The Nineteenth Byte

Alex A.

12:56 AM

...And apparently the awkward silence continues.

Doorknob

1:09 AM

Hey anyone else remember when we had like 5 messages in here a day?

At least it's more active than that now.

Alex A.

I don't remember that because I only joined the fun in chat fairly recently.

nderscore

I popped in here months ago and from what I recall it seemed pretty dead

PhiNotPi

1:50 AM

I've been a site member since 2011, so yes.

Alex A.

2:04 AM

I think I've been active in chat only for like 6 months or so. Maybe more, I'm bad with time.

xnor

3:17 AM

@randomra I think you can do that shorter as m[p:p]=m.pop(p+1),

Optimizer

5:29 AM

Should I suggest CH that he puts image-processing to his latest question ?

Calvin's Hobbies

7:16 AM

@Optimizer To helix? Why?

nderscore

7:34 AM

I think ascii-art is enough. image-processing is better suited for raster/vector graphics

Optimizer

@Calvin'sHobbies conversation from this point and beyond

20 hours ago, by Optimizer

this is not image processing at all, right ?

Calvin's Hobbies

I have not read the whole conversation, but the challenge has nothing to do with images...

Optimizer

yes, and neither the question I asked about.

Calvin's Hobbies

Oh I see, yeah I'd call that q mistagged

Why fuss with asking permission when there are reverts :)

kolm-complexity is a finer line, not sure it should be on my recent ascii-arts

Optimizer

7:50 AM

There is no point in changing if a mod thinks otherwise.

and the OP also hasn't replied.

Calvin's Hobbies

8:01 AM

Well I disagree with Martin. Letting any grid based thing be called an image is way too purist.

Optimizer

true

Calvin's Hobbies

The meaning of "image" on PPCG should be the same as it is everywhere else on the internet.

@MartinBüttner pinging

Optimizer

the thing is that image on internet has a very vast meaning. The best we can do is to rely on this wikipedia article

Martin Büttner

8:36 AM

I don't remember saying anywhere that challenges with ASCII output should get the image processing tag... (And you know that...)

Martin Büttner

9:02 AM

@Calvin'sHobbies So no, your challenge has nothing to do with image processing and I never claimed it would.

Optimizer

9:13 AM

yeah, but the input number can very well be read from an image. It can be encoded as height of the image, or width of the image

similar to the grid in the cube folding challenge which can be taken as an image

Calvin's Hobbies

@MartinBüttner I know, I just don't think image-processing was correct for codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/49663/…

Martin Büttner

@Optimizer yeah sure, seems like a reasonable comparison.

@Calvin'sHobbies Where is the difference between reading that as ASCII input and reading that as an image where each of the four different characters corresponds to a different greyscale value?

If I choose an input format like PPM, I can convert between the two formats in something like 5 bytes in CJam, which makes the exact input format entirely irrelevant to the type of challenge.

Optimizer

if the question has done that, then yes, its image-processing. It might be 5 bytes in CJam, doesn't mean that its not processing in image. But the question in context (and others linked by Sp3000) do not.

They had normal ASCII input, in some cases, no input at all.

Martin Büttner

if they have no input at all, they're not image processing.

Optimizer

why ? its same as parsing a white image

or bunch of 0 in ppm format

Martin Büttner

9:23 AM

yeah I don't think there's any point arguing if you just take anything I say ad absurdum instead of using some common sense

Optimizer

I don't thing that calling a challenge that takes ASCII as input an image-processing challenge, just because it could have taken in an image of similar properties is common sense either

Martin Büttner

no, but because ASCII art is an image

by what definition of the word "image" is this not an image?

Optimizer

that is an image of an ascii representation of an image

so yes, its an image

Martin Büttner

-.-

I'm not gonna type it all up so I can link you to a pastebin of the same thing.

Optimizer

as I linked earlier, we need to scope images by this article

Martin Büttner

9:26 AM

@Optimizer I don't think it's called image-file-processing

Optimizer

No idea why you bring that up

Martin Büttner

because you're arguing that "image == image file"

Calvin's Hobbies

@MartinBüttner No difference of course fundamentally. Just "image" should mean "that thing we use to on the internet to display visual data at the pixel level that comes in a number of common file formats".

Optimizer

no i am not

Calvin's Hobbies

I am (more or less)

Martin Büttner

9:27 AM

while the wikipedia article on "image processing" (which you linked yesterday) explicitly said that "image" in the context of "image processing" is meant in a broader sense.

Optimizer

okay, food for thought. If I have a challenge that has a requirement of image file as an output (in any standard image format). But the output is simply a screenshot of an ascii sun (from CH challenge)

does that become an ASCII ART challenge ?

the input is an integer

Martin Büttner

@Optimizer yep

a) it's definitely a challenge about ascii art. b) I actually need to generate the same data as for a pure ASCII output challenge before/while turning it into an image file.

Optimizer

so if I have an output of a string, then its a string challenge ?

Martin Büttner

@Optimizer by your line of argument, yes

Optimizer

its your line of argument

Martin Büttner

9:30 AM

(by mine, no)

what?

Optimizer

I am totally against it.

Martin Büttner

you're saying something like "the tag should only depend on the exact type of the input/output, not its content"

Optimizer

@MartinBüttner not all tags, but yes, IP and AI

Martin Büttner

okay, at least we agree that it's your line of argument that's inconsistent then.

Optimizer

@MartinBüttner you can never have a consistent rule for all the tags.

Martin Büttner

9:32 AM

then why bring it up?

Optimizer

some tags do not even depend on input/output

like code-golf, pop-con

Martin Büttner

...

Optimizer

I am not bringing anything up. Just expanding your analogy of the very fine line between ascii-art and image-processing.

(or no line at all)

Martin Büttner

your expanding your own analogy

my analogy is: does the program take a string representing an array? sure, it's array-manipulation. doe the program take a string representing an image? sure, it's image-processing.

Optimizer

there is no point in discussion if you are just going to point false fingers

Martin Büttner

9:35 AM

well then maybe I don't understand your point, but I don't see what your stance on string has to do with your stance on image-processing

Optimizer

"a string representation of an image" - This is where you are mixing everything up.

Calvin's Hobbies

@MartinBüttner I think we have different opinions on what "image" means in that tag contest. I'd vote for the image file sense, as that's more familiar to everyone and almost always applicable. But I get your point that "image" can mean something more abstract.

Optimizer

reading ppm file format and reading an ASCII grid are two very different things

Martin Büttner

@Calvin'sHobbies well that was my point earlier. it's not image-file-processing

but I think that "image" is a much more general (and older) term than "image file" and I don't see why the former should imply the latter in any case.

and I'm not sure why @Optimizer has trouble separating these two concepts.

if you can get a community consensus on meta that "image" == "image file" around here, I'm good with that. but it seems like a rather strong assumption otherwise.

Calvin's Hobbies

@MartinBüttner Sure, but "image" can be synonymous with "image file", and folks online may normally see it that way. A post with no image mentioned that is tagged image-processing can confuse people (the tag wiki in fact mentions files).

Martin Büttner

9:42 AM

@Calvin'sHobbies Well I think then it's the tag wiki that needs fixing. ;)

Calvin's Hobbies

All in all it's a subtle distinction that rarely comes up and I'm not too concerned either way and don't think it's worth debating too much :P

Woo 1 more gold!

Martin Büttner

Anyway, I'm not sure why we need to have a heated debate about this. None of our individual opinions is relevant to policy, so if we want to fix it either way, we'd need to take it to meta.

Calvin's Hobbies

Agreed

Martin Büttner

@Calvin'sHobbies congrats :)

Optimizer

@Calvin'sHobbies Woo 1 more ... bronze .. :(

Calvin's Hobbies

10:01 AM

@Optimizer Just write a cutsie sensationalist question once in a while ;) (Though I really do hope and think those cutsie questions encourage new young programmers, which is worth the sensationalism.)

Optimizer

I am not really a question asker ..

Calvin's Hobbies

Case in point: Cutsie

Optimizer

on top of that, I suddenly become supe rlazy whenever i thin ko fwriting a challenge

@Calvin'sHobbies that was just because it was the hot topic of the time

your snowman was off-season, but still became popular.

Martin Büttner

@Optimizer:

" O
/ \
\ /"N/

Optimizer

how do I reuse the first " O " ?

Martin Büttner

10:04 AM

oh wait, it's in a separate array

crap

Optimizer

yeah :(

Calvin's Hobbies

@Optimizer But surely plain ascii-arts like the helix/sun/very simple triangles are easy to write. I get way more rep that I deserve for some of those.

Martin Büttner

meh, with (\ it's the same bytes

Optimizer

why is that ^ not codified ?

Martin Büttner

backslash fail

Optimizer

10:06 AM

still not

I am amazed how the ^ pointer was right on mark

Calvin's Hobbies

Can you guys take a look at this? Does the game area fit well in your monitor? Do the colors have enough contrast? (You can change scale/colors at bottom.)

Martin Büttner

yes it fits well on my monitor, but I'm on 2560x1440 so I'm not sure how representative that is :P

Optimizer

yellow is a bit dull

and it fits on a ok screensize too

Martin Büttner

"large" perfectly fills my monitor

the pastel colours are nice

Optimizer

yeah, was gonna say the exact above two lines

Calvin's Hobbies

10:10 AM

@MartinBüttner Me too, the OS/browser (I forget which) magnifies things so I'm not sure how they look on a smaller monitor

@Optimizer The yellow diamond thing? It has alpha 0.5 so it's kinda intended

Optimizer

@Calvin'sHobbies yeah, in the default colors. In pastel, it looks good

isaacg

Looks good.

Calvin's Hobbies

If someone wants to make a color scheme, I may be willing to add it :P

This is the normal scheme js:

{AIR: '#ccc', WALL: '#666', GOAL: 'rgba(255,255,0,0.5)', BG: '#f4f4f4', P1: '#00f', P1_TEXT: '#008', P1_LOS: 'rgba(0,0,255,0.1)', P2: '#f00', P2_TEXT: '#800', P2_LOS: 'rgba(255,0,0,0.1)'}

Martin Büttner

off to kuler

Calvin's Hobbies

fyi the normal text is always black and I don't really want to bother changing that

New Meta Posts

10:38 AM

0

Q: A work in progress answer, kept deleted until it's done

Is this allowed? It's handy, working in JavaScript, using the snippet window for development. Updating the (deleted) answer gived source control functionality for free. On the other hand, that can be annoying for users tbat see also the deleted answers.

discussion

Calvin's Hobbies

10:48 AM

Is there a unicode symbol for dna/double helix? I looked a bit and couldn't find one, but I feel like there must be.

Optimizer

what should it even look like ?

@Doorknob 2 of which were by sandbox ? :P

Calvin's Hobbies

I'd imagine something like this but horizontal

They've got some weird stuff: 👯

Optimizer

11:10 AM

I am amazed by the detail of this girl.

1600% zoom

me too:

Non-Windows ?

win7

11:26 AM

me too. weird.

maybe you don't deserve a girl ? :P

Doorknob

@Optimizer Haha, this was even before we had any feeds at all in chat.

rcrmn

I have two girls in chrome for mac

Calvin's Hobbies

Amazingly they have festivus. But it's a muscly arm for me, not sure why - 💪

randomra

Couldn't fix it quickly. Seems like getting a girl takes more than a couple of minutes.

Optimizer

@rcrmn lucky guy

but I am happy with one cutsie :D

randomra

11:36 AM

8

Q: Emoji characters not displaying correctly on Windows 7

Is there a specific font or something I need to install/download/configure in order to see emoji characters? Emoji are picture characters/emoticons often used in Japanese webpages and messages. People can post these from their phones to a site like Twitter, but when I try to read them on my PC...

windows-7 fonts emoticons

Calvin's Hobbies

There's a pole when you google festivus!

Optimizer

lol

what does it signify?

Calvin's Hobbies

11:54 AM

Simplicity? It's all a joke from seinfield.

Optimizer

oh.

Optimizer

12:56 PM

wow, somehow reduced 1 byte from double helix

53 now. but looks impossible for 51

Optimizer

1:16 PM

hahahaha, 32 for integer marks grades! Pyth will be crying right now

randomra

@xnor Thanks, that's great. I haven't expected pop() to take a parameter. I also thought that an assignment to a slice should have the same number of elements as the slice. I learned a lot! :)

Optimizer

1:34 PM

shortest way to get 0 from 0 but 1 from anything else in CJam ?

randomra

don't know CJam, but sqr(signum(x)) should be pretty short

Optimizer

nope, !! is shorter

I want in 1 byte

randomra

@Optimizer well, that's not a big search-space

how is 5^2 in cjam, I thought 52# is that?

Optimizer

52 is 52

not 5 2

5Y should work for you

randomra

then I can do gY#(even though it's not competitive :)) also g_*

Sp3000

1:42 PM

1 byte sounds pretty impossible :P

Optimizer

or abs(signum())

gz

randomra

and gz for 2

Optimizer

:P

randomra

won't delete, I'm proud :)

Sp3000

Trying to see if I can Optimizer's working with {z}& but man stack manipulation is annoying

Eh I give up

Rainbolt

1:53 PM

Do we have a working definition for "natural numbers"?

I.e. does it include zero?

Natural number

In mathematics, the natural numbers (sometimes called the whole numbers) are those used for counting (as in "there are six coins on the table") and ordering (as in "this is the third largest city in the country"). In common language, words used for counting are "cardinal numbers" and words used for ordering are "ordinal numbers". Another use of natural numbers is for what linguists call nominal numbers, such as the model number of a product, where the "natural number" is used only for naming (as distinct from a serial number where the order properties of the natural numbers distinguish later uses...

Runer112

I've been busy lately so I missed a bunch of stuff, so I went around upvoting the nice questions and answers I missed

figured I'd try to get vox populi (again), and once again I'm stuck at 38/40

what am I doing wrong here

Sp3000

@Rainbolt Congratulations, you've asked a question which mathematicians still can't agree on an answer to

2

Rainbolt

Well yea, that's what Wikipedia says

I'll take that as a no. I'm just going to pick a definition and edit this question

Sp3000

Which question is this from?

Rainbolt

0

Q: Algorithm speed problem

I've got a good-old one. Given n natural numbers, find the smallest natural number that can be obtained by additions and substractions between the numbers in the fastest way possible. For example: input: n=5 14 16 20 10 2 output: 2 (16+14-20-10+2=2)

fastest-algorithm

I'm in the middle of editing

Adding more examples, adding his comments to the question

Fixing natural numbers

Sp3000

1:57 PM

Probably better to leave a comment for clarification

Rainbolt

Fixing the title because it's basically a tag

Well, since it's a big o problem it doesn't really matter. He just needs to pick one

It wouldn't increase complexity to check for zero vs one

Sp3000

It could matter for the correctness of an answer, if somebody assumed something

Title does need fixing though

Rainbolt

there are zero answers

Can't invalidate nothing (intended double negative)

Can you see I am afraid of sounding like a normal Texan?

Sp3000

shrugs

Rainbolt

This question just got a makeover, for anyone who wants to give it another look.

I'm surprised it isn't a duplicate (yet)

Why did I address a comment to Bryan when there is no Bryan on that question

Optimizer

2:12 PM

because Brain

Rainbolt

My cousin's name is Bryan, and his screenname is Brainbolt

Optimizer

Do you have a cousin named Derrin ?

Rainbolt

I got a J. Jrainbolt just doesn't sound very nice.

Optimizer

(Drainbolt)

Rainbolt

Jrainbolt is pronounced like Drainbolt yes?

Optimizer

2:14 PM

is it ?

Rainbolt

On my tongue, yes

randomra

@Rainbolt worth noting that you have to use all numbers

Optimizer

wow, so many nice ones. Grainbolt, Sprainbolt, Trainbolt

Rainbolt

Brainbolt just has that added consonance

I like trainbolt too, for the same reason

@randomra All numbers for what?

Oh, the challenge. I'll edit unless you already started

randomra

@Rainbolt I haven't edited

Rainbolt

2:18 PM

Done

I'll name my kid Terra

So he/she can be Terrainbolt

Or Ingress (Ingrainbolt)

Optimizer

Name your kid Thunder

Rainbolt

Thunder Rainbolt?

Optimizer

ohh forgot

I thought just the bolt is the last name

Rainbolt

I would be much happier if that were true. Can you even imagine how many times I got called John Rainbow growing up?

Geobits

New nickname alert :D (well, not new...)

Rainbolt

2:24 PM

John Bolt has a nice, sharp ring to it

I miss the one I got as a freshman in highschool. First day, in the room with all the varsity guys, the varsity coach is calling roll and he says Rainbuhh... Rainbow? Rainbolt? Hey Rainbolt, where are you? Chief Rainbolt? Are you native american or something?

So my name for Soccer was Chief.

All the other freshman that got nicknames did not get good ones

Geobits

Nice. I have a one-syllable common verb for a last name, so nobody could ever screw it up into a nickname.

Optimizer

bite ?

Geo Bites ?

Geobits

No, that would have been easy nickname fodder :D

nderscore

2:42 PM

Why do people keep upvoting my solution when there's a better JS solution further down? Because StackExchangers are biased towards answers with a high score and are too lazy to scroll.

Geobits

If it makes you feel better, I'll promise not to upvote your answer ;)

Holy crap @martin when did your vote count get so high? I swear it wasn't 4000+ last I looked.

Optimizer

3:08 PM

how do you check that ?

Geobits

It's on the user profile, activity tab. Scroll down.

Or you can look at the top-list here.

rcrmn

3:37 PM

So many downvotes, @Geobits

Optimizer

wow. Peter down votes more than he up votes

rcrmn

So does Geobits

Optimizer

look at w0lf

why hasn't been Peter banned as a serial downvoter ? :P

Geobits

@rcrmn I don't try to keep this secret:

rcrmn

Wow I hadn't realized lol

What a hater

Optimizer

3:41 PM

@rcrmn this line goes very nicely with your meme

Geobits

@rcrmn Yea but I also have many more upvotes than you have total votes ;)

I can't help it if people answer questions with code that just doesn't work at all. That's a large portion of my DVs.

rcrmn

@Optimizer What do you mean?

Optimizer

do you not know that your profile pic is from a meme ?

rcrmn

Is it? from which one?

Optimizer

"I don't want to live on this planet anymore"

rcrmn

3:45 PM

Oh but it's not

Optimizer

no?

Geobits

I haven't seen that meme with this image.

Optimizer

oh, thats a different similar shaped guy

rcrmn

If you look closely it's an avatar made in the simpsons movie webpage

web.archive.org/web/20110409112029/http://www.simpsonsmovie.com/…

It looks somewhat like me, although with some kind of liver problem I guess

Optimizer

anyone knows some site where i can see gross revenue of a movie over time ?

wikipedia should have that data. No idea if it exposes it

randomra

4:05 PM

1

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Is This a Real Tree? code-golf ascii-art graph You should write a program or function which receives a string as input and outputs or returns if the input is an ascii tree. _ \/ / \_/ | | Ascii trees consist of characters / \ | _ spaces and newlines. The non-whitespace characters co...

any comments before posting?

Optimizer

Don't defy nature ?

randomra

@Optimizer I will post a challenge "Could this be a tree" where you have to output constant True

Optimizer

I think you read wrongly

Finally! 52 bytes for double helix

Optimizer

4:30 PM

@randomra maybe, "Is this a real ASCII tree" ? :P

randomra

@Optimizer you are very focused on this issue

Optimizer

:D

writes an always false returning program

0

Geobits

Llamas sometimes eat tree foliage in the wild. I can see why he'd take an interest.

randomra

so that's why he wants downward growing branches

Optimizer

@randomra llamas are tall enough

Geobits

4:34 PM

Give them a few million years and they'll be all giraffed out.

Optimizer

you just took away the tree status from all matured banyan trees

Geobits

Lots of willows, too.

Optimizer

mangroves too

where will mongoose live now ?

Geobits

Hmm, even some of the big oaks here have downward branches (good for climbing).

To be clear, I think the challenge is fine ;)

Optimizer

I've also seen palms with downward branches

Geobits

4:37 PM

My palms are face down right now.

Optimizer

I think your life motto is down only

votes, palms, profile pic

Geobits

I'm an optimistic cynic.

Most things eventually turn out okay despite people sucking in general.

Optimizer

0 -> -1, rest -> 0 in less than 3 bytes ?

randomra

5:04 PM

you should have a bruteforcing snippet

Optimizer

cjam is not exception safe

randomra

too bad, can be useful sometimes

randomra

5:21 PM

you can still build a wrapper for it in any other language

Martin Büttner

@Geobits It's always been quite high. I'm sure I was on top of the voters leaderboard before I was on top of the rep leaderboard. I do vote a lot. ;)

Martin Büttner

5:37 PM

@Runer112 upvote two more questions. you can only cast 30 votes per day on answers. so I guess you're at 30 answers and 8 questions and tried to vote on another answer.

Runer112

same message on answers

Martin Büttner

@Optimizer wikipedia has data it doesn't expose?

@Runer112 that's odd.

Runer112

I guess the badge is basically unobtainable then :p

Optimizer

@MartinBüttner as an API. pretty sure it has data on each movie's box office revenue per week (or even granular)

weird

Martin Büttner

there is a page with lists of highest grossing films ever

otherwise I'd rather expect imdb to have that data

Optimizer

5:46 PM

I think you are not understanding what I want

Martin Büttner

@Runer112 try unupvoting an answer and then upvote two questions.

@Optimizer I rarely do ;)

Optimizer

nooo, you are becoming Rainbolt

anyways, what part of "box office revenue of a movie per week" is not clear?

Runer112

no permutation of upvoting questions and answers seems to get any of them through

Martin Büttner

@Optimizer overlooked the "over time" part.

but still, what about imdb?

Optimizer

it has ?

Geobits

5:48 PM

Originally you just said "gross revenue", which seems different than box office revenue. Voting to close as unclear.

Optimizer

let me see

Martin Büttner

@Runer112 "unupvote"

Runer112

oh

I see

Optimizer

@Geobits anything is fine for me. upto the user

Runer112

I'm guessing all my upvotes are locked by now, though

Martin Büttner

5:49 PM

@Runer112 if you've upvoted active stuff, someone will surely edit

Geobits

@Runer112 Once you get the "N votes remaining", you can't go on a question voting spree: meta.stackexchange.com/a/5213/212780

Optimizer

imdb does not have official api. OMDB is there though

Geobits

> 5 post votes after you got your first "5 votes remaining" warning of the day. If you reach 25 answer votes at time t of the day, given q(t) as the number of question votes cast by time t, the total post votes limit will be no more than 30 + q(t). If you cast less than 25 answer votes, ignore this point.

(which makes no sense to me, but there it is)

Runer112

so

the last 5 votes all have to be answers?

Geobits

To be sure to get the vox populi, vote 10 questions first, then answers. It's dumb.

Runer112

5:51 PM

that is dumb

guess I can try it next time I've been away from the site for a week or so

Optimizer

imdb has even less info than wiki