English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

9:00 AM

Here, it's kind of "trendy" to be green, whether you do so in a thought out way, or not.

5

Which is correct? Everyone were convinced that he would go to the game. Everyone was convinced that he would go to the game. I think it's "was", because "everyone" is singular, but I just wanted to check.

Cerberus

@DavidWallace Isn't it like that all over the Western world?

David Wallace

You'd think there could only be two possible answers. Somehow, there are three posted.

Umm, I tried to edit that and lost a bit.

I wanted to say - Completely unrelated, I'm starting to think that ELU is a complete waste of space.

Cerberus

Yeah, the other two do not add much to Nohat's answer.

David Wallace

@Cerberus I don't know.

Cerberus

Waste of space?

It is. Even Americans have turned green outside the traditional left-wing circles.

David Wallace

9:06 AM

@Cerberus I guess I'm still stuck in our conversation from yesterday.

Cerberus

Oh?

What was it about?

David Wallace

About ELU being pointless; wondering who it's for.

Cerberus

Oh, that, yes.

Perhaps it doesn't matter.

David Wallace

@Cerberus The first time I went to Bosnia, I was gobsmacked at the absence of any means to recycle stuff. Every single person puts every single piece of waste in a big rubbish bin. And taxis are the way that people most commonly travel, because they're really cheap. I felt almost dirty.

Cerberus

We have no recycling here either, except paper and glass.

It's different outside the city.

David Wallace

9:10 AM

You're in Netherlands, right?

Cerberus

But here all the banana skins and plastic wrappers go in the same bag.

Yes.

David Wallace

But paper and glass is better than nothing.

Cerberus

But, being the sceptic that I am, I'd like to know what the ultimate goal of separating compost is.

Then I'd like to know how the separation process works in order to find out whether it furthers these goals.

David Wallace

I thought the compost argument was about it taking up space in a landfill. In any case, it makes my vegetables grow better.

Cerberus

Space in a landfill? Is that all?

And why is that so bad?

And how much does the separation and processing cost?

David Wallace

9:17 AM

tlc.howstuffworks.com/home/matter-compost.htm

Cerberus

Okay, but I'd like to see an analysis that is a bit more quantified.

David Wallace

9:38 AM

Are you saying that we shouldn't make an effort to be green, if we can't measure the effects of those efforts?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

0

Q: Value in use now and value to be used later

I am programming a web page and need to keep track of two date values. One is the search criterion in use at present and the other is a date entered by the user which has not yet been selected as the criterion. I am struggling to think of succint names for these two values. The best I can come u...

programming

How to name variables. Off-topic.

David Wallace

Should be moved. Probably to programmers.SE

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Would get closed there. Bikeshedding.

David Wallace

Really?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

9:54 AM

Well I haven't visited in a looong time, but last I heard from Mark Trapp and Anna Lear, they discouraged bikeshedding questions.

I mean, it's a) subjective and b) too localized.

David Wallace

The new moderator is one Yannis Rizos (not sure if I've spelt that right). I don't think that he would close this one.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Interesting.

David Wallace

Of course, a bunch of 3000+ers could close it.

user19161

@RegDwightѬſ道 What is bikeshedding, parking a bicycle in a shed?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Parkinson's Law of Triviality

Parkinson's Law of Triviality, also known as bikeshedding or the bicycle-shed example, is C. Northcote Parkinson's 1957 argument that organisations give disproportionate weight to trivial issues. Parkinson demonstrated this by contrasting the triviality of a bike shed to a nuclear reactor. Later, Poul-Henning Kamp applied the law to software development and introduced the colour of the bike shed as the proverbial trivial detail receiving disproportionate attention. Argument First mentioned in C. Northcote Parkinson's 1956 book Parkinson's law, and other studies in administration , the...

52

Q: The bike shed problem and SO

In short, the bike shed problem: If you go before the Board of Directors and ask for 1.5 Billion dollars to build a Nuclear Reactor, no one will review or discuss the details of the plant. They will assume that experts have been over every inch of the plans, and not want to look ...

discussion stackoverflow difficulty

David Wallace

9:59 AM

I could argue that poor naming of variables is a pervasive blight on software development. And that anyone seeking advice on naming variables well should be given visibility.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

It's not like you don't have a point, but this is a case of giving a man a fish vs. teaching him fishing

David Wallace

But my views on naming variables are not popular on Programmers.SE.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

A general question about naming variables well for the rest of your life could be of great value.

David Wallace

I've learnt to put them into comments, rather than answers, so that they don't cause me to lose reputation :-)

RegDwight Ѭſ道

But "how do I name this particular variable in this particular program" is too localized. Even the OP himself will probably forget a week later.

user19161

10:01 AM

You can name a variable whatever you want.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@JasperLoy Which is why it is completely off-topic here.

David Wallace

So if I could answer around general principles of choosing variable names, like kind of a tutorial, that would be worth keeping the question open for? But if I just suggest a couple of names, it wouldn't be. Is that what you're saying?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Well if you suggested the couple of names as examples of the general pattern you are advocating, then it's obviously fine.

David Wallace

Do you think the OP posted it on ELU because he knew it would get closed if it were on Programmers?

I'm more concerned by the guy who thinks that two divided by four is one and a half.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@DavidWallace No idea. You could ask him.

@DavidWallace I only saw the title of that one, haven't looked into it yet.

user19161

10:06 AM

@RegDwightѬſ道 I don't see how it is on-topic on any SE site.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@DavidWallace Looks like he's fixed it an hour ago.

David Wallace

So how could he re-word it in a way that would cause it to be on topic? "I seek general advice on how to name variables. For example ... "?

@RegDwightѬſ道 Oops, right you are.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@DavidWallace Well I have no idea what would or would not make it on-topic in another site, but that certainly wouldn't make it on-topic here.

David Wallace

Yeah, obviuosly, sorry.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

To make it on-topic here, he would have to make it beneficial to people who are not programmers.

David Wallace

10:09 AM

I was thinking about Programmers.SE I suppose.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Yeah but as you see I wasn't even aware they have new mods.

These days I don't spend anywhere as much time on other SE sites as I used to.

Cerberus

@DavidWallace I'm saying that it doesn't make sense to do these things unless two conditions are fulfilled: 1. the purpose should be formulated; 2. there should be reasonable evidence that they further this purpose and do not have other disadvantages that outweigh the benefits.

David Wallace

@Cer - so you're saying that in the absence of evidence one way or the other, I should maintain the status quo, instead of adopting common sense?

Cerberus

Common sense can be evidence.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Hm. Somehow the site's design is now broken for me.

Cerberus

10:14 AM

The smaller the sacrifice you need to make, the weaker the evidence may be.

David Wallace

@RegDwightѬſ道 I am a professional programmer, so my two most commonly used SE sites are SO and Programmers.

@RegDwightѬſ道 How so?

Cerberus

But formulating goals is always a prerequisite.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Cerberus

Wow you have lots of medals.

You're so cool!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Looks like someone is fooling around with the z-index.

David Wallace

10:15 AM

What browser dost thou use?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Firefox. More to the point, the exact same browser I used two minutes ago when everything was fine.

Cerberus

Site looks fine to me.

FF.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Oh well let me restart.

Cerberus

Permission grante...

Oh.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Back to normal.

Strange.

Cerberus

10:17 AM

Very.

David Wallace

What's with the whole issue vs lend crap?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Pardon?

David Wallace

It's obvious that one word is standard in US, the other standard in UK. Yet the answers consist of a whole lot of alternating ... no you're wrong, it's X ...

Why can't people understand that English consists of more than one idiolect?

14

Q: Verb for librarian giving book to library visitor

What's the appropriate verb to describe the action the librarian does when you borrow a book at the library, something like hand or give?

verbs

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Well that's what happens when I don't protect stuff in time.

David Wallace

Oh, and I only just realised that this question is about a month old. It only showed up on the list just now.

On some SE sites, questions come back when there's activity; others are strictly sorted by date asked.

Sometimes, I forget which category of site I'm looking at.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

10:27 AM

Huh. That's news to me that on some sites edits don't bump questions to the front page.

Perhaps you have a different tab selected on those?

Those cookies are merciless. They remember your last selection forever.

Cerberus

Probably. It took me months to figure out why sometimes the questions I wanted refused to show up.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

That has happened to everyone at one point or another.

Cerberus

phew

Then I'm not as dumb as I look.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

That could mean that you are dumber. :P

Especially seeing how you don't look dumb at all.

Cerberus

How am I supposed to tell anyway?

I don't?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

10:30 AM

Well you're but 256 pixels. Not much to see there.

Cerberus

I've trying to cultivate a dumb look to better manipulate people.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Tell me more about it.

Cerberus

I'm afraid that is not possible at this moment.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Then allow me to remain skeptical for the time being.

Cerberus

I was going for something like this.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

10:32 AM

That is gross.

Cerberus

But then I accidentally stuck my head in the oven and the hair burnt off.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

It's not even dumb, it's just ewww.

Cerberus

@RegDwightѬſ道 You're kidding!

It is rather absurd. I presume that was done as a joke while cutting his hair, then the rest was removed immediately after taking the photo.

This one's nice too.

Vitaly

@Cerberus expect ifile.it to be gone too: huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/15/…

David Wallace

@Cerberus shit for brains?

Cerberus

10:42 AM

@Vitaly Oh, dear.

Yes, that looks pretty bad for Ifile.it.

@DavidWallace Heh, yes, that must have been the idea.

@Vitaly What do you think, can new laws and lawsuits really destroy on-line file sharing?

David Wallace

The "idiot" picture reminds me of Tame Iti, who's on trial here in NZ at the moment.

Cerberus

Or will alternative, indestructible ways be used?

Vitaly

@Cerberus they can destroy individuals, they can't destroy file sharing. it's a game of whac-a-mole really.

Cerberus

@DavidWallace Who?

@Vitaly So you don't they they can make it so hard that it will become impractical for most people?

I read several of the largest BT sites are considering shutting down.

Vitaly

@Cerberus … it's already impractical for most people. always has been.

David Wallace

10:45 AM

Tame Iti

Tāme Wairere Iti (born c. 1952) is a high profile Tūhoe Māori activist. He grew up in the Urewera area of New Zealand, and in the late 1960s and 1970s he was involved in protests against the Vietnam War and apartheid-era South Africa, and in many Māori protest actions. His ability to court controversy and his full facial moko make him well recognised. Along with three others he is currently on trial accused of "illegal possession of firearms and participation in an organised criminal group". Early life Born on a train near Rotorua, Tame Iti grew up with his grandparents in the custo...

Cerberus

@Vitaly How so? Everybody does it here.

torrentfreak.com/…

Ernesto usually seems well informed. ^

@DavidWallace Oh yikes.

Vitaly

@Cerberus no matter how realistically many people you personally know, those aren't most people :P

most people wouldn't know how to turn a computer on >_>

Cerberus

@Vitaly I mean just your average person under 40, really. Or at least people who went to university.

Of course my mother wouldn't know how to.

David Wallace

Why do you have to be under 40 to know how to file share?

Cerberus

It's the law.

Vitaly

10:49 AM

why do you have to be a large publisher to cut people who live in SE Asia, Africa etc off from books they wouldn't spend a cent on anyway?

Cerberus

After 40, you're required to ask your grandson to turn on the computer.

@Vitaly Yeah, I don't think strict copyrights are beneficial to society at all.

And that's what should count in the end.

So what do you think is the future of file sharing?

user19161

@Vitaly I am glad that cheap paperbacks are available rather than expensive hardbacks sometimes.

Cerberus

We went from p2p programs like Napster and Limewire and Kazee to torrent sites and file repositories.

Is there any way large torrent sites can survive somehow?

I mean, you can have a site in some obscure country, but, if IP addresses are blocked here...

I suppose you could get the torrent file itself through some kind of proxy network, then download the content over your normal network p2p but encrypted.

Vitaly

11:18 AM

hey @Cerberus, how much time have you got?

Cerberus

You mean that as in the common expression, or as a real question?

I have some time, though I don't know how much.

Vitaly

the latter

Cerberus

Wai?

Vitaly

@Cerberus check your email

Cerberus

Oh!

I didn't even know you had my e-mail! Lemme see...

Vitaly

11:26 AM

@Cerberus everyone's email is visible to everyone else on Chatzy

Cerberus

Oh, right.

Thanks for your message!

Vitaly

@Cerberus well, should I?

Cerberus

Yes! I have sent you a polite reply, hehe.

user543101

Hello all..

Cerberus

To change the subject completely, downloading anything is legal here.

user19161

11:31 AM

@Cerberus That's nice.

Cerberus

Uploading things in large quantities with the prospect of making money out of it is illegal.

Hi user.

Vitaly

@Cerberus I can't see it yet?

Got it.

Cerberus

Ah.

Vitaly

Replied.

Cerberus

Wow, cool!

I use that same thing you're using too, it is incredibly easy to set up.

Now I have some browsing to do...

user543101

11:34 AM

How's your day so far?

user19161

@user543101 543101 is very mysterious.

user543101

not true..

its just generic :)

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Vit def war

Vitaly

K.

Cerberus

Pretty interesting collection.

Vitaly

11:41 AM

Difficult def decks there. Wasteland Skimmers, Fear spams …

Cerberus

If there's anything you need...

Though I can't really think of anything that you would need but cannot get yourself.

Vitaly

@Cerberus I need a backup of all that :PPP

Cerberus

Oh, I can do that!

If you send me a t or m I can back it up on my external hard disk.

But downloading file by file is a bit slow.

Vitaly

A t or m?

Oh.

Cerberus

A t file or an m link.

You know.

Vitaly

11:45 AM

Well, in that case, I'm shutting the server down for now.

Cerberus

OK.

I got the things that seemed interesting to me, thanks!

Vitaly

Sent the m link.

Cerberus

OK, I'm making room on my HD (somehow it always fills up).

Cerberus

12:01 PM

There is something very weird with my computer. It refuses to connect with my USB hard drives in a stable way.

Other USB devices are rock stable.

And it also depends on the moment, it seems.

user19161

12:30 PM

@gigili You back?

user19161

@Cerberus What happens when you plug it in?

Cerberus

It connects, autoplay and all; then it will stay connected for a minute or a few seconds before disconnecting again.

Then it reconnects, etc.

On my laptop it always works fine.

I tried different ports on my desktop: sometimes it work flawlessly on one port, sometimes on another; and sometimes it doesn't work on either port.

I have an extra USB2 card installed, but the same problems occur with that too.

It happens with two different USB drives.

It never happens with any of my other USB devices.

Nor does it ever happen on my laptop, with either drive.

What the hell could this be?

user19161

@Cerberus Did you try another USB hard drive?

Cerberus

Yes, two USB drives exhibit similar problems.

So it must be something in my computer.

user19161

@Cerberus Are the two of the same model?

Cerberus

12:35 PM

No, very different.

Different sizes, different brands.

Vitaly

Cerberus, Amsterdam, The Netherlands

516 1 6

autohotkey windows-7 windows-xp windows keyboard-shortcuts keyboard firefox

user19161

@Cerberus Maybe sth wrong with comp.

Vitaly

>_>

user19161

@Vitaly <_<

Cerberus

@Vitaly Heh, perhaps I should try that...do you think people could help me with such a vague problem?

@JasperLoy Yeah, most probably.

I am guessing motherboard.

Vitaly

12:37 PM

@Cerberus no, i have no idea how the site works. still worth a shot though, you seem to have researched the possibilities quite a bit to be able to describe the specifics.

Cerberus

Yeah I suppose I could try it.

Oh, and sometimes, when those drives don't work, I can clearly hear them making a ticking sound!

Both drives have done that.

With a frequency of about 1 Hz.

At first I though the drive was broken, but both drives display this behaviour, and I have never seen any data loss or anything.

And they never tick when connected to my laptop.

If it isn't my motherboard, it could be drivers, perhaps.

And now this drive has been working perfectly on one of the front ports for twenty minutes, while a few days ago it refused to stay connected on the same port. I had tried it on another port twenty minutes ago, but there it kept ticking and disconnecting.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

1:13 PM

@Cerberus If all your ports exhibit the flaky behaviour it's probably not the port. Also, typically Windows doesn't need special drivers for USB storage. Your USB controllers might need custom drivers. Make sure those are up-to-date. Do you know if your two controllers are using the same, or different, drivers?

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Hmm I have no idea! How do I tell which controller is which?

And does one controller correspond to one port? I never really understood what a controller is, except that it is probably something on the mobo...

I have installed the standard driver package from my motherboard's website (Gigabyte).

My USB things.

VIA is my internal USB card, I believe.

Gigili

@JasperLoy: Yes, now.

user19161

@Gigili I see.

Robusto

Hola.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Semana.

user19161

1:28 PM

Aloh.

user19161

Anames.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

english.stackexchange.com/suggested-edits/2090

Robusto

@RegDwightѬſ道 My favorite part is "and not just sex period."

Cerberus

Such a subtle edit.

Really nice subject too.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Robusto the editor is probably not aware that "period" also means "menstruation".

user19161

1:34 PM

@RegDwightѬſ道 Or class.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

It's quite hilarious, really.

Robusto

@RegDwightѬſ道 Why it is funny. It's funny because it's true. Funny and true.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Robusto Yes, I'm just saying that he is not aware of that. It's not a deliberate pun.

Robusto

I am aware of that. His obliviousness makes it funnier.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I find your ideas interesting and am subscribing to your newsletter as we speak.

Robusto

1:37 PM

Amazon is trying to pawn off Immersion as a "new" Pink Floyd album. For shame.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Well-forgotten old is the new new.

Robusto

They emailed me all breathless, like. "Hey! NEW Pink Floyd Album!!!"

user19161

@RegDwightѬſ道 I did not knw he has a newsletter!

Robusto

@JasperLoy Don't get too excited. It's behind a pay wall.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I think you can check a box somewhere so the emails read "USED Pink Floyd Album!!!" henceforth.

user19161

1:39 PM

@Robusto Yeah I still have your invoice in my inbox.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@JasperLoy *know, *had.

user19161

@RegDwightѬſ道 Good. I was testing you.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Yawn. Also, shrug.

Robusto

@Cerberus: In case your friends need to get to know Amsterdam, here's a link you can send them.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus If you're unsure about which controller is which, you could unplug the add-on one

But I suspect that the Intel one is the built-in one as it has so many controller instances. Probably one controller for each pair of USB ports, so as to provide better throughput.

Maybe you need to check for updated drivers.

@JasperLoy hey you finally got a star for your tan/cos/sin joke!

user19161

1:44 PM

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I was shocked! I must be dreaming...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, repeat it often enough and someone is bound to take pity on you

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 The thing is, I have just downloaded all drivers from the Gigabyte website, and that didn't help.

I can't tell whether that included USB drivers.

And, if the ports on the VIA card exhibit the same behaviour, could it still be a driver issue?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It could if they use the same driver

Also, it could be the windows driver that's broken

Cerberus

Okay, but then where would I find another driver if not on the Gigabyte website?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Finally: This is one advantage you'll get from updating to Windows 7: almost all common hardware that was sold before 7 was released will have official drivers provided by Microsoft and those drivers are often much higher quality than the vendor drivers of yore

@Cerberus Hm... Intel, or Microsoft

Star Wars diorama as a music-box:

Cerberus

1:48 PM

And they might have drivers that are included in Windows updates?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

►

@Cerberus Yes, possibly

Cerberus

Sorry, I meant not included.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I see driver updates in Windows Update more often on Vista or 7 than I recall seeing them on XP

Vitaly

@Cerberus How's it going with the t?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Cheesus frigging rice, someone's got way too much time.

Cerberus

1:50 PM

@Vitaly Still 0!

Vitaly

@Cerberus Still 0 with either t or m?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightѬſ道 yeah but they're spending that time awesomely

RegDwight Ѭſ道

The years passed, mankind became stupider at a frightening rate. Some had high hopes the genetic engineering would correct this trend in evolution, but sadly the greatest minds and resources were focused on playing with LEGO.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightѬſ道 I see nothing wrong with that scenario.

Cerberus

@Vitaly Yes.

Vitaly

1:55 PM

Well, I don't know why it wouldn't work.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 The most recent drivers I can find on the Intel site are from 2003...

@Vitaly Yeah, it's strange!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus hm what year is your computer from?

Vitaly

@Cerberus “0 of 3 connected”

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I built it in 2008. All the parts were new then.

I saw the correct list of files when I added the t file, so it should all be in order.

Vitaly

…

Cerberus

1:59 PM

It is really strange.

I'll just leave it on.

Vitaly

@Cerberus I can get it off myself.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, maybe you have a virus or something, that interferes with the USB functionality.

Cerberus

Ah I saw 0.1 Kb for half a second, then it disappeared. And still 0 (0).

Robusto

@MrShinyandNew安宇 A virus? On XP? Pfft. Surely you jest.

Cerberus

@Vitaly Nice rate.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:01 PM

Actually, @Cerberus you could test it by booting a linux live CD and using the drives to move some data around. That would take the software out of the equation and let you verify that your hardware is all kosher.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Is that likely? It was the same on my previous XP install, which came from another disk. And I have the same version of XP on my laptop, which has no problem.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Hmm yes, good idea.

The only thing is that the drive can work without problems for days, then suddenly it cannot stay connected for longer than a few seconds.

So it's hard to troubleshoot.

The pattern is elusive.

Gigili

@Robusto Actually, I haven't seen anyone facing an issue on XP. It's really shocking. Ö

Cerberus

Oh, and do you remember how my XP installation was extremely slow from CD? From that I concluded that perhaps my CD player was broken, but that could also be the mobo. Especially considering that the player usually works fine; it is only during OS installation that I had this weird thing.

Gigili

What's the problem exactly?

Cerberus

My USB drives keep disconnecting.

Vitaly

2:07 PM

@Cerberus I see you there. But the speed's ridiculously low.

Cerberus

They both do it on my desktop, but not on my laptop. And they tick. It's not all the times, and often switching ports helps; but it can happen on any port (there is no "good" port).

@Vitaly Yes it's working!

I've paused all other t's, but still the same.

1 (1).

Gigili

Doesn't it have something to do with the USB ports?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Vit @Rob @KitFox new active war.

Cerberus

@Gigili The problem can occur with any port. Sometime one port works better, then another port.

Currently the left front port works.

But a few days ago it didn't.

Gigili