dupe-hammer that you just dropped on the 5e races question, was that a super-duper-dupe you dropped? I feel like the "this question is an exact duplicate of" notice is more-firmly worded than the average dupe-notice.

SevenSidedDie

@nitsua60 That's odd, I didn't do anything special there. I don't think there are different duplicate notices…

Shalvenay

let me know when you grab it and I'll zap it from the log

SevenSidedDie

3:16 AM

@nitsua60 Huh, that does look different. Normally it says something like “already has answers here” or somesuch.

nitsua60

@SevenSidedDie here's a "usual" dupe-closure

SevenSidedDie

Maybe because it's by the same user. The system might assume that duplicates from the same account are reposts.

user15026

@Shalvenay Done

SevenSidedDie

@nitsua60 In any case, I didn't do anything special. The system is evidently doing something interesting that's beyond our control. :)

nitsua60

@SevenSidedDie And there's certainly a high fractional overlap in text....

@SevenSidedDie ooo-oooo-ooooh

(I'm picturing the three-eyed aliens from Toy Story there.)

SevenSidedDie

3:18 AM

:)

No, wait…

⋮)

6

BESW

The hammer...

Shalvenay

@Ash are you having issues with the invite?

user15026

I think it worked

BESW

@SevenSidedDie I assume !) is a winking three-eyed alien.

Shalvenay

@Ash can you get online and make sure? I still see you as offline in Discord

user15026

3:22 AM

I am online, I just messaged in General

Shalvenay

ah, I see now

it seems that you cloned yourself though

user15026

Yeah, I still haven't figured out how I did that or how to kill that other account

SevenSidedDie

@BESW Certainly! Now I wonder if other wink patterns are possible… Other than the obvious ¡) one.

BESW

3:37 AM

@MikeQ Hi!

Mike Q

@BESW Hey, it's been a while. What's new?

BESW

Might actually get to finish our first Bubblegumshoe mystery this weekend. [bouncy]

Yourself?

Mike Q

Busy with life. Also getting somewhat frustrated with one of the campaigns I am currently playing in.

BESW

Aw. What's up?

Mike Q

Half the party is experienced, the other half are new players who usually just goof around (doodling on the grid out of combat, not participating in trapfinding or NPC interactions, etc). I'm ok with them not contributing as much as the experienced players, but sometimes that means I have to play more aggressively in order to keep the party alive.

nitsua60

3:41 AM

@MikeQ system?

BESW

Hmm. So the GM is having trouble balancing encounters to be challenging for some without slaughtering others?

Mike Q

@BESW It's not the GM's fault - they're doing exactly what they should be doing. And as much as I want everyone to have fun, there are still many things trying to kill the party, and so being serious and tactical is often the best option. There have been multiple instances where one of the inexperienced players will make a poor decision in combat, and the newer players (including myself) had to say "No, don't do that, do this instead."

BESW

"There are many things trying to kill the party" is a choice the GM makes. I'm not calling out "fault," but there are many ways to run a game.

I've run games with characters at drastically different power levels, and with players who make drastically different kinds of choices. It sounds to me like your group isn't all of the same mind about what kind of game you're playing.

What system?

Mike Q

@BESW Pathfinder, using the GM's customized version of a published adventure path. We have a larger than average party, although we lack strategy or teamwork. The newer players are personal friends of mine, but sometimes I feel that the way they play their characters impede the party's progress.

BESW

Ah, yeah.

Adding new players to an existing group can be hard, because it will change the group dynamic.

I've tried incorporating players without changing the group's expectations, and it only works sort of, for a while.

Miniman

3:54 AM

Incidentally, is anyone around who's active on MSE?

Mike Q

I don't mean to imply that they are "bad" players. Usually, their goofiness provides a much appreciated humor. The problem is when the experienced players intervene and make decisions for them. That's unfair to the new players. But the alternative is unfair to the in-game party.

SevenSidedDie

@Miniman Sorta? What counts as active?

@MikeQ It does sound like the GM bears no fault, but would be well-served by adjusting the game to suit the game's intended audience's new composition.

Miniman

@SevenSidedDie There was recently a contentious issue, and I haven't heard anything about it in a while, so I was wondering if anyone here knew more than I did.

If we're going to talk about it it should definitely be in the bar, though.

BESW

The game's changed, because it's got new players. But the old players and the GM haven't changed how they're playing.

That's not to say the new players get to define the game themselves.

But the game emerges from the gestalt of the group, and the gestalt has new minds.

Mike Q

@SevenSidedDie @BESW Clarification: Most of the players, including the new ones, started the campaign at the same time.

BESW

3:59 AM

It can be difficult to figure out what the new paradigm looks like. I don't have magical answers.

Mike Q

@SevenSidedDie I would agree if the issue was that inexperienced players were making suboptimal decisions, because that's basically a universal issue. In my situation, the players are often not paying attention, don't keep track of when we give them powerful items, and expect the rules to be explained to them as we go along.

BESW

Maybe a different system would be in order, one that doesn't have as many fiddly bits, and makes dramatic action more tactically appropriate.

Mike Q

Example: One player spends all their resources on booze, parties, and cosmetics. They forget to equip protective gear, so their AC and saving throws are poor. In combat, this makes them an anchor.

@BESW Changing the system mid-game is not an option.

BESW

Yup, sounds like they're playing a totally different game, one for which the d20 System engine is not suited.

I've used three different systems in a single campaign; four if you count a significant variant hack.

It's a matter of picking a new system that can preserve important story elements during the transfer, and doesn't have the overhead costs (both monetary and time/energy) of something like D&D or Pathfinder.

Mike Q

In that scenario, what's the right approach, as a player? Should I really say "No, you can't buy that because it's not useful enough" or "Move to this square" or "Delay your turn"? As I said, I feel pressured to play more aggressively, and that may take away from their enjoyment.

BESW

4:09 AM

You shouldn't do anything as a player. You should talk about this with the whole group, outside of game time, as friends.

Don't try to fix a social problem with game solutions.

9

Magician

@BESW I will always star this advice

As BESW said, they're playing a different kind of game. And if they haven't "tuned in" to the way D&D/Pathfinder works, they probably won't. Not because they're incapable of it, but because they're not as interested in that kind of experience.

BESW

Sit down over pizza and talk about how the game's going. Get everyone's input: what's working and what's not, what they'd like to see more of, what they'd like to see less of. Share your concerns as part of this: that you're feeling like you have to tell other people how to play more than you'd like, and you think that's impinging on their enjoyment--but that if you don't, you feel it'll lead to party wipes that nobody would enjoy.

Mike Q

@Magician Then what can be done to make them more interested?

@BESW Good idea. That is a conversation that's been waiting for too long now.

BESW

I try to ask those questions after every session.

Magician

@MikeQ Again, as BESW said, talk to them. And be open to the idea that it could be you who'll have to adjust the playstyle.

Switching the system to Dungeon World may help a lot - there's much less focus on the tactical aspect of the game, while the general trappings of D&D are preserved.

BESW

4:14 AM

Keeps problems from festering, because people can speak up about things when it's still just a one- or two-session incident rather than a pattern of resentment.

(And it's always good to have folks say what they DO like, too!)

"Questions, comments, concerns, complaints, compliments?"

Magician

@BESW Cuestions

trogdor

lol

Adeptus

4:32 AM

@Magician qomments

SevenSidedDie

5:04 AM

/'kʰwɛsˌtʃṇz/

kumplayndz

Qué?

lol

@Magician “Manuel!”

Indeed

6:31 AM

I have a player that wants to play as a gnome archer with a "huge" bow. I looked into historical polearms and saw that several were considered effective despite being twice the length of the wielder, or greater than the ratio of longbow to gnome. Their story reasons make sense and I told him I would allow it, but anytime we deviate from the rules I try to consider whether a simple penalty is in keeping with the spirit of the game.
My best idea is to dock them a point in strength, making it that much harder to climb to safety or jump a gap. This feels too extreme but might be a reach in the …

Adeptus

@JackStout If the bow is too big, how will he draw it? may need to be something like the asymmetrical Japanese bows

Jack Stout

Fascinating. I was unaware of those.

I was also thinking of giving a speed penalty anytime the bow is drawn, which would drop the, already low, speed of 25ft. to 20ft.

Adeptus

These bows were taller than the wielder, which sounds perfect for what you're talking about

Yumi

Yumi (弓) is the Japanese term for a bow. As used in English, yumi refers more specifically to traditional Japanese asymmetrical bows, and includes the longer daikyū (大弓) and the shorter hankyū (半弓) used in the practice of kyūdō and kyūjutsu, or Japanese archery. The yumi was an important weapon of the samurai warrior during the feudal period of Japan. == History == Early Japanese used bows of various sizes but the majority were short with a center grip. By the 3rd century BC, the bow length had grown to nearly 2 meters. This bow was called the maruki yumi and was constructed from a small sapling...

Jack Stout

Perhaps, I'm thinking about it incorrectly. GURPS and FATE allow all kinds of strange bonuses at the cost of strange penalties. While we're not an RP focused group, it might make sense to have a strong character flaw.

It would also work to have no penalty. A gnomish daikyu sounds great!

Adeptus

6:48 AM

Which game? If it was D&D 3.5e, I'd probably make it an Exotic weapon, and just use medium-size longbow stats for small-size characters

Jack Stout

I regularly introduce tabletop to new players and I love the difference in ideas they bring. My more experienced players tend to stick directly to the options in the book.

D&D 5E.

Adeptus

(with no penalty other than it being Exotic)

Jack Stout

5E doesn't have exotic weapons but I take the idea of them into account when character are shopping for creative gear. I have a monk that's been asking around for nunchaku. (Stats as shortsword with bludgeoning damage.)

Do you run 3.5?

Adeptus

yes

Jack Stout

I liked it but haven't run a game in 12 years. Missed while we were trudging through 4E.

Adeptus

6:55 AM

Just having a look at 5e's weapon rules... I'd probably rule it as a longbow that doesn't count as Heavy

Miniman

@JackStout Is he planning on taking the Sharpshooter feat?

Jack Stout

It's flagged as heavy in this version of the book. If not in an older version, I'm more comfortable allowing it without penalty.

He's never played. Doesn't know the options.

Miniman

Hmmm.

Jack Stout

I'll probably show him that feat. No one in this group uses feats, but they should at least have them waved under their noses.

He's a last minute addition to tomorrow's game, so I've gotten a bunch of information from him and am filling out his character sheet. I always offer that as an option and allow the player to make changes as they learn the system.

Miniman

My suggestion would be that to stay within existing rules, he always uses the -5 to hit/+10 to damage - representing the difficulty of using a bow twice as tall as himself, as well as the added power of a bow of that size.

Jack Stout

7:06 AM

@Miniman That sounds reasonable.

Miniman

It still leaves the question of whether to use longbow stats or shortbow stats, of course.

Personally, I'd lean towards longbow stats - I don't think the restrictions on small creatures and Heavy weapons serve any particular purpose balance-wise.

Urist McDorf

@Miniman That sounds pretty terrible, bordering on useless. It'd

be only a last resort weapon or used on enemies with known low defence.

Miniman

@UristMcDorf It's not. Most dedicated archers do that anyway.

Urist McDorf

Oh? Okay, then.

Guess I'm just not familiar enough with the system to make judgements like that. Sorry.

Miniman

@UristMcDorf All good! Sorry if that seemed abrupt - I was writing out an explanation.

Jack Stout

7:10 AM

The description he gave me of a tiny man with a huge bow demands a longbow. Also, there's a longbow in the starting equipment.

Miniman

Since AC doesn't really increase with level or CR, landing your shots is pretty quickly taken for granted.

Jack Stout

@UristMcDorf I don't think it would be that bad since the bonus from weapon proficiency grows at a steady rate and enemy armor class doesn't.

Miniman

But it's difficult to get significant damage bonuses, and +10 is a lot by the standards of the game.

Jack Stout

What @Miniman said. :)

Urist McDorf

Fair enough. I was assuming the 50-55% hit norm.

Jack Stout

7:12 AM

If this was a tiny human, I would offer that feat at level 1.

Miniman

@JackStout Also, uniquely, the fighting style designed for archers increases accuracy anyway.

Urist McDorf

(I honestly hate the to-hit mechanic)

Jack Stout

Love the human alternative option. (Abil, Abil, Feat)

Miniman

@JackStout I'm not a fan of it - not that it's too strong, exactly, but it's too strong compared to other races.

I would give everyone a feat at level 1 and leave the variant human out.

Of course, I think feats should be more common in general, so I'm a little biased.

Jack Stout

I can see that. I built a human fighter and took tavern brawler rather than a great weapon feat so that I didn't outshine the other players. It can be OP.

Oh, I like that option. Can't imagine anyone would complain if I offered them each a feat. Might get that ball rolling in their minds, as well.

Miniman

7:16 AM

@JackStout I actually meant I would do that if I was designing the game, rather than suggesting it for your game in particular, but I'm glad you like it!

I've played in a couple of games that did it, and I think it makes for more interesting builds.

Jack Stout

I like to tinker with systems and develop my own, so I'm open to such things. I test my hand at game programming, too.

Thinking it might be appropriate for this group specifically because they have people that travel and often have up to half their group away. Feats might help to fill that void.

Urist McDorf

@JackStout What do you make your games in?

/me is a game designer that needs ~~slaves~~ volunteers to help him out with stuff.

Other than that, just interested.

Jack Stout

Started in QBasic, then DarkBasic Classic and Pro in my teens. Have been using C and Python, and just started whittling at Godot.

I'm nearly equally terrible at them all.

Urist McDorf

Ah, interesting.

Have you tried using game engines like UE4 or Unity?

Or Love2d (the Lua library)?

Jack Stout

Probably should have looked into GameMaker, but I'd rather stick with what I started using.

My brother develop in UE4. I built maps and wrote code for UE2004 and the first Half-Life engine, back in the day.

Lua is alright, but I always feel like I'm hammering on it. Most of my ideas work fine in 2D, so that's mu' focus.

Urist McDorf

7:24 AM

For existing projects, sure, but I recommend you to think about UE4/Unity if you make something new. They have a lot of stuff that facilitates easier, well, gamemaking. I'm personally partial to Unity (started with it plus everything being C#-based resonates with me) but UE4 is great as well (the blueprints system is fun).

Jack Stout

Really only know Lua because of Minecraft mods.

Urist McDorf

The components system really opened up my mind when I figured out how it works.

Jack Stout

Have never worked C#. Looked into it and also seen people use it for Space Engineers.

Urist McDorf

It's relatively easy to learn if you have a C background.

Anne Aunyme

8:55 AM

@JackStout: someone here who played computerCraft :)

eimyr

10:51 AM

plop

CTWind

11:35 AM

@UristMcDorf Yep, love Unity and C# myself.

Been using it for... 8 years? now.

Urist McDorf

Cool.

I wish I had more time for my projects but alas

And the one programmer I do have available prefers UE4 :(

CTWind

Yeah, back in college the main split was between Unity and Unreal. And then there were the poor souls that picked Torque.

But yeah, been using Unity professionally for a few years now after using it personally for longer. It's very popular for beginners and has been getting picked up more even by the mainstream industry. (Hearthstone's a Unity game, for example)

Urist McDorf

11:50 AM

Sweet. I'd love to bounce some ideas off of you sometime. I want to gamedev but can't find the time to actually, well, dev, instead of just doing the design and everything.

I even have a game I'm supposed to be working on with a friend but it's been ded for a while since we ran into problems with MP

And also because it's a big game and we're volunteers :P

CTWind

Yeah, multiplayer's a tricky thing. I've been in the boat of a team of volunteers working on a passion project in their own time where the passion just kinda fizzled as the project went on.

Urist McDorf

Yeeeah

That's pretty much our situation, tbh.

CTWind

(For us it was mostly because we got scattered across the country and didn't have syncable schedules anymore.)

Urist McDorf

Ah. We don't have syncable schedules in the first place, my programmer is from Belgium :)

CTWind

Aw. Yeah, that can be rough. Most of our progress came from the few weekends we found where we could all kind of just jam on the game all weekend. Kept skype or whatever open so we felt like we were working together, kept the motivation up.

Urist McDorf

12:00 PM

Neat

For me it was just furiously prototyping and going around and telling people about it and looking for volunteers and everything

And then bam MP

And we can't figure it out

And everything stops

Have you ever played Space Station 13?

CTWind

You guys using Unity's built in networking stuff? I haven't touched it since they overhauled it a few versions ago.

Urist McDorf

We tried. Then we tried Forge.

CTWind

(Not out of hatred or anything, just hasn't come up. Projects I've worked on since then have used standard web calls for any online functionality as opposed to direct open connections)

Urist McDorf

Then found out that even if we could figure it out we'd have to rewrite a lot of the prototype - that was my fault, didn't have enough foresight as the "project's manager"

CTWind

@UristMcDorf Haven't, sorry.

Urist McDorf

12:03 PM

A big problem comes from the fact we'd require a relatively thin client - the game's design relies heavily on information hidden from players.

CTWind

Yeah, a lesson I probably haven't learned yet when it comes to personal projects is planning the architecture ahead for multiplayer

Urist McDorf

@CTWind That's okay, never play it.

It's a horrible, horrible game.

It's also a unique and great concept.

And I love it.

Still horrible tho

CTWind

Or rather, I have learned that lession by avoiding building multiplayer personal projects. >_>

Urist McDorf

Basically, you have a space station where every player plays a character with his own job - some are engineers, some are security, there are a couple of "command" jobs, there's the chef and the clown, stuff like that

CTWind

Ah, the space clown.

Urist McDorf

12:06 PM

Everyone has to do their thing, and the interactions between the game's elements are incredibly complex (not necessarily deep though)

Random events such as meteors and stuff assault the station, and even if everyone does the job good, eventually you'll have to call the shuttle, ending the round. Each round is nuclear - nothing carries over.

You can save character presets and job preferences but that's it.

CTWind

Ah, ok, so it's a 'delay loss as long as possible' game

Urist McDorf

So far so good, right? But here's the twist - among the characters there are traitors. They have to kill certain people, steal certain high-value objects, destroy systems and they have the tools for it.

Depending on the game mode, instead of the traitor you might have a space wizard, a syndicate squad trying to plant a nuke, or other threats - all united by the fact that they're a player trying to disrupt the workings of the station.

CTWind

Hmm, ok. So social elements of things like Werewolf/Mafia/Secret Hitler/etc. on top of that.

Urist McDorf

And that's the concept of it. Complex, simulationist (in a way) game with a lot of social stuff and roleplaiyng thrown in.

Shame it's terrible.

It's plagued by a bad engine, terrible spaghetti/bugged code, and, worst of all, design decisions that were almost exclusively made with thought put in amounting to "hey that's cool let's put that in the game"

CTWind

Yeah, most games I know of that have that social element are either really finely honed or simple enough at its core that it doesn't run the risk of turning into a mess.

Urist McDorf

12:13 PM

It's open-source and the code teams I know (there are several, each with their own version of the game) allow almost anyone in.

It's basically a gold nugget in a gigantic pile of dung.

Each time you play it, you dive for the nugget. Sometimes you get it.

And that's great.

But mostly it's just a bad experience all in all.

Anne Aunyme

do you know about Mush?

Urist McDorf

I've worked on the game for a year and a half back in the day, and I love it because it's something I poured some of my heart in.

Anne Aunyme

It's a French multiplayer video game

and it seems pretty close to what you are describing

Urist McDorf

But I want to see a good game based on the concept, and that's what my project is about.

@AnneAunyme I've heard of it and I think it's been at least inspired by the game.

CTWind

@UristMcDorf That's always a strong motivator for the things I personally want to work on. (This statement is definitely not at all related to this one, no siree)

"I want to see something I haven't seen in a while/I want to do something right that's come so close in the past" are big sources of inspiration for me.

Urist McDorf

12:18 PM

@CTWind Speaking of that statement, I'd also love to make a tactics-based game and I even have a unique (?) way of level-less advancement I've designed for one. And some other stuff. So I'm up for ideas if you ever want to actually make one :)

I can also give a link to the public "design document" (not at all finished but with the basics in place) I've wrote for the SS13 thing, if you're interested.

CTWind

Heh, I have enough projects for now, though I may have a look out of curiosity at some point. But for now I have to head out to work! (Side note from earlier conversation: My favorite networking suite I've used so far is WCF ( msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms731082(v=vs.110).aspx ), but sadly I don't think Mono has the full library for use in Unity)

Urist McDorf

12:37 PM

Have fun at work :)

Urist McDorf

1:04 PM

Anyway here it is if you ever wanna take a look: docs.google.com/document/d/…

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