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12:44 AM
@AaronHall do you do Python on a mac? what IDE do you recommend?
1:14 AM
Universally seems to work no matter your platform, with all the bells and whistles: Anaconda with Spyder.
At work I have Windows on my desktop (with a proprietary Eclipsish IDE), and I write a lot of code that runs on RHEL there. I have a laptop with Ubuntu on it, and I code in emacs on that.
I tutor at the Python meetup, and Anaconda works for everybody.
And it comes with Spyder
The conda package manager makes sure everything works together.
@enderland sorry, forgot to ping you - see above :)
I think the job I'm going to be applying for uses Python
It's a great language.
I'm very inexperienced with it
syntax is easy, the hard stuff is learning all the batteries that are included.
I built a little program to quiz you on it. It's clunky, but it works
review the builtin functions, then tell it to quiz you on the functions.
let me find the github link
does python use enums?
it looks like they are actually classes of a sort
1:24 AM
Sweet, it's at 34 stars! : github.com/aaronchall/pythontrainer
enums are in 3, but I don't see much of a need for them.
you can also get them backported style
@AaronHall thinking for example, if I want to make a deck of cards, how would you make the suit/numbers?
enum seems the most straightforward way
well, is each card an object with 2 attributes, suit and rank?
something like that
enderland is making a basic app
I'd probably use lists of strings and let their order determine value
I don't see how having a number to item helps with that.
I never see anyone doing enums in Python, and I've seen a lot of code.
I think that if you try to write Python like an experienced Python programmer would, when you give them sample code, they'll appreciate it more than if it's Java or C translated into Python.
I guess that they mainly use Dart at this job, not as much python
1:36 AM
that sounds cool, that's like JS?
It looks like Google's browser programming
Type declarations all over, yuck. :)
I'll bet it is
2:28 AM
@enderland weren't we going to delete this one? workplace.stackexchange.com/q/56560/12321
I downvoted the answers hoping that would get rid of it...
3:15 AM
tempted to answer some of those questions that popped up, but wife told me I can't and it's bed time.
good night!!
9 hours later…
11:47 AM
Q: Employment in Adult Entertainment Industry as a Software Engineer

Yiannis TsimalisI performed a search on the web but could not find any results, therefore I thought to ask here: Is there a website or an agency where someone can find job listings for working as a Software Engineer in the field of Adult Entertainment industry (e.g. xnxx)? It is rather impressive that these w...

I'm not sure what's worse: that this is yet another user who doesn't realise that this isn't a site for career advice (regardless of industry) or that he's fine with associating his name and picture with that type of question.
2 hours later…
1:53 PM
A: Is it unprofessional to read personal literature while traveling for business (outside normal business hours)?

Dawny33 He suggested that it was unprofessional to do so because we were on company business The way you spend time during commute is in no way related to the company. So, that can't be even gauged as professional or unprofessional. So, your colleague here is wrong. Maybe he is suggesting that y...

Jeesh, I now regret not answering and instead leaving a (swiftly deleted) answer comment now. :)
All that glorious rep.
2:08 PM
@Lilienthal: thanks for your feedback. Let me see if I can reword it to fit the QA format. But to me asking about a career path is a valid question that has an answer; i don't necessarily view it as opinionated. E.g. for a software dev path would be: software dev, sr. software dev., lead software dev., team lead, engineering manager, sr. engineering manager, associate director, director etc. Granted some folks might be able to jump past a particular rank to a higher level but that is a generic trajectory and that is what I am looking for. — John Brown 11 mins ago
@enderland Could you maybe send this guy an invite to chat? I feel like he could use some help in outlining what changes to make for his question to be on-topic.
Assuming it can be salvaged, of which I'm not entirely sure.
2:20 PM
Good morning Lilienthal
Good afternoon @AaronHall :)
@JohnBrown you should be able to chat here
2:36 PM
Thanks ender
@enderland Am I allowed to abbreviate your name by the way? :)
Books never written: Ender's Work - by Orson Biz Card
Q: Being asked a question the interviewer KNOWS you don't know. How would you answer?

RichardI went for a job interview at a HSBC call centre for Business support a few months ago and am having another one tomorrow for the same job. One part of the interview is role play where you sit at a computer and the interviewer leaves the room and plays the role of a customer by ringing you. They ...

Could use a few close votes so OP can redefine the scope
2:57 PM
@enderland thanks for sharing the chat link
So i am looking for information on a general trajectory for a Technical Engagement Manager
I have a strong foundation in Software Dev. / IT Services having gone through the ranks of dev. all the way through Architect and now Technical Manager.
In pursuit of reaching a particular spot in my career I am looking to move into roles with greater responsibility as well as exposure to the business as a whole.
I came across the role of Technical Engagement Manager; people in this role are in touch with sales, project management, delivery, customer advisory and growth phases as well as the go-to contact for the customer
So it is a role that has a great breadth and something that intrigued me. However I haven't been able to find where this role leads from a career path perspective.
If anyone has any ideas or information, I would love to hear it either here or via PM. Basically my aspirations are to be at the Directory/VP/C-level executive 5 years from now and feel that this role gives me that additional responsibility that would prep me for it.
Here is the link to my question: workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/56619/…
I would think that at that point you would be entrepreneurial about it, breadth is probably good to position you for management, though this looks a little more lateral than upwards moving. Gotta take a meeting, ciao!
@lilienthal thanks for your feedback. I tried to reword my question to fit the format a bit better. Let me know.
@AaronHall thanks for your feedback
3:22 PM
@JohnBrown The issue with your question is mainly that it's an advice question, meaning that it's highly specific to your situation, skillset, etc.
As such, answers that are useful to you probably won't be useful to anyone else.
While I think that generic career outline question CAN be done well, in my experience they often aren't on this site, and they're usually closed fairly quickly (your question is one vote away for instance).
Given your comments, a question that might work better is "Is experience in working for / interacting with multiple departments/facets of business a bonus/critical for reaching an upper management / C-level function?"
Though as you can see from the butchered question that still needs work.
In general, career tracks are usually company-specific, certainly when it comes to the titles that you emphasize in your question.
Equally in general, career progression goes entry level > independent employee > close-teamwork > small project leader > team leader > major project leader (/ client manager) > department / Business Unit leader > C-level > CEO
The most critical experience you'd need to reach C-level is a proven track record of managing both people and projects
Fair point at @Lilienthal; i guess what sparked my question is that you can find generalized career path for most tracks, if not all, online. However searching for this role doesn't yield any results; at least not generic and hence I turned here.
@JohnBrown I'm not sure what "generalized career paths" and what "tracks" you're referring to but I suspect most of them are probably largely BS. Apart from an upward trend in responsibility and reports, there's no one-size-fits-all for a given title.
Every company has different titles and even if you abstract them to general roles you'll still have very different criteria across companies/industries/specialisations.
not entirely sure e.g. take the example I gave in my question for a software dev. similarly take example for a carpenter ... you are an apprentice and rise through training to become a full-fledged carpenter; same thing for electrical; you need education/training and start at an entry level apprentice/junior.
so I don't necessarily think the general outline is BS 'cuz it gives you some gauge and i agree it necessarily doesn't have to align 100% but it does to some extent.
True, but those titles no longer translate to modern office work.
Can't that be said for almost every position? You need some sort of training for it, you start at an entry-level post, and you advance upward over time?
3:37 PM
@JohnBrown I know of a company that actually uses those roles, ie apprentice/crafstman/artisan/etc
I don't know ... what modern office that you know doesn't need electricians :)? Agreed @Trevor but their are typical role definitions for that break down as @enderland mentions
if you look at the drop down you will see what I mean
*there, not their ...
@JohnBrown Hit the up arrow to quickly edit your last chat post
oh nice, thanks @Trevor
3:42 PM
chat is a mystery, you will learn new things even if you are here all the itme
@JohnBrown At that point, I'm going to agree with the others that say it will vary largely by company.
@enderland just saw the drop-down; that is awesome to see a company using titles from other industries in software dev.
@JohnBrown they model that idea all over the place, kind of neat
I agree that there's a general progression in your career (there should be by definition really), but I'm getting the impression that you're obsessing over titles when you should be looking at responsibilities.
There are no universal flowcharts for career progression.
Some companies do have those of course and they can be both a blessing and a curse.
@Lilienthal you can actually ping someone with only teh first 3 characters of their name in chat, if you want
that should have pinged you
I was in I think LaTeX chat and they have an "@end" notation that pinged me everywhere
3:45 PM
@enderland very cool. @Lilienthal: true. But I have seen general flowcharts of career progression/title in most fields that I have encountered: medical/investment banking/engineering etc.
we have:
engineer I
engineer II
senior engineer
staff engineer
senior staff engineer
principle engineer
I am not necessarily obsessed with titles. I do value responsibility and that is why I am entertaining this role even though from a comp./seniority perspective it is lateral
but that's non management
eveyr company labels things differently which is going to make it REALLY hard to have a clear answer to that question
but that being said, titles are critical and play a great role when you are moving from one job to another
@JohnBrown not really, plenty of companies hand out "senior" titles like candy
when it's really more, "we want to pay you X but you need to be a senior widget maker to be paid X so you are one!"
3:47 PM
I can have all the responsibility in the world but if my title is software developer, no company is going to bring me in for a manager level role
what you do matters more
@JohnBrown it depends on what you write on your resume, too
if you write... "team lead" or "scrummaster" or other management like responsibilities, the title matters much less
@enderland no disagreement their. But our resumes have to represent what we have done and titles on resumes are a big factor
Q: Importance (and flexibility) in Job Title Presented in Job-offer

enderlandSituation In a job offer a job title is specified. This may be something which likely appears everywhere - whether company email address books or your email signature or on your resume. From my experience, your title can oftentimes affect how receptive and prompt other employees are to helpin...

You might enjoy that question of mine :)
some of hte answers there are really good perspective on this
so I don't necessarily negate their value. @enderland thanks for sharing, i'll take a peek
@JohnBrown I'm sorry to burst your bubble but that is patently wrong. :)
Since you're new to chat: you can click the little arrow in front of my message and it will show you to what message of yours I was replying.
3:50 PM
@Lilienthal Hovering over it will also highlight it, assuming it's still on your screen.
the problem with job titles is there is no standard company to company
if you go to banking, everyone is a Vice President - you can be a local bank manager and be "VP"
in my company VPs are managers of 1000+ divisions at least
Basically that
I thought we had a canonical Q&A on this but apparently we don't
Can't find it on AskAManager either :)
@Lilienthal, agree to disagree. For most companies you won't even get a phone screen for a manager level role unless you have titles that show you have had that responsibility and were accountable for it. A software developer "titled" person can perform management functions but there title doesn't equate to official responsibility
@Lilienthal hey my question is good! :P
3:52 PM
@enderland Agreed, but it's not a canonical question about titles.
@JohnBrown you can ask for job title changes, too
"hey do you think my job title should be updated to reflect my current responsibilities?"
@enderland absolutely; and I have; and I've had people ask me as well.
@JohnBrown I think realistically the answer to your question is going to be "it depends"
Some people will also skip steps on your list, too
@JohnBrown I disagree, precisely because as @enderland said, titles vary hugely across companies. They won't contact someone for a manager role when his previous title is "Junior Software Engineer" but a lowly "Software Engineer" will be called if he lists in the description for that job "managed a team of 5 junior developers" or something like that.
If you go to smaller companies or startups you will take on more responsibility (and risk)
if you stay in the same megacorp you might have more of a clear progression
3:56 PM
I'd be worried about a company that looks at a job title and dismisses a candidate without even reading the job description.
@enderland LOL; of course they will. Agreed. @Lilienthal great discussion, but I don't think that "vary hugely" is an accurate statement. In IT consulting most of our titles mean the same thing across the industry
@JohnBrown really? I'm.. less than convinced :)
@Trevor that would be 90% of the companies out there. Reality is mate there are a handful of companies out there that really take the time to understand you as the candidate when you submit your resume and go over it with a fine eye. Most will spend 30 sec or less and if things don't pop-out at them, you won't be getting a call.
@enderland Well I don't know how else to convince; I mean take a look at Accenture, Deloitte, PwC, ManTech, Northrop Grumman, Raytheon, Google, Facebook, Lockheed, Boeing etc. You will notice most of the titles mean the same albeit with some variation
@JohnBrown reality also is once you get high enough in management your best bet to getting jobs is referrals/networking too (well at any level)
@enderland concur 100%; not denying power of networking
4:06 PM
@JohnBrown well aren't you lamenting how that's not the case right now? that you can be a "software engineer" doing managementy things?
@JohnBrown I'm likely going to be utilizing this in the near future to get at least an interview if not a job ;)
oh no I was simply saying that if you are a software engineer doing management functions, that is not enough to get you a call for a management role. You need to have titles that show accountability to the responsibility that comes with it
@JohnBrown but that's my point - you are saying that titles are standardized, but they clearly aren't (as your example illustrates)
I'm sure you've worked with "senior engineers" who couldn't engineer themselves out of a box
just because they have the title doesn't mean anything
@enderland edited my post, meant software engineer not manager. Absolutely I have and those are the ones I don't keep. But then there are Senior engineers that are just mindbogglingly awesome and a delight to be around. But the focus of my question is not necessarily merit of the titles and or whether their holders deserve them (that is a can of worms :))
@JohnBrown I feel like what you are really asking is, "how can I represent responsibilities I do that differ from the common understanding of my job title, so that I am considered for higher level positions?"
though I'm not sure. I've also lost the connection to the original question and wonder if we are more in a secondary discussion, too :-)
@enderland we have definitely broken away from the original discussion and I wanted to get us back to that but I am enjoying the discussion so don't mind the tangent. I guess my question is really around the lines of does engagement manager lend itself to where I want to be and the only way I can be sure if I have a general idea of how the career path for that role is or what experiences, if there are any, individuals have that have been through that role
4:20 PM
@JohnBrown Well, since my own (top 8) consulting company can't even fully standardise titles across different business units I'm going to go out on a limb and say that they really don't match perfectly across consulting companies either.
While Junior Consultant / Consultant / Senior C might have some overlap, every company will have different requirements for those titles.
For one it might be managing your own Juniors, for another it might mean heading a client project solo, etc. etc.
There's really no way to compare titles, that's pretty much universally accepted in hiring as I understand it.
@JohnBrown That still sounds like a company-specific question. I suppose there's a chance someone out there has a good, relevant answer (though not necessarily relevant to the site) but I think you'd do better to talk to people in your company who have advanced on from your role and see where they went, and if they had other opportunities. Talk to your manager and see where they think you can go from your current position. (or the person you'd be reporting to if it's a new position).
@TrevorArchibald Yeah that would be my advice as well.
Right, time to head home.
@Lilienthal I agree that they don't align a 100%. Thanks for your input, safe travels.
Also after a certain point the "standard career path" breaks down
all software engineers don't become CEOs for example
also has more developer types who might have insight too
4:45 PM
@Trevor: thanks! Actually the role is with another company and I am interested in it. It is not as tech heavy as I currently am so that is what sparked the question. I.E. going into a bit of a higher level role that is not glued to tech
@enderland agree, they don't. Most software engineers actually aren't the personality type for CEOs
@JohnBrown I'm according to personality profiles one that is suited for CEO :D (because of course surveys like that are legit)
@enderland hahaha
At this point I guess the answer isn't really clear cut so as was mentioned earlier "it depends" is the take away.
You could get some insight from talking with people in your company doing roles like you want, too
@enderland i work for a very small firm at the moment so there isn't much of a hierarchy structure; it is pretty flat.
I am pretty much at the pinnacle of where I can reach with them
5:25 PM
@enderland Let me guess: INTJ? :)
5:38 PM
@Lilienthal ding ding ding
5:51 PM
I still remember how during my first day in the office along with a bunch of 20-30 other newly hired grads we all got to publicly determine our Myers-Brigg types.
I was one of the two CEOs :)
I've done a ton of those sorts of things
I actually like them as they give good insight about who you are
6:06 PM
It's quite interesting to do them privately
Doing them in public is seriously misguided.
But then, that entire session for new hires was beyond inane. :)
Doing them publicly as an icebreaker is even worse.
"Let's not just limit everyone's preconceptions about you to your appearance, let's give them personal information that you might not even understand to add to it!"
It's right up there with "describe what animal you are"
(Which we also did of course)
I actually wrote several of the more hilarious ones down somewhere, I should look for that page again for a quick laugh.
6:22 PM
I knew that duplicate had to be there somewhere, I just couldn't find it.
Although most of those answers point to a case where offers have been made.
This guy doesn't even sound like he's to that point yet.
The accepted answer is applicable to multiple applications in different stages of the process. You are of course free to add your own Trevor :)
6:58 PM
okay, so the company just made me an offer for engagement manager and I am not sure if I should take it ... as I am a bit conflicted .... decisions/decisions
@JohnBrown "engagement manager" ?
enderland immediately thinks of weddings
yes ... hahaha
technical engagement manager
the base is less than where I am at the moment but the bonus and RSU's are better
RSU - you are canadian then I assume?
enderland thinks that RSU is a canadian pension like thing
Restricted Stock Units
7:02 PM
Ah, that's RRSP, not RSU
7:49 PM
Hey enderland, why the bounty on the old question?
> This is a common enough question that it'd be great to have more detailed answers for this.
I was revamping my own resume and wasn't sure how to best look into that and felt like that question would benefit from better answers :)
Ah cool, thanks for explaining :)
This doesn't add anything so I won't post it, but FYI the two top-voted answers are what I have personally seen as well
Yeah I was considering writing up my thoughts on it but I'm a bit preoccupied :)
There are definitely more of these questions.
Perhaps we should have meta collecting a FAQ or something.
8:19 PM
@Lilienthal who knows. there are only a few resume questions here...
8:51 PM
I took a personality test. I think I passed.
If you paid for it, you passed.
@TrevorArchibald especially if you were paid for it :D
You don't get paid for it, you just clear up your thetan. And that's payment enough.
Ive been paid to talk a lot of personality tests
it's kind of horrifying how many teambuilding things I've had to do already
9:16 PM
I scored really low on neuroticism.
10:00 PM
@AaronHall Something to work on then Aaron
I don't experience negative emotions easily.
@enderland we have some talkers who are moving into the desks next to us programmers. I think I can escape to an office, but the rest of my team will still be under assault. What do you think should help? a sign, "Programmers at work, quiet please"? a hedge of green plants? dropping some hints about my connections to powerful super-villains who wouldn't like their programmer friends being bothered? :)
2 hours later…
11:51 PM
ah well...
They're supposed to be programmers too, I hear.

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