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12:00 AM
¯\_( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)_/¯
...thanks >_>
welcome! ^_^
Q: Shortest λ-term that nobody can prove if it terminates or not

DokkatPost a term on the untyped λ-calculus that nobody can prove that this term terminates. If someone proves either that it terminates or that it doesn't, you lose the post. Term with shortest length on the binary lambda calculus wins. You can use any λ-calculus interpreter you want. This one looks ...

New pet peeve: <SCRIPT> tag, not <script>. >_>
12:03 AM
This is actually sort of a neat idea?
yeah, but hard to do right
Have we had a proof-based cops-and-robbers?
like all pop-cons
@Lynn no? 10/10 idea though
It suffers from the same problems as… every other cops-and-robbers, I suppose. Thanks, Curry–Howard. :<
@Quill Make starting the SE-Chat terminal thing show a couple of the lastest messages.
12:05 AM
(Mostly, it’s just too easy to construct statements only you know how to prove)
@Lynn Curry-Howard?
nvm google
@himarmjr open an issue pls :)
Types are propositions! Programs are proofs!
@Quill ... SO MUCH ISSUE
you're my beta tester... get used to it ;p
12:12 AM
@Quill 1 more thing, soon to be issueified, replies from in the chat viewer. And message numbers listed at the message.
Also, what does the /pingable command do? Specifically how does it sort them?
I think I just left it how the server sorts them
uh, I can't remember how it sorts them
12:41 AM
@easterly irk @himarmjr What's with the name?
5 hours ago, by Himarm 2017
but I support Himarm's quest for mod 2017
I wonder if we'll ever one day know the meaning behind yingluck.
12:55 AM
It probably means something really deep and profound.
Haha thanks for the pity SO upvote. I assume it was someone in here. :P
@AlexA. np
I wasn't implying that you should...
(it just got another)
But yeah, thanks. Hopefully someone will answer it eventually.
@AlexA. that was me, I thought I had upvoted it the first time
Oh, okay. Well thank you <3
1:04 AM
Holy shit...
I just found 6700 lines of python that I wrote when I was 15. 0_0
So like yesterday?
Oh wait no, you're 18
@AlexA. ಠ_ಠ
Oh, I almost forgot...
Almost forgot what?
Graduation perks update: Community ads were inadvertently overlooked and the CMs will get on that soon. Our site-specific text is under review and we'll get a design once we get updated text.
1:07 AM
> Community ads were inadvertently overlooked
> PPCG were inadvertently overlooked
^ sounds all too familiar
PPCG: 5 years from beta to graduation, 5 years from graduation to design. Let's make it happen.
Is the community ads thing available yet? You said it would be available within the week but it's been nearly two weeks. — Helka Homba Mar 7 at 2:51
Jeez cut SE some slack
I'm in no hurry, I'm just reciting information.
1:08 AM
No, you're fine.
Weeks -> Months
FWIW I really wouldn't expect design to come for a while because SE specifically said they'd roll out our "not a Q&A" requests with it
I just said that...
> we'll get a design once we get updated text.
@quartata I am kinda peeved at them for seemingly constantly ignoring our site. Though I'm not sure it's a usual occurrence on other SE sites
@AlexA. I'm being a little more direct since people seem to be getting upset about the amount of time it's taking without understanding that it's unreasonable to expect it to be quick
We asked for a lot of stuff
1:12 AM
:D for loops work in Cheddar! Only problem is they error every iteration rather than execute the code...
> work
Aye. s/work/"work"/ :P
nvm found the problem
cheddar> for(var i:=0;i<5;i=i+1){print i}
@Upgoat there's a hole in the cheese
This is Cheddar, dammit, not Swiss! Make dairy great again!
1:15 AM
@Upgoat What's the difference between := and = there?
@quartata = is reassignment. := is used with assignment to specify the var is not strictly-typed. If I wanted to define the var as a string I'd do var i :String = foo rather than var i := foo
@Upgoat That's what I figured, but ew var i :String = foo
That's not so bad, kind of Rust-like
Why not String i := foo? Or var:String i := foo
@AlexA. I'm more taking offense at the :String = part
That looks really ugly imo
1:18 AM
I think that's what Rust does
It’s ML-like
let x : int = 3
@quartata String i := foo is hard to parse because cheddar grammars are CFG so no lookahead.
Rust is exactly that ^, -space between x and :, +semicolon at the end
I'd be fine with it if it wasn't for the var x := foo also being legal
The two together look really weird
I could change it if it's that bad
1:19 AM
@Upgoat What’s the elevator pitch for Cheddar?
var str :String = "asdf"
var x := 0
That kind of thing
@Lynn idk I've kinda described it in docs.cheddar.vihan.org
@quartata well you could match it up:
var str : String = "asdf"
var x   :=            0
^ anyone else see the yellow overcoat?
<--- is still researching the domain market for some reason. Apparently app.uk is available.
@HelkaHomba yes
@PhiNotPi can you even buy .uk domains?
1:25 AM
@Upgoat no
Someone with $70,000 to spare– please buy this: goat.com
I can buy .co.uk though
For .uk domains, I need a physical mailing address within the United Kingdom, which might take more than $20 to acquire.
Significantly more, even.
CMC: write an alternative .shift function which doesn't modify the original array, but acts like it does
@PhiNotPi you can get mailing addresses from like shipping companies
they let you hire overseas addresses so you can get mail that is nationally limited
For under $20?
1:32 AM
On one hand, I think app.uk is a really great unclaimed premium domain, on the other hand, it costs ~75 times as much to register ($7.46) as my previous investments combined.
PS I still think it's hilarious to use the word "investments" to refer to ten cents.
@Geobits it usually depends on the size of the mail you receive
I just bookmarked this chat. I'm never getting work done again...
@HelkaHomba yes
@bkul Work is overrated anyway
@Upgoat ._.
> overlooked
I and other people must have mentioned them at least 7 times before giving up
I get work done while I have this chatroom open.... it's just less work
1:38 AM
@bkul I think most people just leave it open forever. Then there's no need to bookmark it ;)
I figured out why app.uk is available. The domain app.co.uk was registered before the date of 29 October 2013, which means that the .co.uk domain owner has the reserved right to register the corresponding .uk domain, until 10 June 2019, where app.uk becomes available to everyone.
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ add #!/usr/bin/env node to the top of yup.js and rename it to yup so then you would be able to do ./yup foo bar
I'm on windows
wtf is the hashtag for
1:47 AM
you should use package.json rather than putting your node_modules on GH
Idk how to use package.json, so eh
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ I'll take a look later.
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ just go to the dir and do npm init
Uploading your node_modules is a very bad idea
1:51 AM
that's why github's preinitialised gitignore for Node is great
I didn't know about any of this stuff
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ Windows doesn't read shebang lines at all AFAIK
So tl;dr don't worry about it
@AlexA. what are they for?
On Linux (because who the hell else cares about them?) they designate what program runs the file
On Windows it's dictated by the file extension
Mac can do either
@AlexA. hello there
1:56 AM
@Doorknob >_>
What's an entry point? in npm init
@Geobits Do you enjoy Dickens?
Granted, you have to care about shebangs as a Linux user, Scooby @Door.
@HelkaHomba That seems random, but generally yes.
2:02 AM
@AlexA. i'm a linux user, and i generally don't use/forget to use shebangs and just explicitly name the program that i want to use
@Maltysen But ./foo is so much easier than bar foo
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

DokkatShortest program with unknown halting status Rules Post a term on the binary λ-calculus (BLC) whose termination is unknown. If someone proves that your term does or doesn't terminate, you entry is disqualified. The term with the smallest number of bits on the BLC wins. Don't forget to also ...

2:07 AM
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ the command to start your code, you should leave that blank
@Upgoat okay
@Upgoat I added the package.json, but you said something about a .gitignore. Could you elaborate?
@Geobits and poetic bears?
@HelkaHomba I'm surprised you even feel the need to ask.
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ gitignore is basically files that you want in your project, but you don't want to be in your repo
like modules that node installs or debug logs
oh, okay. any tutorials on how to use it?
2:16 AM
basically each line is a file path
It might seem a little childish, but GitHub's git tutorial is great: try.github.io/levels/1/challenges/1
wait a .gitignore doesn't need a name?
files with no "name" and just an extension are hidden files
.gitignore is the name
okay, so I've added node_modules to the gitignore, but it still shows up in my repo. what am I doing wrong?
git remove node_modules
2:21 AM
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ you need to manually remove node_modules. But when you add all and commit next time it should then be ignored
Okay, cool! I think everything is "proper" now
thanks guys
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ oh, sorry for not responding, I didn't see your ping :|
it's fine, I figured it out. the repo looks okay now right?
2:28 AM
(just relized the pun)
oh, I thought it was intended
2:40 AM
I've been working on what I think will be my favorite challenge yet:
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

MegoCapture the Flag Do you ever wonder why we're here? Objective Capture the enemy team's flag and return it to your base. The first team to 3 captures wins the round. The player with the most wins across all (number TBD) rounds wins the game. Teams There will be two teams each round. Teams wil...

oh hey apparently HyperDev are sending me swag
where's the meta consensus for flags for programs?
A: On "interactive" answers and other special conditions

J BMy basic guideline would be "as the problem statement says". Which is mostly to mean it's allowed to explicitly override anything it wants from what I'm about to say next. Actions to invoke For test-case/IO programs, I like it better when the whole invocation is possible as a single line, thro...

I should really bookmark this stuff...
2:50 AM
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

NachtImplement an HTTP Tunnel I'm bored at work and stuck behind a draconian proxy. They can take my other ports but they can never take my port 80 freedom! Help me get all the internets! This is a code-golf challenge. requirements a single web page that processes GET and POST data and produces...

@quartata It's unreasonable to expect that everything we want will be done quickly. It's perfectly reasonable to expect some kind of status update more often than once every three months. I'm perfectly ok with everything taking a while, as long as the communication channels are open, and we all know the status of the project. What I'm not ok with is us not being given updates at all in three months - it makes us feel ignored, and we have no way to know if they're actually working on it.
"Inadvertently overlooked" (and similar phrases) happens way too much for PPCG.
If the CMs are spread too thinly to be able to keep track of everything that needs to be done for all the sites and provide regular updates, perhaps it's time SE hires a few more.
I think traditionally providing regular updates isn't part of what CMs do. I don't know of any sites other than Meta.SE on which the CMs are actively engaged with the community.
2:56 AM
Regular updates should be expected during transitional times like this, though.
also the CMs will get involved on non-Trilogy sites for things that they're required or when the mods are out of their depth
I just posted a blog article about my forays into the domain market: blog.phinotpi.com/2016/06/07/domaineering
Do we really need updates though? I mean, we know that SO is working at a steady pace, and its not like an update does anything but sate our curiosity
When a site says "hey, we need these big changes in order to function" and the CMs say "ok we will work on it", they should provide regular updates. That's just professionalism and common courtesy.
@NathanMerrill Communication is vital. It lets us know that we have not been forgotten (like we have been so many times already)
2:58 AM
@NathanMerrill Not for every little thing, no. But for something that should take place "within a couple weeks", something would be nice before three months' time.
Oh, I'm sure it'll happen in 6-8 weeks
Regular updates and communication are especially vital now, since we've apparently been forgotten yet again.
@Geobits forgetting about community ads is one thing. I agree with discontent about that
PPCG doesn't really need CM feedback per say, right now. What it needs is for the design team to do a site design, besides that, this site is graduated, the stats look good, the userbase loves the site, what more do the CMs need to say?
but I'm honestly fine if we don't any communication besides the "hey, here's this awesome thing"
2:59 AM
> "Just like you guys, we're waiting on the design team"
Communication is crucial, but there's no reason to do updates if there's nothing to report
@Quill but they did kinda forget that we were supposed to get our community ads for a couple months
@Quill Tell every boss ever that :P
@PhiNotPi Your website is beautiful, btw
@Upgoat and they communicated to the mods about it, and the mods handed that information to us
a boss has a reason for updates. He needs to manage employees
3:01 AM
@AlexA. Don't compliment me, compliment the Wordpress theme designer.
@Quill after a while though
PPCG would like updates, but it certainly doesn't need them like a boss does
@WordpressThemeDesigner PhiNotPi's site looks beautiful
@NathanMerrill If I learned one thing in the military, it's that updates (even those that don't add much/anything) improve morale. Leaving people in the dark for months on end causes anxiety and impatience, no matter what.
Especially when it's been admitted that we've been "forgotten/overlooked" before.
@NathanMerrill I would argue that it's the mark of a good boss to provide updates to those under them, particularly when thinigs have been requested of the boss.
3:02 AM
PPCG would really benefit from regular updates. A few more "oops we forgot about you guys" events, and then we'll need them, if SE wants us to have any faith in their system.
SE are trying to work on their communication, in the last few months, it's been getting worse. We're missing podcasts, sites changes are being scheduled a very long way a way, etc.
I just mean that in general though
true, updates certainly does keep morale
They are a bit understaffed though, considering there's less CMs than people in this room right now
and there's like a billion SE sites and like 4 billion proposals on Area51
Hell, I could use a new job ;)
3:04 AM
10 mins ago, by Mego
If the CMs are spread too thinly to be able to keep track of everything that needs to be done for all the sites and provide regular updates, perhaps it's time SE hires a few more.
@Optimizer if you ever make a wordpress site you've gotta use this theme :P
(that was a joke, SE-NSA. no way i'd take a cm job even if offered)
@PhiNotPi I like your analogy of "rope across the river"
if you want to talk to a CM and ask them to take a look at an outstanding change to PPCG, feel free to use the Contact Us form or most of them have their emails in their profiles
@Geobits y? ;-;
3:09 AM
@NathanMerrill Thanks. I think I read something pretty similar somewhere else, but I don't remember the economic terms that they used to describe it.
@AlexA. That wasn't meant to be a jab at SE in particular. I just feel I'm not meant to be in a job with that much public-facing work. I can handle people fairly well when necessary, but not as my main function.
15 community managers for 156 sites. How in the hell does SE think that will work?
@Mego I don't think its actually correlated to the number of sites, but the number of users
if I was SE, I'd be more concerned with the overarching community than individual sites
but that said, it leads to situations like this
@Mego because CMs aren't supposed to handhold everything, that's what we have protems, mods and privileged users for
@Geobits I figured as much. But FWIW I think you'd make a good CM.
3:11 AM
@AlexA. Thanks. I probably would for a week or two. Then the urge to kill would start creeping in :P
hard as nails and sarcastic. makes for a good CM ;)
Start? :P
@Geobits I think that's already crept in through Marky :P
See? Now that's an idea. Marky for CM.
He responds very quickly, even if it's not what you want to hear.
what could possibly go wrong except a couple of dead goats
3:14 AM
Goats are prey animals, so I'm not sure that's even considered "going wrong" to most people.
@Quill While that is true, there is a direct correlation between the number of sites and the amount of work the CMs have to do. SE is clearly understaffed, based on the 2401+ bugs with no resolution.
Those are handled by Devs, actually
Do CMs handle bugs? To be completely candid, I really have no idea what (beside the public-facing part that we actually see) a CM job entails.
@Mego Restrict to a zero or positive score and you're down to 149.
3:16 AM
@Quill I was also trying to point out that SE is understaffed across the board.
@Doorknob wait never mind I lied; I did that search wrong
@Geobits cleanup, crowd control, PSAs
The current query has no negative-score questions
@Quill Hmm. I assumed most cleanup was handled by mods, and I lumped the crowd control and psa into "public-facing". Just wondering what they do behind the scenes.
As in, what's a "typical day in the life of a CM?" kind of thing.
3:18 AM
@Geobits cleanup can involve mods (see the SciFi debacle)
@Quill Though the devs are the ones that handle the bugs, most of the communication is done via CMs.
@DrGreenEggsandHamDJ I supported Father Himarm's quest for mod, and now I changed it to still support yet stop confusion between Father Himarm and I.
@AlexA. pls no
Yes, it's obviously caused the confusion to stop :P
the devs usually post the answers and set the status tags
Should I do like a mountain/country background for bloggoat, or like a city/skyline.
3:21 AM
Goats don't belong in the city.
Little Goat in the Big City: The Downgoat Story
@Geobits >:| neither do downvotes
Downvotes belong everywhere
Thanks :)
@AlexA. -1 to that
3:22 AM
@AlexA. even on your nomination?
Well I already got those :P
Look at the top users on MSO. Out of the mods, only balpha, Oded, Marc Gravell, Nick Craver, and Kevin Montrose are devs. The other 6 are CMs or executives. And then there's Jeff.
...ok that's not exactly proving my point
But I agree with Quill - SE's communication as a whole sucks.
What do you think would be best for bloggoats background: A, B, C, or D
3:29 AM
I can't see the first or third.
The first is a 403 forbidden, the third is my internet.
^ this one
@Upgoat I like the first best.
(tor helps)
@Geobits nightmare goat
@himarmjr okay, thanks for response. Did you get to see the third one?
@AlexA. It's Alaskan. Found it after a glacier hike on the side of the road.
3:31 AM
@Geobits oh my gosh, is that Marky inhibiting Chatgoat's body O_o
@Geobits Oh sorry, Alaskan nightmare goat
I was lucky to see it. They only come out at night, and night was only about half an hour long while I was there.
This was right before it charged and killed the rest of the group.
I had to drive back alone, and it chased the car for a good thirty miles before giving up.
Quite impressive really.
@Geobits All goats are impressive :)
I don't know about that...
Marky did not find that to be true.
Impressively tasty maybe.
3:34 AM
Marky made Chatgoat into Chatvindaloo
I went to a restaurant the other day and they were serving goat curry... it's horrible. 1/5 on yelp
^ I need to make this soon
-1 not enough goat
+1 for not using goat
How do you know there isn't a goat in there?
3:39 AM
I assumed you wouldn't make it if there was. You know, the vegan thing :P
That, and it's on a plant-food based website.
You mean goat isn't vegan?
Umm, no wait it is. Eat up.
@Geobits ಠ_ಠ
@AlexA. goats aren't, downvotes are :P
Hmm. I'm not sure about the white text on that background. I'm not sure exactly what would be better, but something about the text is a bit off.
@Upgoat Yes with the exception of the "Bloggoat?" part. It looks random after all of the nicely placed tiles.
3:44 AM
Also, just curious, but what's with the partial-width horizontal separator over the title? The blue bar in the center in particular seems out of place.
@Geobits yeah, idk, its wordpress being weird
@Upgoat err sorry I meant the third looks best. :/
@AlexA. no it isnt dont eat teh goatz
Other than that it looks nice. I'm not in love with the scrolling transition thing, but it's much less obnoxious than on most sites that do it.
@AlexA. They're just trying to trick you. Seriously, goat is fine for vegans. Look it up on Yahoo answers if you don't believe me.
They don't have souls, so it's okay.
@Geobits ;_; y u do dis
I've heard that Yahoo! Answers is like Stack Exchange but higher quality
3:47 AM
Pretty much, yes. They vet their answerers instead of just letting random people post.
I'm sold
brb running for yahoo answers mod
Proof: Here's the answer to "Can I eat goat meat..." posted in the vegetarian/vegan section: answers.yahoo.com/question/…
Best answer: "I honestly don't give a f*."
@Doorknob @himarmjr halp, why are you vibrating
3:53 AM
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
I found a command to fix wordpress: sudo rm -rf *
> Wrong section meat eater! Reported as insulting!
This is why people hate vegans
>_> how the hell do i remove that blue POS
That's no way to talk about Geobits
Yours is the blue name, not mine :P
3:57 AM
:| I meant on the wordpress site
I'm not sure either of us are on it right now. Alex?

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