The Nineteenth Byte

Alex A.

12:00 AM

¯\_( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)_/¯

himarm jr

^^

@AlexA. amazon.com/Bra-Discs-Nipple-Covers-4101/dp/B00207OAI4

s/women/men/gi

Alex A.

...thanks >_>

himarm jr

welcome! ^_^

Lynn

-2

Q: Shortest λ-term that nobody can prove if it terminates or not

Post a term on the untyped λ-calculus that nobody can prove that this term terminates. If someone proves either that it terminates or that it doesn't, you lose the post. Term with shortest length on the binary lambda calculus wins. You can use any λ-calculus interpreter you want. This one looks ...

himarm jr

New pet peeve: <SCRIPT> tag, not <script>. >_>

Lynn

12:03 AM

This is actually sort of a neat idea?

himarm jr

yeah, but hard to do right

Lynn

Have we had a proof-based cops-and-robbers?

himarm jr

like all pop-cons

@Lynn no? 10/10 idea though

Lynn

It suffers from the same problems as… every other cops-and-robbers, I suppose. Thanks, Curry–Howard. :<

himarm jr

@Quill feature-request Make starting the SE-Chat terminal thing show a couple of the lastest messages.

Lynn

12:05 AM

(Mostly, it’s just too easy to construct statements only you know how to prove)

himarm jr

@Lynn Curry-Howard?

nvm google

Quill

@himarmjr open an issue pls :)

Lynn

Types are propositions! Programs are proofs!

himarm jr

@Quill ... SO MUCH ISSUE

Quill

you're my beta tester... get used to it ;p

himarm jr

12:12 AM

@Quill 1 more thing, soon to be issueified, replies from in the chat viewer. And message numbers listed at the message.

Also, what does the /pingable command do? Specifically how does it sort them?

Quill

I think I just left it how the server sorts them

uh, I can't remember how it sorts them

@himarmjr see here: chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/pingable/240

Dr Green Eggs and Ham DJ

12:41 AM

~~@easterly irk~~ @himarmjr What's with the name?

Quill

5 hours ago, by Himarm 2017

but I support Himarm's quest for mod 2017

Dr Green Eggs and Ham DJ

meta.codegolf.stackexchange.com/revisions/2140/38

Geobits

#yinglucklife

Dr Green Eggs and Ham DJ

I wonder if we'll ever one day know the meaning behind yingluck.

Alex A.

> Question eligible for bounty in 4 hours

Make time go faster ;-;

Dr Green Eggs and Ham DJ

12:55 AM

It probably means something really deep and profound.

Alex A.

Haha thanks for the pity SO upvote. I assume it was someone in here. :P

Upgoat

@AlexA. np

Alex A.

I wasn't implying that you should...

(it just got another)

But yeah, thanks. Hopefully someone will answer it eventually.

Quill

@AlexA. that was me, I thought I had upvoted it the first time

Alex A.

Oh, okay. Well thank you <3

Dr Green Eggs and Ham DJ

1:04 AM

Holy shit...
I just found 6700 lines of python that I wrote when I was 15. 0_0

Alex A.

So like yesterday?

Oh wait no, you're 18

Dr Green Eggs and Ham DJ

@AlexA. ಠ_ಠ

Alex A.

:P

Oh, I almost forgot...

Dr Green Eggs and Ham DJ

Almost forgot what?

Alex A.

Graduation perks update: Community ads were inadvertently overlooked and the CMs will get on that soon. Our site-specific text is under review and we'll get a design once we get updated text.

21

Upgoat

1:07 AM

> Community ads were inadvertently overlooked

> PPCG were inadvertently overlooked

PhiNotPi

^ sounds all too familiar

Alex A.

PPCG: 5 years from beta to graduation, 5 years from graduation to design. Let's make it happen.

7

Helka Homba

Is the community ads thing available yet? You said it would be available within the week but it's been nearly two weeks. — Helka Homba Mar 7 at 2:51

quartata

Jeez cut SE some slack

Alex A.

I'm in no hurry, I'm just reciting information.

quartata

1:08 AM

No, you're fine.

Helka Homba

Weeks -> Months

quartata

FWIW I really wouldn't expect design to come for a while because SE specifically said they'd roll out our "not a Q&A" requests with it

Alex A.

I just said that...

> we'll get a design once we get updated text.

Helka Homba

@quartata I am kinda peeved at them for seemingly constantly ignoring our site. Though I'm not sure it's a usual occurrence on other SE sites

quartata

@AlexA. I'm being a little more direct since people seem to be getting upset about the amount of time it's taking without understanding that it's unreasonable to expect it to be quick

We asked for a lot of stuff

Upgoat

1:12 AM

:D for loops work in Cheddar! Only problem is they error every iteration rather than execute the code...

Alex A.

> work

mmmmmm

El'endia Starman

Aye. s/work/"work"/ :P

Upgoat

nvm found the problem

cheddar> for(var i:=0;i<5;i=i+1){print i}
0

:|

quartata

@Upgoat there's a hole in the cheese

Alex A.

This is Cheddar, dammit, not Swiss! Make dairy great again!

quartata

1:15 AM

@Upgoat What's the difference between := and = there?

Upgoat

@quartata = is reassignment. := is used with assignment to specify the var is not strictly-typed. If I wanted to define the var as a string I'd do var i :String = foo rather than var i := foo

Alex A.

waffles

toaste

quartata

@Upgoat That's what I figured, but ew var i :String = foo

Alex A.

That's not so bad, kind of Rust-like

quartata

Why not String i := foo? Or var:String i := foo

@AlexA. I'm more taking offense at the :String = part

That looks really ugly imo

Alex A.

1:18 AM

I think that's what Rust does

Lynn

It’s ML-like

let x : int = 3

Upgoat

@quartata String i := foo is hard to parse because cheddar grammars are CFG so no lookahead.

Alex A.

Rust is exactly that ^, -space between x and :, +semicolon at the end

quartata

I'd be fine with it if it wasn't for the var x := foo also being legal

The two together look really weird

Upgoat

I could change it if it's that bad

Lynn

1:19 AM

@Upgoat What’s the elevator pitch for Cheddar?

quartata

var str :String = "asdf"
var x := 0

That kind of thing

Upgoat

@Lynn idk I've kinda described it in docs.cheddar.vihan.org

@quartata well you could match it up:

var str : String = "asdf"
var x   :=            0

idk

Helka Homba

^ anyone else see the yellow overcoat?

PhiNotPi

<--- is still researching the domain market for some reason. Apparently app.uk is available.

@HelkaHomba yes

Upgoat

@PhiNotPi can you even buy .uk domains?

PhiNotPi

1:25 AM

@Upgoat no

Upgoat

Someone with $70,000 to spare– please buy this: goat.com

PhiNotPi

I can buy .co.uk though

For .uk domains, I need a physical mailing address within the United Kingdom, which might take more than $20 to acquire.

Significantly more, even.

Upgoat

CMC: write an alternative .shift function which doesn't modify the original array, but acts like it does

Quill

@PhiNotPi you can get mailing addresses from like shipping companies

they let you hire overseas addresses so you can get mail that is nationally limited

Geobits

For under $20?

PhiNotPi

1:32 AM

On one hand, I think app.uk is a really great unclaimed premium domain, on the other hand, it costs ~75 times as much to register ($7.46) as my previous investments combined.

PS I still think it's hilarious to use the word "investments" to refer to ten cents.

Quill

@Geobits it usually depends on the size of the mail you receive

bkul

I just bookmarked this chat. I'm never getting work done again...

Alex A.

@HelkaHomba yes

@bkul Work is overrated anyway

Maltysen

@Upgoat ._.

> overlooked

I and other people must have mentioned them at least 7 times before giving up

Quill

I get work done while I have this chatroom open.... it's just less work

Geobits

1:38 AM

@bkul I think most people just leave it open forever. Then there's no need to bookmark it ;)

PhiNotPi

I figured out why app.uk is available. The domain app.co.uk was registered before the date of 29 October 2013, which means that the .co.uk domain owner has the reserved right to register the corresponding .uk domain, until 10 June 2019, where app.uk becomes available to everyone.

Quill

nice

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@Dennis could you add Yup to TIO?

Upgoat

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ add #!/usr/bin/env node to the top of yup.js and rename it to yup so then you would be able to do ./yup foo bar

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

I'm on windows

wtf is the hashtag for

Upgoat

1:47 AM

you should use package.json rather than putting your node_modules on GH

Dr Green Eggs and Ham DJ

Shebang

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

Idk how to use package.json, so eh

Dennis

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ I'll take a look later.

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

Thanks!

Upgoat

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ just go to the dir and do npm init

Uploading your node_modules is a very bad idea

Quill

1:51 AM

that's why github's preinitialised gitignore for Node is great

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

I didn't know about any of this stuff

Alex A.

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ Windows doesn't read shebang lines at all AFAIK

So tl;dr don't worry about it

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@AlexA. what are they for?

Alex A.

On Linux (because who the hell else cares about them?) they designate what program runs the file

On Windows it's dictated by the file extension

Mac can do either

Doorknob

@AlexA. hello there

Alex A.

1:56 AM

@Doorknob >_>

Doorknob

:P

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

What's an entry point? in npm init

Helka Homba

@Geobits Do you enjoy Dickens?

Alex A.

Granted, you have to care about shebangs as a Linux user, Scooby @Door.

Geobits

@HelkaHomba That seems random, but generally yes.

Helka Homba

2:02 AM

good

Maltysen

@AlexA. i'm a linux user, and i generally don't use/forget to use shebangs and just explicitly name the program that i want to use

Doorknob

@Maltysen But ./foo is so much easier than bar foo

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

subjectively

Alex A.

s/su/o/

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Shortest program with unknown halting status Rules Post a term on the binary λ-calculus (BLC) whose termination is unknown. If someone proves that your term does or doesn't terminate, you entry is disqualified. The term with the smallest number of bits on the BLC wins. Don't forget to also ...

Upgoat

2:07 AM

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ the command to start your code, you should leave that blank

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@Upgoat okay

@Upgoat I added the package.json, but you said something about a .gitignore. Could you elaborate?

Helka Homba

@Geobits and poetic bears?

Geobits

@HelkaHomba I'm surprised you even feel the need to ask.

Quill

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ gitignore is basically files that you want in your project, but you don't want to be in your repo

like modules that node installs or debug logs

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

oh, okay. any tutorials on how to use it?

Quill

2:16 AM

basically each line is a file path

It might seem a little childish, but GitHub's git tutorial is great: try.github.io/levels/1/challenges/1

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

wait a .gitignore doesn't need a name?

Quill

files with no "name" and just an extension are hidden files

Helka Homba

.gitignore is the name

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

ohh

okay, so I've added node_modules to the gitignore, but it still shows up in my repo. what am I doing wrong?

Quill

git remove node_modules

Helka Homba

2:21 AM

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ you need to manually remove node_modules. But when you add all and commit next time it should then be ignored

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

Okay, cool! I think everything is "proper" now

thanks guys

Upgoat

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ oh, sorry for not responding, I didn't see your ping :|

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

it's fine, I figured it out. the repo looks okay now right?

Upgoat

yup

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

\o/

Upgoat

2:28 AM

(just relized the pun)

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

oh, I thought it was intended

Anonymous

2:40 AM

I've been working on what I think will be my favorite challenge yet:

Anonymous

3

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Capture the Flag Do you ever wonder why we're here? Objective Capture the enemy team's flag and return it to your base. The first team to 3 captures wins the round. The player with the most wins across all (number TBD) rounds wins the game. Teams There will be two teams each round. Teams wil...

Quill

oh hey apparently HyperDev are sending me swag

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

where's the meta consensus for flags for programs?

Anonymous

16

A: On "interactive" answers and other special conditions

My basic guideline would be "as the problem statement says". Which is mostly to mean it's allowed to explicitly override anything it wants from what I'm about to say next. Actions to invoke For test-case/IO programs, I like it better when the whole invocation is possible as a single line, thro...

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

I should really bookmark this stuff...

New Sandboxed Posts

2:50 AM

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Implement an HTTP Tunnel I'm bored at work and stuck behind a draconian proxy. They can take my other ports but they can never take my port 80 freedom! Help me get all the internets! This is a code-golf challenge. requirements a single web page that processes GET and POST data and produces...

Anonymous

@quartata It's unreasonable to expect that everything we want will be done quickly. It's perfectly reasonable to expect some kind of status update more often than once every three months. I'm perfectly ok with everything taking a while, as long as the communication channels are open, and we all know the status of the project. What I'm not ok with is us not being given updates at all in three months - it makes us feel ignored, and we have no way to know if they're actually working on it.

Anonymous

"Inadvertently overlooked" (and similar phrases) happens way too much for PPCG.

Anonymous

If the CMs are spread too thinly to be able to keep track of everything that needs to be done for all the sites and provide regular updates, perhaps it's time SE hires a few more.

Alex A.

I think traditionally providing regular updates isn't part of what CMs do. I don't know of any sites other than Meta.SE on which the CMs are actively engaged with the community.

Quill

Meta.SO

Geobits

2:56 AM

Regular updates should be expected during transitional times like this, though.

3

Quill

also the CMs will get involved on non-Trilogy sites for things that they're required or when the mods are out of their depth

PhiNotPi

I just posted a blog article about my forays into the domain market: blog.phinotpi.com/2016/06/07/domaineering

Nathan Merrill

Do we really need updates though? I mean, we know that SO is working at a steady pace, and its not like an update does anything but sate our curiosity

Anonymous

When a site says "hey, we need these big changes in order to function" and the CMs say "ok we will work on it", they should provide regular updates. That's just professionalism and common courtesy.

Anonymous

@NathanMerrill Communication is vital. It lets us know that we have not been forgotten (like we have been so many times already)

Geobits

2:58 AM

@NathanMerrill Not for every little thing, no. But for something that should take place "within a couple weeks", something would be nice before three months' time.

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

Oh, I'm sure it'll happen in 6-8 weeks

Anonymous

Regular updates and communication are especially vital now, since we've apparently been forgotten yet again.

Nathan Merrill

@Geobits forgetting about community ads is one thing. I agree with discontent about that

Quill

PPCG doesn't really need CM feedback per say, right now. What it needs is for the design team to do a site design, besides that, this site is graduated, the stats look good, the userbase loves the site, what more do the CMs need to say?

Nathan Merrill

but I'm honestly fine if we don't any communication besides the "hey, here's this awesome thing"

Quill

2:59 AM

> "Just like you guys, we're waiting on the design team"

Communication is crucial, but there's no reason to do updates if there's nothing to report

Upgoat

@Quill but they did kinda forget that we were supposed to get our community ads for a couple months

Geobits

@Quill Tell every boss ever that :P

Alex A.

@PhiNotPi Your website is beautiful, btw

Quill

@Upgoat and they communicated to the mods about it, and the mods handed that information to us

Nathan Merrill

a boss has a reason for updates. He needs to manage employees

PhiNotPi

3:01 AM

@AlexA. Don't compliment me, compliment the Wordpress theme designer.

Upgoat

@Quill after a while though

Nathan Merrill

PPCG would like updates, but it certainly doesn't need them like a boss does

Alex A.

@WordpressThemeDesigner PhiNotPi's site looks beautiful

Geobits

@NathanMerrill If I learned one thing in the military, it's that updates (even those that don't add much/anything) improve morale. Leaving people in the dark for months on end causes anxiety and impatience, no matter what.

Especially when it's been admitted that we've been "forgotten/overlooked" before.

Alex A.

@NathanMerrill I would argue that it's the mark of a good boss to provide updates to those under them, particularly when thinigs have been requested of the boss.

Anonymous

3:02 AM

PPCG would really benefit from regular updates. A few more "oops we forgot about you guys" events, and then we'll need them, if SE wants us to have any faith in their system.

Quill

SE are trying to work on their communication, in the last few months, it's been getting worse. We're missing podcasts, sites changes are being scheduled a very long way a way, etc.

Alex A.

I just mean that in general though

Nathan Merrill

true, updates certainly does keep morale

Quill

They are a bit understaffed though, considering there's less CMs than people in this room right now

and there's like a billion SE sites and like 4 billion proposals on Area51

Geobits

Hell, I could use a new job ;)

Anonymous

3:04 AM

10 mins ago, by Mego

If the CMs are spread too thinly to be able to keep track of everything that needs to be done for all the sites and provide regular updates, perhaps it's time SE hires a few more.

Upgoat

@Optimizer if you ever make a wordpress site you've gotta use this theme :P

Geobits

(that was a joke, SE-NSA. no way i'd take a cm job even if offered)

Nathan Merrill

@PhiNotPi I like your analogy of "rope across the river"

Quill

if you want to talk to a CM and ask them to take a look at an outstanding change to PPCG, feel free to use the Contact Us form or most of them have their emails in their profiles

Alex A.

@Geobits y? ;-;

PhiNotPi

3:09 AM

@NathanMerrill Thanks. I think I read something pretty similar somewhere else, but I don't remember the economic terms that they used to describe it.

Geobits

@AlexA. That wasn't meant to be a jab at SE in particular. I just feel I'm not meant to be in a job with that much public-facing work. I can handle people fairly well when necessary, but not as my main function.

Anonymous

15 community managers for 156 sites. How in the hell does SE think that will work?

Nathan Merrill

@Mego I don't think its actually correlated to the number of sites, but the number of users

if I was SE, I'd be more concerned with the overarching community than individual sites

but that said, it leads to situations like this

Quill

@Mego because CMs aren't supposed to handhold everything, that's what we have protems, mods and privileged users for

Alex A.

@Geobits I figured as much. But FWIW I think you'd make a good CM.

Geobits

3:11 AM

@AlexA. Thanks. I probably would for a week or two. Then the urge to kill would start creeping in :P

Quill

hard as nails and sarcastic. makes for a good CM ;)

Alex A.

Start? :P

Upgoat

@Geobits I think that's already crept in through Marky :P

Geobits

See? Now that's an idea. Marky for CM.

He responds very quickly, even if it's not what you want to hear.

Upgoat

what could possibly go wrong except a couple of dead goats

Geobits

3:14 AM

Goats are prey animals, so I'm not sure that's even considered "going wrong" to most people.

Anonymous

@Quill While that is true, there is a direct correlation between the number of sites and the amount of work the CMs have to do. SE is clearly understaffed, based on the 2401+ bugs with no resolution.

Quill

Those are handled by Devs, actually

Geobits

Do CMs handle bugs? To be completely candid, I really have no idea what (beside the public-facing part that we actually see) a CM job entails.

Quill

and they are hiring Devs

Doorknob

@Mego Restrict to a zero or positive score and you're down to 149.

Anonymous

3:16 AM

@Quill I was also trying to point out that SE is understaffed across the board.

Doorknob

@Doorknob wait never mind I lied; I did that search wrong

Quill

@Geobits cleanup, crowd control, PSAs

Anonymous

Yep

Anonymous

The current query has no negative-score questions

Geobits

@Quill Hmm. I assumed most cleanup was handled by mods, and I lumped the crowd control and psa into "public-facing". Just wondering what they do behind the scenes.

As in, what's a "typical day in the life of a CM?" kind of thing.

Quill

3:18 AM

@Geobits cleanup can involve mods (see the SciFi debacle)

Anonymous

@Quill Though the devs are the ones that handle the bugs, most of the communication is done via CMs.

himarm jr

@DrGreenEggsandHamDJ I supported Father Himarm's quest for mod, and now I changed it to still support yet stop confusion between Father Himarm and I.

@AlexA. pls no

Geobits

Yes, it's obviously caused the confusion to stop :P

Quill

the devs usually post the answers and set the status tags

Upgoat

Should I do like a mountain/country background for bloggoat, or like a city/skyline.

Geobits

3:21 AM

Goats don't belong in the city.

Alex A.

Little Goat in the Big City: The Downgoat Story

Upgoat

@Geobits >:| neither do downvotes

Alex A.

Downvotes belong everywhere

Geobits

Thanks :)

himarm jr

@AlexA. -1 to that

Upgoat

3:22 AM

@AlexA. even on your nomination?

Alex A.

Well I already got those :P

Anonymous

Look at the top users on MSO. Out of the mods, only balpha, Oded, Marc Gravell, Nick Craver, and Kevin Montrose are devs. The other 6 are CMs or executives. And then there's Jeff.

Anonymous

...ok that's not exactly proving my point

Anonymous

But I agree with Quill - SE's communication as a whole sucks.

Upgoat

What do you think would be best for bloggoats background: A, B, C, or D

himarm jr

3:29 AM

I can't see the first or third.

The first is a 403 forbidden, the third is my internet.

Geobits

^ this one

himarm jr

@Upgoat I like the first best.

(tor helps)

Alex A.

@Geobits nightmare goat

Upgoat

@himarmjr okay, thanks for response. Did you get to see the third one?

Geobits

@AlexA. It's Alaskan. Found it after a glacier hike on the side of the road.

Upgoat

3:31 AM

@Geobits oh my gosh, is that Marky inhibiting Chatgoat's body O_o

Alex A.

@Geobits Oh sorry, Alaskan nightmare goat

Geobits

Right

I was lucky to see it. They only come out at night, and night was only about half an hour long while I was there.

This was right before it charged and killed the rest of the group.

I had to drive back alone, and it chased the car for a good thirty miles before giving up.

Quite impressive really.

Upgoat

@Geobits All goats are impressive :)

Alex A.

I don't know about that...

Geobits

Marky did not find that to be true.

Impressively tasty maybe.

Alex A.

3:34 AM

Marky made Chatgoat into Chatvindaloo

Upgoat

I went to a restaurant the other day and they were serving goat curry... it's horrible. 1/5 on yelp

Alex A.

^ I need to make this soon

Geobits

-1 not enough goat

Upgoat

+1 for not using goat

Alex A.

How do you know there isn't a goat in there?

Geobits

3:39 AM

I assumed you wouldn't make it if there was. You know, the vegan thing :P

That, and it's on a plant-food based website.

Alex A.

>_>

You mean goat isn't vegan?

Geobits

Umm, no wait it is. Eat up.

Upgoat

does bloggoat look pretty now :3

@Geobits ಠ_ಠ

@AlexA. goats aren't, downvotes are :P

Geobits

Hmm. I'm not sure about the white text on that background. I'm not sure exactly what would be better, but something about the text is a bit off.

Alex A.

@Upgoat Yes with the exception of the "Bloggoat?" part. It looks random after all of the nicely placed tiles.

Geobits

3:44 AM

Also, just curious, but what's with the partial-width horizontal separator over the title? The blue bar in the center in particular seems out of place.

Upgoat

@Geobits yeah, idk, its wordpress being weird

himarm jr

@Upgoat err sorry I meant the third looks best. :/

@AlexA. no it isnt dont eat teh goatz

Geobits

Other than that it looks nice. I'm not in love with the scrolling transition thing, but it's much less obnoxious than on most sites that do it.

@AlexA. They're just trying to trick you. Seriously, goat is fine for vegans. Look it up on Yahoo answers if you don't believe me.

They don't have souls, so it's okay.

Upgoat

@Geobits ;_; y u do dis

Alex A.