The Nineteenth Byte

SuperJedi224

00:00

But each cell is 1x2 blocks

Zizouz212

Can't over HTTPS :(

flawr

Good night guys.

Sp3000

><>?

quartata

Anyways that's the current consensus on disallowing languages

Alex A.

@Quill I should have just bought the box set of Friends. Instead I bought all ten seasons separately.

Zizouz212

00:00

10

Q: Disallowing Explicit Exclusion of Languages

We've had discussion on a related topic before, where the general consensus is that challenges should be language-agnostic by default, but specific-language challenges were also acceptable within reason. Spurred by this question (which was closed for an unrelated reason), the discussion was brou...

SuperJedi224

I was going to do 2x2, I don't remember why I changed it

quartata

It depends
I think there are (at least) two very different cases, and the question as posed doesn't distinguish them.

Case 1: banning languages the OP doesn't like
Penalties for using "golfing languages" have a number of problems. For one, the question "Is XYZ a golfing language?" is subjective. For another, borrowing from a phrase about bringing a knife to a gunfight, on this site it's like going to a rifle range and insisting that people should use epées.

Case 2: banning a specific language which trivialises the question

SuperJedi224

Anyway:

Quill

@AlexA. that's kind of the point of a box set

Zizouz212

Hmmm...

Alex A.

00:01

@Quill I know. I think I bought them before I knew such a set existed.

quartata

@Zizouz212 What's your challenge?

Alex A.

Keep quartatertots safe from tornadoes

quartata

:P

I'm safe, don't worry.

Alex A.

Okay. I am genuinely concerned so I'm glad to hear you're safe.

quartata

The tornado warning was canceled so

It was just amusing that we got one honestly

Hosch250

00:03

I've never seen a tornado. I want to chase storms when I'm older.

quartata

The idea of a tornado in California is very novel, to say the least

@Hosch250 Protip: Don't

Hosch250

BTW, those are only issued when one is seen.

Alex A.

@Hosch250 I want to run from storms always.

Hosch250

I love storms. They are wild, they have a power that I admire.

trichoplax

@SuperJedi224 I have 2^21 ideas to run past you...

Alex A.

00:04

@quartata I could maybe imagine it happening east of the Sierras but idk.

SuperJedi224

I'd need a much larger display

I don't really want to build one right now

quartata

@Hosch250 They can also kill you

So you might want to weigh those options

Hosch250

@quartata That is the least of my worries.

Quill

in The 2nd Monitor, 5 mins ago, by Phrancis

Although, you'd have to define "passing" Code Review... guess not being VTC?

Hosch250

Especially when you do it safely, but I'm not worried either way.

Zizouz212

00:05

Python, Java, C/++/#, Pearl, Ruby, Javascript, HTML/CSS (if people could even use that), Rails, Swift, Fortran, Cobol, Bash, R, Julia, J, APL... Anything else?

SuperJedi224

The circuitry behind this one already looks like this:

Hosch250

I can get a CR mod to post in VBA, maybe.

Alex A.

@Hosch250 Mat's Mug?

Hosch250

Yeah.

Alex A.

I like that guy. :)

quartata

00:06

@Zizouz212 Bash

Hosch250

@AlexA. Me too. I've learned a lot from him.

@Zizouz212 Pyth/CJam.

Zizouz212

@Hosch250 Eww

Alex A.

@Zizouz212 Julia, R, Java, ...

quartata

I think I better language list would be this: tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

Alex A.

@Zizouz212 Disallowing those will get people so salty

quartata

00:07

^

Quill

basically anything you can apply for a job in

grc

@Zizouz212 J

Zizouz212

@AlexA. That's fine. :D

Phrancis

Hey :)

quartata

prepare for salt @Zizouz212

@Phrancis Hello

Phrancis

00:08

Whoa, beta look again (just teasing)

Alex A.

@Hosch250 He provided two answers to my CR question that got me gold. Nice guy and very helpful.

quartata

I see you are from CR

Alex A.

@Zizouz212 APL

Phrancis

2 mins ago, by Quill

in The 2nd Monitor, 5 mins ago, by Phrancis

Although, you'd have to define "passing" Code Review... guess not being VTC?

^^ yes

quartata

ಠ_ಠ

Phrancis

00:09

I was just curious to see if you were really going to do that

Zizouz212

Python, Java, C/++/#, Pearl, Ruby, Javascript, HTML/CSS (if people could even use that), Rails, Swift, Fortran, Cobol, Bash, R, Julia, J, APL... Anything else?

quartata

@Zizouz212 Just use this: tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

Hosch250

@Zizouz212 You forget VBA, VB.NET, and others.

Zizouz212

@quartata Oh nice. Thanks :)

quartata

@Phrancis Anyone who did that would get kicked out of the Nineteenth Byte. We do not mingle with you plebian code reviewers

Hosch250

00:10

BTW, can I post an entry in C#, then translate it to VB.NET and resubmit it?

quartata

@Hosch250 yes

People translate between python and pyth all the time

Hosch250

OK. I'm not likely to do that, but just curious.

Alex A.

@Phrancis Btw, welcome to The Nineteenth Byte! We're not as hostile toward Code Review as we sound. hides knife

Hosch250

I mean, I could have two, essentially identical submissions at the same time?

grc

@quartata they also get downvoted

Alex A.

00:11

I don't see that happen much

Hosch250

I won't do it. It seems cheaty.

quartata

@grc I've never seen that happen.

Here, lemme show you:

Alex A.

@Zizouz212 Is your intent to disallow golfing languages? What's the purpose of this language whitelist of yours?

quartata

2

A: Alex-style Addition

Pyth, 11 bytes +sQ-18l`hO0 A direct Pyth port of my Python answer. + Add up sQ the sum of the input and - the difference of 18 18 and l` the string length of hO0 one plus a random number in [0,1)

no downvotes

Phrancis

@quartata Hey, don't get me wrong, I think it could be fun, personally; but I've seen golfed code questions get heavily DV/VTC on CR, and any answers will usually point out first and foremost "Make your code better by not golfing it"

trichoplax

00:12

@Phrancis I was thinking more "no improvements are suggested"

Zizouz212

Python, C, C++, C#, PHP, .NET, VB.NET, VBA, Javascript, Assembly, Perl, Ruby, Swift, Visual Basic, Matlab, Pascal, Groovy, Objective C, R, J, Julia, APL, Rails, HTML/CSS, APL, Fortran, Cobol, Rails, SQL, Lisp, Lua, Haskell, Bash, Applescript...

trichoplax

So it's as short as possible while still being perfectly readable and standards compliant

quartata

@Phrancis That's why we try to avoid mingling with you

Zizouz212

@AlexA. Yep. :)

Alex A.

@Phrancis Isn't code golf explicitly off topic on Code Review anyway though?

quartata

00:13

Relevant:

16

A: The Many Memes of PPCG

Meme: Code Review Originator: unclear / syb0rg? Cultural Height: up to CR's graduation :( Background: Ever since around March of 2014, Programming Puzzles & Code Golf and Code Review have had a friendly rivalry of who could graduate first (which has expanded to become a friendly rivalry in gen...

Phrancis

@AlexA. It's one of those grey areas

grc

@quartata I had porting someone else's answer in mind

Alex A.

@Zizouz212 In that case, it'd be way easier to build a list of languages you don't want.

grc

also, it didn't get upvoted much

quartata

@grc Ah.

@AlexA. I think TIOBE top 100 is a fairly decent whitelist

Zizouz212

00:14

@AlexA. Ummm... I don't think I would do that :/

quartata

@AlexA. More esolangs than you think

Alex A.

@Zizouz212 Why not?

Hosch250

List of programming languages

The aim of this list of programming languages is to include all notable programming languages in existence, both those in current use and historical ones, in alphabetical order, except for dialects of BASIC and esoteric programming languages. Note: Dialects of BASIC have been moved to the separate List of BASIC dialects. Note: This page does not list esoteric programming languages. == A == == B == == C == == D == == E == == F == == G == == H == == I == == J == == K == == L == == M == == N == == O == == P == == Q == == R == == S == == T == == U == ...

Esoteric programming language

An esoteric programming language (sometimes shortened to esolang) is a programming language designed to test the boundaries of computer programming language design, as a proof of concept, as software art, or as a joke. The use of esoteric distinguishes these languages from programming languages that working developers use to write software. Usually, an esolang's creators do not intend the language to be used for mainstream programming, although some esoteric features, such as visuospatial syntax, have inspired practical applications in the arts. Such languages are often popular among hackers and...

Zizouz212

@AlexA. The list would be too long, and someone will get around with a language I don't know.

I'm against these 'esolangs'

mınxomaτ

@Zizouz212 Esolangs are usually not golfing langs.

Zizouz212

00:15

Or that.

quartata

esolangs.org/wiki/Emmental

What you don't like our weird esolangs?

Alex A.

@Zizouz212 What about them don't you like?

Zizouz212

Everything.

Alex A.

I personally think it's interesting to see the kind of solutions in the myriad languages people dig up or create themselves on this site.

RikerW

^

Hosch250

00:17

Someone should try Mythril.

Zizouz212

But hey, before I get that challenge done, I'm going to get my other challenge (which is... kind of evil actually)

mınxomaτ

@AlexA. And if someone solves a challenge in Brainfuck, it is not going to win anyway, but they still deserve the votes.

Alex A.

@mınxomaτ Yep

RikerW

^

mınxomaτ

I can tell you right now that excluding anything for no reason whatsoever will be met with immediate backlash.

Alex A.

00:18

We've already told him multiple times now :P

Zizouz212

@mınxomaτ I'm resilient.

mınxomaτ

@Zizouz212 We'll see :)

Alex A.

haha

So encouraging

Hosch250

@Zizouz212 Just exclude all languages until someone writes a controller thing for that language.

Zizouz212

20 mins ago, by Zizouz212

I will down vote the community into oblivion >:D

RikerW

00:18

Why don't you like them?

Zizouz212

@Hosch250 That's fine. As long as the thing isn't written in the language

trichoplax

Is it important to your challenge that there be a limited number of languages, or is the whitelist just ones you would prefer? You could have a bounty for top whitelisted answer without having to exclude others (if that fits with your question)

Hosch250

Make them write it in the controller language. I usually see Java for that.

mınxomaτ

@AlexA. Make an answer which contains a golfed esolang interpreter and then appends the rest of the code in that esolang ಠ‿ಠ

Zizouz212

@trichoplax I personally dislike the 'esolangs', cause they're not readable... I think it's more... use a conventional-type language

RikerW

00:20

What is your challenge idea?

trichoplax

Oh if it's a KotH then this makes more sense - especially if you'd need to download dozens of interpreters to run the challenge

Zizouz212

Of course, it doesn't have to be code golf :)

RikerW

What is your challenge idea?

mınxomaτ

@Zizouz212 Then you'd be better off on Rosetta Code frankly.

Alex A.

If you do something like fastest-code or similar, you're unlikely to get esolangs because they're very rarely optimized for speed.

RikerW

00:21

Agreed.

Zizouz212

In fact, I kind of forget what I was planning to make the challenge about -_-

RikerW

For anything but popularity-contest esolangs not designed for code golf will never win.

quartata

@Zizouz212 If you know them they are easy to read

Alex A.

@RikerW That's not true at all. Pyth and CJam are esolangs and they routinely win code golf contests.

quartata

Pyth for example is actually really readable (at least for me)

Hosch250

00:22

@RikerW They win code-golf all the time.

trichoplax

@RikerW I wrote a poorly thought out code challenge once, which was won by an optimal answer in CJam...

mınxomaτ

@Zizouz212 I can make C an esolang: pastebin.com/t1j5ZdMu :D

quartata

@AlexA. I think he means more like Hexagony

RikerW

Wow, you all ninjaed each other replying to me.

Zizouz212

@mınxomaτ lol... That's why I love macros

Favourite macro:

    #define ever (;;)

    for ever {

mınxomaτ

00:24

@Zizouz212 If you resolve the macros you still couldn't tell me what that program does without running it.

Zizouz212

I kind of which Java had macros :)

Alex A.

Now this is C as an esolang.

RikerW

^

TanMath

where is @phase anyway

Dennis

@AlexA. 4/10 readable compared to the J interpreter

Alex A.

00:25

@Dennis I think it rivals the J interpreter in unreadability but J still wins.

The J interpreter is absolutely, in no way readable.

RikerW

Link to J interpreter?

quartata

I actually had to read the O interpreter once to figure out how String subtraction worked

RikerW

lol

quartata

I'm still scarred for life

trichoplax

You can subtract strings??

RikerW

00:26

I feel you pain. ^^^^

quartata

Someone should send it to CR

Hosch250

Wow. That is a seriously problematic language if it can subtract strings.

Alex A.

@RikerW AFAIK it isn't hosted somewhere, you have to download the source as a tarball. I forgot where I got it.

quartata

Yeah. It's basically like Ruby's x.delete(y)

RikerW

AFAIR you mean?

quartata

00:27

Removes all instances of the string

Alex A.

?

AFAIK = As far as I know

trichoplax

So you can't do "three" - "two"?

El'endia Starman

RikerW

I just dislike AFAIK.

@El'endiaStarman wat?

Hosch250

Ah, like C#'s .Replace, where you do .Replace("text", string.Empty).

El'endia Starman

00:27

Just finished a metal model of the Millennium Falcon! :D

trichoplax

Dec 27 '15 at 16:36, by Dennis

@RikerW Would AFAIR be an acceptable alternative to AFAIK?

Alex A.

@El'endiaStarman metal \m/

El'endia Starman

mınxomaτ

Or if you replace your car, we'll be happy to set it on fire again so you can take another crack at getting that shot.

3

El'endia Starman

@mınxomaτ Laptop camera. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

quartata

00:29

@Hosch250 pretty much

Hosch250

Supper time.

RikerW

                c==o
              _/____\_
       _.,--'" ||^ || "`z._
      /_/^ ___\||  || _/o\ "`-._
    _/  ]. L_| || .||  \_/_  . _`--._
   /_~7  _ . " ||. || /] \ ]. (_)  . "`--.
  |__7~.(_)_ []|+--+|/____T_____________L|
  |__|  _^(_) /^   __\____ _   _|
  |__| (_){_) J ]K{__ L___ _   _]
  |__| . _(_) \v     /__________|________
  l__l_ (_). []|+-+-<\^   L  . _   - ---L|
   \__\    __. ||^l  \Y] /_]  (_) .  _,--'
     \~_]  L_| || .\ .\\/~.    _,--'"
      \_\ . __/||  |\  \`-+-<'"
        "`---._|J__L|X o~~|[\\

@Hosch250 Bye.

Hosch250

@RikerW That looks like a most unaerodynamic profile.

Phrancis

Tags with 10 or more questions on Code Review

El'endia Starman

@Hosch250 Which is pretty much intentional.

The Falcon is supposed to be a piece of junk.

RikerW

00:30

^

El'endia Starman

And it is. :P

Phrancis

Hopefully above makes a reasonable thumb guide on what a reasonable language could be ;p

Hosch250

@Phrancis Since when is enum a language?

Or weekend-challenge?

El'endia Starman

150

Q: Why does everyone think that the Millennium Falcon is a piece of junk?

It’s a running joke in Star Wars: A New Hope (1977), and carried over into Star Wars: The Force Awakens (2015), that the Millennium Falcon looks like a piece of junk: Luke, “What a piece of junk!” when he sees it for the first time, and Leia later says sarcastically “You came in that thing? You’r...

star-wars

Alex A.

s/Languages/Tags/

RikerW

00:31

150

Q: Why does everyone think that the Millennium Falcon is a piece of junk?

It’s a running joke in Star Wars: A New Hope (1977), and carried over into Star Wars: The Force Awakens (2015), that the Millennium Falcon looks like a piece of junk: Luke, “What a piece of junk!” when he sees it for the first time, and Leia later says sarcastically “You came in that thing? You’r...

star-wars

Phrancis

OK, I can't guarantee all of them are languages, only that their Body text contains "language"

RikerW

dang, ninjaed.

Hosch250

I like the null language.

RikerW

CURSE YOU @El'endiaStarman!!!

mınxomaτ

Still my all time favorite

El'endia Starman

00:32

@RikerW ^_^

Phrancis

@Hosch250 Cut me a break dude, you know tags don't have categories otherwise I'd use that ;p

RikerW

@El'endiaStarman ಠ_ಠ

Alex A.

No breaks shall be cut

El'endia Starman

How about cheese?

Alex A.

(╯ ಠ ͜ʖ ಠ）╯︵ ┻━┻

Sp3000

00:34

OP has clarified a bunch of things about the 2016 question, if people want to take a look

RikerW

༽つ۞﹏۞༼つ ─=≡ΣO))

trichoplax

@AlexA. *brakes

Phrancis

OK, I just realized how bad my query is, that sql doesn't even come up even though it's very common. Ironic huh.

trichoplax

@Phrancis I was suspicious that a round number of results were returned too...

Phrancis

Here, try this one: data.stackexchange.com/codereview/query/420517

RikerW

00:42

Huh, there aren't any esolangs/golfing langs on there...

Phrancis

Surprised?

RikerW

:(

No.

But unhappy though.

Phrancis

brainfuck should be in there

RikerW

It isn't.

Phrancis

wat

Well, there ya go, guess you'll have to use normal languages like the rest of us ;p

RikerW

00:44

Maybe it needs more than 41 questions tagged brainf**k?

:p

Phrancis

Hm, my query is still wrong

Oh shit, I know why now I think

Here we go: data.stackexchange.com/codereview/query/420517

RikerW

What was wrong?

Phrancis

Just now realized Tags has a Count column so no weird join needed

RikerW

It works now BTW.

Wow, only 12 julia questions?

Sad.

How is there more BF than Julia?????

Phrancis

Languages with 10 or more questions on Code Review

@RikerW Not sure, I'd guess the BF name has to do with it

Everyone loves the word F%%K

RikerW

00:51

When run for PPCG, it doesn't work very well.

We don't have questions tagged with languages.

Alex A.

Yes we do

RikerW

Yeah, but fewer.

Phrancis

Right. We require at least one language tags for all questions

RikerW

data.stackexchange.com/codegolf/query/420532/…

See?

Alex A.

We, on the other hand, only use language specific tags for tips questions and KOTHs which require a certain language.

Phrancis

00:54

KOTHs?

Alex A.

Oh sorry

King of the Hill

It's a challenge type here

Phrancis

Oh gotcha

RikerW

For competitions that are bot vs bot.

How much time do you spend here?

Phrancis

On PPCG? Not very much, on occasion I'll browse/vote but I've never posted

Alex A.

@RikerW Brainfuck has been around a long time. Julia is still pre-version 1.

RikerW

00:55

@Phrancis Okay.

@AlexA. Yes, but it is much easier.

Whatever.

@Phrancis what is your opinion on this?

1 hour ago, by Sp3000

Cross-site challenge idea: Shortest golf which still passes code review.

lol

Phrancis

My opinion would be that making it on-topic will be challenging

Mauris

@AlexA. It's still amazing to me that J people legitimitely call that code a "style" and think it's more readable or whatever

I like J recreationally, but I wouldn't touch the APL mindset with a 10-foot pole.

RikerW

@Phrancis And what is your opinion on golfing langs?

@Mauris Agreed.

Mauris

(I've had discussions with people who make J/K/APL look like a scary religious programming sect. :()

RikerW

Same.

Like NBZ. His profile basically treats it as a religion.

Phrancis

00:59

If you do make a contest Q out of it, make sure to include links to How do I ask a good question? and What topics can I ask about here?

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