English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

12:26 AM

@MattE.Эллен "The apostrophe first appeared in English sometime in the 16th century, possibly ganked into English printing from Italian or French conventions"

What's with all this tanking? Doesn't seem very nice.

allquixotic

12:44 AM

Hi folks, was just wondering if there is anything I could do to help improve my question and get an answer or more eyeballs on it. Is the title good? Thanks!

1

Q: Ambiguity of the word 'any'?

Given the following question, in the context of a poll or vote: Should any employee of Company X be allowed to assume absolute authority in any project with Company X's name associated? Under the rules of English, are both of these interpretations valid, therefore making the question ambigu...

user174558

1:41 AM

@Jolenealaska Have you started hanging out here too?

user174558

@tchrist Would you say that Portuguese sounds like Romanian and Italian sounds like Spanish?

tchrist

@Jasper Me, I probably wouldn't, although I can see why you might think that.

user174558

The Romance languages have such similar vocabulary that one tends to mix them up.

Jolenealaska

@Jasper Nope, I just popped in and forgot to leave. :)

tchrist

@Jasper I've never confused French and Spanish.

user174558

1:52 AM

I have great difficulty pronouncing the voiced uvular fricative in French and German. I need to do more research in it.

tchrist

Many Portuguese dialects have a uvular fricative.

user174558

It is the symbol with an inverted capital R in IPA.

user174558

And there are different things said about it online which makes it all the more confusing.

tchrist

It's incredibly easy.

user174558

But it seems that in some French and German dialects, it is replaced with the alveolar trill, which is much easier for me.

tchrist

1:55 AM

And in some Portuguese dialects as well.

user174558

I have watched and heard many videos on how to pronounce it, but I still can't!!!

tchrist

The alveolar trill is the original.

And much harder for English speakers in my experience.

Can you do [χ] [h] [x]? If so, then I bet you can do [ʁ].

But [r] is something else altogether.

user174558

The trill is simple for me, lol.

user174558

And so is the Spanish flap.

tchrist

> A consoante designada doravante por /ʁ/ tem uma variedade de realizações, dependendo do dialeto.
No Brasil, este som pode ser velar, uvular, alveolar ou glotal, e pode ser surdo a menos que esteja colocado entre consoantes sonoras,[3] embora seja costumeiramente pronunciado como uma fricativa velar surda ([x]), uma fricativa glotal surda ([h]), uma fricativa uvular surda ([χ]) ou uma vibrante múltipla alveolar ([r]). Na Europa, suas mais frequentes realizações são a fricativa uvular sonora ([ʁ]), a vibrante múltipla uvular ([ʀ]) e o vibrante múltipla alveolar ([r]).[6]

user174558

1:59 AM

By the way, I think the best way to learn a language on your own is to use the Assimil books and CDs.

user174558

I am here to advertise Assimil!

user174558

I did a survey for Living Language and they gave me a free 3 month online course.

Fard

Hey people.

While answering a question on ELL I found out that start a fight/argument/feud/etc are acceptable collocations,

but begin a fight/argument/feud/etc_ are not used.

Wanted to post a question about it, but thought maybe it's better to talk it over first. Any thoughts?

tchrist

2:16 AM

Disbelieve.

Fard

Why? I checked in COCA and n-gram viewer.

tchrist

Start and begin don't mean the same thing.

Kit Z. Fox

Hello.

Fard

Hi :)

tchrist

Not in all cases. If they did, they would not both exist.

Fard

2:19 AM

What makes them different in this case?

I read the questions about start vs. begin, but not a clue about this.

tchrist

> Hey you, buddy, you tryin to start somethin?

Now try that with begin.

Fard

Huh.

tchrist

See, you can't.

So they're different.

@KitZ.Fox Hi.

Kit Z. Fox

Don't you begin with me.

Hmm.

Fard

Right. That one's because begin sounds more formal.

tchrist

2:21 AM

Not just that, as she observes.

Fard

But I'm getting your point.

I guess I'm doing it the other way round.

I should understand the meanings by comparing their usage.

Not vice versa.

tchrist

> Gentlemen, this is an argument clinic. Let the arguments begin now!

Fard

Don't know about this one.

tchrist

Now you're just arguing. :)

Fard

Yeah.

Sorry.

tchrist

2:24 AM

That's a pretty sorry start.

Kit Z. Fox

Begin at the start.

Fard

What makes begin more suitable in your last example? @tchrist

Kit Z. Fox

Ick. Wow. I don't like that sentence at all.

tchrist

@Fard The third-person imperative.

Fard

Wow.

tchrist

2:25 AM

It's fancier.

Fard

I'm gonna have a tough time learning English.

So much detail.

tchrist

You already know it.

These are subtle nuances that come from a lifetime of daily use.

Fard

Not satisfying.

I wanna be a teacher.

Well, thanks @tchrist for your help.

tchrist

Take heart.

You'll do fine.

Fard

I certainly hope so.

But it's gonna take some time too.

Heart and time.

tchrist

2:30 AM

If it doesn't take work and time, and some bodily fluids, you wouldn't appreciate it anyway.

2

Fard

OK. Let me ask you another question while we're here

tchrist

Your job, should you choose to accept it, is to explain why the previous sentence is perfectly grammatical and normal.

Fard

That's not my idea of a fine English class.

Many others can do that.

tchrist

Pop quiz.

Fard

Do you think it's good for an advanced learner

tchrist

2:33 AM

I have no antecedent for it.

Fard

to study older material in order to understand contemporary English better?

tchrist

Those are somewhat conflicting goals, but the more you know the easier it all becomes.

Fard

I mean, had someone asked me a similar question

regarding my mother tongue,

I would guide him toward some works in certain centuries from certain writers and stuff.

To understand contemporary language better.

To absorb the foundations of today's language.

tchrist

2:51 AM

There's a huge amount of material out there.

Merely in the last two hundred years.

Fard

I know. What about Shakespeare?

I sure don't wanna pick up too much obsolete words and constructions.

(And I guess you wanted to give me a pop quiz and I cut you off)

Don't bother. I guess I won't know until I try it. I better start (not begin) asking people about it after getting a taste of it.

Damkerng T.

@Fard I wouldn't suggest anything older than 60 or maybe 80 years ago if someone asked me how they should learn my first language, and it's clear that they simply want to learn the present day Thai.

On the other hand, I think there is no harm in reading anything, given that the reader knows what they're doing.

Fard

Agreed, if the learner is in their first stages of learning.

But to capture all these details

You're Thai?

Damkerng T.

Yes, I am.

Fard

To capture all the details, I think one should refer to when a language has been briefer and simpler.

Damkerng T.

3:07 AM

I'm not sure. I can feel that it's a good idea when studying a programming language. I don't feel it with human languages.

I mean, I don't think a natural language was necessarily really simpler, but it could be, and quite likely, different from its current state.

Fard

I taught Farsi literature at high school some time ago.

Damkerng T.

Oh, that's cool!

Fard

Students who didn't know the history of their language,

didn't do very good on contemporary literature.

Damkerng T.

Interesting.

Fard

Thanks. Yeah, it was cool.

You a fan of literature? Of you're own language?

Damkerng T.

3:11 AM

Well, I'm not sure if I can say I'm a real fan, but I've had my own share (in digesting, not producing, BTW!).

Fard

I guess you would agree with me on that then.

I'm not simply after some ordinary teaching.

I have an inclination towards literature.

If I'm to be an English teacher, I wanna do it in some creative way like that.

Damkerng T.

I think literature is one important domain of language. Then again, there probably are too many domains one will need to learn in order to master a second language for one's own goals.

Fard

You're right.

By no means is that sufficient for students.

I just want to provide a new aspect that might be useful for some of the learners.

Damkerng T.

nods

Fard

46 mins ago, by tchrist

Pop quiz.

@tchrist You wanted to give me a pop quiz?

Damkerng T.

3:18 AM

48 mins ago, by tchrist

If it doesn't take work and time, and some bodily fluids, you wouldn't appreciate it anyway.

I think tchrist meant why the sentence is okay even though it can't be explained with Conditionals 1-3 or 0.

Fard

Right. That deserves a star.

tchrist

@DamkerngT. yep

Damkerng T.

Yay! I guessed right!

Fard

Huh.

Subtle. Where was the hint?

Maybe I didn't catch it.

tchrist

The two sentences subsequent to that one.

Fard

3:24 AM

Right. I would appreciate a nice debunking of the old Conditionals myth.

tchrist

You don't like the existing ones?

Fard

I mean the 0,1-3 conditional rules.

tchrist

No such thing.

15

A: Difference between "if + present, will + infinitive" and "if + present, would + infinitive"

This is a very good question, and you are smart to raise it. Both your sentences are indeed grammatical,³ which is why you often find both sorts. In a nutshell, the one with would expresses a proposition that is less likely than the one that uses will. That’s because backshifting is used to indi...

Fard

I always encounter counter examples.

Thanks.

tchrist

Linguists don't believe in those myths. And they are harmful.

Fard

3:26 AM

Some of it makes sense.

5

A: Is "would + present tense" bad grammar?

One way of tackling this problem is to comply with the rules of thumb that are presented in many grammars, stating that we have three (or four) conditional constructions: the (zero,) first, second, and third conditionals. Cambridge Grammar of English says: The most commonly described condit...

I tried to figure it out a bit there.

But You're right. As a whole, it's harmful.

tchrist

If you would only look at it from the perspective of actual speech, you would see that it makes no sense.

Fard

I remember Aracauria Telling me that there are absolutely no rules.

Regarding this matter.

Anonymous

@tchrist Ask and you shall receive. ← The twelve-and-a-halfth conditional.

Fard

Not absolutely... let me find his comment.

tchrist

I posted some numbered list nearing two hundred once.

Anonymous

3:30 AM

Ooh, I want to see!

Anonymous

Do you happen to have it handy somewhere? :-)

tchrist

I can't remember where I posted it.

It wasn't well-received.

Anonymous

Oh, that's a shame. It sounds like fun.

tchrist

I probably linked to it here.

It was fun.

Fard

What was it exactly?

tchrist

3:31 AM

If I knew what it was exactly, it wouldn't be so hard to find, eh?

Fard

Right.

Anonymous

I very nearly lost my final eh when I moved to California. People around me used final huh, and it was contagious.

tchrist

I can't do that one.

Anonymous

I moved here as a teenager, which I suppose is still a somewhat linguistically impressionable age.

Fard

Enjoyed your company everybody. I'm going.

Anonymous

3:34 AM

Have a good evening, @Fard! Or wait, it's not evening where you are, is it? Have a good day!

Fard

It's a lovely morning!

tchrist

Good night all, I must retire. Way past my bedtime.

Anonymous

Have a good night, @tchrist!

Fard

Good night.

tchrist

Don't forget to sleep. See you on the flip side.

Damkerng T.

3:35 AM

Good night @tchrist! Have a good one, @Fard!

Fard

Have a good day had a problem, I don't remember what. @snailboat

Anonymous

@Fard Oh, you don't like it? Then how about: Have a splendid morning!

Fard

You said so. Too formal?

Anonymous

Oh, no. Well, this is just my personal opinion. Different people can say different things. I think Good day! sounds a bit antiquated.

Damkerng T.

I think it may sound strange if someone says Have a good day in a late evening.

Anonymous

3:37 AM

But a full sentence like Have a great afternoon! or Have a good day! such seems genuine and friendly to me.

Anonymous

So to my ear, Good day! and Have a good day! are different.

Fard

Thanks for the explanation.

I'm gonna be gone now.

Bye everyone!

Anonymous

Well, Good day! isn't necessarily non-genuine or unfriendly. So that might not have been a great explanation. I'm just trying to put my impression on hearing each utterance into words. Good day! just sounds a bit old-fashioned to me, and I think it would go well with tipping one's hat.

Anonymous

See you! :-)

user174558

6:30 AM

@snailboat Germans use Guten Tag, lol.

user174558

@DamkerngT. Kap kun ka, lol.

Damkerng T.

@Jasper It sounds strange unless you're female!

SmokeDetector

7:16 AM

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Matt E. Эллен

9:56 AM

@Jasper The French use bonjour and the Spanish ¡Buenos días!.

SmokeDetector

10:31 AM

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IͶΔ

@SmokeDetector By TCool

tchrist

Dang, I needed to catch Matt.

Matt E. Эллен

10:52 AM

@tchrist hi

tchrist

Oh hi there.

Matt E. Эллен

How's it going?

tchrist

I'm looking for what I believe to be an old deleted post of mine from our meta with the word "dare" in it, and I can't use user:2085 deleted:1 dare there. It's a parody list of more than a hundred conditionals. The disk that I had it on took a hard crash so I couldn't recover it. Could you please look and see if you can send me a link to it?

I was trying to find it for snailboat but couldn't.

Oh found it I think. Duh.

Matt E. Эллен

:D

tchrist

Jan 16 '15 at 15:14, by tchrist

       I: If he will jump, you will not have to.
      II: If he will jump, he can win.
     III: If he will jump, he may win.
      IV: If he will jump, you must follow.
       V: If he will jump, you dare not follow.
      VI: If he will jump, you need not follow.

     VII: If he escapes, catch him.
    VIII: If he escapes, you can catch him.
      IX: If he escapes, you catch him.
       X: If he escapes, you could catch him.
      XI: If he escapes, you may catch him.
     XII: If he escapes, you might catch him.

No wonder I couldn't find it: it was here not there.

Jan 16 '15 at 15:15, by tchrist

Now at CXXXVII Conditionals.

IͶΔ

10:58 AM

Conditionals! (/¯◡ ‿ ◡)/¯ ~ ┻━┻

tchrist

@snailboat See above.

Matt E. Эллен

@tchrist only one deleted post containing the word dare, and it's by sumelic :D

tchrist

Thanks! I figured it would match "If he will jump, you dare not follow.".