Language Overflow

Q: Why is 'a' hard in 'sapid', but soft in 'sapient' and 'sapour'?

5:13 AM

Speaking of phonetics, we have this recent question on ELL:

2

sapid : [British English] /ˈsapɪd/ sapient : BrE /ˈseɪpiənt/ ; NAmE /ˈseɪpiənt/ sapour : /ˈseɪpɔː(r)/ /-pə(r)/ To wit, what explains the difference in pronunciation, between /a/ (eg, sapid) and /e/ (eg, sapient and sapour)? PS: I encountered the three words above from the etymolo...

I'm always confused by the terms "closed" and "open".

Also "hard" and "soft".

Anonymous

There's no such thing as a "hard a".

Anonymous

There's no such thing as a "soft a".

Anonymous

In Russian linguistics, the term "soft" is applied to consonants which are palatalized.

Anonymous

But that doesn't apply here.

Anonymous

Closed vowels are high vowels; open vowels are low vowels.

5:18 AM

@snailboat High and low as in the vowel chart, perhaps?

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yes, but

Oh, some of them are denoted "Close" and "Open", even!

Anonymous

The chart is a representation of vowel height, not where the concept comes from

Oh! Wait, where was the concept from?

Anonymous

The official terminology on the IPA chart is "closed" and "open" but I think people talk about "high" and "low" more often

Anonymous

5:20 AM

The chart is a visual representation of how the vowels are formed in the mouth.

Anonymous

Try saying /i/, and notice how your tongue comes right up near your palate (it's a palatal vowel)

Anonymous

Try saying /a/, and notice how your tongue goes down so the doctor can inspect your tonsils :-)

Anonymous

In America, at least, doctors traditionally ask patients to say /a/ before inserting a tongue depressor.

Same here.

Anonymous

The reason is because it's a low vowel―it gets the tongue in the right position to let them see your throat!

5:22 AM

Oh, actually /a/ is the word.

อ้า (reads "ah") ~ "open". :D

Anonymous

In other words, high and low are references to your tongue position.

Anonymous

Try going from /i/ to /a/ smoothly, and back. Where does your tongue move?

Anonymous

Next, look at the horizontal axis of the chart.

Anonymous

Try going from /i/ to /u/.

nods -- Though I think we can make the same sound (perceptually) from different positions.

I think that's what ventriloquists are very good at.

Anonymous

5:25 AM

I suppose doctors might actually ask you to say /ɑ/ rather than /a/ :-)

Anonymous

I don't know which one อ้า is more like.

As a word, I guess it's about /a/.

Though the dentists would want us to make the /ɑ/. :D

Anonymous

But anyway, think of that vowel chart as a big diagram of where your tongue goes.

Anonymous

The consonants are arranged systematically as well.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Japanese speakers can say an awful lot without moving their lips :-)

5:29 AM

Hah!

Anonymous

English in general requires much more lip movement.

Anonymous

Although if you want to speak Japanese clearly, lip movement is still important :-)

Most actors(?) in Japanese TV shows move their mouths exaggeratedly at times, imho. :-)

(in accompanied with big, colorful animated texts ;-)

Anonymous

Oh, well, there are some basic lip positions for the different Japanese vowels.

Anonymous

And people who are speaking in public are trained to exaggerate their lip movements and speak extra clearly.

Anonymous

5:35 AM

But when someone's just hanging out, talking to a friend, they don't always :-)

Anonymous

Some folks keep their lips pretty relaxed and make only small movements.

A: Word meaning "harmful to learning"?

It's funny that I've heard the same thing about English. :D

Like, in English, native speakers don't have to move their mouths at all.

Which was very confusing to me.

Because by definition, to produce "th" sounds, we have to stick our tongue out, at least a little bit.

(from an old question)

7

In my line of work, flight simulation and training, this is called negative training. A teaching device of any kind, whether it is a flight training device, or anything else, must be carefully designed so that it does not impart negative training. See this USAToday article that talks about it: ...

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. These people are called "mumblers" :-)

Anonymous

Of course, you can mumble in any language.

Anonymous

Clearly enunciating is a useful skill to have, though.

5:41 AM

nods -- I think between over and under-pronunciations, a learner would be better off with over-pronunciation.

Anonymous

By the way, I'm reading The Hobbit in Japanese again :-)

Anonymous

It's such a fun book!

Oh, that two-volume edition.

Anonymous

Yep!

\o

5:42 AM

BTW, the "negative training" in that answer reminds me of Crichton's Airframe and the series Air Crash Investigation.

I still don't understand how a movie could fit in a book.

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M o/

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M I was a bit surprised too when they announced that it was going to be a trilogy.

A spam of over 500 characters and there's no link

It's on Tumblr! -- Sadly, the text is very small for me.

Ahh... so it was spam.

Just click and open in new tab and zoom!

It's too small for me too.

5:45 AM

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Well, it would become very blurry!

Anonymous

I went online looking for a single-volume edition, and I found a new translation by a different author!

Anonymous

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M What?

How would you make a film from a book and vice versa if it isn't about science? O.O Just seems weird to me.

Oh, that's what you meant!

Anonymous

5:48 AM

@DamkerngT. The reviews suggest that the new translation isn't as good.

Anonymous

amazon.co.jp/…

All your hobbits are belong to us.

山本史郎's vs. 瀬田貞二's.

(Using the 's that way looks weird, btw. :-)

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Be careful with the meme, it could disrupt your English grammar proficiency!

I still haven't read the conditionals discussion, though. :(

All crappy English are belong to me know, AHHAHAHAWM

At the moment, I ask myself, why hasn't anyone made a complete list of all possible conditionals in English before.

Anonymous

5:53 AM

Oh, they did make a single-volume edition!

Anonymous

amazon.co.jp/…

Anonymous

It has Tolkien's illustrations instead of the Japanese illustrator's

I mean, I've seen a list of twenty-and-some cases of passive transformation made by an Indian English teacher.

Anonymous

And interestingly, it seems to be 横書き!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It would be very, very long.

Anonymous

5:54 AM

横書き yoko-gaki is lit. 'horizontal writing'

@snailboat The PDF for those passive transformation cases is long too, iirc.

Anonymous

Yoko-gaki books are written left-to-right, and start at the other cover of the book.

@snailboat I was about to ask! :D

Anonymous

Basically, they're written like English books.

Anonymous

The two-volume edition I have is 縦書き tate-gaki 'vertical writing', just like most Japanese novels are.

Anonymous

5:56 AM

amazon.co.jp/…

Anonymous

A one-volume tate-gaki edition!

@snailboat They have two "Paperback Bunko" buttons to choose from!

> Tuesday, Aug. 18 Order within 21 hrs 31 mins with "Expedited Shipping" or "Same Day Expedited Shipping".

Wow, I've never tried that.

Anonymous

Oh, that's new, I think.

Anonymous

It's okay. Delayed gratification is a good thing.

Anonymous

As much as the internet trains us to want to have everything available now! ;-)

6:02 AM

I tried to order a used one. Here is the result:

> Order Summary
Items: ￥ 1
Shipping & Handling: ￥ 823

Anonymous

Wow!

Shipping costs 82300% more than the book itself. :-)

Anonymous

I think that happens here, too :-)

Anonymous

I always just consider S&H to be part of the cost.

Anonymous

By the way, I like to buy books at my local Kinokuniya.

Anonymous

6:03 AM

But they don't have a really great selection overall.

Anonymous

Especially since they moved to a smaller location.

Anonymous

Plus, they mark stuff up more than what you'd find online.

Anonymous

It's just that I really like physical bookstores :-)

I've reissued my subscription to the local Kinokuniya, which theoretically will give me good discounts.

I think I've saved enough money to buy CGEL already, even. But somehow I'm still hesitating. :P

Anonymous

I think delayed gratification is good for the mind. Realizing you don't have to have everything right away.

Anonymous

6:05 AM

Delayed gratification

Delayed gratification, or deferred gratification, is the ability to resist the temptation for an immediate reward and wait for a later reward. Generally, delayed gratification is associated with resisting a smaller but more immediate reward in order to receive a larger or more enduring reward later. A growing body of literature has linked the ability to delay gratification to a host of other positive outcomes, including academic success, physical health, psychological health, and social competence. Walter Mischel has led the research on delayed gratification, most notably the Stanford marshmallow...

Anonymous

> A growing body of literature has linked the ability to delay gratification to a host of other positive outcomes, including academic success, physical health, psychological health, and social competence.

Anonymous

And you might ask―is that simply the result of an innate trait, and that trait results in all those positive outcomes?

Anonymous

Or is it something that can be learned and has a causal relationship with those outcomes?

Anonymous

And experimentally, it seems to be the latter.

nods -- I believe that virtually everything can be learned, at least partially.

Anonymous

6:09 AM

I'm a pretty strong believer in that sort of thing myself. :-)

Yay!

6:35 AM

Oh, I just came up with a curious case:

> The water in this glass and in that glass (is/are) not the same.

@DamkerngT. ares not the same.

I guess are flows better.

Me too.

Q: Short or long sentence to be fluent and formal

7:34 AM

0

The following is a simple sentence, I prefer to not be wordy, but sometimes I may think a longer sentence could be more clear or fluent. Through the application, the user can select any element of the page by moving the mouse over it and get access to its static and dynamic information. ...

style fluency

I think it's opinion-based, and the OP probably misses the points of good writing.

@DamkerngT. Ahmad is looking for writing advice in like, half of his questions.

I think it's more than half already.

Hmm, I'd make a good spammer if you ask me. — inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M 15 mins ago

Though it's true that it could always be a little scary for a learner to write in another language.

Q: Is superuser unfriendly to beginners? & How to help beginners understand

8:38 AM

@Dam I really loved this answer on meta.SU:

51

Background: I am a beginner with absolutely no Computer Science background. I am completely self-taught, which means that I only learn things as needed. As such, I know less basics than I should. However, my new job requires more of this knowledge than I have. And no, I don't really have the r...

discussion

Read it!

Please point out the points.

Read it when you have the time.

My explaining can't be as good as that guy's.

(The first answer)

"First" is not a very good description for an answer on SE/SO.

The top-voted.

I see. Thank you!

Writing good answers is in fact extremely hard, as they said.

8:43 AM

It's a cat, not a he . . .

Hehe! It also appears to me that SE algorithm for HNQ favors those quick, oversimplified, cut-and-dried answers.

Which could distort the stack, the quality of the stack, and could even discourage people from writing good answers on the stack.

Yes.

A lot of either quality or quantity tends to oppose the other one.

nods

It was a great answer.

I knew you'd say that.

Hehe this one's classic! @Dam

9:00 AM

I don't know what's on-topic the Skeptics stack, but the question looks like something a skeptic would ask. :P

10:03 AM

Oh hi @ArtOfCode

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Afternoon. Well, morning, I suppose.

I mean hullo.

@ArtOfCode Afternoon! It's 2:30 p.m. here.

Only 11:05 am in sunny (ha ha) UK.

Do you regularly meet ELL's chat? Haven't seen you before, I think. Scratches head

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Just poking my head in. I hover around ELL sometimes, though I don't actually participate around here.

10:06 AM

Hmm.

You guys must be looking at graduation soon.

I've been nagging over and over and over about why ELL doesn't graduate.

Hello, @ArtOfCode! Welcome to the room!

Oh, graduation. Everyone knows what I think about ELL graduation.

Well I think the SE team has Magento and Code Review to deal with first... but after that you're looking good, with your 30 questions per day.

SEs with 1/4th the size of ELL graduated and we didn't.

10:09 AM

It might be weird, but I don't think ELL is ready for graduation.

@DamkerngT. I think graduation or not-graduation isn't really going to affect those aspects of the site.

Oh I think you are

A new theme would be nice, though. :-)

This is a plenty mature site

The thing that might be holding you back is the number of 20kers

@ArtOfCode We occasionally get angry and swear at the wall because ELL has subtle voting problems.

10:11 AM

drafting a list for potential mods... hoping we don't get the wrong ones...

I count 6 20k users, which on a large site might not be quite enough.

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M I already gave up on the voting thing.

@ArtOfCode When chem graduated there was only 1 20k and it was Ron.

Talk to your mods. Get them to feature a meta post about voting. Code Review had "zombies" to kill, which was a good incentive.

@ArtOfCode Of 6, one is already an the ELL mod, one is a mod on another stack, one don't I think want to be a mod.

One I think don't want to be a mod either, though he's a regular on both ELU and ELL stacks.

10:14 AM

You could also ask an the ELL mod to talk to the SE team about getting a solid moderation team - it's fine if you don't have many 20ks, but as long as you've got a mod team who are active and police deletions.

The other two, hmm..., the other two. Let's skip it.

I can think of one or maybe two more names for the mod role.

Worldbuilding's mod team asked the SE team to get them another mod to help deal with the quantity of stuff, and they granted - maybe your team could ask for another too?

I wanna be a mod. Puppy eyes

How many mods would a newly graduated stack has?

@DamkerngT. 3 is the usual form for an election.

10:17 AM

I think it's the same number as the final number of beta mods. So you guys have 4, so you should get 4 elected.

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Come to think of it, maybe you should be. Wait, did you run for a mod on Chem.SE?

@ArtOfCode Well, the quality of the questions is not really outstanding, even if they're not abusive or spam.

@DamkerngT. No.

Jeez, you guys are popular in this room

Huh?

I think "regular" would be a better word. :-)

10:18 AM

You got 7 people who want access to the room

Look at your info/access page and the users under Requested Access.

Hah! Blame @Dam for that.

@ArtOfCode To which I chose to not to grant the access, purposely.

Pretty sure you can deny the request, if only to get rid of the cards there.

We had a lot of problems, more than enough, in the other room, and in yet another room, which is now frozen.

The mod-powers are itching... but I won't :)

10:20 AM

@ArtOfCode Oh, denying the request explicitly? -- looking...

Yeah, set them to no special access

What would happen if I clicked that? I mean, will the system make a notification or something?

I don't know... try it on one of them

I think it puts a message in the room if you add read or write rights.

I guess they wouldn't be around to tell me what'd happened. :-)

No special... I don't know.

Anyway, if it doesn't message nobody knows who did it...

10:23 AM

Try it on Arrowfar @Dam. He's been complaining in the other room and for a minute I thought @Art was here because of him.

sigh -- I don't want to touch that subject.

While I love him and you, I think you two should be separate.

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M In technicality I was, because there's been chatter about it. Nothing to do about it though :)

Well, he wants conversation, I understand that; but @Dam chose to be in this room so further conflict will be avoided.

I guess that my name or my room would be mentioned all over the network, probably not in a very good way.

Though I would never do that unless I was asked first.

10:25 AM

@DamkerngT. I haven't seen anybody talking about you, actually :)

@ArtOfCode Just the room, then. :-)

I've seen me talking about him.

Aye, that got a link

OK, status-confirmed: denying access doesn't notify.

Best thing about mod privs in chat? I can change who posts feeds.

What do you mean by who?

Instead of posted by the Stack Exchange user. I can change that to anything else

10:29 AM

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M ArtOfCode just deny a user. It was someone you just suggested.

@ArtOfCode Like?

Let's see (and yes, I will undo this):

Stack Exchange

ArtOfCode has made a change to the feeds posted into this room

...and we wait for the feed to update

10:32 AM

@ArtOfCode It has been updated.

@DamkerngT. By "update" I mean "start posting"

That would take some time.

Usually about 5 minutes... ish.

Mostly less.

Occasionally more.

I doubt that. If the ELL feed is only for new question, it could take way longer.

30 Qs/day usually come in bursts.

As far as I can tell, about 60-70% of the questions are from a handful of users.

When you add a feed, it initially posts everything in the feed - so it'll update before new questions come in and just post the old ones.

10:34 AM

Oh, true!

So we'll be seeing To Be + Possessive verb soon

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M We'll get there. Eventually.

Still waiting, STILL WAITING

Damn feeds.

Let's say we know how it works. :-)

10:36 AM

DO I NEED TO POST THAT IMAGE THE THIRD TIME MR. @FEEDS?

> Feeds: plz don't sir i'm trying

@Art @Dam

WOO FINALLY

That got posted by Meta Data

We should celebrate or something!

10 mins ago, by inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Here's an image to stare at.

10:47 AM

And now I delete them because they're annoying, and remove the feed again.

Stack Exchange

ArtOfCode has stopped a feed from being posted into this room

11:08 AM

I hope I don't have to go through an unpleasant chat experience again...

Me neither. I'll kick you two out if things get outta hand.

No worries. I don't talk in the other room as often as I used to.

I just don't want mods to crop up in the room and judge anything based on insufficient information.

They won't need to. Because there isn't going to be any conflict. ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)

And as they say, "Don’t write out a long explanation of why you are right."

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M I think one possible solution is you accommodating folks in the other room more often.

I'm there if they wanna talk. "ELL's Cabin" is the least active tab among my browser tabs.

They wanna talk with someone, I'm there, but there's already a topic here, and none there; so they have to be a conversation-starter @Dam.

11:22 AM

nods

11:34 AM

@Dam

Are you plotting something with Jim? ಠ_ಠ

Hah! -- Oh! -- Um, from which stack?

AskUbuntu.

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M I haven't seen him around much lately.

I hope that it wasn't because of any language boundaries.

The AU thingy?

"Plotting to kill you" is a common phrase, so I guess the OP didn't mean anything else.

11:38 AM

It's different on different stacks, I suppose.

Are you suggesting that we should try analyzing the language of trolling? :-)

Yes.

That reminds me of a book about texting...

Some people need a hobby . . .

It seems like in general, they don't care much about spelling or punctuation.

11:43 AM

Just get their messages out to be seen, perhaps?

I +1 the comment . . .

It looks like my next browser crash is coming...

I really wonder what goes through their mind when people post crap like this.

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M I can guess a lot of things, though it's probably not worth anyone's time guessing that.

Some people just want to.

12:36 PM

Your second sentence does not make any sense to me. "this" and "other" do not go well together. Your sentence could be paraphrased: "Keep doing this, doing something other than this." The second phrase applies to the first phrase; it is an adverbial modifier which you refuse to believe. — TRomano yesterday

Oh, that's the second!

These seconds and firsts are gonna get me killed in the end.

From the only answer at the moment:

yesterday, by Damkerng T.

> The second sentence seems incorrect to me.

yesterday, by Damkerng T.

> "you had better keep doing this, figuring out other complicated problems"

It's interesting that two native (I think) speakers think that the sentence doesn't make any sense.

The OP mentioned that they tried to imitate this example:

> The AOA recommends washing glasses everyday, paying special attention to the frames and earpieces,where hair product and make-up tend to rub off.

The comma gives me the impression the act in the first clause is going to happen in alignment with the second one. Am not surprised they think it doesn't work.

(via: ell.stackexchange.com/q/64378/3281)

@DamkerngT. Why did I read that vial: ell.stackexchange.com/q/64378/3281? O.O

12:41 PM

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M I think maybe I'm just weird to think that it makes sense, even with the two clauses are happening at the same time.)

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M I don't know!

@DamkerngT. I know I know, I think your robotic sense is to blame. Almost everything makes sense to you in a very "lunar" context.

Hah!

While a normal human would think something doesn't make sense if it only happens 0.0000000000000000000000000001% of the time.

Even ngram would show a zero.

What was the search string you used?

I didn't.

Use.

Search.

String.

12:44 PM

Hehe! And you claimed such a claim. :D

Oh, I just saw the word would.

ᕙ(⇀‸↼‶)ᕗ

Should get a new pair of eyes. (Like WALL-E).

I'm the master.

@DamkerngT. My brother feels in love with that film.

It's one of my favorites!

Well, you know what I think about robots. :-)

A: Why is "of" instead of "to" used here?

1:33 PM

6

It is grammatical. Although pay homage to (or homage to) is a common phrase, homage of is also possible. An example of homage of can be found in Macmillan Dictionary. homage noun [singular/uncountable] b. a formal speech or action by which people show their loyalty to a king or leader...

Not a recent answer, but it could be useful soon.

Ah, thanks!

Q: Present continues or simple in relative clause?

0

I wrote this sentence The node features, which are used to create a condition, are selected from a list showing the available features or The node features, which are used to create a condition, are selected from a list, which shows the available features Why?

relative-clauses present-continuous

Which sentence did he wrote? OMG

But it's not in the present progressive/continuous (or continues).

He's asking I wrote this sentence or this one?

I think he wrote both.

1:53 PM

Hmm...

> 1) a list of available features

> 2) a list of the available features

> 3) a list of all available features

> 4) a list of all the available features

> 5) the list of available features

> 6) the list of the available features

> 7) the list of all available features

> 8) the list of all the available features

I think I like 7 or 8 the most.

(inspired by: ell.stackexchange.com/a/64532/3281)

In an appropriate context, it could even be the available features list. (Also possible, the "available features" list.)

I wish to post this in the main room, but it looks like its state is in flux. So until it becomes stable again, I'll do the for-the-main stuff here.

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Where is your stock message for homework questions?

0

Q: A grammer question

I am just practising some english grammar. , here is the question I am confused about : Question: Fibers of hair and wool are not continuous and must normally be spun into thread _____ woven into textile fabrics. (A) as are they (B) when to be (C) that they are (D) If they are to be Its cor...

grammar

2:21 PM

Good afternoon @DamkerngT.

Good evening!

Someone wrote this -

I think this is wrong, and didn't make much sense.

> Replace HE WAS USED TO DRIVE by HE GOT USED TO DRIVING (part ‘A’). Here the reference is not past habit, so USED TO DRIVE is wrong. Here we mean TO BECOME ACCUSTOMED/FAMILIAR TO SOMETHING. But time reference is also there so it will be GOT USED TO DRIVING, not WAS USED TO DRIVING.

Last two lines are confusing. Is there any difference between "was used to driving" and "got used to driving"?

I think there is.

From this explanation I couldn't understand the difference :-(

Though saying "replace by" hints that the writer probably is a non-native speaker.

2:27 PM

Yes he is

@Man_From_India It's the same difference between "get used to" and "be used to".

I found this one in an website. This one is from a comment there.

@DamkerngT. Yes...right... I can't explain the difference, but i think with "got" it says more of a process over some time.

Yes, I think you could say that.

Basically, one roughly means "to become", the other simply means "to be".

> I'm not used to driving, so I learn how to drive. I learn to drive because I want to get used to driving. Soon, I will be able to drive. I will be used to driving.

@DamkerngT. Exactly :-) got it.

2:43 PM

(inspired by Sri Lankan election...)

(about politicians and the truth)

> I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

From Cloud Atlas (2012):

> Archivist: On behalf of my Ministry and the future of Unanimity, I want to thank you for the final interview. Remember, this isn't an interrogation or trial. Your version of the truth is all that matters.

> Sonmi-451: Truth is singular. Its "versions" are mistruths.

Anonymous

3:03 PM

I used to drive = past habitual. I'm used to driving = driving is something I've done enough that I'm familiar with doing and it's no longer surprising/unusual/unfamiliar. I've gotten used to driving = same but with inchoative meaning

Anonymous

(Gotten is AmE)