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12:26 AM
@MattE.Эллен "The apostrophe first appeared in English sometime in the 16th century, possibly ganked into English printing from Italian or French conventions"
What's with all this tanking? Doesn't seem very nice.
12:44 AM
Hi folks, was just wondering if there is anything I could do to help improve my question and get an answer or more eyeballs on it. Is the title good? Thanks!
Q: Ambiguity of the word 'any'?

allquixoticGiven the following question, in the context of a poll or vote: Should any employee of Company X be allowed to assume absolute authority in any project with Company X's name associated? Under the rules of English, are both of these interpretations valid, therefore making the question ambigu...

1:41 AM
@Jolenealaska Have you started hanging out here too?
@tchrist Would you say that Portuguese sounds like Romanian and Italian sounds like Spanish?
@Jasper Me, I probably wouldn't, although I can see why you might think that.
The Romance languages have such similar vocabulary that one tends to mix them up.
@Jasper Nope, I just popped in and forgot to leave. :)
@Jasper I've never confused French and Spanish.
1:52 AM
I have great difficulty pronouncing the voiced uvular fricative in French and German. I need to do more research in it.
Many Portuguese dialects have a uvular fricative.
It is the symbol with an inverted capital R in IPA.
And there are different things said about it online which makes it all the more confusing.
It's incredibly easy.
But it seems that in some French and German dialects, it is replaced with the alveolar trill, which is much easier for me.
1:55 AM
And in some Portuguese dialects as well.
I have watched and heard many videos on how to pronounce it, but I still can't!!!
The alveolar trill is the original.
And much harder for English speakers in my experience.
Can you do [χ] [h] [x]? If so, then I bet you can do [ʁ].
But [r] is something else altogether.
The trill is simple for me, lol.
And so is the Spanish flap.
> A consoante designada doravante por /ʁ/ tem uma variedade de realizações, dependendo do dialeto.
No Brasil, este som pode ser velar, uvular, alveolar ou glotal, e pode ser surdo a menos que esteja colocado entre consoantes sonoras,[3] embora seja costumeiramente pronunciado como uma fricativa velar surda ([x]), uma fricativa glotal surda ([h]), uma fricativa uvular surda ([χ]) ou uma vibrante múltipla alveolar ([r]). Na Europa, suas mais frequentes realizações são a fricativa uvular sonora ([ʁ]), a vibrante múltipla uvular ([ʀ]) e o vibrante múltipla alveolar ([r]).[6]
1:59 AM
By the way, I think the best way to learn a language on your own is to use the Assimil books and CDs.
I am here to advertise Assimil!
I did a survey for Living Language and they gave me a free 3 month online course.
Hey people.
While answering a question on ELL I found out that start a fight/argument/feud/etc are acceptable collocations,
but begin a fight/argument/feud/etc_ are not used.
Wanted to post a question about it, but thought maybe it's better to talk it over first. Any thoughts?
2:16 AM
Why? I checked in COCA and n-gram viewer.
Start and begin don't mean the same thing.
Hi :)
Not in all cases. If they did, they would not both exist.
2:19 AM
What makes them different in this case?
I read the questions about start vs. begin, but not a clue about this.
> Hey you, buddy, you tryin to start somethin?
Now try that with begin.
See, you can't.
So they're different.
@KitZ.Fox Hi.
Don't you begin with me.
Right. That one's because begin sounds more formal.
2:21 AM
Not just that, as she observes.
But I'm getting your point.
I guess I'm doing it the other way round.
I should understand the meanings by comparing their usage.
Not vice versa.
> Gentlemen, this is an argument clinic. Let the arguments begin now!
Don't know about this one.
Now you're just arguing. :)
2:24 AM
That's a pretty sorry start.
Begin at the start.
What makes begin more suitable in your last example? @tchrist
Ick. Wow. I don't like that sentence at all.
@Fard The third-person imperative.
2:25 AM
It's fancier.
I'm gonna have a tough time learning English.
So much detail.
You already know it.
These are subtle nuances that come from a lifetime of daily use.
Not satisfying.
I wanna be a teacher.
Well, thanks @tchrist for your help.
Take heart.
You'll do fine.
I certainly hope so.
But it's gonna take some time too.
Heart and time.
2:30 AM
If it doesn't take work and time, and some bodily fluids, you wouldn't appreciate it anyway.
OK. Let me ask you another question while we're here
Your job, should you choose to accept it, is to explain why the previous sentence is perfectly grammatical and normal.
That's not my idea of a fine English class.
Many others can do that.
Pop quiz.
Do you think it's good for an advanced learner
2:33 AM
I have no antecedent for it.
to study older material in order to understand contemporary English better?
Those are somewhat conflicting goals, but the more you know the easier it all becomes.
I mean, had someone asked me a similar question
regarding my mother tongue,
I would guide him toward some works in certain centuries from certain writers and stuff.
To understand contemporary language better.
To absorb the foundations of today's language.
2:51 AM
There's a huge amount of material out there.
Merely in the last two hundred years.
I know. What about Shakespeare?
I sure don't wanna pick up too much obsolete words and constructions.
(And I guess you wanted to give me a pop quiz and I cut you off)
Don't bother. I guess I won't know until I try it. I better start (not begin) asking people about it after getting a taste of it.
@Fard I wouldn't suggest anything older than 60 or maybe 80 years ago if someone asked me how they should learn my first language, and it's clear that they simply want to learn the present day Thai.
On the other hand, I think there is no harm in reading anything, given that the reader knows what they're doing.
Agreed, if the learner is in their first stages of learning.
But to capture all these details
You're Thai?
Yes, I am.
To capture all the details, I think one should refer to when a language has been briefer and simpler.
3:07 AM
I'm not sure. I can feel that it's a good idea when studying a programming language. I don't feel it with human languages.
I mean, I don't think a natural language was necessarily really simpler, but it could be, and quite likely, different from its current state.
I taught Farsi literature at high school some time ago.
Oh, that's cool!
Students who didn't know the history of their language,
didn't do very good on contemporary literature.
Thanks. Yeah, it was cool.
You a fan of literature? Of you're own language?
3:11 AM
Well, I'm not sure if I can say I'm a real fan, but I've had my own share (in digesting, not producing, BTW!).
I guess you would agree with me on that then.
I'm not simply after some ordinary teaching.
I have an inclination towards literature.
If I'm to be an English teacher, I wanna do it in some creative way like that.
I think literature is one important domain of language. Then again, there probably are too many domains one will need to learn in order to master a second language for one's own goals.
You're right.
By no means is that sufficient for students.
I just want to provide a new aspect that might be useful for some of the learners.
46 mins ago, by tchrist
Pop quiz.
@tchrist You wanted to give me a pop quiz?
3:18 AM
48 mins ago, by tchrist
If it doesn't take work and time, and some bodily fluids, you wouldn't appreciate it anyway.
I think tchrist meant why the sentence is okay even though it can't be explained with Conditionals 1-3 or 0.
Right. That deserves a star.
@DamkerngT. yep
Yay! I guessed right!
Subtle. Where was the hint?
Maybe I didn't catch it.
The two sentences subsequent to that one.
3:24 AM
Right. I would appreciate a nice debunking of the old Conditionals myth.
You don't like the existing ones?
I mean the 0,1-3 conditional rules.
No such thing.
A: Difference between "if + present, will + infinitive" and "if + present, would + infinitive"

tchristThis is a very good question, and you are smart to raise it. Both your sentences are indeed grammatical,³ which is why you often find both sorts. In a nutshell, the one with would expresses a proposition that is less likely than the one that uses will. That’s because backshifting is used to indi...

I always encounter counter examples.
Linguists don't believe in those myths. And they are harmful.
3:26 AM
Some of it makes sense.
A: Is "would + present tense" bad grammar?

FardOne way of tackling this problem is to comply with the rules of thumb that are presented in many grammars, stating that we have three (or four) conditional constructions: the (zero,) first, second, and third conditionals. Cambridge Grammar of English says: The most commonly described condit...

I tried to figure it out a bit there.
But You're right. As a whole, it's harmful.
If you would only look at it from the perspective of actual speech, you would see that it makes no sense.
I remember Aracauria Telling me that there are absolutely no rules.
Regarding this matter.
@tchrist Ask and you shall receive. ← The twelve-and-a-halfth conditional.
Not absolutely... let me find his comment.
I posted some numbered list nearing two hundred once.
3:30 AM
Ooh, I want to see!
Do you happen to have it handy somewhere? :-)
I can't remember where I posted it.
It wasn't well-received.
Oh, that's a shame. It sounds like fun.
I probably linked to it here.
It was fun.
What was it exactly?
3:31 AM
If I knew what it was exactly, it wouldn't be so hard to find, eh?
I very nearly lost my final eh when I moved to California. People around me used final huh, and it was contagious.
I can't do that one.
I moved here as a teenager, which I suppose is still a somewhat linguistically impressionable age.
Enjoyed your company everybody. I'm going.
3:34 AM
Have a good evening, @Fard! Or wait, it's not evening where you are, is it? Have a good day!
It's a lovely morning!
Good night all, I must retire. Way past my bedtime.
Have a good night, @tchrist!
Good night.
Don't forget to sleep. See you on the flip side.
3:35 AM
Good night @tchrist! Have a good one, @Fard!
Have a good day had a problem, I don't remember what. @snailboat
@Fard Oh, you don't like it? Then how about: Have a splendid morning!
You said so. Too formal?
Oh, no. Well, this is just my personal opinion. Different people can say different things. I think Good day! sounds a bit antiquated.
I think it may sound strange if someone says Have a good day in a late evening.
3:37 AM
But a full sentence like Have a great afternoon! or Have a good day! such seems genuine and friendly to me.
So to my ear, Good day! and Have a good day! are different.
Thanks for the explanation.
I'm gonna be gone now.
Bye everyone!
Well, Good day! isn't necessarily non-genuine or unfriendly. So that might not have been a great explanation. I'm just trying to put my impression on hearing each utterance into words. Good day! just sounds a bit old-fashioned to me, and I think it would go well with tipping one's hat.
See you! :-)
6:30 AM
@snailboat Germans use Guten Tag, lol.
@DamkerngT. Kap kun ka, lol.
@Jasper It sounds strange unless you're female!
7:16 AM
[ SmokeDetector ] Bad keyword in body, bad keyword in title, pattern-matching website in body: How supportive is essay writing services reviews to find the best essay writing service? by Jessicasbach on english.stackexchange.com
3 hours later…
9:56 AM
@Jasper The French use bonjour and the Spanish ¡Buenos días!.
@SmokeDetector By TCool
Dang, I needed to catch Matt.
10:52 AM
@tchrist hi
Oh hi there.
How's it going?
I'm looking for what I believe to be an old deleted post of mine from our meta with the word "dare" in it, and I can't use user:2085 deleted:1 dare there. It's a parody list of more than a hundred conditionals. The disk that I had it on took a hard crash so I couldn't recover it. Could you please look and see if you can send me a link to it?
I was trying to find it for snailboat but couldn't.
Oh found it I think. Duh.
Jan 16 '15 at 15:14, by tchrist
       I: If he will jump, you will not have to.
      II: If he will jump, he can win.
     III: If he will jump, he may win.
      IV: If he will jump, you must follow.
       V: If he will jump, you dare not follow.
      VI: If he will jump, you need not follow.

     VII: If he escapes, catch him.
    VIII: If he escapes, you can catch him.
      IX: If he escapes, you catch him.
       X: If he escapes, you could catch him.
      XI: If he escapes, you may catch him.
     XII: If he escapes, you might catch him.
No wonder I couldn't find it: it was here not there.
Jan 16 '15 at 15:15, by tchrist
Now at CXXXVII Conditionals.
10:58 AM
Conditionals! (/¯◡ ‿ ◡)/¯ ~ ┻━┻
@snailboat See above.
@tchrist only one deleted post containing the word dare, and it's by sumelic :D
Thanks! I figured it would match "If he will jump, you dare not follow.".
CXXXVII is a good number.
We should give them Romanized names to go with Romanize numerals, like CONDITIONAL CENTÉSIMO TRIGÉSIMO SÉPTIMO. :)
Some of those are real tongue-twisters.
And don't believe them on 715.
Décimo-quinto is the fifteenth, not the seven hundred fifteenth.
11:08 AM
it seems a bit small
Now we know what's diabolic about the Number of the Beast: sexcentésimo sexagésimo sexto.
That's pretty sexy.
but where does this guy fit?
Somewhere they’re taking moulds of schnozzes?
Decide for yourself, Jasper.
12:08 PM
@MattE.Эллен His nose is a bit too big. Not sexy enough for me.
2:10 PM
Closing controversy alert:
Q: Is there a word for those random spots/patterns you see when you enter your home after playing outside on a sunny day?

BiscuitBoyI am not sure how many of you have experienced this but coming from a very hot region (South India), I have experienced this numerous times. Especially when I enter my home after spending long duration playing outside on a bright sunny day. I sort of hallucinate(for lack of better word) and see p...

- 5 people voted to close as duplicate of [The dark dot in your eye](http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/130724/the-dark-dot-in-your-eye)
- 5 people voted to reopen (after a meta request explaining how they are different phenomena)
- 1 person hammer-voted (needing only a single vote because they have a super-power badge for it) to close as a duplicate.

Since people can only vote once, if you think it should be reopened, 5 new people are needed to vote to reopen (or one person with a hammer-vote).
2:27 PM
You've got the history wrong.
Anyway, it's not a dupe. Those are two different things.
2:59 PM
@KitZ.Fox what's the correct history
@KitZ.Fox Vote to reopen... again!!
- 1 person hammer-voted (needing only a single vote because they have a super-power badge for it) to close as a duplicate.
- 5 people voted to reopen (after a meta request explaining how they are different phenomena)
- 1 person hammer-voted (needing only a single vote because they have a super-power badge for it) to close as a duplicate.
whoa. hopefully two different hammer voters?
You only get that one once as well.
Im actually not convinced totally that they are distinct phenomena. The 2nd OP hasn't elaborated.
his description could be about floaters.
I re-opened it already. I expect you'll defend me in the subsequent "mod abyuz' post.
It's not floaters. It's the thing that happens when your pupils dilate rapidly.
3:02 PM
@KitZ.Fox oh.
I'll shut up then
well, shut up about that.
3:20 PM
Hi everyone.
I'm not really a frequent user on this site, but I know it's not good to cross-post from another site, but I fear ELL is not the place to get a great answer.
@rubenvb Hullo! Welcome!
As a non-native, but partly grown-up in the US person, I would respond to this negatively: ell.stackexchange.com/questions/83898/can-nightmare-be-seen/84030
@rubenvb We certainly have avid answerers, the thing you need to do is catch their attention.
But there's a 2 upvote answer saying the contrary, so I ask you guys: we can't possibly see a nightmare (cfr. a dream, not a nightmareish thing which we could see).?
3:24 PM
Hi @josh, welcome to this chat.
If by nightmare I'd mean a thing/monster/whatever, yeah, I'd say "see" is good. But my (American) English language feeling says "to see a nightmare" meaning "to dream a nightmare" (sounds iffy but I'd say correct?) or "to experience a nightmare" sounds wrong.
What are your thoughts?
(I'm dropping out soon, but answer me @rubenvb and I'll hopefully see it next time I log on to a SE site, thanks :))
3:28 PM
Knock it off, lol.
Knock it off, lol.
Why did you change your name?
I did?
3:35 PM
You were MAR.
I did not
@Jasper I were.
Today I saw a flyer outside my door that had a space before the exclamation mark. English is finished in this country.
@KitZ.Fox I'm puzzled about why the making a meal out of X question is down-voted and almost closed for lack of research, but the rat's chance question is being given a lot of leeway even though it doesn't have any more research. Of course, the people to ask are the down-voters, but I was wondering whether I missed something obvious (like, say, one question is more interesting than the other).
Then some people complained that I'm not pingable, and I changed my name so that my first character is something English.
@Jasper Where do you live in?
I'm still MAR.
3:37 PM
@IͶΔ Secret.
Whoa, what does its flag look like?
@Lawrence Welcome to SE. Votes are not supposed to make sense.
I want to announce 2 important things.
Truly a citizen of the world. Or belonging to everybody who makes a claim to a piece of useless land
@Jasper Go on
3:38 PM
@Jasper Oh crud
@Lawrence Because four people with close vote powers looked at the one and not the other.
There is a Facebook Work From Home ad that promises to pay a few hundred dollars a day. It is a scam.
Lots of people have fallen for it because it looks so real.
Second, Chrome has dropped support for 32-bit builds. To make sure you get updates on Linux for 64-bit Chrome, follow the instructions on this week's issue of DW Weekly on distrowatch.com.
@Lawrence i don't see why they should be closed, because phrases are often not in dictionaries, not easy to find in a reference.
3:40 PM
@Jasper I promise you I have no feelings towards digital things.
@Jasper yes, that sounds scammy
@Jasper You'd think 64 bits would be enough.
@IͶΔ I have a complex relationship with them
@Mitch Oh. I closed them because they did not show research.
@Mitch Some people use complex when they mean non-real, forgetting that a real number is also complex.
I wonder why those who write 'sing !' don't write 'sing ! ! !'.
sing ! 1 !
3:46 PM
@Jasper I suppose that's true - reasons aren't normally given for votes one way or the other.
Next month is a big month for Linux, as Ubuntu LTS 16.04 will be released!
Last month was a big month for LaTeX, as the fifth edition of More Math Into LaTeX was published!
Thanks for watching the news tonight.
I haven't had the opportunity to get my hands on LaTeX 3. :/
ELL has a new design, yay!
3:52 PM
Well, old news.
Finally, Caleb's ghost has left this chat.
He was in here for years but said nothing.
@KitZ.Fox I see you've closed both questions. Oh well, at least they're handled consistently. I wish there was something in the put on hold notice that linked to a procedure to request reopening after issues are addressed. Visitor-friendliness and all that :) .
That sounds like a good post for Meta.SE.
In other news, I just finished watching Saw 1,2,3,4,5,6,7.
4:00 PM
My ghost will never leave the chat
That's our doom
It'll just say dead words, like wazoo.
They are painting the walls outside my block of apartments. I need to make sure they don't see me naked.
What will happen if they see you naked?
Well, probably nothing. But if they are nasty, they can call the police, and I will receive a warning or fine, or something like that.
4:04 PM
What for? For being naked in your private residence?
@Jasper just has a fear
Seems like the workers ought to be fined for violating your privacy.
@KitZ.Fox Yes. I think this case has been discussed on TV before.
It's not as if they would now, he just has a general fear of that
Antarctica is not as nice as America, you know.
4:05 PM
I don't like being recognizable
Pic change!
I am going to take a shower.
4:23 PM
@Jasper the joke is, his name is Zachary Quinto, which relates to the numbers tchrist and I were talking about
4:38 PM
Is this correct? "Are those photos taken by yourself?"
Why would it not be?
@KitZ.Fox Ok.
@IͶΔ I don't know, I doubted should I use "have" instead of "are", something like this: "Have those photos taken by yourself ?"
No, that one is ungrammatical.
4:44 PM
ah ok, tnx
Five Parts Of Speech You Won't Believe Actually Exist
@MετάEd Number five: The English Language
I use six strokes to draw a human figure.
@Jasper I either use one or 2000
Depends on how... sketchy it is
@DeltaEscher Did you make all those pics yourself? Very creative!
4:50 PM
@Jasper Making one for every country
Any requests?
Nope. You can be an artist in future.
@Mitch On reflection, I recognise the site's frustration with LQQs. I think there's a win-win to be had by encouraging (not just telling) the OP to raise the quality of their own question.
5:30 PM
@KitZ.Fox OK
@Jasper That is irrational
@Jasper You should watch Jane Austen 1,2,...7. Cucumber sandwiches and all. Not as many dismemberments
Did you see 'Pride and Prejudice and Zombies'? The ads make it look more like 'Chicks in Prom Dresses and Zombies'
@Jasper There was a thing in the news about a teacher who had a 'topless' picture of herself on her phone. And a student surreptitiously got hold of the phone and took a picture of the picture and IM'd around school. Guess what happened? Of course, the teacher was fired. The authorities are jerks everywhere.
@Shafizadeh "Were those photos taken by yourself?"
These mini flags are so easy to make.
I already have like 20
@MετάEd You'll be shocked at #3!
@DeltaEscher But how do they taste?
@Mitch Was going to say that but it sounded stupid in my head
@Mitch Like Democracy™!
@DeltaEscher They're stupid out of your head to. Slate is the worst, no matter how fascinating the link caption is, it's always disappointing when you click through.
@Mitch I never have and I never will
It's one of those things I refuse
5:41 PM
@DeltaEscher tastes terrible, but it's better than all the others.
@Mitch It even says it wasn't supposed to be stored this long...
@DeltaEscher Good choice. Youtube comments are better reading.
@Mitch Some are clever
@DeltaEscher They just put those notices so you'll throw it away and buy more.
Someone made a video showing off a gun on some watermelons
5:42 PM
also, you can eat food that you take out of the garbage if it's right one top.
And there was a long comment about the abuse of watermelons and their captivity
@DeltaEscher I'm OK with that. I don't care for watermelon personally.
Me either
Too juicy to even taste it
They've never done anything to me directly. but it's just way too much work to get something that really doesn't taste that great. Also seeds.
Off topic thing here
My sister collect caps of water bottles
It's so stupid, but I can't think why.
5:45 PM
There's a topic?
I just derailed the conversation on watermelons
@DeltaEscher but throws away the bottles themselves?
brb lunch
That's messed up.
@Mitch recycles
Our family is heavy on that
5:46 PM
get a new sister. trade her in.
lunch? HS!
Can you wait here while I get lunch first?
6:35 PM
Back from lunch
Coffee brewing ratio. Discuss.
@MετάEd you're mad! There's nothing to discuss
6:52 PM
6 what to 8 what?
scoops to water
Can you express that as a mass ratio?
I could, but I would probably be wrong.
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