Language Overflow

6:27 AM

0

Q: Does the meaning of a sentence change when we replace "and" with a comma?

Is "you had better keep doing this and figuring out other complicated problems" equal to "you had better keep doing this, figuring out other complicated problems"

american-english

It's clear that our new user, 오준수, is going to tackle English participles until they can get through.

Which is a good thing, imho.

But English participles, when we take a closer look at it, are not a small subject.

I believe that most speakers go by their intuition how they should relate participial phrases or clauses to the rest of the sentence.

Which makes participles very, very flexible.

I don't have a good answer, analytically.

Though I'm sure that the meaning part is not big a problem for most speakers.

(Even though I couldn't help but wonder if all speakers will arrive at the same meaning all the time.)

For one thing, NZD wrote in their answer that:

> The second sentence seems incorrect to me.

To aid reading the chat log, here is the second sentence:

> "you had better keep doing this, figuring out other complicated problems"

(Oh, I wish the OP would've punctuated and capitalized everything properly.)

Damkerng T.

8:49 AM

(from an old question)

-1

A: What's the shortest phrase to describe Q&A sites like Stack Exchange?

I agree with everything said, however if your learning English you should use the term website since site is not grammatically correct, although it is very commonly used. Q&A or Question and Answer are really very similar. I'm active participant of the community question and answer website ca...

It's ironic that they advised learners to use website (because in their opinion, site is not grammatically correct) while they typed your for you're.

Damkerng T.

10:44 AM

0

Q: qualities outweigh the dangers does

I am confused when analysing the sentence below, especially the grammatical structure. He emphasized that only when the positive qualities outweigh the dangers does healthy psychosocial development take place. I have these questions: I cannot justify the word does in the sentence. ...

grammar meaning

I vaguely remember that the inversion is necessary in this pattern.

(But I'm still too busy to look it up in any books.)

StoneyB

11:05 AM

@Shoe I'm lurking in the Language Overflow room if you want to temper my rants against n-conditionals!

Hi @DamkerngT.

Damkerng T.

@StoneyB Hi!

Is this Shoe we are talking about?

Shoe, Germany

16.2k 2 17 46

grammar grammaticality tenses word-choice meaning prepositions verbs

Or this Shoe?

Shoe, United States

5.2k 1 18 44

c# asp.net-mvc-5 wpf asp.net-mvc entity-framework asp.net asp.net-identity

Hmm... I guess it's the first Shoe.

StoneyB

@Dam It's the first one. He's an ESL teacher at a very prestigious high school in Germany, and we're arguing about my pet peeve, n-conditionals.

Damkerng T.

nods -- An invitation to Shoe is underway.

StoneyB

Hi Shoe!

Shoe

German Shoe has just stepped in.

StoneyB

11:20 AM

So where were we?

Shoe

Forgive my ignorance of how chat works, but is this the right place to continue our discussion abut conditionals?

StoneyB

Well, we could do a room of our own - but I think this is of such general interest that it would be appropriate here, which is a room @DamkerngT. has set up for strictly linguistic chat, as opposed to phatic chat. With any luck we'll get people who know a lot more than I do weighing in, like snailboat and Araucaria and FE

Damkerng T.

@Shoe Welcome to the room!

I'm sorry that I'm still a little busy at the moment, so I'm afraid that I can't fully engage in the conversation.

Shoe

Thanks to you both. It's good to be joining such potentially illustrious company. I actually wrote a long screed while waiting at the doctors the other day. Give me a minute to copy it to this computer - although I fear I might exceed some word count limit!

Damkerng T.

I'm quite certain that our discussion will turn out to be interesting and useful, in any case. Catch up with you guys later.

Shoe

11:29 AM

Ok, I've been pretty busy recently (new school year coming up!), and haven't got a lot more to say. To answer the OP's question: Yes, some ELT sources would call the sentence a mixed conditional as it contains a combination of verb forms that do not appear in what are called the 0-3 conditionals. As to whether it is grammatical, yes it is; and I am a little surprised that you suggest in your last paragraph that the OP not emulate it. Following Lewis, we can justify the verb form in each clause based on the communicative intent of the speaker. The statement could be interpreted as follows: …

StoneyB

I'm willing to accept that my characterization of the n-conditionals as 'rubbish' may be "unnecessarily derogatory", and I will be more careful of that in the future.

But it is rooted in the experience I've had on this site, where many (if not most) of the questions about conditionals appear to reflect a belief that the n-conditionals-as-actually-taught are regarded as an exhaustive typology. I'm sure you realize that your own very scholarly understanding of English grammar is not shared by the vast majority of your colleagues in the field ....

Shoe

Each year in my classes i have new students from different countries, many of whom have been taught the 0-3 conditionals, and other simplistic stuff about articles, etc. I think it is better to avoid undermining their confidence in what they have learned and move them from their current starting point to a more nuanced understanding. After all, if they think they have been taught rubbish in the past they may well believe that they could be taught rubbish by me in the future!

StoneyB

... particularly in the US, where the education establishment actively discourages the formal study of grammar.

Shoe

11:46 AM

Yes, I would have to admit that it is pure conjecture on my part that most teachers avoid simplistic rule-based instruction in this aspect of grammar.

StoneyB

lol! ... I myself come out of a background where the Beginning of Wisdom is skepticism -- in the first instance about what one "knows", and in the second about what one is being taught, so belligerent antinomianism is sorta my natural dialect. But I do have serious objections to the n-conditionals as a framework for understanding.

Shoe

I think there is an even greater resistance to the formal study of grammar in the UK - nt that I would agree that the study of this aspect of grammar is worthy of precious instructional time. It would be nice however if most students ended their education being abe to name the word classes and knowing what a clause or phrase is.

Antinomianism is a word that I have not come across before. I'll have to work it into dinner time chat with my wife and daughter. They'll be impressed!

StoneyB

Well, be careful -- that one's a calculated rhetorical misuse! ...

Me, I'm fond of formal grammar - I come from a generation which was taught foreign languages with a good deal of emphasis on morphology and syntax, so for me grammar is the high road to getting my head around texts.

Shoe

Ha. I think we've exhausted the conditional thing. Experiencing the first cool wet day in Frankfurt since March (or so it seems), I've had bit of time to work on an answer to a featured question on ELU, about themself, as in "Someone has helped themself to my milk" (interestingly, but unsurprisingly underlined as incorrect in this entry). What's your take on this. To me as a Brit, this is perfectly acceptable.What's your take on it?

StoneyB

Unexceptionable in a colloquial context - problematic in more formal contexts, but unlikely to appear there, so ignorable.

I think it raises a matter that's sorta critical on this site, though, where so many of the learners are looking not for English-as-she-is-spoken but English-which-will-get-me-into a US/UK university or graduate school.

Shoe

12:01 PM

I agree that one would be ill-advised to write it in formal contexts, knowing the number of readers out there lying in wait for the next opportunity to be enraged by how someone expresses themself! But, interestingly, the estimable Garner in his Modern American Usage reports that themself is used in legal contexts in Canada.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@DamkerngT. Are we talking about shoes?

OK now is n-conditional the retired IUPAC name for normal-conditional?

@StoneyB Misfire . . .

I'm in.

StoneyB

The language is indeed shifting. ... But there's a lot of phoniness around the whole singular-they thing. It is quite true that they/them/their/themself/&c has a distinguished history with indefinite referents; but it is not at all true that this justifies extension to definite referents.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

I might warn you though; I'm not in in the conversation, just in. Ping me if it's necessary.

StoneyB

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M n-conditional is my idiolectic term for 1st- / 2nd- / 3rd- / nth conditionals.

Shoe

I agree with your comment about what learners want. That's why I'm always a bit wary about, for example, answering questions about backshift. It may well be that learners need to prove in exams that they know how to do this, so pointing out actual language in use frequently does not backshift may well be unhelpful.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

12:06 PM

Haa, but since they're being taught in Iran, I'm pretty sure something's wrong with them or that system of teaching.

StoneyB

Ho, ho, 'backshift' is a well-gnawed bone around here - ask Araucaria some time about 'backshift' and you will find that my rhetorical exaggerations pale! ... I've started playing around with a distinction between 'backshift' (for temporal relocation) and 'sideshift' (for modal relocation). Someday that will turn into a Canonical Post on modal verbs -- and then there will be some sort of foundation for a CP on conditionals.

Shoe

There's a recent Language Log on the use of oneself as a definite referent, as in The nurse who has a low opinion of oneself, which Mark Lieberman call this 'jarring'.

StoneyB

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Not everything that is taught is myth; just most of it.

Yes; we're trying to take Great Mother English somewhere she doesn't want to go, so she's just sitting there laughing at us while we try to evolve through Present-day English into Early New English.

Shoe

Ok, time to step out again (Mahlzeit!). I'll check back later to catch up on the latest contributions.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Early new English as in IF YOU ARE BLONG TO PROGRAMING, CN U HALP ME? CODEZ NO WERKING?

StoneyB

12:14 PM

Enjoy your students!

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Later @Shoe!

StoneyB

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M I don't think that's where English will actually go, because it's a written dialect. But we're in the middle of (by linguistic standards) rapid change in all registers. I wish I could be around to see where we are in a hundred years.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

You've been around for three hundred years . . . Fool death for the next century!

StoneyB

Thanks to the Miracle of Writing I have, like everybody else, including you, been around for millennia; but alas, it only works retrospectively.

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M By the way, I've been meaning to ask: do you refer to your native language as Persian or as Farsi?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@StoneyB When I'm speaking Persian, I call it Farsi. When I'm speaking English, I prefer Persian better.

The two words are of the same source; the difference in pronunciation arose and eventually evolved into separate spellings, but it's simply just Parsi.

I don't think it's anything above stylic choice.

StoneyB

12:29 PM

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Style is self-revelation ... May I ask Why you prefer Persian?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

For instance, lots of PhDs in Persian literature prefer to refer to it as Farsi in their English research.

@StoneyB Maybe because it's Persia, not Farsia or something like that.

And the evolution of /p/ to /f/ has been observed in recent Persian grammar.

But the Proper names are Proper names, I don't like a change in them.

Thus, the majority of the poems we study are using the /p/ ~~word~~ version.

StoneyB

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M I've always used Persian for the ancient empires - the Achaemenids, the Ptolemies, the Seleucids - and Farsi for the modern language. But I can very readily understand that you might want a term which embraced your entire cultural heritage.

Parsi might be a good compromise - but unfortunately that term has been co-opted in English to refer to the Zoroastrians in India.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

3:29 PM

@StoneyB Hmm  . . . interesting.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

3:43 PM

Man_From_India

4:51 PM

Do you think there is any difference in meaning and usage between since then and from then on? I posted an answer for Nima's question, and there I mentioned that there is no difference. This clearly opposes an answer in ELU. What do you think?

0

A: How to distinguish between:from then on" and" since then"?

Then refers to a point of time or a particular event. So since then means that the time since that point of time. And from then on means from that particular time onward. They basically have the same meaning. I don't think there is any difference in meaning. I also don't think that one is used...

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Man_From_India For Nima's level, there is definitely no difference.

Hmm. There's an interesting difference.

Man_From_India

Oh I see...I thought there is no difference?

I think I have to rewrite that answer again, with more careful attention.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

I'm not really sure if I'm authoritative enough to really tell if it's dialectal, or the difference is no more, or if the difference is not a real difference.

We need @snail for that.

Man_From_India

No you are the third person who said there is a difference. In ELU answer two people said there is.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Man I actually can't find a page that actually discusses the difference between the two.

Man_From_India

5:04 PM

In Nima's question, one people commented he link.

Ok let me past that link here.

0

Q: "From then on" or "since then"?

Do these two expressions mean the same or are they used in different contexts? I wrote "Since then" in an essay for my English teacher but she wrote me "from then on" instead. I wanted to say that two children have lived alone since the moment when their parents died, so I wrote Since then, ...

expressions

The voted answer says there is a difference. And other answerer agreed on that.

But I for one think there is no difference. Though now I have to consider that two phrase carefully again. I have to do some search. I will modify my answer later, if I find something.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

MFI why are you saying there isn't?

Man_From_India

(I might be wrong) I think then in both phrases indicate a particular point of time. Since that time. It does not say whether the event being described since then is still going on in the present or not. A context will decide that. The same thing for from then on.

Hi @Catija

You can say something about this.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Cat we need your hippo's idea on this.

Catija

What's up?

Man_From_India

Is there any difference in meaning and usage between since then and from then on?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

5:12 PM

What's the difference between from then on and since when?

Apart from the fact that "since when" has an S and "from then on" has a T

Catija

Generally, I'd say they mean the same but I'd use them in very different situations.

Man_From_India

Like?

Catija

When I was in college I studied math but since then I haven't done any math at all.

I would not use "from then on" in this sentence.

Well, there is one big difference... "Since then" doesn't include "then". "from then on" does.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Precisely. And MFI keeps telling me they're not different.

Catija

When I started college my major was mathematics but I changed it in my junior year. From then on, my major was physics.

Man_From_India

5:26 PM

Hmmm so since then says the action is still continuing. Is it something like that? How one be sure if one phrase is suitable in a particular situation?

CopperKettle

9:38 PM

"Place for the rest" (0:

Anonymous

11:35 PM

My phrase of the day is concern trolling. I haven't found a precise definition online. I've found definitions, but they don't seem to match the way it's used, as far as I can tell...

Anonymous

Still, most folks on Urban Dictionary seem to agree on the basic meaning: urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=concern+troll

Anonymous

theconglomerate.org/2015/08/…

Transcript for