The Nineteenth Byte

Geobits

7:00 PM

I crafted four bronze just last night. Was a first for me, also.

Optimizer

that's pretty low for a blacksmith

durron597

> A program in one of the below languages that produces the same output as the Brainfuck program on all inputs.

Rainbolt

I got excited because I thought @Geobits was playing Minecraft :(

durron597

@nderscore Is that not clear in a way I'm missing? Maybe something about Javascript?

nderscore

I made a comment in the sandbox post

Geobits

7:02 PM

@Optimizer I just started the blacksmith route. Mainly a Hunter. Like I said, it was a first :P

@Rainbolt I play it sometimes, mostly with my kid.

Optimizer

@Rainbolt @Doorknob plays Minecraft.

Martin Büttner

@Optimizer only if the scoring is the output size

(is it?)

Rainbolt

Oooooooh I know what I am going to do

Optimizer

@MartinBüttner oh, is that the creteria ? But this looks like some kind of meta

Martin Büttner

no it doesn't seem to be

nderscore

7:03 PM

@durron597 So the solution should be a program or function that accepts a BF program as a String and output a String of compiled code. What format should the input/output of the resulting compiled code be? Is it okay for this compiled code to be a function also? Should it also use strings/stdio for input/output?

Martin Büttner

@Optimizer it's code-generation

metagolf is a winning criterion

durron597

@nderscore No, of uncompiled code

nderscore

I'm wondering what the rules for the compiled (BF->whatever) code should be as far as input/output and format.

Right now, you've only defined rules for the solution which does the compiling.

durron597

It must be a complete program that produces exactly the same output as the brainfuck program on all inputs

Rainbolt

I'm going to write a challenge that provides a directed acyclic graph as input. The graph will be made up of modded Minecraft machines that connect to each other. The output must be the most compact solution that satisfies the graph. Then I can condense my entire ore production into the least amount of blocks without thinking too hard

durron597

7:05 PM

@nderscore Incorrect, it's all there in the post

Is it really that unclear?

nderscore

> "The outputted program only receives the same input that would be received by the Brainfuck program. The outputted program does not receive the Brainfuck program as input."

durron597

@Rainbolt Challenge: input: truth table. output: redstone circuit that produces the same truth table output using levers for the input signals

nderscore

This doesn't clearly define the input/output, or whether or not the resulting compiled code can be a function.

durron597

@nderscore It can't be, a function would not do the same as a brainfuck program

Rainbolt

@durron597 modded MC actually has pipes and stuff. They can transport electricity, items, etc.

durron597

7:09 PM

for example, in java, class Foo {void bar() {System.out.println("Hello World");}} is not the same as Brainfuck Hello World

neither is void bar() {System.out.println("Hello World");}, obviously.

but class Foo {public static void main(String[]a) {System.out.println("Hello World");}} is the same.

Optimizer

Is there a proof that maximal concatenated product will always consists of 2 numbers formed by the input ?

Martin Büttner

@Optimizer yeah, I'm pretty sure that's quite easy to show

you can probably show that abcdefg > abc*defg where abcdefg are (and arbitrary number of) arbitrary digits.

Optimizer

what will that prove ?

we have to prove that abc*defg > abc*de*fg (or any other 3 number combination)

nderscore

// JavaScript function converts BF to JavaScript:
F(",[>++<-].") // returns some new string of code

// Possible result: (code which takes each character of input as a prompt and outputs each character of output in an alert)
x={},i=0;x[i]=prompt().charAt();for(;x[i];){i++;x[i]=x[i]|0+1;x[i]=x[i]|0+1;i--;}alert(String.fromCharCode(x[i]))

// Possible result: (function that takes full input as a string and outputs full output as string)
(z,i=j=0,x={},o='')=>{x[i]=z.charAt(j++);for(;x[i];){i++;x[i]=x[i]|0+1;x[i]=x[i]|0+1;i--;}o+=String.fromCharCode(x[i]);return o}

randomra

@Optimizer concatenate any n-digit number at the end > multiply by 10^n > multiply the n-digit number

Martin Büttner

7:17 PM

@Optimizer I think that follows by induction

nderscore

@durron597 Like I said, you defined program structure/input/output for the solution, but not for the resulting compiled code.

durron597

10a + b > ba + b > ba

100a + b (0 <= b <= 99) > ba + b > ba

That logic ought to trivially hold for all n \in (10^n)*a

@nderscore There's no such thing as a prompt in brainfuck

How are stdin questions normally done in javascript?

Martin Büttner

@durron597 Some questions use "STDIN or closest alternative" where the prompt is then said closest alternative.

also I think prompts are an allowed input method by default

nderscore

If you use spidermonkey commandline or nodejs, you can do actual stdin/out :) but in the browser, you can't and in most cases we use prompt/alert

durron597

@MartinBüttner But in this case should there be a separate prompt for every character or one for the entire input string?

Martin Büttner

7:23 PM

@nderscore of course... but that's horrible to golf :P

nderscore

I golf spidermonkey all the time on golf.shinh.org ;)

Martin Büttner

@durron597 I'd probably prompt once and interpret that as slurping the entire STDIN.

durron597

I could also accept both sorts of programs as acceptable.

Choose the one that's golfier for you.

nderscore

I'm going to make my solution output spidermonkey commandline code just for fun :P

Doorknob

@Optimizer uhhh, no I don't

Optimizer

7:36 PM

err. I meant to ping CH

durron597

@Doorknob You still playing Nethack?

Doorknob

@durron597 Of course. :D

(currently trying to ascend a Tourist)

Optimizer

wow, a 1987 game ?

Doorknob

But yeah, Nethack is the only game. All other games are just reskinned versions of Nethack.

3

durron597

@Doorknob Ugh, the devnull site is broken. can't see what the final standings were

I know I ascended 8 characters or so. Got really tired of my boring fighter types (samurai) dying

Optimizer

8:07 PM

wow, user23013 + Dennis = total mayhem!

Martin Büttner

@Optimizer every single time

Optimizer

no. they collab very rarely

Martin Büttner

wait, they collaborated? I just thought both of them individually :D

Optimizer

yup. maximal concat product

12 bytes

Martin Büttner

just found it

that is amazing

Optimizer

8:14 PM

for comparison, my cjam is 35 and pyth is 25 :D

nobody collaborated with me on double helix :(

oh! strikethroughs don't get inverted when selected!

Martin Büttner

that actually looks nice

randomra

if CJam doesn't have error-handling why isn't there an implicit 0 at the bottom of the stack?

Martin Büttner

@aditsu this ^

although in CJam I might personally prefer an implicit "", I haven't quite settled on that.

Optimizer

you were all about 0 back then

randomra

it could be the "identity" element for each operator but that would be a lot of work & disagreement

Martin Büttner

8:23 PM

actually, the best thing would be if there is an operator to switch it

imagine what you could do if you could put an infinite number of anything at the bottom of the stack

Optimizer

Is the bonus scoring clear in this ?

Rainbolt

After the OP addressed all of the comments, this question got four more close votes but zero more comments. Can someone explain?

It only had one close vote before I absorbed the author's comments into the question.

Anyway, don't respond to me. Leave a comment. Four of the votes came in after the author responded to the comments that are there. So that's four people who apparently have an issue that hasn't been resolved by the already existing comments.

Meanwhile I'm voting to reopen

aditsu

8:41 PM

@randomra mainly because it would make it harder to debug

Martin Büttner

@aditsu :(

add better debugging features then

configurable implicit objects on the stack bottom would be the killer feature

Optimizer

all Peter cared about in a very bad question was s/odd/Sophie

Rainbolt

@Optimizer I think that simply removing the bonus would improve the question greatly. What do you think?

For input n, print the first n Sophie whatevers.

Optimizer

@Rainbolt yeah, that would be much better

Rainbolt

What rep is needed for chat?

Doorknob

8:53 PM

20, IIRC

randomra

@Rainbolt The last comment (with 3 upvotes + me now) hasn't been answered.

yeah it's 20

I directed him here

Hello.

Hello. You already made the edit we were talking about

I guess the question now is, what is the input?

Or is there no input, and programs are expected to run eternally?

Wait, did you just comment that you are not permitted to chat, and then show up and say hello?

He just confirmed that there is no limit. So it's a run eternally challenge with no input.

Kind weird that he pops in and then comments that he can't chat.

Maybe he got suspended for offensive material on another chat.

user3502615

9:00 PM

I have not participated in any chats so far

The stackexchange website said I need reputation on the general StackExchange "forums" for some reason

Rainbolt

We have a forums? That is news to me.

Doorknob

Reputation for the purposes of chat is shared cross-network (and you have more than 20 rep on Physics, so you can chat anywhere on chat.SE).

And no, Stack Exchange is not a forum.

user3502615

I understand that , but didn't know what to call SE

Doorknob

It's a network of Q&A sites.

(granted, PPCG doesn't really fit under that categorization, but it's... different)

durron597

@user3502615 stackexchange.com/tour

aditsu

9:10 PM

@MartinBüttner crashing when popping from empty stack is a debugging feature :)

Martin Büttner

...

it's such a waste of potential

Doorknob

@aditsu I could see something like cjam -d program.cjm being useful, where specifying the -d flag causes warnings such as "pop from empty stack," etc.

Martin Büttner

^

Optimizer

Dennis vs Peter

live now

Martin Büttner

:D

durron597

9:14 PM

@Optimizer s/$/ vs Maltysen/

Martin Büttner

@Optimizer are you refusing to do the tree challenge because it offends your sense of nature? ;)

Optimizer

I don't care about Pyth when Dennis and Peter are going head to head

@MartinBüttner not my sense of nature

the whole nature!

Martin Büttner

I don't hear nature complaining :P

Optimizer

Do you ever ?

Martin Büttner

no. my point.

Optimizer

9:16 PM

Poor nature. Takes all the cruelty of the mankind

silently

anyways I have no clue how to proceed on it for now

Martin Büttner

@Optimizer I think there was a great quote by George Carlin about that, but I can't be bothered to search for it now...

randomra

@Optimizer nature just doesn't care

no onebox?

Doorknob

Can't onebox https.

randomra

@Doorknob yours still became bigger :)

Rainbolt

That's what he said

Doorknob

9:24 PM

@randomra please never ever onebox direct image URLs again :P Normal links still onebox, but they also keep the hovertext intact.

Rainbolt

Wow that was harsh

Doorknob

Possible punishments for 3 violations of oneboxing direct xkcd links include burning at the stake and being forced to use Yahoo Answers.

randomra

when started reading I though I'm broking the internet

Optimizer

@Rainbolt wow :D

I don't think that it works like that though :P

Abdou Abdou

breaking*

nderscore

9:26 PM

5 violations and you get a paddling and sent to experts exchange

borking*

^

thought*

Crap, that immature moment just reminded me. I was going to download a texture pack and take pictures of my Minecraft base over the weekend and I failed.

Doorknob

reskinned Nethack base*

2 hours ago, by Doorknob

But yeah, Nethack is the only game. All other games are just reskinned versions of Nethack.

durron597

9:30 PM

@Doorknob You're welcome :)

Rainbolt

There was almost a mod to implement nethack in Minecraft minecraftforum.net/forums/mapping-and-modding/minecraft-mods/…

Which, according to Doorknob's theory, really means implementing Nethack in Nethack

durron597

@Rainbolt omg.

Doorknob

@durron597 haha :D

@Rainbolt that... would have been glorious

durron597

Has anyone even ported Nethack to Java?

also, there's a huge problem of visibility

Doorknob

Except he says he'd have used the image graphics. ASCII graphics are best graphics.

Rainbolt

9:32 PM

@durron597 openhub.net/p/jhack

durron597

and the fact that monsters in ~~Minecraft~~ Nethack don't move in realtime

Rainbolt

T̶h̶e̶y̶ ̶d̶o̶n̶'̶t̶?̶

durron597

oops

Doorknob

Well, they're the same thing anyway.

Rainbolt

My big toes they are the same.

I wish there was a Terraria mod for Minecraft. As you gain achievements, new people show up and live in your village.

Blood moon would really test the defenses.

durron597

9:36 PM

@Rainbolt That was free on xbox gold recently; is it good? I haven't played it yet

Assassin's Creed 4 was also free on xbox gold recently so I started that first.

Rainbolt

@durron597 What was free? Terraria or Minecraft?

Martin Büttner

@Rainbolt yay for Terraria!

Rainbolt

You know how I feel about MC so assuming you were asking about Terraria, yes, it is good. I wouldn't enjoy it singleplayer though. It's an amazing multiplayer game.

Martin Büttner

I also liked it single player.

durron597

@Rainbolt Terraria.

Martin Büttner

9:39 PM

It just feels less sandboxy and more content-rich while still giving you quite amazing creative freedom.

Doorknob

I used to play that, I think. Don't remember much though.

Rainbolt

I found the singleplayer pace to be too slow. And I played with friends who gave me my creative space and didn't fight bosses until everyone was online.

And every single time somebody found a cool place, they spoke up and we all rushed over

durron597

Ok so reading the wikipedia about it, it's basically 2d minecraft with bosses?

Rainbolt

I think that's accurate

Martin Büttner

I first played (single player) with my girlfriend a couple of years ago and basically cleared everything before hard mode (and then decided to stop, because I was at 60 hours of play time, and figured if I did hard mode as well that would grow to 200)... and then we played some multiplayer earlier this year as well, which was also nice, but I don't remember single player being boring at all.

Rainbolt

9:42 PM

It has more of a progression out of the box than Minecraft does. However, Minecraft has mods that add more of a progression.

Hard mode doesn't add much in the way of playtime

durron597

@Rainbolt Not if you only play console minecraft.

Martin Büttner

@durron597 and more interesting biomes, I think (and probably also a lot more equipment tiers, but I haven't played Minecraft in forever)

Tim

Yes! I rewrote my controlled assessment in LOLCODE and it works! 9778 lines of amazingness!

Martin Büttner

@Rainbolt are you sure?

I think hardmode has more bosses than normal mode and at least as many equipment tiers.

Rainbolt

It does, but I remember steamrolling through bosses after entering hard mode because we all knew what we were doing at that point

In other words, do the thing, enter hard mode, do the thing again much faster.

Martin Büttner

9:45 PM

hm okay... I only read that hardmode was harder by a ridiculous amount so that it's basically like starting from scratch... but maybe it's easier in multiplayer mode.

Rainbolt

Oh it was. We died a lot

We hardly ever died in easy mode

And it wasn't the hardmode bosses that killed us either

It was the normal mobs

durron597

Note to self: if I play Terraria, don't bullrush to hard mode

Rainbolt

I think there is one sword we didn't get because it required a super rare drop from a mob that only ever spawned during a rare event.

And it required multiples too

And you can bullrush to hard mode once you know what you are doing. It's kind of fun on the second playthrough to just dig straight down to hell, get a doll, build a really long path, fight the wall, enter hard mode, and then struggle to survive in hard mode.

First playthrough it makes sense to follow the progression that is set for you

Martin Büttner

is there something between "connected graph" and "weakly connected graph" for directed graphs, which means that for each pair of vertices u and v, there is a path from u to v or a path from v to u? (or both)

ah, found something else I can use

Rainbolt

10:03 PM

What is a weakly connected graph?

I don't really understand the definition on Wikipedia, because it sounds exactly like what you just said and you seem to think that it isn't that.

Martin Büttner

weakly connected is if there is a series of edges between them, not necessarily a path

so a -> b <- c is weakly connected, although there is no path between a and c

I want that to be false, but a -> b -> c to be true.

Rainbolt

Oh, ok.

Ohhhh I was thinking the whole time that u and v were adjacent

Martin Büttner

well I know one vertex a to check all others against, so I was able to use Mathematica's VertexOutComponent, which gives me all vertices that can be reached from a, and I just check that it includes all vertices in the graph.

@Optimizer I'm sure you can beat 345 ;)

Rainbolt

@Martin It's just called a connected directed graph

Martin Büttner

no that's when there's a path between all pairs of vertices in both directions.

Rainbolt

10:13 PM

I thought you said you only wanted one direction or the other

Or both, but not required

Martin Büttner

oh wait

apparently, what I thought was "connected" is "strongly connected"

so yes, you're right

Rainbolt

I had to stare at that Wikipedia paragraph for five minutes before I saw the sentence in the middle. And I bet what got you is what got me too

Martin Büttner

too bad, mathematica's ConnectedGraphQ checks for strong connectivity -.-

Rainbolt

It's the italics

Weakly connected and strongly connected are both italicized. "Connected" in the middle sentence isn't

Connectivity (graph theory)

In mathematics and computer science, connectivity is one of the basic concepts of graph theory: it asks for the minimum number of elements (nodes or edges) that need to be removed to disconnect the remaining nodes from each other. It is closely related to the theory of network flow problems. The connectivity of a graph is an important measure of its robustness as a network. == Connected graph == A graph is connected when there is a path between every pair of vertices. A graph that is not connected is disconnected. A graph with just one vertex is connected. An edgeless graph with two or m...

Third paragraph under Definitions of components, cuts and connectivity

Geobits

Shameless plug for network question: gaming.stackexchange.com/q/219113/63192

Martin Büttner

10:18 PM

@Geobits I posted something on arqade just a couple of hours ago

Rainbolt

Who could downvote a well-written question about a father playing a game with his son, with a list of prereqs and a link to gamefaqs showing that you have done research.

Martin Büttner

(to self-answer it though)

Rainbolt

Soon as I posted that I refreshed and DV is gone (or you got three upvotes?)

Geobits

@Rainbolt Obviously someone that hates children. Think of the children!