The Sphinx's Lair

user189275

12:54 AM

@GarethMcCaughan ?

user189275

Okay, I can't solve the last of the Cryptic Clue Chat Chains, so I'm just posting one half joke independent Chat Cryptic Clue (I tried with the last one for 3 hours straight, and 1 hour more loosely, and didn't found anything sane)

Deusovi

Yeah, I haven't been able to solve it either.

user189275

Repost CCC: Left angle, ! Angle upside down are. (5)

Deusovi

Oh! Apparently several have been posted since last time I checked.

...What? That doesn't grammatically make sense.

I mean, I guess it doesn't have to but typically cryptic clues use tricky "surface readings".

user189275

Yeah, for some reasons, and there is a very hilarious (but previously used) red herring.

Alconja

1:01 AM

Solution to the last one (Blasphemous tattoo merger is going down): SINK (Blasphemous = sin, tattoo = ink, merged, def: going down)

(Gareth had solved it, and pointed out some of the grammatical issues, but didn't post the solution because he wanted the "chain" to continue, rather than it turning into "tennis")

Deusovi

Oh, I was looking at the wrong one. Oh well.

user189275

Oh SINK. So trivial :(

Deusovi

Did Gareth post another one?

Alconja

No

(see my edit) :)

Deusovi

Ah, alright. Mind if I pick it back up then?

Or are you gonna make another?

user189275

1:03 AM

I suppose Alconja should make one.

Alconja

Wasn't going to right now, so you can take the ball

Deusovi

Alright! Here's one of my two favorite clues I've written:

CCCC: 7 - (6 - 9) = 10, maybe (4)

Alconja

(you need to prefix with CCCC so it's easier to find)

user189275

Zero :P

Deusovi

Nope.

@ArbitraryKangaroo: Your cryptic clue is valid according to the rules of cryptics, right?

user189275

1:07 AM

@Deusovi Yeah, I guess so. What's the rule ?

Deusovi

You... guess so?

Do you know how cryptic clues work?

user189275

Yeah, solved a few, now I think it don't fits. Okay, here's a hint: It's a Brush total r CCC

Rubio

I never did get a ruling on my "Inner monologue is bothering you. (7)" Was that one acceptable?

Deusovi

I never saw the solution to that one.

Rubio

STALKER. monologue=talk (def); bothering you=stalker (def); inner:__(TALK)__

yeah that.

Deusovi

1:11 AM

@ArbitraryKangaroo: STOP.

user189275

@Deusovi Rubio posted exactly that, didn't he ?

Deusovi

But no, that's definitely not a valid cryptic clue. The wordplay doesn't give you the entire answer.

user189275

You found the answer ? Yeah, now I am sure it's not a CC.

Deusovi

It should be possible to reach the answer from both the wordplay and the definition independently.

user189275

Okay, the answer is LIAR, and the word anagrams to "Short Brutal‌".

Rubio

1:12 AM

hmm. ok, I guess I don't fully understand them then.

Deusovi

You can divide every cryptic clue into two parts: the definition part and the wordplay part.

Sometimes there will be a connector word like "is" or "of".

One side will be a definition of the word, acceptable in a regular crossword.

user189275

@Deusovi BTW, When you are posting up the CM ?

Deusovi

The other side will be the wordplay part, where the word is clued differently, usually with anagrams, initials, homophones, or some other form of wordplay.

user189275

(When the others would post the pre-meta puzzles ?)

Rubio

Got it. I think. :) In fairness, I did want to pass my turn hehe

Then I felt bad for dropping the chain

Alconja

1:15 AM

@Deusovi ...but pure wordplay like your current CCCC are ok, if you "?"/"maybe"/etc them, yeah?

Deusovi

The wordplay part has "instruction words" in it in most cases - for instance, "broken" clues anagramming, or "at first" clues initial letters. (It could also be an alternate definition - for instance, "Scooter was blue" for "MOPED" would be a valid double-definition clue.)

@Alconja Who said my current one was pure wordplay?

Lord of dark

Just saying "Hi", I don't want to interrupt you guys

Deusovi

Hey LoD!

Alconja

:) OK. So, your current one aside, when/how is it acceptable to "break" the rules you stated above?

user189275

@Deusovi This and This ?

Deusovi

1:18 AM

Who said I broke any of those rules? c;

Typically though, breaking those rules isn't allowed unless the clue is still fair. Ideally, the clue should still have two paths to the solution, and one of those should be the definition. Basically, don't break them unless you know what you're doing.

I've only broken them for one clue before - the "trip in bar room" clue for Chess Fortnight. I figured that was still fair, even though it was a nonstandard clue type.

@ArbitraryKangaroo The puzzles are nearly done. One person hasn't responded, so I'm making a substitute puzzle for them.

Alconja

No, wasn't implying you were breaking rules here, just wanted to clarify if/when/how it was acceptable, generally.. Or should they 99% of time be that normal straight+wordplay style?

user189275

@Deusovi When ?

Deusovi

99% of the time, they should be straight+wordplay.

(Order doesn't matter, of course.)

@ArbitraryKangaroo They should be done soon. We're hoping to post them this weekend.

Alconja

Ok, you can pretty much scratch my last question, just fully re-read your last comment, which pretty much answers it

Deusovi

(To jog your memory, the answer to the "Trip in bar room (5)" clue was "SPACE". It's a triple definition - "spacing out", the space bar, and space to move around. I was hesitant to post that one.)

Alconja

1:21 AM

Hmm.. weird... getting some lag in my messages there.. so my last few comments feel very out of order. :)

Deusovi

But yeah. Don't break those rules unless you really know what you're doing and you're 100% sure that it's a fair clue. Ideally you shouldn't break them at all with standalone clues.

Lord of dark

Is it a bug or lot of users has empty profil pic ?

Deusovi

@Lordofdark: I think that's an issue on your end. It's fine for me.

Lord of dark

Nah, I'm pretty sure it's a new hidden puzzle

It's so hard to earn rep since I don't come often : I can't first answer an easy/medium puzzle and I don't have time to spend in very long puzzle...

So I just enjoy solving puzzles without thinking about rep...

Alconja

@Deusovi So, the term "maybe" in cryptic clues, based on my googling, just implies that there's an additional layer of lateral thinking involved, not that it necessary breaks the "core" rules??

Deusovi

1:37 AM

@Alconja It could either be part of the wordplay or the definition. If part of the definition, it means "this is one example". For instance, "Dachshund, maybe" could clue "DOG" (in a straight crossword, or as part of the definition of a cryptic).

Or if part of the wordplay, it could be any number of things.

Alconja

Hmmm, ok.

Wait... is it EVEN?

Deusovi

Yep, that's it!

Alconja

(def: 10, maybe; SEVEN - (SIX - NINE) => SEVEN - (SX) => EVEN)

:) very cool

Deusovi

Hm, not quite.

You missed one thing.

(Correct answer, partially incorrect reasoning.)

Jonathan Allan

VI - IX ?

Deusovi

1:42 AM

Too far, @JonathanAllan.

SIX - IX is just S

Alconja

Ahh. ofc

Deusovi

then SEVEN minus that is EVEN

Jonathan Allan

heh I had tried with RN :/

Alconja

Guess that means i need to come up with another... unless you wanted to take the ball @JonathanAllan?

Jonathan Allan

uh

I have nothing prepared :p

Deusovi

1:49 AM

Then prepare something! :D

Alconja

Ok, how about this one:

CCCC: "Strange interjection and a split millennial (3)"

Possibly needs a "?" on the end... not 100% with cryptic rules yet...

Jonathan Allan

well is it "and literally so"?

or is there a straight definition?

Alconja

No

Jonathan Allan

ok

Deusovi

(Question marks are used to indicate strange definitions - like "Mechanical puzzle caused mental block?" for "RUBIK'S CUBE")

Alconja

1:52 AM

Has a straight and a wordplay, is not strange, so no ? then

(though still not 100% sure it doesn't break some rule, so i'll be interested in feedback post solving)

Rubio

it's not MOM is it

Alconja

nope

Deusovi

Nah, no definition there

Jonathan Allan

Is it "ODD" def: strange. Interjection O half a millennium is 500 which is D

Alconja

Your mum isn't strange?

Deusovi

1:55 AM

Ooh, that's definitely it. I like it!

Alconja

@JonathanAllan winner! :)

Jonathan Allan

:)

Deusovi

Maybe not entirely kosher, but certainly still fair - I don't see any problem with it!

Jonathan Allan

will be a couple of mn...

Alconja

Thought it'd drop quickly after EVEN :P

Rubio

1:56 AM

well. DD is the millenium split

so yeah that's it

I like it

Deusovi

Oh, one thing - indirect anagrams are not allowed in cryptics. By that I mean something like "Unusually tough monster (5)" cluing HYDRA, by anagram of HARDY (tough). Anything to be anagrammed must be verbatim. (Reversal clues or other similar ones are fair game though.)

Alconja

Ok, good to know

Jonathan Allan

CCCC: Accumulates 10 second adjustments (4)

@Deusovi English newspapers do sometime have the odd indirect anagram, but their indirectness is usually alluded to.

*sometimes

Deusovi

Yeah, I do see occasional publishers that allow them. I highly recommend against it though - they're not fun to solve unless they're really clever.

Jonathan Allan

yeah, those writers are pretty good at it

Rubio

2:03 AM

@GentlePurpleRain Why is your comment on the Koffka words a comment?

Please make it an answer :)

Gareth McCaughan

@JonathanAllan perhaps NETS (anagram of TEN S)? though that's awkwardly close to being ... an indirect anagram.

Deusovi

Yeah, not a fan of that one.

Rubio

@GentlePurpleRain I was going to give a +25 bounty if two people split the answering on that one. I'll let you and @Deusovi figure out where to put it, and I'm sure neither of you care a whit about the rep, but fair's fair.

Deusovi

(If that's the answer of course.)

Jonathan Allan

@GarethMcCaughan correct - it is not indirect it has an indicator

Deusovi

2:09 AM

Huh?

Jonathan Allan

adjustments indicates anagram.

Deusovi

Anagrams are always indicated.

Jonathan Allan

10s = tens is certainly less indirect that RN

Deusovi

By "indirect" I mean "word or phrase being anagrammed is not directly in the clue".

RN?

Gareth McCaughan

damn, I suppose I have to make up another one now

Jonathan Allan

2:10 AM

IX

Deusovi

Oh, roman numerals. That one wasn't an anagram though.

Jonathan Allan

yeah, it's kind of like bits & pieces to go from 10 to ten though, hardly that far fetched :p

Deusovi

Sure, and it would be fine if it were just bits and pieces.

Gareth McCaughan

OK, I'm going to hell for this, but:

Deusovi

But for anagrams, you have to include the phrase verbatim.

Oh no.

Gareth McCaughan

2:12 AM

CCCC: One who might grab model's ass (5)

Rubio

oh my.

Jonathan Allan

Like: Confused Southern pots halts (5)...??

Deusovi

Yeah, that wouldn't be allowed.

Jonathan Allan

u think that's fine but not 10 seconds

That kind of thing appears all the time!

Deusovi

Not within anagrams! If it said "flipped" instead of "confused" then it would be a reversal clue, and it would be fine.

Jonathan Allan

2:15 AM

Well I've seen it enough

Deusovi

Really? I've never seen it in a good cryptic, and I've done a lot of them.

Jonathan Allan

Not so often in the broadsheets maybe

Deusovi

Hm? Broadsheets?

Gareth McCaughan

upmarket higherbrow newspapers: Times, Guardian, Independent

(oh, and the Telegraph)

Jonathan Allan

Times / Guardian / Observer / Independent / Financial Times (non tabloid)

Gareth McCaughan

2:17 AM

as distinct from (1) tabloid newspapers and (2) other places where you might find cryptic crosswords

Jonathan Allan

Ooops Torygraph :p

Deusovi

Ah, alright - I'm not British.

Gareth McCaughan

amusing that we both somehow forgot to list the Telegraph among the broadsheet newspapers :-)

Jonathan Allan

^^

I didn't forget the FT - which is probably the most broadsheet :)

Gareth McCaughan

yeah, clearly my brow is too low, or something

Jonathan Allan

2:19 AM

and their crosswords are HARD

Deusovi

enigma.puzzlers.org/guide/cryptics2

Source on the ban of indirect anagrams.

Jonathan Allan

sure but ten is not a not a synonym for 10 it is just 10 spelled out

if I'd used 12 for "DOZEN" then...

it's starting to be a bit too far

Gareth McCaughan

may I gently suggest that very little enlightenment is likely to come from arguing at length over whether it's legitimate to use "10" to indicate "TEN" as part of an anagram?

Jonathan Allan

:p

Rubio

No, let's make this an epic debate like what was going on in the castle bars puzzle between people who have solved it and people who wildly assert it's not solvable.

Deusovi

2:22 AM

Sure, maybe (although I still find that a little sketchy - typically the exact letters should be in the clue). But "second" is also an issue. It'd work in a bits-and-pieces clue, but not in an anagram clue. And in your clue, "S" was part of the anagram fodder.

Rubio

FLAME ON.

Gareth McCaughan

the usual mutually face-saving thing it to say something like "arguably not strictly Ximenean" and get on with life

*is

like, I dunno, solving my stupid CCCC clue or something

Rubio

I'm still trying to think of anything cryptic that fits Gareth's clue

GentlePurpleRain

@Deusovi From @Rubio's insistence that it be in an answer, I suspect it is correct. Why don't you just add it to your answer. No point in having 2 partial answers.

Deusovi

Yeah, I'm thinking about it.

Jonathan Allan

2:23 AM

already trying :p

Deusovi

@GentlePurpleRain Alright, sounds good!

Rubio

I can think of a few that fit but aren't at all cryptic hehe

Gareth McCaughan

@Rubio it is entirely possible that one of the ones you have thought of is in fact more cryptic than you think

Rubio

maybe

Deusovi

Got it!

(model) T + RUMP.

Jonathan Allan

2:25 AM

ahahaha

Rubio

hmm

Deusovi

Very cheeky, Gareth. (pun definitely intended)

Rubio

I was trying to twist CHAIR into something that fit, having abandoned TRUMP

Nicely done

Deusovi

CCCC: Trained to weave stiff footwear (8)

Gareth McCaughan

@Deusovi yup, that's right. (So, going to hell for three reasons. Rude clue, gratuitous politics, and around these parts I suspect "model" -> "T" isn 't too familiar.)

Jonathan Allan

2:30 AM

SCHOOLED: S-H-O-E and -C-O-L-D

Deusovi

Yep! "Weaved" together.

Jonathan Allan

2:42 AM

CCCC: Featured in wooden impish jeans (5)

Alconja

DENIM

Jonathan Allan

(easy peasy)

yep

Alconja

:P

Jonathan Allan

I was already typing easy peasy as I knew someone would get it quickly :)

Alconja

If I'm using a "maybe" hint to indicate "an example of", I assume it needs to go next to the straight?

Deusovi

2:45 AM

Yep. At the end of the definition.

Alconja

I.e. "<wordplay> + <example>, maybe" is ok, but "<example> + <wordplay>, maybe" is not

Gareth McCaughan

more precisely, it needs to go next to whatever it is that you're giving (or referring to) an example of

Deusovi

^

Alconja

cool. thought so...

Rubio

Thanks @GentlePurpleRain and @Deusovi for finishing that Koffka one up - I enjoyed creating it and I hope it was fun to solve.

Jonathan Allan

2:49 AM

@Deusovi as an example Sunday Times had "Fish gone rotten in baskets (6,4)" which definitely breaks the synonym anagram rule

Deusovi

What's the answer to that one?

Jonathan Allan

Conger Eels

as Rolf Harris might have said "Can you see what it is yet?!"

Deusovi

That one's acceptable.

It's not an indirect anagram.

Jonathan Allan

way more convoluted

Deusovi

The only anagram happening is "gone --> onge".

Sure, but the issue isn't the convolutedness. The issue is the unfairness. Indirect anagrams are almost always unfair.

I didn't know the word "creel" before, but that clue doesn't anagram "creels" so it's fine.

Jonathan Allan

2:52 AM

onge?

Deusovi

It's not a word. It's just being inserted into "CREELS".

"C(ONGE)REELS"

Jonathan Allan

lol

Deusovi

Hm?

Jonathan Allan

there is a space too

I would say anagram

Deusovi

Sure, and? Spaces are ignored.

(After all, you're not actually entering a space into a box.)

Okay, how is adding a space an anagram?

Jonathan Allan

2:54 AM

true

two words creels and gone become two words conger and eels - it's an anagram, but yes it is "in"

Deusovi

No, "creels" is not an anagram. An insertion is different from an anagram - the clue says "in baskets", and grammatically the only anagram fodder is "gone".

You do realize that anagram clues hint at what exactly needs to be anagrammed, right?

Jonathan Allan

^ """but yes it is "in""""

Deusovi

Also, is everything okay? You seem a lot different today.

Jonathan Allan

yeah, I am on painkillers from an op could be affecting me...

Deusovi

Ah, alright. Hope you feel better soon.

Jonathan Allan

2:57 AM

Codine might not agree with me a bit ??

thanks

am I being weird?

hope I'm not being offensive!

Deusovi

No, not at all!

You just seemed a bit different from usual, and I couldn't quite pinpoint what it was.

Jonathan Allan

probably these blasted drugs

but was dental surgery so pain is pretty horrid

...and the drugs are strong

Deusovi

Ouch, that sounds awful. You should really get some rest - maybe watch TV or something?

Jonathan Allan

was just browsing for films actually!

any recommendations?

Deusovi

Hm, I don't watch many movies. If you want something lighthearted, Airplane is always funny.

Alconja

3:02 AM

Not sure if this is breaking rules... but I think it's ok:

CCCC: Discard arrangement excludes "Sun God 101", maybe (6)

Jonathan Allan

heh "Jive-ass dude don't got no brains anyhow!"

Alconja

(sorry for the delay, was in a meeting)

Deusovi

If you don't mind cartoons, I recommend Gravity Falls. It's surprisingly good, even though it's on Disney Channel. The basic premise is that two twins are sent away from home over the summer to live with their great uncle who runs a cheesy tourist trap. Then they notice actual supernatural things happening...

Jonathan Allan

Yeah I like cartoons, animation & family films

not free on my subscription though :(

Deusovi

Aw :c

Steven Universe is also good

Jonathan Allan

3:11 AM

£1.89 per episode and people say only half of each series is up (10 not 20)

Also not included...

stack reader

5:02 AM

Would using the expression "I don't have to take this crap" in a riddle be seen as offensive?

Rubio

not to me, but I can only speak for myself.

user230888

@Deusovi As a bonus, there are also ciphers in the end where the names show.

Alconja

Yeah, I don't think that's offensive either (assuming it's actual riddle "content" as opposed to being directed at a particular user)

stack reader

OK, I'll give it a try then. Look forward to it :P

Lets hope there are no downvote trigger happy folks on today. >.>

Rubio

5:18 AM

Dude

I've been getting downvoted all day today on stuff, for no reason.

In the last half hour someone just downvoted my answer on puzzling.stackexchange.com/questions/45677/…

it's the accepted answer, there's not a thing wrong with it. actually that entire puzzle's voting makes little sense to me, but whatever - everyone is giving votes to the dude who basically said "yeah, there's an accepted answer already, but I wanted to show this image".

it's gotten almost 4x the votes as my answer, and ... like I said .. someone just downvoted mine out of the blue. hehe

people. are. weird.

oh yeah. and puzzling.stackexchange.com/questions/45506/… hasn't been active in 3 days. someone chose this morning to downvote my question. not a clue.

stack reader

oh someone put an image! nice, I really wanted to see it yesterday... err I mean. sorry XD I didn't upvote him I swear >.>

Rubio

there's 3 good images out there now. (OP supplied one, which I put in my answer, but it was bad. I think i lost votes to the other dude because of it)

the ones by N. Owad are really cool

stack reader

5:34 AM

darn it, why does my riddles always turn out so suggestive lol.... If I name my riddle "I'm always horny but so lonely." I feel like I will get downvoted into the ground lol...

Alconja

probably

stack reader

Title or no, it's still gonna be in my riddle though... I wish people would be more open minded and not so quick to judge.... it is a very clever hint, or so I would like to think it is.

Oh well, I will just give it a go. My main objective is to make others have fun so, who cares about pixelated points....(ok... I do...)

Rubio

"Most prefer with fruits, but others prefer my beverage." looks like it may be missing a word. is it intended to read that way?

stack reader

6:38 AM

it does feel kinda weird. I was trying to not give too much hint. but ended up like that.

Rubio

Huh. I didn't actually expect that to be right, it felt like a stretch.

stack reader

really? it all fit though.

Rubio

Not all beetles are horned, by a long shot

I figured you were just going for all things beetles, with the Beatles and the dung beetles and whatever

so gave it a shot

stack reader

AH! I forgot to add my Volkswagen hint.... oh well...

Rubio

Lol. That would have been a pretty dead giveaway

Oh I forgot to randomly downvote you. Hang on . . .

(j/k)

stack reader

6:47 AM

Lately I have only been making riddles... Making math/logic one is more fun, but take so much work and always end up with loopholes or unexpected alternative answers...

Rubio

I've done mainly word and number patterns. The last one I did, I added in a bit of a riddle for good measure; in looking for a non-obvious name for it, I found a great way to tie in the name I eventually used and make it an extra challenge beyond just finding the pattern. I really enjoyed putting that together.

I'm about halfway through creating my first pure riddle. I hope it doesn't suck.

stack reader

Usually I make a riddle by thinking about 2 or 3 clever things that fit with the same word. Then I go find fillers on google by looking for expressions involving that word. Then somehow makes hints that unintentionally ends up being suggestive as hell.

Rubio

8:03 AM

A little long, then? hehe

stack reader

is it something like the atari? I cannot match most of the hints but I just can't shake that answer from my head lol

Rubio

There's no shortage of hints, obviously ;) I'm pretty sure when you've got it, or at least got close enough to it, you'll know.

stack reader

8:28 AM

so.... I'm wrong? XD

ah, someone got it. makes sense. I still like my atari though XD

Rubio

:)

IAmInPLS

9:37 AM

I'm a bit lost

No I'm fine

Sorry for that bipolar moment

Sid

10:51 AM

@GarethMcCaughan So, that's your 3rd puzzle. :P

Someday, I am going to make a puzzle compiling all your chat puzzles..

Alenanno

11:09 AM

@Deusovi Here?

Deusovi

3:13 PM

@Alenanno I'm here now. Why?

Alenanno

@Deusovi Oh I wanted to know if you wanted a list for those colored words before sending the edit, but I already did. :P

Matt

3:28 PM

@IAmInPLS your wordplay is bugging me

I see that all the right words have the letters I and E,

but that's it

OMG

IAmInPLS

@Matt Sudden realization?

Matt

yes

thanks for your help! :P

IAmInPLS

@Matt Haha you found it! I just added the wiki link

It was interesting seeing you solving it right here though ;-)

Matt

I was counting the locations of all the Es and Is

thinking about how weird it was that only the last 2 had E first.

IAmInPLS

Good job anyway! Are you an English native speaker? I'm just wondering if this grammar rule is 'famous'. In France, we don't learn it, it is something I was lucky to stumble across and make a puzzle out of it